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Sslimey Sslyth






Busy somewhere, airin' out the skin jobs.

fullheadofhair wrote:

And as to Deadshane - drank a bit too deeply out of the fountain of self righeousness this morning?



I could ask the same question of the people critisizing Nova's decisions concerning this issue.

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Deadshane1 wrote:
fullheadofhair wrote:

And as to Deadshane - drank a bit too deeply out of the fountain of self righeousness this morning?



I could ask the same question of the people critisizing Nova's decisions concerning this issue.


You could try but there is a smidgen of a difference between trying to be political correct over the term "16 year old kid" and people trying to understand why an illegal list was allowed to stand.

In all this thread, I still don't get why an illegal list was allowed to be played and win without any penalty. I am just so darn curious as to the logic behind that decision. I have a nasty suspicion that if Stelek or one of the wrecking crew had done this accidently the world would not be so forgiving - particular with the large amount of unnecessary hate aimed at both in the past.

edit to finish a thought

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/09/04 23:47:52


2014 will be the year of zero GW purchases. Kneadite instead of GS, no paints or models. 2014 will be the year I finally make the move to military models and away from miniature games. 
   
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If Stelek or one of us WC guys had gone over I'm sure the world WOULDNT be as forgiving.

Stelek is WELL known in the internet community and us WC guys have a bit of a rep in the tourney scene. Due to that we'd be held to a higher standard I'm sure. Probably by judges as well. Is that right? I dunno, dont really care, I've never had a problem with bringing the right amount of points to a tourney due to all the playtesting I do and repeat building to get the most out of my list.

I do know that this player beat everybody down....3 extra points dont tip the scales THAT much in ones favor so that you can BEAT personalities like Stelek or any other players he faced down on Sunday. Players of that calibre dont lose games due to a 3pt differential....normally, they whip your a$$ so soundly it wouldnt matter if you had another 50-100pts in your list.

This player proved himself...regardless of a 3pt mistake...and like I said, this isnt PGA or the NFL. It's a hobby. Tournaments are simply the peak of the hobby...but still the hobby.

He deserved the win. Thats MY opinion.

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Deadshane1 wrote:If Stelek or one of us WC guys had gone over I'm sure the world WOULDNT be as forgiving.

Stelek is WELL known in the internet community and us WC guys have a bit of a rep in the tourney scene. Due to that we'd be held to a higher standard I'm sure. Probably by judges as well. Is that right? I dunno, dont really care, I've never had a problem with bringing the right amount of points to a tourney due to all the playtesting I do and repeat building to get the most out of my list.

I do know that this player beat everybody down....3 extra points dont tip the scales THAT much in ones favor so that you can BEAT personalities like Stelek or any other players he faced down on Sunday. Players of that calibre dont lose games due to a 3pt differential....normally, they whip your a$$ so soundly it wouldnt matter if you had another 50-100pts in your list.

This player proved himself...regardless of a 3pt mistake...and like I said, this isnt PGA or the NFL. It's a hobby. Tournaments are simply the peak of the hobby...but still the hobby.

He deserved the win. Thats MY opinion.


Thank you. I think it has been said earlier but not quite so bluntly. That I can understand and it makes some degree of sense - not entirely sure I agree but it does make sense. I shall make sure I have an extra 100 points in my bag should I ever stand opposite Stelek to avoid too bad a seal clubbing.

Funny how such a hobby orientated reasoning to this comes from someone often tagged as a WAAC ruiner of the hobby.

2014 will be the year of zero GW purchases. Kneadite instead of GS, no paints or models. 2014 will be the year I finally make the move to military models and away from miniature games. 
   
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fullheadofhair wrote:

Funny how such a hobby orientated reasoning to this comes from someone often tagged as a WAAC ruiner of the hobby.


Isnt it though?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/05 00:28:31


I have never failed to seize on 4+ in my life!

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Missouri

I am just so darn curious as to the logic behind that decision


Speaking of curious logic, how is it some people are totally okay with wacky missions, sports/comp scoring, or house FAQs (like the INAT) which make major, unnecessary revisions to the rules under the guise of "clarifications", but try to make a big deal over a list being 3 points over? I'd care to wager the former has a much larger negative impact on the game, but people only seem to give a gak about the latter.

