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Polonius wrote:Not be nitpicky...

But the rule says "look at the model."

What model?

Even for DCAs, there are two models.

As we have instituted, one of them is illegal.

Isn't that strong evidence that they mean, "the actual model in play," and not "the official model?"

Space marine captains alone have to have two dozen official models.

So do big meks and warbosses. All of those are Citadel Miniatures made by GW.

If I take a space marine librarian, do I look at the model on the website? Or the one on the table?

Assuming you followed the assembly instructions, they should look similar. If you added bits from a captain, that's no longer a Citadel Librarian.

Joe Mama wrote:

Jidmah wrote:The game rules for the model do not change by changing the model.

With the case of power weapons, the new rulebook explictly says they DO. "Power Weapon" is a category, and you see which specific type of power weapon from that category is found on the model on the table. That's what the rulebook says. So if your model comes with a power weapon standard, or you have to buy one, the type depends on what it looks like. Do you disagree?

So how did you get that model? Correct, by MFA.
Just like I modeled my ork's eyes 5" ft above him. The rulebook tells me to look through his eyes.

Jidmah wrote:The game rules for the model do not change by changing the model.

You realise that's the exact argument being made by those who think that changing the DCA's weapons is legal, right?

I'm still waiting on the answer regarding other models we don't like. We don't like the official Death Cult Assassins, that's been established quite clearly. We don't like them aesthetically and we don't like the fact that they're holding power swords.

What if we don't like Land Raiders? What can we do about that? Can we scratch build ones we do like from GW bitz, like we scratch built/converted some Death Cult Assassins? It will still have armour 14 and the same weapons and cost the same amount of points, but it will look very different and the guns might not all be where you expected them to be.

I used to play Imperial Guard. I hated the fact my Vendettas were so god damn big and couldn't fit on the table with a 6 inch move when coming from reserve. What could I have done about that?

Therion wrote:I'm still waiting on the answer regarding other models we don't like..

Start another thread.

This one is about why it is ok to use every option listed in your codex and the main rule book - specifically power weapons.
Which it is.

As long as weapons have similar firing arcs/height/distance from each other then it shouldn't be a problem.

But if you're a jerk and put all the weapons on one side and play with it up to a corner, then you are an ass.

Start another thread.

You are trolling. My question is relevant. I suspect you're ignoring it because you know the examples are analogous and don't like the answer.

As long as weapons have similar firing arcs/height/distance from each other then it shouldn't be a problem.

Page reference? Why are any of those things you mentioned a requirement?

But if you're a jerk and put all the weapons on one side and play with it up to a corner, then you are an ass.

Just like the guy who didn't like the power swords, and decided to do something about it...

You know, arguments like the power weapon can of worms are a great justification for banning conversions altogether. Privateer Press is onto something, I feel. Especially for tournaments, maybe models should be limited to what comes in the box, no more and no less. If there's no model of a unit, tough, you can't have one. We wouldn't want anyone to model for advantage, would we?

Just a modest proposal for the benefit of unambiguous rules and less arguments.

Jidmah wrote:So how did you get that model? Correct, by MFA.

So having a model comply with WYSIWYG is MFA now?


How do I get my Grey Hunter with a melta gun. I build the model with a melta gun. MFA.
How do I get my Wolf Guard with a power fist. I build the model with a power fist. MFA.
How do I get my Wolf Guard a (free) bolter. I build the model with a bolter. MFA.
How do I get my GK Crusader with a Category: Power Weapon, Type: Axe? I follow the WYSIWYG rules yet again and model the Crusader with an axe. MFA.

Jidmah wrote:As we have instituted, one of them is illegal.

Assuming you followed the assembly instructions, they should look similar. If you added bits from a captain, that's no longer a Citadel Librarian.

So, you're arguing that even using an officail GW model would be illegal? I mean, if this is an interesting though exercise, I guess good on you.

As for conversion, I think you're going to gain little traction with your stance that even a simple conversion makes a model no longer citadel, for reasons I've articulated.

Hm, let the records show my inability to reflect back on the SoB Codex reveals that, yes, the DCA have 2 Power Weapons; my mistake.

But it still makes me think; the Canoness can have a Power Sword, which apparently has been made to 'Power Weapon'. The Canoness DOES NOT come with a Power Weapon of any sorts after looking at it on GW. This would make the argue that bit specific kits is referenced for the purpose of particular Power Weapons invalid.

