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Frazzled wrote:

Mr. Burning wrote:If rebels threaten non rebel held towns and cities (those loyal to gaddafi) will the the forces supporting the UN resolution intervene?

For example; rebels leave 'Rebel Town' and take up in a collection of vans captured apcs and what nots and proceed to 'gaddafi is bestest' village intent on taking it.

They are doing that now actually.

Wait, so the UN process is "everyone stop fighting and we'll help you hold what you have today"?

That seems slightly absurd.

Either we side with the rebels and take out Ghadaffi or we let this thing play out (I assume siding with Ghadaffi is out of the question).

biccat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Mr. Burning wrote:If rebels threaten non rebel held towns and cities (those loyal to gaddafi) will the the forces supporting the UN resolution intervene?

For example; rebels leave 'Rebel Town' and take up in a collection of vans captured apcs and what nots and proceed to 'gaddafi is bestest' village intent on taking it.

They are doing that now actually.

Wait, so the UN process is "everyone stop fighting and we'll help you hold what you have today"?

That seems slightly absurd.

Either we side with the rebels and take out Ghadaffi or we let this thing play out (I assume siding with Ghadaffi is out of the question).

Gaddafi has served his purpose and is now on the way out he did the sensible thing and stopped his programme of WMD acquisition and kept very quiet in the late 80's and early ninties (with Support for terrorism fading and the collapse of his Soviet bankroll) even quieter during Gulf 1 and Gulf 2 and Afghanistan.

Luckily for the west a popular uprising has made Gaddafis situation untenable but like most totalitarian regimes there ain't any plans to transfer power to the people.

gaddafi needs to be terminated, but if his people cannot do it, even with our help, there are going to be problems and open wounds, filled with western political salt, on both sides.

wasn't that Mirage shot down a rebel flown one? I couldn't see how this resolution could be even handed.

That's a Mig 23. I am unaware of a mirage going down, not saying it didn't happen, but this is currently the famous one. I would have to think that was a Libyan government jet shot down by rebels, those are what the US navy shot down in the 80's. I could be wrong but I don't see the rebels having the training to fly it, which could also explain the crash. If you look close, it looks like you can see the parachute from the pilot.

Found a report about the mirage.

"French military sources denied previous report that one of its planes carrying out operations in Libya was shot down on Saturday.

"We deny (that), all the planes that went out today have returned," spokesman of French General Staff, Thierry Burkhard was quoted by AFP as saying."

There is all kinds of info if you look

On 19 March 2011, a rebel Free Libyan Air Force MiG-23BN was shot down over Benghazi. That must be it in the video! Who shot it down, was this friendly fire? From the video it looked like rebel AA took it down. This is why I don't want our planes over there.

I'm glad we're staying out of this one.

Owain wrote:I'm glad we're staying out of this one.

But we aren't.That's the problem. Really,no matter what, if this turns into a fiasco it will get blamed on the US.

Andrew1975 wrote:

Owain wrote:I'm glad we're staying out of this one.

But we aren't.That's the problem. Really,no matter what, if this turns into a fiasco it will get blamed on the US.

You really do have a serious problem with this whole US v The World concept, don't you?

You really do have a serious problem with this whole US v The World concept, don't you?

Maybe you would too, if you lived here and had to pay for a global defense force. How much is Libya costing Australia right now, oh yeah NOTHING! Did I miss something or did planes fly into Australian buildings because you had troops in the gulf. Do the French desecrate the graves of Australian troops who died on d-day. Oh i guess not.

I know what part the Aussie army has played supporting the US, so I'm thankful for that. But lets face it, to most people Australia is more famous for Men at work and Crocodile Dundee than International contributions, not really making you a target for Ire or threat.

Andrew1975 wrote:

You really do have a serious problem with this whole US v The World concept, don't you?

Maybe you would too, if you lived here and had to pay for a global defense force

Considering there are people here (on both sides of the political aisle) that are ok with it, that argument doesn't really hold water. Just say you don't like it, don't parade your feelings as some mass movement.