It seems like playing by the rules is only important if it's a rule you agree with.



In any case, I'm not trying to say that it was "okay" for Tony to take an illegal list and win with it. But the issue was dealt with, and in a manner which apparently satisfied the other attendees, by all rights it's over and done now. The only people complaining are people who didn't even show up, and you know what that means...if you weren't there, you have no say.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/05 00:36:16


 Desubot wrote:
Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.


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Deadshane1 wrote:
fullheadofhair wrote:

Funny how such a hobby orientated reasoning to this comes from someone often tagged as a WAAC ruiner of the hobby.


Isnt it though?


That was actually meant as a compliment and also meant as a poke at the way that stupid WAAC term is throw at competitive people who just view the same game for a different perspective. Just clarifying, as when I reread what I wrote I realized it didn't sound the way it was meant - it was meant to be a lot nicer.


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The Battle Barge Buffet Line

it's not just the fact that he was allowed to keep the prize/win on his record. it's the fact that it wasn't made known to the general public until asked about here. the only acknowledgement (prior to this thread and its "drama") by the TO was in the comments section of a blog entry in he acknowledged the overage and said "sorry, my bad" with no details as to how it was handled.

nothing in the dozens of posts here by the TO since the event mentioning it... even in the thread talking about how to avoid this very problem...
nothing in the way of an article on the "official" blog for the event...
nothing in the glowing review by danny internets (who knew) of the event he's championing as the perfect competitive format... despite an illegal winner.

the only person who wrote an article about it was on blood of kittens and he's also asking, "why isn't anyone talking about it?". the answer is because it was a concerted effort to not publicize it to the unwashed masses. it was discussed among the finalists and his opponents and a few select others and then just forgotten about. it was said that they didn't want to tarnish the winner's good name and drag him through the mud... how do you think it looks when this news does break (weeks later) and there was no official comment from the "gold standard" competitive tournament despite them knowing about it and having it "taken care of". then, after taking care of it privately, the TO claims that they didn't try to hide it; you can't have your cake and eat it too. christ, its a toy soldier tournament and not the CIA or the mafia. you don't need to take care of your own without outside involvement; it just looks bad when you do. only after the "drama queens" raise the issue here do we find out that the winner recognized the mistake, offered to renounce his win and give up his golden ticket, and the other finalists passed. and we all have dashofpepper to thank for this. if it wasn't his offhand comments about the winner being 3pts over in a different thread and not being happy it (and then switching to being fine with the results here in this thread), we wouldn't know about this. (p.s. dash, did you work in military intelligence in the army? some fine CIA-esque work there, btw.)

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Sidstyler wrote:


It seems like playing by the rules is only important if it's a rule you agree with.


That doesn't make sense. If the rules agreed upon are the INAT faq then them be da rules for the tournie. They apply to everyone 100%. As long as a rule set is agreed upon then surely those are the rules. If you are unfortunate enough for them to be the INAT rules they still have to be followed. Same goes for house rules. Whether or not the interpretations are correct is irrelevent regardless of how annoying you think they are - you play 100% by the agreed rule set for the tournie and they apply to everyone.

In any case, I'm not trying to say that it was "okay" for Tony to take an illegal list and win with it. But the issue was dealt with, and in a manner which apparently satisfied the other attendees, by all rights it's over and done now. The only people complaining are people who didn't even show up, and you know what that means...if you weren't there, you have no say.


Nope. As I said before, other attendees opinions are also as worthless in this as mine. It is the rules that count and as I said before if it was Stelek or Wrecking Crew then the hate would have been unending. That is why attendees views are worthless and you stick with the rules - stops the decision being open to complaints of person A is more popular than person B and therefore was treated differently.

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fullheadofhair wrote:
Deadshane1 wrote:
fullheadofhair wrote:

Funny how such a hobby orientated reasoning to this comes from someone often tagged as a WAAC ruiner of the hobby.


Isnt it though?


That was actually meant as a compliment and also meant as a poke at the way that stupid WAAC term is throw at competitive people who just view the same game for a different perspective. Just clarifying, as when I reread what I wrote I realized it didn't sound the way it was meant - it was meant to be a lot nicer.



