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 whembly wrote:
Me saying that you have a right to say it does NOT equate to being free from consequences...

So, what you're saying is you have a legal right to say whatever you want, but there should be legal repercussions for saying the wrong thing?

Huh?

Why have slander and libel laws if they're just words? Why have fighting words doctrine if they're just words? Do you think laws that can penalise people for the words they use are a good thing or a bad thing?

So you BLAME the bully for the death of that gay man?

Yes. Absolutely and unequivocally. At the moment this is a hypothetical, but I could dig up a few real cases if you want. I'm sure you're well aware enough of cases like this that I don't need to though.

 Kaldor wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Me saying that you have a right to say it does NOT equate to being free from consequences...

So, what you're saying is you have a legal right to say whatever you want, but there should be legal repercussions for saying the wrong thing?

Huh?

You're not quite there...

Point #1: What this kid posted on his own facebook wall was dispicable... and he should be roundly criticised for it. But, it's not jail worthy.

Point #2: We need to encourage folks to stand by what they said and even say, oops, my bad... sorry. But, we shouldn't be thrown into jail for these things.

Why have slander and libel laws if they're just words? Why have fighting words doctrine if they're just words? Do you think laws that can penalise people for the words they use are a good thing or a bad thing?

The Fighting Words doctrine, Libel and Slander are reserved for the most extreme cases as its REALLY difficult to get a win in court.

So you BLAME the bully for the death of that gay man?

Yes. Absolutely and unequivocally. At the moment this is a hypothetical, but I could dig up a few real cases if you want. I'm sure you're well aware enough of cases like this that I don't need to though.

 whembly wrote:
So you BLAME the bully for the death of that gay man?

Who else are you going to blam... ohhhh.

Clever girl.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 whembly wrote:
So you BLAME the bully for the death of that gay man?

Who else are you going to blam... ohhhh.

Clever girl.

I blame that person who commits suicide.

I really need to spell it all?

THE VICTIM

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
I really need to spell it all?

THE VICTIM

Right...

It's the VICTIM'S (the one who was bullied) faults for commiting suicide.

You take the fun out of abusing Dakka's meme.
Bad Whembly, bad.


ALTER PROBABILITIES!!!

(oki I'll just shut the hell up now)

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
You take the fun out of abusing Dakka's meme.
Bad Whembly, bad.


ALTER PROBABILITIES!!!

(oki I'll just shut the hell up now)

Sowey... blame d-use... really imbibed now... whhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

 whembly wrote:
The Fighting Words doctrine, Libel and Slander are reserved for the most extreme cases as its REALLY difficult to get a win in court.

So, should we have laws that penalise people for the words they say, or not?

If a woman falsely accuses a man of raping her, should she be penalised for those words?

If a witness lies in court, should he be penalised for those words?

The list goes on and on and on, but the question is the same. Should we penalise people for the things they say?

I totally disagree...

There's no reason whatsoever to take your own life.... and I've been Bullied.

Blatant victim blaming. And you see nothing wrong with that?

 Kaldor wrote:

 whembly wrote:
The Fighting Words doctrine, Libel and Slander are reserved for the most extreme cases as its REALLY difficult to get a win in court.

So, should we have laws that penalise people for the words they say, or not?

Kaldor... we have VERY strict restriction on free speech.

If anything this kid may have broken some ToS with Facebook that would allow Facebook to ban this kid from posting.

If a woman falsely accuses a man of raping her, should she be penalised for those words?

Not the same as what this kid did... but, this is SLANDER.

If a witness lies in court, should he be penalised for those words?

Not the same as what this kid did... but, this is PERJURY.

The list goes on and on and on, but the question is the same. Should we penalise people for the things they say?

Not in blanket statement... no.

Put it this way... that infamous youtube video that was blamed on the riots in Egypt...

That director was free to do this.... but, I'll also support a counter protest, statement against his works.

I totally disagree...

There's no reason whatsoever to take your own life.... and I've been Bullied.

Blatant victim blaming. And you see nothing wrong with that?

 whembly wrote:

Should we penalise people for the things they say?

no.

So you want to live in a society without laws like slander, libel, perjury, fighting words doctrine, false advertising, etc?

That would be an interesting social experiment, but not one I'd like to be a part of.

THERE. IS. NO. REASON. TO. TAKE. YOUR. LIFE. (period!)

So screw anyone who feels like that, amiright? Oh, and rape victims. There's no reason they can't all be black belts and carry guns, so anyone who gets raped must be asking for it, amiright?

You came through it without killing yourself. Many, many people don't. And clearly, it's their own fault for being so weak.

I can't believe the words I'm reading.

 Kaldor wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Should we penalise people for the things they say?

no.

So you want to live in a society without laws like slander, libel, perjury, fighting words doctrine, false advertising, etc?

That would be an interesting social experiment, but not one I'd like to be a part of.

You're not paying attention or I'm not adequately explaining...