Considering there are people here (on both sides of the political aisle) that are ok with it,

And there are people that aren't happy about it either......What's your point. There are quite a few people that don't think we need to be in Libya. In fact there are dems right now questioning impeachment. Sure they are wackjobs like Dennis Kusinich but still. There US is hardly in a general consensus that this is necessary and or good.

Andrew1975 wrote:

Considering there are people here (on both sides of the political aisle) that are ok with it,

And there are people that aren't happy about it either......

I never said otherwise, unlike your statement which pretended to speak for everyone in the US.

Andrew1975 wrote:What's your point.

It isn't a riddle or esoteric.

Andrew1975 wrote:

You really do have a serious problem with this whole US v The World concept, don't you?

Maybe you would too, if you lived here and had to pay for a global defense force. How much is Libya costing Australia right now, oh yeah NOTHING! Did I miss something or did planes fly into Australian buildings because you had troops in the gulf. Do the French desecrate the graves of Australian troops who died on d-day. Oh i guess not.

I know what part the Aussie army has played supporting the US, so I'm thankful for that. But lets face it, to most people Australia is more famous for Men at work and Crocodile Dundee than International contributions, not really making you a target for Ire or threat.

Ahtman wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:

Considering there are people here (on both sides of the political aisle) that are ok with it,

And there are people that aren't happy about it either......

I never said otherwise, unlike your statement which pretended to speak for everyone in the US.

Andrew1975 wrote:What's your point.

It isn't a riddle or esoteric.

Where does it say all Americans or all of America, it doesn't even say most of America. I've never claimed to be the voice of a nation. Where are you getting that?

The fact that the Arab league is already backpeddeling speaks volumes that fingers will be pointed.

Andrew1975 wrote:Maybe you would too, if you lived here and had to pay for a global defense force. How much is Libya costing Australia right now, oh yeah NOTHING! Did I miss something or did planes fly into Australian buildings because you had troops in the gulf.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Bali_bombings

But lets face it, to most people Australia is more famous for Men at work and Crocodile Dundee than International contributions, not really making you a target for Ire or threat.

I guess particularly ignorant people might assume that what it's jokingly parodied for in the US is what the whole of the world would understand about Australia. But there's a whole world out there that's got a lot more complexity and sophistication than your almost childlike view "people hate us and us alone and it's purely because we meddle in the affairs of other countries".

"people hate us and us alone and it's purely because we meddle in the affairs of other countries".

This is the problem, I've already given credence and credit to our allies that generally support the US such as England, Australia, and Canada among others. Not because I thought that the operations they executed together were vital to world security, but because at in general these allies do support each other. Now consider countries like France Italy and Germany for example.

Look at Libya. The US and UK are using expensive munitions to take out sandcastles at a cost to the US so far just in Tomahawk missles at Unit cost, $US 569,000, well that is $62.6 million for 110 of them. The rest of the allies are getting flight training in comparison. Italy is allowing bases to be used. It's an obvious tragedy, but not on the same level.

The Bali bombings were retaliation for US and Australian intervention. For Australia it was intervention in east Timor, that is within Australia's sphere, it not like it's 8000 miles away, unlike most US escapades, I could see your concern. One of those bombs went off in front of the US consulate, granted smaller bomb. Comparing the Bali bombings to 911 is hardly an even comparison. Not only did it not take place in Australia, its effects were much much less.

There is still no real strategy to this conflict. Does it stop at no-fly zones? Does it stop when big G is gone? Are there now going to be two separate Lybias? Enforcing no fly zones without any other goals is not a fix for anything. But resolution 1973 does not call for anything other than No fly zones. What happens then?

Not only am I not a fan of these conflicts, I really can't stand them when we do go in with no plan and both arms tied. At least if you are gonna do it, do it well.

Andrew1975 wrote:

"people hate us and us alone and it's purely because we meddle in the affairs of other countries".

This is the problem, I've already given credence and credit to our allies that generally support the US such as England, Australia, and Canada among others. Not because I thought that the operations they executed together were vital to world security, but because at in general these allies do support each other. Now consider countries like France Italy and Germany for example.