Don't misunderstand me either...thats how I took it.

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Steelcity

I'm sure that extra storm bolter caused a huge swing in the results of the game

I imagine it would be much more of a hassle to redo *all*the results due to the guy being DQ'd for every round over 3 points.. instead of just talking to each person and figuring out if a storm bolter was powerful enough to rewrite history

Is being 3 points over a bad thing? Sure it is because it breaks the rules.. but sometimes the punishment isnt in the best interest of the society. As said, if you werent even there then why cry about it if the people who WERE there dont mind the outcome

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Kirasu wrote:
Is being 3 points over a bad thing? Sure it is because it breaks the rules.. but sometimes the punishment isnt in the best interest of the society. As said, if you werent even there then why cry about it if the people who WERE there dont mind the outcome


Because self-appointed champions of the event are telling us it is the most competitive 'gold standard' of tourneys and 'gods gift to 40k'. And the correct way to handle this issue in a competitive environment is to DQ the player REGARDLESS of extenuating circumstances. If this event was a regular old tourney that was just run to have a good time then I doubt people would care. Go check out the 'ardboy thread. People have the expectation based upon how 'ardboyz is advertised that it is a highly competitive event and lists over the point value are DQed.

I assume NOVA wants to grow, and I assume NOVA is still accepting feedback to improve. I think all people are saying is that the event should have a pre-established standard of illegal=DQ regardless if people minds, or if it impacts games. Because having a wishy washy standard means it will never be applied equally which in turn means it can never be fairly applied. If Stelek had 3 points over people *WOULD* have minded, they would want him DQ and they wouldn't be objective if the games were close and if it mattered. And frankly no one should have been put int he position to rationalize away anything.

I don't think there is any point to attempt to re-DQ Tony... And Tony is an amazing player and did the right thing which shows he is an excellent sport. But I do think Mike should never be in this position again and he should add 'instant DQ' to his format for illegal lists. I feel like it is expected by many peopel who see this as a competitive designed event and it is the only fair ruling that has no favoritism or cronyism possible in it.

Personally this won't impact my decision to attend NOVA next year... I wanted to this year but had a wedding. I am a DC person so NOVA is my back yard. But I disagree with all this 'You complain you must hate NOVA! MUST DEFEND THE GOLD STANDARD!" People can legitimately disagree with how Mike handled it and want it changed for next year without saying the whole event is garbage, in fact most people have only discussed the scoring and the decision and are not saying the event was bad or poorly run or anything.

Many of the same people who gak bricks over the 4 missile launcher issue are giving a total collective pass to this and the only difference I see is people LIKE Tony and feel he is honest. That's great in a hobby event, and irrelevant in a competitive environment. I Highly recommend people read the PGA article as it is an uncanny fit of the exact specifics of this event and situation. If we have to live through a year of talking heads telling us NOVA is competitive 40k, then I think it is reasonable for people to give the feedback that they want 'ardboy standards for list DQing.

I am unsure why some are so angry to have feedback from differing points of view... Very odd to me. Are these people against any form of Instant DQing of lists in general? Personally, that is something I think most people seem to expect and assume is already in place at most events.

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Funny. Not what I get from it. From what I have read in this and others comments in different threads and forums is many people seemed to really enjoy the tournie and the format and even those who didn't go like the idea. I do. Criticism at one particular issue doesn't mean criticism at the whole point - that's politics and not debating. However, with this many people reading it there are always going to be people who dislike the format.


Might want to read a little harder next time then. My comments towards generalgrog have to do with generalgrog's statement and not what is said by countless others on countless other forums.

By far the funiest thing for me in this thread is the fact that so-called hard core tournie WAAC players (btw, I do not agree with that label) are the forgiving ones.


And thus you come upon the watershed moment where you discover the difference between so-called "WAAC" players and genuinely competitive players. Read these if you're interested in learning more about the distinction:

The Competitive Gamer Part I
The Competitive Gamer Part II


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/05 16:32:18


 
   
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Danny Internets wrote:


By far the funiest thing for me in this thread is the fact that so-called hard core tournie WAAC players (btw, I do not agree with that label) are the forgiving ones.


