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Brother Ramses wrote:I would say that per that FAQ question alone, that wounds caused by DT tests fall out of the normal realm of shooting (clearly expressed by the FAQ) but also out of the normal realm of multi-wound allocation and instant death allocation.

We are given specific instruction,

On a model by model basis, each model takes a DT test.

On a model by model basis, each model that fails takes a wound.

It cannot get any clearer on how this mechanic works and also cannot get any clearer that it falls outside the realm of every rule for taking saves and allocating wounds, mutli-wound model or not.

I agree completely with this list of operations.

However: What do you do after these steps? You've failed a DT test and taken a wound, what next? It is this next step where disagreement lies.

biccat wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:I would say that per that FAQ question alone, that wounds caused by DT tests fall out of the normal realm of shooting (clearly expressed by the FAQ) but also out of the normal realm of multi-wound allocation and instant death allocation.

We are given specific instruction,

On a model by model basis, each model takes a DT test.

On a model by model basis, each model that fails takes a wound.

It cannot get any clearer on how this mechanic works and also cannot get any clearer that it falls outside the realm of every rule for taking saves and allocating wounds, mutli-wound model or not.

I agree completely with this list of operations.

However: What do you do after these steps? You've failed a DT test and taken a wound, what next? It is this next step where disagreement lies.

"Most models have a single Wound on their profile, in which case for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the table as a casualty."

time wizard wrote:

biccat wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:I would say that per that FAQ question alone, that wounds caused by DT tests fall out of the normal realm of shooting (clearly expressed by the FAQ) but also out of the normal realm of multi-wound allocation and instant death allocation.

We are given specific instruction,

On a model by model basis, each model takes a DT test.

On a model by model basis, each model that fails takes a wound.

It cannot get any clearer on how this mechanic works and also cannot get any clearer that it falls outside the realm of every rule for taking saves and allocating wounds, mutli-wound model or not.

I agree completely with this list of operations.

However: What do you do after these steps? You've failed a DT test and taken a wound, what next? It is this next step where disagreement lies.

"Most models have a single Wound on their profile, in which case for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the table as a casualty."

First, you missed a step. Second, your quote is completely out of context.

biccat wrote:

First, you missed a step. Second, your quote is completely out of context.

Like saying that all wounds follow the "For every model that fails its save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound."
Which is consistantly taken out of context and bent to apply to wounds suffered from failine a dangerous terrain test, wounds from a weapon that Gets Hot! and wounds suffered by Perils of the Warp.
Even though this sentence is in the Shooting phase section and the FAQ says the wounds are not allocated as per shooting.

So what was asked was "You've failed a DT test and taken a wound, what next?"

Well next you can roll for an invulnerable save if you have one.
Then if you fail that, the model suffers a wound.
And the rule said that most models have only 1 wound on their profile so when they suffer a wound they are removed.
Paraphrased here I know, but I think even the most noob player will know this.

Applying 1 sentence or 1 part of the multi wound model rule to a failed DT test when you are specifically told in the FAQ that wounds suffered by failed dangerous terrain tests are not applied as per the shooting rules, is taking something out of context.

time wizard wrote:Like saying that all wounds follow the "For every model that fails its save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound."

The whole rule you cited is as follows:

For every model that fails its save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound. Of course this also includes wounds against which no save can be attempted, such as those from weapons with very high AP. Most models have a single Wound on their profile, in which case for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the table as a casualty. As long as all the models in the unit have the same profile, special rules, weapons and wargear, the player who owns the unit can choose which of his models is removed.

If you're going to argue that the whole rule doesn't apply, then you need to explain why it doesn't apply.

time wizard wrote:Which is consistantly taken out of context and bent to apply to wounds suffered from failine a dangerous terrain test, wounds from a weapon that Gets Hot! and wounds suffered by Perils of the Warp.