Look at Libya. The US and UK are using expensive munitions to take out sandcastles at a cost to the US so far just in Tomahawk missles at Unit cost, $US 569,000, well that is $62.6 million for 110 of them. The rest of the allies are getting flight training in comparison. Italy is allowing bases to be used. It's an obvious tragedy, but not on the same level.

The Bali bombings were retaliation for US and Australian intervention. For Australia it was intervention in east Timor, that is within Australia's sphere, it not like it's 8000 miles away, unlike most US escapades, I could see your concern. One of those bombs went off in front of the US consulate, granted smaller bomb. Comparing the Bali bombings to 911 is hardly an even comparison. Not only did it not take place in Australia, its effects were much much less.

There is still no real strategy to this conflict. Does it stop at no-fly zones? Does it stop when big G is gone? Are there now going to be two separate Lybias? Enforcing no fly zones without any other goals is not a fix for anything. But resolution 1973 does not call for anything other than No fly zones. What happens then?

Not only am I not a fan of these conflicts, I really can't stand them when we do go in with no plan and both arms tied. At least if you are gonna do it, do it well.

Do you actually understand what a sphere of influence is. I don't think you do.

Andrew1975 wrote:

wasn't that Mirage shot down a rebel flown one? I couldn't see how this resolution could be even handed.

That's a Mig 23. I am unaware of a mirage going down, not saying it didn't happen, but this is currently the famous one. I would have to think that was a Libyan government jet shot down by rebels, those are what the US navy shot down in the 80's. I could be wrong but I don't see the rebels having the training to fly it, which could also explain the crash. If you look close, it looks like you can see the parachute from the pilot.

Found a report about the mirage.

"French military sources denied previous report that one of its planes carrying out operations in Libya was shot down on Saturday.

"We deny (that), all the planes that went out today have returned," spokesman of French General Staff, Thierry Burkhard was quoted by AFP as saying."

There is all kinds of info if you look

On 19 March 2011, a rebel Free Libyan Air Force MiG-23BN was shot down over Benghazi. That must be it in the video! Who shot it down, was this friendly fire? From the video it looked like rebel AA took it down. This is why I don't want our planes over there.

Thank you for your in-depth reporting. I don't really care if its a Mirage or a Flogger variant.

Funniest Mod post ever...

Ketara wrote:

but seriously, its not like the USA starts things it cant realistically finish... is it?

AvatarForm wrote:Funniest Mod post ever...

Ketara wrote:

but seriously, its not like the USA starts things it cant realistically finish... is it?

I'm not american; but this kind of thing annoys me. America is one of the few countries with the balls to take care of anything; without tip-toeing about and debating for centuries before taking any action. I'm not a warmonger but sometimes things should be done.

No country has the right to blame America for anything; unless that country has also done something proper to contribute to world security (and that knocks off a bunch of countries; almost including the UK. Iraq changes that for us; we did our duty.)

You need to know what its like actually doing security; rather than playing politics.

Mr Hyena wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:Funniest Mod post ever...

Ketara wrote:

but seriously, its not like the USA starts things it cant realistically finish... is it?

I'm not american; but this kind of thing annoys me. America is one of the few countries with the balls to take care of anything; without tip-toeing about and debating for centuries before taking any action. I'm not a warmonger but sometimes things should be done.

No country has the right to blame America for anything; unless that country has also done something proper to contribute to world security (and that knocks off a bunch of countries; almost including the UK. Iraq changes that for us; we did our duty.)

You need to know what its like actually doing security; rather than playing politics.

Why does "America" need to do anything at all... Afterall, it is the USA that seems to be the initiator in all the worldwide shenanigans. Pciking its 'soft' targets in order to repair its poor economy. TBH, I believe they also need to justify their over-spending for decades on the Defence Force without action.

Also, 'world security': Seriously? This ties into my other thread, the UN has a 'Peace-keeping' force... why does the USA determine who is 'right' and 'wrong'? Most of these countries have been operating as they are for centuries without intervention... then suddenly, a country that that the USA decides gets invaded?