And thus you come upon the watershed moment where you discover the difference between so-called "WAAC" players and genuinely competitive players. Read these if you're interested in learning more about the distinction:

The Competitive Gamer Part I
The Competitive Gamer Part II




You are actually preaching to the choir, even though a self-confessed "fluff bunnie" (got I hate that term as well)

See, the thing is I have never had a problem with "competitive" gamers providing I know what type of gamer and what type of game I am facing when I start a game and am allowed to adjust my list to avoid a seal clubbing. I am mainly a background player and will play with something so called "subpar" as it looks cool. I am more into painting than playing. But I have no issue facing a hardened tourie vet bring his toughest list as long as it is agreed before hand. If I go to a tournie you can bet I will be bring my hardest list and will do my best to seal club the person opposite me using every legal and envelope pushing tactic possible. The person opposite has spent good money and time coming to this event and if I, as a "fluff bunnie", don't step up to the challange I am wasting his time. Also, if I am going to step into that environment and not adapt the what the feth I am doing in it.

However, and this is a big however, I also expect the same level of respect from a "competitive" gamer that is playing a fun pick up game where the competitive element is substantially reduced and my list is rather pathetic and I am there just to chat and throw a few dice around. To get seal clubbed under those circumstances would piss me off.

WAAC is a stupid term and needs to be got rid of in relation to tournie/ competitive players as I believe it has a distinct accusation that the person is capable of cheating to win and that does not describe the average tournie/ competitive gamer at all. Maximizing a list for effectiveness and seal clubbing someone doesn't make you a WAAC - it means the other person wasn't good enough to win. It also needs to be stopped being used by people who play from one point of view and then disasterously try playing against others with a different approach and stupidly think the experience will be the same.

As I have said on this forum many times, the best games I have often had have been the down and out blood fests with one or two models left on the table or getting the occasional seal clubbing from some player who pulled a tactical trick out of his bag that totally outclassed me. Does that make him a "WAAC". No - he is just better than me.

I have met and played against a couple of genuine "WAAC" players - i.e they out of out cheated or adjusted the odds to give them benefits. Like the Iron Warriors player with a tournie list that set the board up prior to playing giving him long clear lines of fire and then invited a "fluff bunnie" WH crap list to play saying lets just leave the table as is. That is how I view WAAC and it probably isn't limited to just that part of their life.

2014 will be the year of zero GW purchases. Kneadite instead of GS, no paints or models. 2014 will be the year I finally make the move to military models and away from miniature games. 
   
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Dashofpepper wrote:
Mafty wrote:
Dashofpepper wrote:warboss....

You may have missed the part where all his prizes were offered up to the "potentially wronged" people, who declined them.


who specifically was offered his prizes in consolation? people running for first? people who played him at all?


You may wish to scroll up the page.



i scrolled up, saw nothing. wouldnt it have been easier to just say it instead.

   
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Mafty wrote:

i scrolled up, saw nothing. wouldnt it have been easier to just say it instead.


Then try page 5.

   
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Kirasu wrote:I'm sure that extra storm bolter caused a huge swing in the results of the game

I imagine it would be much more of a hassle to redo *all*the results due to the guy being DQ'd for every round over 3 points.. instead of just talking to each person and figuring out if a storm bolter was powerful enough to rewrite history

Is being 3 points over a bad thing? Sure it is because it breaks the rules.. but sometimes the punishment isnt in the best interest of the society. As said, if you werent even there then why cry about it if the people who WERE there dont mind the outcome


But because it might not have been an extra Storm Bolter. It could have been that extra model which if he didn't have he would have been 1988 rather then 2003. I think that's what people are moaning about.

At the end of the day, the TO has said it's his fault for not spotting this earlier and sorting it out and all of the guys opponents have said that they got thrashed and that they didn't mind him having the prize. This should really be the end of it and all the internet griping should be focused upon making the event better next year (like having lists in a few weeks before to stop this happening)

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Gaz Taylor wrote:
Kirasu wrote:I'm sure that extra storm bolter caused a huge swing in the results of the game

I imagine it would be much more of a hassle to redo *all*the results due to the guy being DQ'd for every round over 3 points.. instead of just talking to each person and figuring out if a storm bolter was powerful enough to rewrite history

Is being 3 points over a bad thing? Sure it is because it breaks the rules.. but sometimes the punishment isnt in the best interest of the society. As said, if you werent even there then why cry about it if the people who WERE there dont mind the outcome


But because it might not have been an extra Storm Bolter. It could have been that extra model which if he didn't have he would have been 1988 rather then 2003. I think that's what people are moaning about.