However, I don't own such a model and I don't know what it comes with. Anyone feel free to correct me and prove my point incorrect; I'm indifferent either way.

Jidman, As we have instituted, one of them is illegal. is probably one of the most unsupported by reality, hard line statements I have ever seen on Dakka, let alone YMTC.

How are you doing this? How are you able to compartmentalize away every modeling article and bitz box upgrade package every put out by the company?

Therion wrote:This is trolling.

Don't do that, it's mean.

It has been said that converting is ok.
Do you know what "converting" means in addition to "modeling" and "advantage?"

The GK codex lists them as having power weapons.

The rulebook states, on page 61 that you look at "the" model to figure out what weapon it has. If you converted it, then you have something different. You are given permission to convert models provided you did not edit them for an advantage.

An example would be modifying a GK dreadnought so it's autocannon arms are higher.

The only bonus you get for changing the weapons on a model in this case is to comply with WYSIWYG, and in this case you are told to refer to the model to see what weapons it has.

Now as to if you can have two different power weapons, it doesn't say you can't, not does it say you can. Personally I like the feel of power spears and axes, one to stab them in place, another to lop the head off.

Jidmah wrote:
The game rules for the model do not change by changing the model.

They do. They always have. Games Workshop have time and time again released a model then made rules to suit it.

I use crusaders in a small Sisters force. I don't use the official model I use an Adeptus Arbite. Thanks to the new rules it's now armed with a more appropriate power maul. The FAQ even says to change all references of power swords to power weapons. The power weapons are grouped together as they are considered equally balanced, it allows creativity and saves space in the codecs. GW allows 'count as', rebel grots counting as imperial guard as the classic example. They indeed encourage you to change and customise their models. The rules now suit this perfectly.

This is a hobby that allows you to be creative. The rules allow this more than ever now.

The background of the death cults say there are hundreds of different cults, all with different teachings and practises. Now the variety can be represented. I also seem to remember the 2 official models being based on named characters, neither are WYSIWYG (knives on one, not even power knives, and a single sword on the other).

Therion wrote:I'm still waiting on the answer regarding other models we don't like. We don't like the official Death Cult Assassins, that's been established quite clearly. We don't like them aesthetically and we don't like the fact that they're holding power swords.

What if we don't like Land Raiders? What can we do about that? Can we scratch build ones we do like from GW bitz, like we scratch built/converted some Death Cult Assassins? It will still have armour 14 and the same weapons and cost the same amount of points, but it will look very different and the guns might not all be where you expected them to be.

I used to play Imperial Guard. I hated the fact my Vendettas were so god damn big and couldn't fit on the table with a 6 inch move when coming from reserve. What could I have done about that?

Yes. You absolutely can scratchbuild any of those options. There's nothing - not a single rule - saying you can't.

The farther you stray from "standard" the fewer opponents you'll find.

This. Isn't. New.

Destrado wrote:For me this is just turning into an "Exalt Polonius" thread.

I'm sorry Jidmah, but I just can't agree with you even while I understand you. Would you play someone who uses wyches as Death Cult models? I'm just curious.

Sure, as long as you're using them as swords.
Just like I use all my conversions as if they were the original model, be it old trukks(acting as tall as new trukks), kopta-buggies(counting as having the same outline as GW buggies) or the ram+deff rolla battlewagons (counting as being slightly shorter, like the official ones).
If you like wyches with axes because of aesthetics, there shouldn't be a problem to have them count as swords, right?

insaniak wrote:

Jidmah wrote:The game rules for the model do not change by changing the model.

You realise that's the exact argument being made by those who think that changing the DCA's weapons is legal, right?

Except that models have no inherited permission to use weapons they don't come with.

The rule simply does not say "powerweapon? pick one!". It tells you to look at the model. Common sense also tells you to not look at a chaos terminator with a chain axe when asked to look at a death-cult assassin.

Jidmah wrote:The rule simply does not say "powerweapon? pick one!". It tells you to look at the model. Common sense also tells you to not look at a chaos terminator with a chain axe when asked to look at a death-cult assassin.

It would also make sense to look at the model in question instead of an arbitrary one from the internet, but I do not read you suggesting THAT.

what about Forge world models.

because currently all my Hydra's are MFA. ( i guess?)

RegulusBlack wrote:what about Forge world models.

because currently all my Hydra's are MFA. ( i guess?)