Another thing, have you ever wondered why 9-11 happened in the USA? It wasnt just because they had troops stationed in another country... there are many more reasons why somneone would strike back at them.

Andrew1975 wrote:

You really do have a serious problem with this whole US v The World concept, don't you?

Maybe you would too, if you lived here and had to pay for a global defense force. How much is Libya costing Australia right now, oh yeah NOTHING! Did I miss something or did planes fly into Australian buildings because you had troops in the gulf. Do the French desecrate the graves of Australian troops who died on d-day. Oh i guess not.

I know what part the Aussie army has played supporting the US, so I'm thankful for that. But lets face it, to most people Australia is more famous for Men at work and Crocodile Dundee than International contributions, not really making you a target for Ire or threat.

Nice.

So this map wasn't a joke?

Mr Hyena wrote:
I'm not american; but this kind of thing annoys me. America is one of the few countries with the balls to take care of anything; without tip-toeing about and debating for centuries before taking any action. I'm not a warmonger but sometimes things should be done.

I don't get it. I thought France was the decisive one here.

Andrew1975 wrote:

You really do have a serious problem with this whole US v The World concept, don't you?

Maybe you would too, if you lived here and had to pay for a global defense force. How much is Libya costing Australia right now, oh yeah NOTHING! Did I miss something or did planes fly into Australian buildings because you had troops in the gulf. Do the French desecrate the graves of Australian troops who died on d-day. Oh i guess not.

I know what part the Aussie army has played supporting the US, so I'm thankful for that. But lets face it, to most people Australia is more famous for Men at work and Crocodile Dundee than International contributions, not really making you a target for Ire or threat.

Seriously. I missed this on my first fly-by.

But after Emperor's Faithful quoted it... I seriously thought I was reading something written by britney Spears... who considers a tour in Canada as "having travelled overseas"...

I believe the primary problem (and possibly a consideration before future pro-USA posts) is the poor education standards in the USA. Afterall, why attempt to solve the (perceived) problems of others when your own socio-economic situation is deteriorating more-rapidly than your beareaucrats can handle?

Another point... why is the USA media allowed to blatantly lie to its own people and others concerning world affairs?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:

Owain wrote:I'm glad we're staying out of this one.

But we aren't.That's the problem. Really,no matter what, if this turns into a fiasco it will get blamed on the US.

You really do have a serious problem with this whole US v The World concept, don't you?

Its accurate. The Arab League is already backpedalled. Bush had twice as many allies as the NeoBams. No good will come from this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AvatarForm wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:Funniest Mod post ever...

Ketara wrote:

but seriously, its not like the USA starts things it cant realistically finish... is it?

I'm not american; but this kind of thing annoys me. America is one of the few countries with the balls to take care of anything; without tip-toeing about and debating for centuries before taking any action. I'm not a warmonger but sometimes things should be done.

No country has the right to blame America for anything; unless that country has also done something proper to contribute to world security (and that knocks off a bunch of countries; almost including the UK. Iraq changes that for us; we did our duty.)

You need to know what its like actually doing security; rather than playing politics.

Why does "America" need to do anything at all... Afterall, it is the USA that seems to be the initiator in all the worldwide shenanigans. Pciking its 'soft' targets in order to repair its poor economy. TBH, I believe they also need to justify their over-spending for decades on the Defence Force without action.

Also, 'world security': Seriously? This ties into my other thread, the UN has a 'Peace-keeping' force... why does the USA determine who is 'right' and 'wrong'? Most of these countries have been operating as they are for centuries without intervention... then suddenly, a country that that the USA decides gets invaded?

Another thing, have you ever wondered why 9-11 happened in the USA? It wasnt just because they had troops stationed in another country... there are many more reasons why somneone would strike back at them.

Here's evidence of the Blame America crowd right here.

We just lost an F15. Its already cost too much. Time to leave.

Frazzled wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:

Owain wrote:I'm glad we're staying out of this one.

But we aren't.That's the problem. Really,no matter what, if this turns into a fiasco it will get blamed on the US.