At the end of the day, the TO has said it's his fault for not spotting this earlier and sorting it out and all of the guys opponents have said that they got thrashed and that they didn't mind him having the prize. This should really be the end of it and all the internet griping should be focused upon making the event better next year (like having lists in a few weeks before to stop this happening)


[sarcasm] ...buh buh buh...that' would be a logistical NIGHTMARE. And the poor players--having to decide on a list a month ahead of time! [/sarcasm]

The U.S. competitive scene is still in its infancy, but within a year or two (and a few more of these F@#$^ups) most TOs will, no doubt, adopt pre-submission lists as is practiced in most of the rest of the world.

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3 points is 3 points and Tony despite being a nice guy broke the rules. We could be nice guys like Tony and drive over the speed limit by 1mph and didn’t notice only to be informed while getting a ticket rules are rules despite how stupid some of them can be to us.

It was discussed in length here http://bloodofkittens.com/2010/08/19/meat-for-meta-the-antidrama-of-novaopens-postmortem-cheating/

I noticed near the end where Bob makes his comments MVBrandt couldn't counter any of his points and mocked BoK as a “2tiny random site” despite giving alternative solutions to his event.

   
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Yawn............ Are all these people who weren't even there still whining and moaning? Geez people, get a grip. It's done, it's over with, Mike will do better next year.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/07 14:04:06


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olympia wrote:
Gaz Taylor wrote:
Kirasu wrote:I'm sure that extra storm bolter caused a huge swing in the results of the game

I imagine it would be much more of a hassle to redo *all*the results due to the guy being DQ'd for every round over 3 points.. instead of just talking to each person and figuring out if a storm bolter was powerful enough to rewrite history

Is being 3 points over a bad thing? Sure it is because it breaks the rules.. but sometimes the punishment isnt in the best interest of the society. As said, if you werent even there then why cry about it if the people who WERE there dont mind the outcome


But because it might not have been an extra Storm Bolter. It could have been that extra model which if he didn't have he would have been 1988 rather then 2003. I think that's what people are moaning about.

At the end of the day, the TO has said it's his fault for not spotting this earlier and sorting it out and all of the guys opponents have said that they got thrashed and that they didn't mind him having the prize. This should really be the end of it and all the internet griping should be focused upon making the event better next year (like having lists in a few weeks before to stop this happening)


[sarcasm] ...buh buh buh...that' would be a logistical NIGHTMARE. And the poor players--having to decide on a list a month ahead of time! [/sarcasm]

The U.S. competitive scene is still in its infancy, but within a year or two (and a few more of these F@#$^ups) most TOs will, no doubt, adopt pre-submission lists as is practiced in most of the rest of the world.

No its not in its infancy. Its just different.
   
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warboss wrote:
Dashofpepper wrote:warboss....

You may have missed the part where all his prizes were offered up to the "potentially wronged" people, who declined them.

*snip*

When two people get into an argument, a mediator gets involved and all parties (including everyone that the person argued with) leave satisfied.....bystanders screaming bloody murder who have no stake in the matter are just drama queens.


i didn't miss it; it was entered in AFTER i hit reply on my last response by MVBrandt but before i submitted (i was reading through the bald screaming blog for my quotes). as for the name calling at the end, you're hardly one to talk. you posted a "battle report" that was nothing but intentional drama on your part... and continued it on a blog... and continued to link it in your sig. if we're queens, you're the empress.

it seems like MVBrandt's decision is finalized to the argeement of the top players and in the end that's what matters most. that doesn't mean its still not an epic sportmanship fail on the part of the winner for simply not giving up the ticket in the first place publicly and a failing in the tourney organization to stop it in the first place and then not to address it publicly. does it seem like the event was still a success for those who attended? sure. does it have room for improvement? you bet.