We do live in a society with slander, libel, perjury, fighting words doctrine, false advertising... but, the standards to win these cases are HIGH... as it should be.

What this kid did on Facebook wouldn't have broken those laws... as it shouldn't.

THERE. IS. NO. REASON. TO. TAKE. YOUR. LIFE. (period!)

So screw anyone who feels like that, amiright?

Please stop putting words in my mouth m'kay?

Depression is a big fething deal and we should always help those in need... but, again... there's no reason for suicide.

Oh, and rape victims. There's no reason they can't all be black belts and carry guns, so anyone who gets raped must be asking for it, amiright?

How in the bloody hell did this turn into rape coversation? Are you equating what this kid said on his personal Facebook Wall to rape?

I stole this, as this is what I'm feeling now after that statement:

You came through it without killing yourself. Many, many people don't. And clearly, it's their own fault for being so weak.

I can't believe the words I'm reading.

WTH.........

 whembly wrote:
I'm not adequately explaining...

No, I get it. You don't want any laws that penalise anyone for anything they say.

I just think that's absolutely insane.

How in the bloody hell did this turn into rape coversation?

Because you're blaming the victim. It's the victims fault they weren't strong enough. It doesn't matter if it was continued systematic verbal/written abuse, or rape. If the victim couldn't handle it, it's the victims fault. That's exactly what you're saying here:

 whembly wrote:
If they weren't weak, would they have *been a victim*?

Here's a protip: It's not the victims fault.

If I get mugged, it's not my fault for not being Chuck Norris. If I get hit by a drunk driver, it's not my fault for being on the road. If I get burgled, it's not my fault for not having a better security system. If I get bullied, and take my own life, IT'S NOT MY FAULT for not being tough enough to handle it.

If I get mugged, it's not my fault for not being Chuck Norris. If I get hit by a drunk driver, it's not my fault for being on the road. If I get burgled, it's not my fault for not having a better security system. If I get bullied, and take my own life, IT'S NOT MY FAULT for not being tough enough to handle it.

Since I'm catching the tail end of this.....debate....your speaking sarcasticaly right?

 Kaldor wrote:

 whembly wrote:
I'm not adequately explaining...

No, I get it. You don't want any laws that penalise anyone for anything they say.

I just think that's absolutely insane.

I'll try again...

You should be free to say/write anything UNLESS it meets the threshold for libel, slander, etc, legally.

I should also note that just because you're "free" to say something... someone else is "free" to retort.

You have freedom of speech, not FROM speech.

How in the bloody hell did this turn into rape coversation?

Because you're blaming the victim. It's the victims fault they weren't strong enough. It doesn't matter if it was continued systematic verbal/written abuse, or rape. If the victim couldn't handle it, it's the victims fault. That's exactly what you're saying here:

 whembly wrote:
If they weren't weak, would they have *been a victim*?

You're changing my quote...

So, lemme get this straight... you're equating what that kid wrote on his facebook wall to rape/abuse?

Here's a protip: It's not the victims fault.

If you commit suicide, then yes, it's your fault.

If I get mugged, it's not my fault for not being Chuck Norris.

Strawman... a crime was comitted against you... duh.

If I get hit by a drunk driver, it's not my fault for being on the road.

Strawman... a crime was committed... duh, don't drink and drive

If I get burgled, it's not my fault for not having a better security system.

Strawman... a crime was commited... duh, dats your stuff!

If I get bullied, and take my own life, IT'S NOT MY FAULT for not being tough enough to handle it.

 whembly wrote:
You should be free to say/write anything UNLESS it meets the threshold for libel, slander, etc, legally.

So, we SHOULD have laws that penalise us for what we say?

Great. I agree.



Re: victim blaming -

Why is it not my fault for getting mugged, but it is my fault for being bullied into suicide? I really don't understand how you can force that disconnect in your mind.

 Kaldor wrote:
So, we SHOULD have laws that penalise us for what we say?

Yes. They should be the bare minimum required for society to function, though, not protection from people being offended or getting their feelings hurt.

Why is it not my fault for getting mugged, but it is my fault for being bullied into suicide? I really don't understand how you can force that disconnect in your mind.

Most people, as far as I'm aware, aren't wizards with the power to control minds.

 Seaward wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:
So, we SHOULD have laws that penalise us for what we say?

Yes. They should be the bare minimum required for society to function, though, not protection from people being offended or getting their feelings hurt.

Absolutely. I consider being able to go about day-to-day activities without the threat of extreme verbal or written abuse to fairly essential to a functioning society.

Most people, as far as I'm aware, aren't wizards with the power to control minds.

Only a wizard could influence the way someone thinks?

2/10. Try harder.

 Kaldor wrote:
Absolutely. I consider being able to go about day-to-day activities without the threat of extreme verbal or written abuse to fairly essential to a functioning society.

See, I prefer not to live in a nanny state.

Only a wizard could influence the way someone thinks?

2/10. Try harder.

Okay. Could you tell us the secret code words that would force you into nothing but committing suicide?

