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vindicare - so, does your book say that? Mine doesnt.

And, again. I dont have to show rules against conversion, you have to show rules FOR them. I wont waste time answering your more facetious questions.

If people are seriously claiming the HOBBY section, as distinct from the RULES section count as rules, then so does the background. Doom is auto win against certain Eldar builds now! Necrons vs sisters is autowin to the Necron.

Later. When people can show any relevant rules it may be worth posting more.

There is no set anything besides past events in the background. Background tells a story, that much is obvious and fluff is not an argument in YMDC

I like you nos. Your arguments are almost always well constructed an make sense, and so I respect you as a player and a TO. I've even read your posts and almost always agreed with you in YMDC but this is crazy. I am willing to conceed an argument if the counter argument is valid, constructed and well thought out, but this is none of those things.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And, again. I dont have to show rules against conversion, you have to show rules FOR them. I wont waste time answering your more facetious questions.

Rules for conversion are in the exact same place than the rules for assembling the models. That is either the hobby section or nowhere depending of your interpretation.

And you do not answer the question about the permission to assemble models, as you know you don't have a leg to stand on. Either you can't play because you can't assemble your models, or you allow conversions. There are no other logical options.

nosferatu1001 wrote:And, again. I dont have to show rules against conversion, you have to show rules FOR them. I wont waste time answering your more facetious questions.

I am not being facetious. I am completely serious. There are the same number of rules for converting as there are for assembling and painting.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Please provide a RULES ALLOWANCE to alter that Citadel Miniature to be a non-citadel miniature by altering its appearance. If you cannot do so, please confirm that here. Continuing to argue that this is allowed, when you have yet to provide rules to the affirmative, breaks the tenets of this forum.

So the Blood Angels Death company can only ever have 1 Power weapon per five guys (And that has to be a Power Sword) Because that is all that comes with the box of Death Company?

The rules in the Blood Angels Dex P.88 Disagree with you.

"Any Death Company can replace their bolt pistol and/or chainsword with: - a power weapon..."

nosferatu1001 wrote:DR - yep, correct. Well, one has a sword, which can certainly be a power sword (internal, hilt PSU) so you know which weapon it is armed with

In the Pic I posted, the one with the single sword Is most definitely a power sword, due to the Power node on the blade, but what about its other power weapon? Where is that modeled?

The Model on the left has two non-power weapons, it is Illegal as well.

Are the models for the DCA illegal?

The GK book list the DCA as having Power Weapons. the rules state power weapons are one of four things.

Either way I think the Poll says a lot about this matter. Most people will not have an issue with it.

Crimson wrote:

Rules for conversion are in the exact same place than the rules for assembling the models. That is either the hobby section or nowhere depending of your interpretation.

]

Rules on page 2, instructions supplied by CM that a model is completed from parts (also defined in English, which is where you go to when the rules dont define it for you)

crimson wrote:And you do not answer the question about the permission to assemble models, as you know you don't have a leg to stand on.

I've repeatedy answered, and it has been repeatedly ignored.

crimson wrote:Either you can't play because you can't assemble your models, or you allow conversions. There are no other logical options.

False dichotomy is false.

DR - buy more than one box, then your unit will have the right equipment on it.

Again, apparently people cannot be bothered to read the thread, nor have you posted any rules. See the tenets ofYMDC

Let's not forget Vanguard Veterans and Sternguard Veterans. You can only take two 2 plasma pistols, two power swords, and a relic blade for you VV. It does not matter that your codex allows you to buy other options, as that is they way GW modelled them.

Same goes for Sternguard.

I know this is an extreme and facetious example, but taking Nos' extrapolation to the nth degree leaves me no choice.

I don't even know which army this assassin is used for and I would allow him to have an axe and a sword. I would allow my opponent to use an axe +1 CCW one turn and a sword +1 CCW the next in the same game. In the realm of GW's brokeness, this is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY at the bottom.

It boggles the mind that anyone can actually argue that converting models to show wargear options explicitly permitted by their rulebook and/or codex is illegal. Talk about obstinate. This has got to be the most absurdly stupid thread in the history of YMDC, and that's saying something.

nosferatu1001 wrote:I've repeatedy answered, and it has been repeatedly ignored.

You've repeatedly quoted non-Rule section sources for permission to assemble and paint models. Page 2 does not give permission to assemble or paint your models.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rules on page 2, instructions supplied by CM that a model is completed from parts (also defined in English, which is where you go to when the rules dont define it for you)

It does only say that the game is played with Citadel miniatures, that's all. The idea that a converted miniature is no longer a Citadel miniature is purely your invention. Also, I have no idea why instructions that come with (some) models would have any more bearing than the hobby section of the book.

Speaking of conversions...I have seen those "my little pony" space marines in tournament. Albeit, small local tournaments.

How does that sit with you?

pretre wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:I've repeatedy answered, and it has been repeatedly ignored.