Did you participate in the tournament? If so, were you in the running to win? If the answer to either is "NO" why, other than foaming at the mouth for no reason other than to hear your fingers type, do you care?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
generalgrog wrote:
RiTides wrote:It's a good idea, but sounds like it would be a logistical nightmare and/or take an army of volunteers to accomplish. I also think it was considered as an option beforehand, but they decided not to go with this approach.

Correct me if I'm wrong, here! Also, cheers for the well-reasoned and worded response.


I don't really think it would take that long. Lets say you had 120 entries. If you had 6 TO's, that's 20 lists each. Those could be reviewed over a few hours on a weekend or after work. The cost of printing the colored lists would be added to the tourney entry fee. The use of colored lists is to prevent the suggestion that some trickster could slip their own list in. Or by just using a custom tourney stamp on the list could prevent that as well.

If someone turns in an illegal list and it gets caught during the pre-screening process, the TO's would send it back for correction and if it is sent back with errors again.... than you start deducting points for each successive illegal list entry....or you just DQ them from participating in the tourney after so many attempts.

If an illegal list still makes it through after all of that...well then you start questioning attending that particular tourney in the first place.

GG



As a former tourney organizer, maybe others are more dedicated, but I'd have to say that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Deadshane1 wrote:Who cares?

It's a game.

It was 3 points.

It's not NASCAR, PGA, NFL, FBI, or BYOB....its toy friggin' soldiers.

Get over yourselves.

Also, can we stop referring to this player as "the Kid" , "the 16yo", "the black guy", or "the Jew"...he's a player, not an ism. Thank you, drive thru.

You guys are nutz.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Danny Internets wrote:
Just because some people criticize, and I believe deservedly so, doesn't automatically mean that it's internet drama.


It's internet drama because it exists *gasp* solely on the internet. Notice that none of the people who actually attended the event have voiced complaints on how the issue has been handled.


Exactly.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/09/07 19:13:27


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Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

Frazzled wrote:
Did you participate in the tournament? If so, were you in the running to win? If the answer to either is "NO" why, other than foaming at the mouth for no reason other than to hear your fingers type, do you care?


did it ever occur to you that i may be interested in attending it in the future and the inaugural event being won illegally and the official response being a collective shrug and "oops, my bad" isn't encouraging? since when does dakka require you to have a personal stake in something in order to comment? do you have to prove that you own a grey knight army to comment in a grey knight rumor thread? if you don't own one, why would you care other "than to hear your fingers type"? its a discussion board and i was discussing the event.

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The Great State of Texas

warboss wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Did you participate in the tournament? If so, were you in the running to win? If the answer to either is "NO" why, other than foaming at the mouth for no reason other than to hear your fingers type, do you care?


did it ever occur to you that i may be interested in attending it in the future and the inaugural event being won illegally and the official response being a collective shrug and "oops, my bad" isn't encouraging? since when does dakka require you to have a personal stake in something in order to comment? do you have to prove that you own a grey knight army to comment in a grey knight rumor thread? if you don't own one, why would you care other "than to hear your fingers type"? its a discussion board and i was discussing the event.


Translation: thats a no, I'm just whining.

In the words of the immortal bard: "less bark, more wag!"

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
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Sslimey Sslyth






Busy somewhere, airin' out the skin jobs.

Frazzled wrote:
warboss wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Did you participate in the tournament? If so, were you in the running to win? If the answer to either is "NO" why, other than foaming at the mouth for no reason other than to hear your fingers type, do you care?


did it ever occur to you that i may be interested in attending it in the future and the inaugural event being won illegally and the official response being a collective shrug and "oops, my bad" isn't encouraging? since when does dakka require you to have a personal stake in something in order to comment? do you have to prove that you own a grey knight army to comment in a grey knight rumor thread? if you don't own one, why would you care other "than to hear your fingers type"? its a discussion board and i was discussing the event.


Translation: thats a no, I'm just whining.

In the words of the immortal bard: "less bark, more wag!"





(I'll see your past comment and raise you one thumbsup!)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/07 20:06:00


I have never failed to seize on 4+ in my life!

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Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

I disagree that Warboss is whining. I think he has reasonable criticisms and IMO has kept them largely in an appropriate and constructive tone. Nkelsch & fullheadofhair have also been good. Others maybe not so much. But writing it all off as whining seems an unreasonable response.