I'm not taking it out of context, I'm applying the whole rule, not just one sentence.

time wizard wrote:Even though this sentence is in the Shooting phase section and the FAQ says the wounds are not allocated as per shooting.

If this section doesn't apply, then 1) why did you quote it; and 2) what rule should you use for removing casualties?

time wizard wrote:So what was asked was "You've failed a DT test and taken a wound, what next?"

Well next you can roll for an invulnerable save if you have one.
Then if you fail that, the model suffers a wound.
And the rule said that most models have only 1 wound on their profile so when they suffer a wound they are removed.
Paraphrased here I know, but I think even the most noob player will know this.

See above. I quoted the exact rule for removing casualties that you cited. This is not how the rule works.

time wizard wrote:Applying 1 sentence or 1 part of the multi wound model rule to a failed DT test when you are specifically told in the FAQ that wounds suffered by failed dangerous terrain tests are not applied as per the shooting rules, is taking something out of context.

I think that it has been explained often enough how the FAQ doesn't address the issue. I'm not sure which page it is on, so I can make the argument again if you want.

biccat wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:I would say that per that FAQ question alone, that wounds caused by DT tests fall out of the normal realm of shooting (clearly expressed by the FAQ) but also out of the normal realm of multi-wound allocation and instant death allocation.

We are given specific instruction,

On a model by model basis, each model takes a DT test.

On a model by model basis, each model that fails takes a wound.

It cannot get any clearer on how this mechanic works and also cannot get any clearer that it falls outside the realm of every rule for taking saves and allocating wounds, mutli-wound model or not.

I agree completely with this list of operations.

However: What do you do after these steps? You've failed a DT test and taken a wound, what next? It is this next step where disagreement lies.

What would you normally do with wound? It isn't rocket science here despite the attempts to over complicate the situation to an advantage.

The model that fails the DT test takes the wound. You have directions right there to not only who takes the test but to also who the specific DT test caused wound is allocated to.

Are you trying to insert a step that says after you have allocated the wound to the model that failed the DT test you re-allocate it? That is not what the rule or FAQ says.

Are you trying to allocate the resultant unsaved wound if the model does not have an inv save that he passes? You do not allocate unsaved wounds.

Brother Ramses wrote:What would you normally do with wound?

Whatever the rules say you normally do with a wound.

Brother Ramses wrote:The model that fails the DT test takes the wound. You have directions right there to not only who takes the test but to also who the specific DT test caused wound is allocated to.

Right.

Brother Ramses wrote:Are you trying to insert a step that says after you have allocated the wound to the model that failed the DT test you re-allocate it? That is not what the rule or FAQ says.

No, there is no "reallocation." "For every model that fails its save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound." You failed a save (or couldn't take one), so the unit takes an unsaved wound. Then you remove a model from the unit. No allocation involved.

Brother Ramses wrote:Are you trying to allocate the resultant unsaved wound if the model does not have an inv save that he passes? You do not allocate unsaved wounds.

Agreed. You allocate wounds then take saves. The DT rule says you don't allocate wounds, but you are allowed to take a save. Absent some other rule, the opportunity to take a save brings the DT situation back within the purvue of the normal wounding rules.

It brings it back into the purvue of the normal wounding rules as far as it tells you to in the initial set of rules that the individual model that fails the test is the one that takes the wound.

See, that is where you are stumbling. You try to bring in that for every model that fails its save, the unit suffers and unsaved wound, but nothing about the DT rules specify that the unit takes the unsaved wound per the normal ruleset. In fact it is reinforced that the unit does not take wounds because you would not group wounds on identical models. Each individual model takes the test, each individual model takes a wound. As each individual model that fails the DT test takes a wound (not grouping wounds on identical models) where do you get the instruction to then group the unsanved wounds on the unit?

Simply put, you don't.

The individual model takes the test, the individual model takes the wound, the individual model takes the unsaved wound. I see no other reason (other then personal gain) to think that despite all aspects of the DT test being done on the individual model level, that it suddenly shifts to the unit at the last step.