You've repeatedly quoted non-Rule section sources for permission to assemble and paint models. Page 2 does not give permission to assemble or paint your models.

Find a rules definition of "the", then "a" .

I have not talked about painted models since you first brought this up, and agreed that nothing allows you to paint them. Or have you forgotten?

Danny - the options arent given in the codex, they tell you to look to the model FIRST then that tells you waht it is armed with. It does not give you permission to convert the model to look like what you want in the first place.

Crimson - it is no longer the DCA Citadel Mini. I can show you pics of wht that looks like. Its a very basic concept


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Grugknuckle wrote:Speaking of conversions...I have seen those "my little pony" space marines in tournament. Albeit, small local tournaments.

How does that sit with you?

Continuing strawmans there. Amusingly the same one that was already tried.

You do understand the difference between conversions that rovide no advantage, and those that do? Its quite a simple concept.

nosferatu1001 wrote:DR - buy more than one box, then your unit will have the right equipment on it.

Again, apparently people cannot be bothered to read the thread, nor have you posted any rules. See the tenets ofYMDC

So the Blood Angels Death company can only ever have 1 Power weapon per five guys (And that has to be a Power Sword) Because that is all that comes with the box of Death Company?

The rules in the Blood Angels Dex P.88 Disagree with you.

"Any Death Company can replace their bolt pistol and/or chainsword with: - a power weapon..."

There are your rules.

I bought 1 box of death company. By your interpretation I can only buy 1 power weapon on them, and the rules disagree with that interpretation.

Illogical leap there DR

The rules say you can use CM. It does not say you can only use 1 box of 5 DC to make 5 DC.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Find a rules definition of "the", then "a" .

Those aren't actions that impact play. Converting and assembling are actions that impact play.

I have not talked about painted models since you first brought this up, and agreed that nothing allows you to paint them. Or have you forgotten?

My bad on painting, but it doesn't change the point. There is no rules support for Assembly or Converting, and yet they are part of the game as evidenced by both the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook (Hobby Section) and the Citadel Miniatures product lines (Miniatures and Conversion Kits).

Danny - the options arent given in the codex, they tell you to look to the model FIRST then that tells you waht it is armed with. It does not give you permission to convert the model to look like what you want in the first place.

It also does not give permission to assemble those miniatures.

Crimson - it is no longer the DCA Citadel Mini. I can show you pics of wht that looks like. Its a very basic concept

There are many minis in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook that are converted and not stock. Does that make them non-citadel miniatures?

Pretre - so being unable to know what "the" means because it isnt within the rulenbook, as you claim ALL rules must be, wouldnt affect play?

Interesting but flawed argument.


Edit: re minis. I have already answered that about 36 times. It makes them no longer the Citadel mini for X, but a converted mini for X using Citadel Miniature parts

Again, not a tricky concept.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Crimson - it is no longer the DCA Citadel Mini. I can show you pics of wht that looks like. Its a very basic concept

I claim that models assembled from Citadel parts are in fact Citadel miniatures as meant by the rules. Yes, it is not that exact same Citadel DCA model anymore (neither of which are strictly speaking rules legal without a conversion anyway) but it still is a Citadel miniature.

Oh, and by your interpretation how much from the printed instructions can one deviate from until the models became illegal? Can I put an arm into a different position than shown in the picture or does it make it 'not a Citadel miniature'? And what about combinations from a single kit that are not shown in the instructions? They do not show pictures of all possible combinations, that would be impossible. I guess we cannot use those then, no? And some miniatures don't even come with instuctions. I guess those are just illegal too.

And i don't even get why we care about these printed instuctions anyway, if we don't care about the hobby section... neither are rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Pretre - so being unable to know what "the" means because it isnt within the rulenbook, as you claim ALL rules must be, wouldnt affect play?

Interesting but flawed argument.

You are the one who said that you can't convert because it is not contained in the rules. I am only applying your same logic to another, very similar, process. If assembly is not covered in the rules, you cannot do it.

You are trying to change the subject by going for definitions of the and a.


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nosferatu1001 wrote:Edit: re minis. I have already answered that about 36 times. It makes them no longer the Citadel mini for X, but a converted mini for X using Citadel Miniature parts

Again, not a tricky concept.

So GW, who owns Citadel, is showing us in their own rulebook examples of models that do not follow the rules?

No, I am trying to poiint out that the rulebook is not inclusive, so when it points to the use of Citadel Minis, which are defined as being made from parts, you are allowed to know what that means.

Again, any rules? Any at all? None, as usual.

Bye all.


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Edit: theyre showing you in the hobby section what you can do with the models you purchase

Nothing says they remain game legal

Shock.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, I am trying to poiint out that the rulebook is not inclusive, so when it points to the use of Citadel Minis, which are defined as being made from parts, you are allowed to know what that means.