Several fans of Mike's event (less so Mike himself, to his credit) have held it up as a paragon. As a near-perfect model for others to emulate. And that's cool. It's great to have something good and positive to talk about. But if you're going to exalt something, it's definitely worth being honest about any flaws, even if minor.

Given the zeal some competitive gamers have for bringing 40k "up" to the standards of professional sports or other more serious and codified competitive games (like Chess or Magic: tG), it does seem odd for them not to raise criticism of an issue like this one, which would be a big stinking deal in either Chess or Magic, and for which there would be a hard and fast rule. If the guys who attended the event haven't gotten Mike to state what the fix is for next year, I don't think it's out of line for prospective attendees to ask.

Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.

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The Great State of Texas

By its nature this can't be an issue in Chess.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree Raggie, and by that I mean "I'm right, you're wrong na na na!"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/07 20:30:46


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Mannahnin wrote:I disagree that Warboss is whining. I think he has reasonable criticisms and IMO has kept them largely in an appropriate and constructive tone. Nkelsch & fullheadofhair have also been good. Others maybe not so much. But writing it all off as whining seems an unreasonable response.

Several fans of Mike's event (less so Mike himself, to his credit) have held it up as a paragon. As a near-perfect model for others to emulate. And that's cool. It's great to have something good and positive to talk about. But if you're going to exalt something, it's definitely worth being honest about any flaws, even if minor.

Given the zeal some competitive gamers have for bringing 40k "up" to the standards of professional sports or other more serious and codified competitive games (like Chess or Magic: tG), it does seem odd for them not to raise criticism of an issue like this one, which would be a big stinking deal in either Chess or Magic, and for which there would be a hard and fast rule. If the guys who attended the event haven't gotten Mike to state what the fix is for next year, I don't think it's out of line for prospective attendees to ask.



I would simply ask that people acknowledge my direct commentary of a) my bad, b) here's my resolution and reasoning (like it or not, at least it's clearly present and well thought out), and c) we're working on a better approach to prevent this from happening next year.

Wallowing in it, especially if you were not there, is I think the thing that's annoying or frustrating some people. We'll certainly be releasing details about our process in the future, once we've finalized one we know is both feasible, executable, and functional. Do note we're shooting for a massive % increase in both event offerings and attendance, and are busy securing the support of major / well-known painters to be judges and seminar-givers, companies to be sponsors and even celebrity components of our events, yatta yatta.

All of the stuff going on is leading toward next year, and we'll release it as soon as we reasonably can - this will include our methods for addressing the things that were imperfect with the Open this year. Harping on it in the interim when any good point that can be made has been made is a little excessive, and is I think what is generating the hubbub.

I will reiterate - yes it was a problem, yes the event was a roaring good time and success in spite of its first year growing pains, yes we recognize it and are working to fix it in the future, and yes we'll make ALL components of our event superior in the future.

I can understand having continued discussion about, say, Kill Points vs. Victory Points, or other components of the event that are really debatable ... but there's no real debate to be had here.

I mean ... it was a 2,000 point tournament and while "arguably insignificant," it's irrelevant b/c Tony was at 2003. We didn't have a firm/fast ruling for managing it AFTER THE FACT (we actually had one for BEFORE / during the fact haha), didn't expect our QC staff to simply miss it during the QC (which we did have going on), and did our best to interact with the actual constituents and participants and solve it to the best of our ability AFTER THE FACT this year. Nobody would or really could argue that it was "legal," nor that we should do nothing to improve next year. Where's the reason for continuing it? You certainly don't have to impress upon me the need to improve ... that should be obviously from the fact that I've accepted blame and pronounced intention to improve basically everywhere I've posted.

If you don't like how I resolved it this year, I can understand stating that ... but can we calm? We're all in violent agreement with the error and the need to prevent it with an improved process in the future. We may not agree on the resolution, but any *POSITIVE* effect going forward that can be accomplished has been. Hence why there are some that think continued sniping is just that ... sniping.

Warboss, if you are serious about attending next year, perhaps you should highlight in a positive and constructive way what else would make the event wonderful for you ... unless the ONLY thing missing was a whiff on calculation of a 3 point overage on a single list. In which case ... well, hopefully my statement can help persuade you that I certainly acknowledge the error and we are working proactively to prevent it going forward. *shrug* What more is desired? Apologies, promises of improvement, acknowledgment of error ... all made. Repeatedly. Seriously.
   