You are assuming that because the model takes a save as normal, that suddenly the ruleset shifts back to the normal rules for everything else.

Brother Ramses wrote:See, that is where you are stumbling.

You're mistaken in assuming that I'm stumbling. I completely understand the argument for removing the model when it fails a DT test. I just think it's wrong and that the ability to remove any model is correct by RAW.

Brother Ramses wrote:You try to bring in that for every model that fails its save, the unit suffers and unsaved wound, but nothing about the DT rules specify that the unit takes the unsaved wound per the normal ruleset.

More importantly, the DT rules specify which model suffers the wound but do not deal with removing the model that suffered the wound (if it fails a save). Because this part of the general rules isn't contradicted by the DT rules, we must apply the general rules.

Brother Ramses wrote:In fact it is reinforced that the unit does not take wounds because you would not group wounds on identical models. Each individual model takes the test, each individual model takes a wound. As each individual model that fails the DT test takes a wound (not grouping wounds on identical models) where do you get the instruction to then group the unsanved wounds on the unit?

The allocation rules are distinct from casualty removal, so there's no need for additional instruction. The DT rules say X suffers a wound, but don't address how to deal with that wound. So we have to fall back on the general rules. Barring any contrary instruction from the special rule, wounds from DT are dealt with in the same way as wounds from shooting attacks.

Brother Ramses wrote:The individual model takes the test, the individual model takes the wound, the individual model takes the unsaved wound. I see no other reason (other then personal gain) to think that despite all aspects of the DT test being done on the individual model level, that it suddenly shifts to the unit at the last step.

Apart from that's how the rules read, you're correct. On the personal gain side, people use casualty removal "shenanigans" all the time. Shoot a mob of 10 orks that are 5" away and you can be sure that he will remove the nearest orks, even if he allocated wounds to the orks in the back of the mob.

Brother Ramses wrote:You are assuming that because the model takes a save as normal, that suddenly the ruleset shifts back to the normal rules for everything else.

I'm not assuming, this is simply a case where the specific rule fails to address the issue, so we default to the general rules.

There simply isn't a rules mechanism to deal with the wounds in the manner you, or others, have suggested. The idea of "spreading around" wounds on a unit of multi-wound models is particularly interesting since the rules in that section specifically prohibit this behavior.

The FAQ specficially tells you that you do not follow the rules for shooting, so I am failing to see how you keep falling back on the general rules for shooting wounds being allocated to DT test wounds taken.

If the individual model takes the wound, how are you then going to allocate unsaved wounds to the unit?

You do not allocate unsaved wounds in the first place and the FAQ is specific in tell you that you do not treat them as wounds from shooting attacks. So where are you getting the express permission to fall back on the general rules?

I seriously don't understand how this thread made it to 7 pages AFTER the FAQ clearly stated what happened. No, that wasn't hyperbole, it WAS clearly stated.

Brother Ramses wrote:The FAQ specficially tells you that you do not follow the rules for shooting, so I am failing to see how you keep falling back on the general rules for shooting wounds being allocated to DT test wounds taken.

I keep falling back on those rules because they're the only ones that deal with casualty removal. There really aren't any others you can use.

Brother Ramses wrote:If the individual model takes the wound, how are you then going to allocate unsaved wounds to the unit?

There's a difference between wound allocation and removing casualties. The FAQ dealt with the former, which isn't relevent.

Brother Ramses wrote:You do not allocate unsaved wounds in the first place and the FAQ is specific in tell you that you do not treat them as wounds from shooting attacks. So where are you getting the express permission to fall back on the general rules?

Like I said, you have to look at how to remove casualties in this section because it is the only section that deals with removing casualties.

If you read through the rules with a view to understanding the game without your experience, you will see the six-step process described earlier in this thread. Don't do anything the rules don't specifically allow and you'll see that the DT rules require application of this section.