 Seaward wrote:

See, I prefer not to live in a nanny state.

Whatever blows your hair back, son.

Only a wizard could influence the way someone thinks?

2/10. Try harder.

Okay. Could you tell us the secret code words that would force you into nothing but committing suicide?

 Kaldor wrote:

Why don't you ask Megan or Phoebe?

Oh, you can't. Guess they were just too weak to make it in life, huh?

Strange how the bullies were charged, convicted and sentenced. How's your freedoms now?

Just fine. None of them were charged for hurting someone's feelings.

My question was about you, though. If bullying can make individuals kill themselves, what are your secret passwords?

 Seaward wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

Why don't you ask Megan or Phoebe?

Oh, you can't. Guess they were just too weak to make it in life, huh?

Strange how the bullies were charged, convicted and sentenced. How's your freedoms now?

Just fine. None of them were charged for hurting someone's feelings.

My question was about you, though. If bullying can make individuals kill themselves, what are your secret passwords?

I don't know. I've never been subjected to months or years of protracted bullying.

But it absolutely happens. I just linked you to two instances where it happened, where the people doing the bullying were arrested, charged and convicted because of said bullying. The law still has some catching up to do, but it's getting there. Cases like Megan Meier and Phoebe Prince usually result in calls for more or tighter legislation. But I don't need to repeat the articles here, just go and read them.

Can't we agree bullying is different then offensive speech? With bullying it's speech with malicious intent usually combined with physical abuse. Even if it's just spoken it's mental abuse and more akin to Slander or Libel then it is to me saying something offensive about Jesus or Mohammed in a public place and me hurting someone's feelings.

 Kaldor wrote:
But it absolutely happens. I just linked you to two instances where it happened, where the people doing the bullying were arrested, charged and convicted because of said bullying. The law still has some catching up to do, but it's getting there. Cases like Megan Meier and Phoebe Prince usually result in calls for more or tighter legislation. But I don't need to repeat the articles here, just go and read them.

No, you didn't.

You linked me two cases where people were charged, in one case, with fraud, and in another with statutory rape, stalking, and a whole host of other charges, none of them bullying. The people in question were bullying; they were not charged with bullying. It's almost like there are enough laws out there to cover genuine criminal behavior, which is yet another good reason why we shouldn't criminalize hurting someone's feelings.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-19911943

Arsepiece writes offensive crap on his T-Shirt the day these two police are killed. He looks like a dole warrior and nob end, but he shouldn't be going to jail.

If those poppy burning Islamists just got a fine for doing that and shouting "British troops burn in hell" on Armistice day, then why is this guy facing jail time.

Ridiculous.

 Medium of Death wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-19911943

Arsepiece writes offensive crap on his T-Shirt the day these two police are killed. He looks like a dole warrior and nob end, but he shouldn't be going to jail.

If those poppy burning Islamists just got a fine for doing that and shouting "British troops burn in hell" on Armistice day, then why is this guy facing jail time.

Ridiculous.

Blame New Labour, mate. Their time in power represented a massive sustained assault on civil liberties. Further reading here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Taking-Liberties-Chris-Atkins/dp/1905978030
If you can get past the rather naff attempts at 'comedy', there's actually some really chilling stuff in there.

 Medium of Death wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-19911943

Arsepiece writes offensive crap on his T-Shirt the day these two police are killed. He looks like a dole warrior and nob end, but he shouldn't be going to jail.

If those poppy burning Islamists just got a fine for doing that and shouting "British troops burn in hell" on Armistice day, then why is this guy facing jail time.

Ridiculous.

Once again, I concur. The guys a scum bag, but not a send him to jail scumbag.

Freedom of speech is under attack. Next thing you know, we wont be allowed to point out how inherently prejudiced Islam is towards women and gay people!

The point is, a lot of this legislation was brought in to supposedly fight against terrorism, but was quickly co-opted by police because it makes their jobs easier. Blair and co. brought in legislation that literally allowed coppers to arrest anyone for anything.

 Albatross wrote:
The point is, a lot of this legislation was brought in to supposedly fight against terrorism, but was quickly co-opted by police because it makes their jobs easier. Blair and co. brought in legislation that literally allowed coppers to arrest anyone for anything.

Such a complex world we live in.. as I said, it takes integrity and backbone to not practice staggering hypocrisy in these situations, and I suppose thats why they occur. I'm sure that all of the people who support jailing this dick head (probably most people) would happily support jailing a Muslim for saying "Kill all White British make UK Sharia!" etc etc

Its down the chaps like you and I to point out that its only freedom of speech if you stick up for the unpopular! The popular speech doesn't NEED defending because everyone agrees with it.

As a man who supports the Muslims rights to say anything at all, I must also say I find this fethers treatment deplorable.

Its logical to allow this kind of thing, when a fool is running his mouth off, he identifies himself as an idiot to all and sundry. I don't want horrible bastards to be quiet, and I want them to keep on talking so we can keep an eye on the bastards!