You really do have a serious problem with this whole US v The World concept, don't you?

Its accurate. The Arab League is already backpedalled. Bush had twice as many allies as the NeoBams. No good will come from this.

Look, another one!

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:

Owain wrote:I'm glad we're staying out of this one.

But we aren't.That's the problem. Really,no matter what, if this turns into a fiasco it will get blamed on the US.

You really do have a serious problem with this whole US v The World concept, don't you?

Its accurate. The Arab League is already backpedalled. Bush had twice as many allies as the NeoBams. No good will come from this.

Look, another one!

You're talking like you're doing something. I don't see Australian jets flying over Libya, just your internet lips flapping.

Frazzled wrote:

We just lost an F15. Its already cost too much. Time to leave.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fgw-libya-us-jet-crash-20110323,0,6432862.story

It wasn't shot down, and both pilots have now been recovered.

I'm balling my eyes out here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
You're talking like you're doing something. I don't see Australian jets flying over Libya, just your internet lips flapping.

Haven't you heard? All we backwards Aussies do is wrestle Crocs and eat Kangaroos. Sorry mate, out of our jurisdiction.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

We just lost an F15. Its already cost too much. Time to leave.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fgw-libya-us-jet-crash-20110323,0,6432862.story

It wasn't shot down, and both pilots have now been recovered.

I'm balling my eyes out here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
You're talking like you're doing something. I don't see Australian jets flying over Libya, just your internet lips flapping.

Haven't you heard? All we backwards Aussies do is wrestle Crocs and eat Kangaroos. Sorry mate, out of our jurisdiction.

I didn't say it was shot down. But again you wouldn't know as Your guys aren't flying are they? So you're jabbing yet your country has no skin in the game. I proffer what that makes you but then I'd have to suspend myself.

Frazzled wrote:I didn't say it was shot down. But again you wouldn't know as Your guys aren't flying are they? So you're jabbing yet your country has no skin in the game. I proffer what that makes you but then I'd have to suspend myself.

So, tell me Frazzy. What are you doing to help the situation in Libya.

Frazzled wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

We just lost an F15. Its already cost too much. Time to leave.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fgw-libya-us-jet-crash-20110323,0,6432862.story

It wasn't shot down, and both pilots have now been recovered.

I'm balling my eyes out here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
You're talking like you're doing something. I don't see Australian jets flying over Libya, just your internet lips flapping.

Haven't you heard? All we backwards Aussies do is wrestle Crocs and eat Kangaroos. Sorry mate, out of our jurisdiction.

I didn't say it was shot down. But again you wouldn't know as Your guys aren't flying are they? So you're jabbing yet your country has no skin in the game. I proffer what that makes you but then I'd have to suspend myself.

I believe the point was already made, Frazzled. We dont need to be there... afterall, it is TEAM AMERICA, World Police... we just lend a hand when you realise (once again) that you have bitten off more than you can chew.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Frazzled wrote:I didn't say it was shot down. But again you wouldn't know as Your guys aren't flying are they? So you're jabbing yet your country has no skin in the game. I proffer what that makes you but then I'd have to suspend myself.

So, tell me Frazzy. What are you doing to help the situation in Libya.

Sending letters to my representatives telling them I won't support them financially in future campaigns if this continues.

Frazzled wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:

Owain wrote:I'm glad we're staying out of this one.

But we aren't.That's the problem. Really,no matter what, if this turns into a fiasco it will get blamed on the US.

You really do have a serious problem with this whole US v The World concept, don't you?

Its accurate. The Arab League is already backpedalled. Bush had twice as many allies as the NeoBams. No good will come from this.

Look, another one!

You're talking like you're doing something. I don't see Australian jets flying over Libya, just your internet lips flapping.

And what the feth are YOU doing!? Let's be real here, you are doing feth all - you just like to chest-beat on behalf of the USA, treating their military victories as your victories, and their efforts as your efforts. You are the worst kind of arm-chair warrior. You can claim no credit here whatsoever.


Also, I would like to add to the calls for less America-bashing, for the reasons already set out by other posters.