And why are you allowed to define it? The category of Citadel minis could also be interpreted to mean Miniatures made from Citadel parts. It is not defined, so you are just assuming what it means.

Again, any rules? Any at all? None, as usual.

Bye all.

You keep falling back on this and then provide no rules of your own. It gets tiring.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, I am trying to poiint out that the rulebook is not inclusive, so when it points to the use of Citadel Minis, which are defined as being made from parts, you are allowed to know what that means.

Yes, we know exactly what it means and we know what to do with those parts. Why? It is told us in the HOBBY SECTION!




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pretre wrote:And why are you allowed to define it? The category of Citadel minis could also be interpreted to mean Miniatures made from Citadel parts. It is not defined, so you are just assuming what it means.

Yes, and with one interpretation a large chunk of the miniatures pictured in the book are illegal, and there is a section about creating illegal miniatures. With the other interpretation this is not the case. A reasonable person might be able to conclude something from this.

Crimson wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, I am trying to poiint out that the rulebook is not inclusive, so when it points to the use of Citadel Minis, which are defined as being made from parts, you are allowed to know what that means.

Yes, we know exactly what it means and we know what to do with those parts. Why? It is told us in the HOBBY SECTION!


...as seperate from the section handily entitled "THE RULES"

Shocknig that one would expect to find rules in the rules section...

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pretre wrote:And why are you allowed to define it? The category of Citadel minis could also be interpreted to mean Miniatures made from Citadel parts. It is not defined, so you are just assuming what it means.

Yes, and with one interpretation a large chunk of the miniatures pictured in the book are illegal, and there is a section about creating illegal miniatures. With the other interpretation this is not the case. A reasonable person might be able to conclude something from this.

That warhammer 40,000 isnt just a game, but a hobby as well? There is a whole section on GD entries as well, are you claiming those are game legal?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Illogical leap there DR

The rules say you can use CM. It does not say you can only use 1 box of 5 DC to make 5 DC.

Ok so Combi Melta's on Sternguard are illegal?

Or putting anything other than a Bolter and a Power Sword on your AOBR Captain is illegal?

By the rules these things are allowed.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Danny - the options arent given in the codex, they tell you to look to the model FIRST then that tells you waht it is armed with. It does not give you permission to convert the model to look like what you want in the first place.

Ok, so how about answering the question asked and ignored way back towards the start of the thread:

Looking at the two DCA models GW currently provides, which two power weapons do they have?

One model has a single power sword. What is the second power weapon?
The other has two unpowered swords. What power weapons does it have?

There's actually a number of example pictures in the rules section that have models with options not provided in the kit, i.e. conversions.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
...as seperate from the section handily entitled "THE RULES"

Shocknig that one would expect to find rules in the rules section...

I want to see the rules quote that tells us how to assemble our miniatures. Yes, we can extrapolate from the rules text that the models probably need to be assembled... somehow, but there is no actual rules that tell us how. I want to see the danm rules for that!

Give us your process of building a rules legal Citadel miniature, with reasoning and rules quote for every step.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Again straw man

Two, distinctly different rules at play

1) You can model the upgrades you are allowed
2) You look at the model to determine what weapon it has

The rules ARE CLEAR on this. You build the model as supplied by Citadel Miniatures. The DCA does not come with power axes, meaning you have no permission to place power axes on the model

If you disagree, provide actual rules.

I can not find this rule anywhere which you seem to say is CLEAR.

You actually build the model as allowed by what its rules entry says it is legally able to carry. If the rule was was as you state, Grey Hunter packs could never be equipped with melta guns. However, because the rules entry allows them to be equipped with melta guns, I am therefore allowed to model them.

The same applies to DCA. They may come from Citadel armed with swords/sword/dagger, but by their rules entry they are armed with power weapons. Swords are not the default power weapon for DCA, but instead that which is modeled on the DCA will fulfill the rules entry for power weapon.

Grugknuckle wrote:Speaking of conversions...I have seen those "my little pony" space marines in tournament. Albeit, small local tournaments.

How does that sit with you?

Continuing strawmans there. Amusingly the same one that was already tried.

You do understand the difference between conversions that rovide no advantage, and those that do? Its quite a simple concept.

It's only a 'strawman' argument if I some how insinuate that you made this argument. I'm not doing that dude. I'm simply asking you how you feel about using miniatures that were not citadel - since this is the rule you like to quote - and provide the ponies (heretics!) as an example. I'm not trying to impugn your character. Please provide me the same respect.

Can we leave the ponies out of it and start a new pony thread?

Toddler walking into the freeway here but two honest questions:

1) If you give the DCA one power axe and one power sword wouldn't it loose its +1 for a second CC weapon? One would have the unwieldy rule and to get the second attack both would need the unwieldy rule.

2) Where does the rules specify what a model is at all? I could use WHFB Skaven assasins for DCA if I wanted to. It just has to be a GW miniture and be on the right base.

Ok back to the flame war.