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Manchester, NH

Thanks, Mike!

I, for one, appreciate all the hard work you've done. My own TO scars are only from local 1-day events, but I've done enough drinking and socializing with guys who run the big stuff (GW Balti, Adepticon, Mikhaila) to have a good feel for the sheer amount of blood, sweat, and tears involved. SO please take that sincerely as a big thumbs-up for your efforts and achievements so far.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/07 21:00:06


Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.

Maelstrom's Edge! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

MVBrandt wrote:I would simply ask that people acknowledge my direct commentary of a) my bad, b) here's my resolution and reasoning (like it or not, at least it's clearly present and well thought out), and c) we're working on a better approach to prevent this from happening next year.

Wallowing in it, especially if you were not there, is I think the thing that's annoying or frustrating some people. We'll certainly be releasing details about our process in the future, once we've finalized one we know is both feasible, executable, and functional. Do note we're shooting for a massive % increase in both event offerings and attendance, and are busy securing the support of major / well-known painters to be judges and seminar-givers, companies to be sponsors and even celebrity components of our events, yatta yatta.


that's all i can ask. as for wallowing in it, i last posted a grievance three days ago. i'm simply posting in here again to respond to frazzled's whining about whining. i was satisfied with the end result of the "drama" which you just stated. acknowledgement of the problem, disclosure of HOW it was handled (not just that it mysteriously was), and a plan to implement changes to prevent it. i'll repeat.. i'm satisfied.

MVBrandt wrote:
All of the stuff going on is leading toward next year, and we'll release it as soon as we reasonably can - this will include our methods for addressing the things that were imperfect with the Open this year. Harping on it in the interim when any good point that can be made has been made is a little excessive, and is I think what is generating the hubbub.

If you don't like how I resolved it this year, I can understand stating that ... but can we calm? We're all in violent agreement with the error and the need to prevent it with an improved process in the future. We may not agree on the resolution, but any *POSITIVE* effect going forward that can be accomplished has been. Hence why there are some that think continued sniping is just that ... sniping.


lol, what continued sniping? you've been very honest about acknowledging the mistake but you've also been overly defensive about it too.

MVBrandt wrote:
Warboss, if you are serious about attending next year, perhaps you should highlight in a positive and constructive way what else would make the event wonderful for you ... unless the ONLY thing missing was a whiff on calculation of a 3 point overage on a single list.


you mean like the discussion i had with YOU in another thread about the event regarding KP vs VP? i was the one who spent the time counting up as best i could the KP in the armies shown in the adepticon gallery to show you that going with VP DOES increase substantially the KP total of armies in your events (about 25% more compared with adepticon) contrary to what you said. i have been constructive both before and after this stuff came up. here are a couple of other drama queen, venomous, sniping, whining, violent, nonconstructive comments i've made about the event...

warboss wrote: you're billing it (and rightfully so) as one of the premiere 40k independant tournies.


holy crap... how'd that one get by dakka's profanity filter?

warboss wrote:does it seem like the event was still a success for those who attended? sure. does it have room for improvement? you bet.


ouch. that one's really below the belt!

warboss wrote:MVBrandt is so open and vocal about the changes he's trying to make to the 40k tourney scene; you'd think he'd want to mention something about this too.


OMG!! i called you "open" and "vocal"!?!? that's almost as bad as calling you approachable and eloquent!

warboss wrote:it sounded like it was a well run fun event and I (as a supporter of KP) probably would have enjoyed it too.


quick, someone press the report triangle exclamation thingee!

warboss wrote:Your tourney was successful and i'm hopeful that it will continue to be but you're misunderstanding a few things. Taking out KP as a factor does significantly change what armies come as well as affects WHO comes.


boom! headshot! what a snipe!

was there criticism in my posts in this thread about how it was handled? yes. was it addressed? yes. was that criticism warranted? yes (although some would disagree). do you have to circle the wagons and gather up the posse to lynch someone who questioned you or disagrees about a part of the event? No.


We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
 
   
 
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