The head on one of my gants does not match the image from the instructions. MFA!

juraigamer wrote:The rulebook states, on page 61 that you look at "the" model to figure out what weapon it has. If you converted it, then you have something different. You are given permission to convert models provided you did not edit them for an advantage.

This restriction is impossible to follow in practice, I would argue. Anything can be an advantage, so by that yardstick, everything must be considered to be such. If you want to start splitting hairs, then converting cannot remain legal per the rules.

Therion wrote:I'm still waiting on the answer regarding other models we don't like. We don't like the official Death Cult Assassins, that's been established quite clearly. We don't like them aesthetically and we don't like the fact that they're holding power swords.

What if we don't like Land Raiders? What can we do about that? Can we scratch build ones we do like from GW bitz, like we scratch built/converted some Death Cult Assassins? It will still have armour 14 and the same weapons and cost the same amount of points, but it will look very different and the guns might not all be where you expected them to be.

I used to play Imperial Guard. I hated the fact my Vendettas were so god damn big and couldn't fit on the table with a 6 inch move when coming from reserve. What could I have done about that?

Well, I guess people have been ducking this the same way you and Jidmah have been ducking the questions about the semantic hypertechincal correctness behind MFA.

The rule against MFA has always been about unfair advantage. That your model should behave like other models using the same rules. As fire arcs, line of sight, physical dimensions, access ports, etc. all are factors into the rules for a unit, models shouldn't devait too far, so as not to gain unfair advantage.

so, there is a continuum of modelling, from selecting the melta gun from the tactical squad box instead of a bolter, all the way up to representing vendettas with a single scarab on a 25mm base. Somewhere along that continuum is using early edition rhino hulls. And somewhere along there is the DCA.

The problem is that the rules and tradition strongly suggest that scarab sized vendettas are improper, and strongly suggest that selecting a melta gun in a tactical squad is proper.

Quite simply, showing that soemthing is modelling for advantage is not enough. You need to show that it is, or should be, improper.

Jidmah wrote:Except that models have no inherited permission to use weapons they don't come with.

What weapons do DCA come with? The codex says two 'power weapons'. What does that term mean in 6th edition? Does it mean something specific, or general? I await your answer.

Meh, can't you guys like elect a representative?

It's getting hard to answer all of you.

Jidmah wrote:Meh, can't you guys like elect a representative?

It's getting hard to answer all of you.

Respond to 6 people in one post, this will limit the replies you get since you'll take longer to post each time.

What weapons do DCA come with? It says two 'power weapons'. What does that term mean in 6th edition? Does it mean something specific, or general? I await your answer.

I want a Land Raider in my army. Does that mean something specific modelling wise, or general? I await your answer.

Therion wrote:I want a Land Raider in my army. Does that mean something specific modelling wise, or general? I await your answer.

Check your codex for the options available, then model them.

Note:
This may require referencing other sources - like the rulebook - since some options are (further) explained there.

Therion wrote:

What weapons do DCA come with? It says two 'power weapons'. What does that term mean in 6th edition? Does it mean something specific, or general? I await your answer.

I want a Land Raider in my army. Does that mean something specific modelling wise, or general? I await your answer.

How about you answer my question first, if you can and then I will deal with yours. What does the term 'power weapon' mean in 6th edition? You seem to be stuck in a 5th edition mindset...

Therion wrote:

What weapons do DCA come with? It says two 'power weapons'. What does that term mean in 6th edition? Does it mean something specific, or general? I await your answer.

I want a Land Raider in my army. Does that mean something specific modelling wise, or general? I await your answer.

It does. It means a model with the exact dimensions, fire arcs and footprint of the Games Workshop plastic kit. It does not need to be one, of course. A wood, plastic or cardboard facsimile would be acceptable provided all the criteria were met. Nothing else would be fair.

Check your codex for the options available, then model them.

What options? It only says 'Land Raider' and then some pictures. I don't like the pictures. I like this one:

Can this be my Land Raider? Don't worry, I will attach all the proper weapons to it before I use it.

Therion wrote:

What weapons do DCA come with? It says two 'power weapons'. What does that term mean in 6th edition? Does it mean something specific, or general? I await your answer.

I want a Land Raider in my army. Does that mean something specific modelling wise, or general? I await your answer.

It depends - there's multiple variants of a Land Raider. Those variants have specific options.
"Power weapon" is not a specific option.