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Blame New Labour, mate. Their time in power represented a massive sustained assault on civil liberties. Further reading here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Taking-Liberties-Chris-Atkins/dp/1905978030 If you can get past the rather naff attempts at 'comedy', there's actually some really chilling stuff in there.
Going to have a look at that sir, the movie is on youtube in various parts so i'll have a gander there first.
On a completely unrelated but useful point, The Thick of It is back on tonight after a strange 2/3 week break. Yaaasss!
With nothing else to do today after my bike ride, I've just sat chugged some beers and watched that whole Taking Liberties film. It started off alright just pointing out some silly gak laws that have been passed.. and then rapidly defended into hippy propaganda.
What a pile of gak, also, I noticed that on the list of named people extradited to the USA from Britain they named Al Zarqawi?!
Now, the only one I remember is the mother fether who got blown to bits when I was in Iraq.. so I think they were fully making things up as well.
Also, most of the bastards that were being held I fully agreed with, and half of the "Britons" that were held were not actually British, they were just assorted Libyans, Algerians and Bangladeshis that frankly, I couldn't give a feth about anyway.. there is no smoke without fire don't you know. And of the ones that actually are British born and bred, one of them was in Afghanistan during a war on a "fishing holiday"?! Pull the fething other one!
Until they actually start arresting people for nothing (they don't) I will take it all with a fistfull of salt.
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
Kilkrazy wrote: I wonder if it is possible that two different muslims might have the same surname.
Actually very likely. The general shortlist of common names used in the Islamic world is less than those used in the west, and thats not including wierd stuff like the names chavs and celebs call their kids.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Kilkrazy wrote: I wonder if it is possible that two different muslims might have the same surname.
Actually very likely. The general shortlist of common names used in the Islamic world is less than those used in the west, and thats not including wierd stuff like the names chavs and celebs call their kids.
Yeah obviously! I did a google though naturally, no other Al Zarqawi's s I could find other than the horrible fether that I remember getting toasted. If it was a British citizen extradited, I presume I would have been able to find a story about it on the BBC.
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
How come when I act needlessly facetious you ban me for it? Surely if you have any integrity at all you should hold yourself up to the standards you demand of others?
I mean, its painfully obvious that you don't, but you could pretend for appearances sake.
At least I had a go at searching, and considering that pretty much every documentary has its own angle to promote, my premise, that a documentary may have lied to promote its own message due to the fact that I recognise a name and a second person with the same name hasn't appeared in the public forum, perfectly logical.
Although, as I happily and openly said I wasn't a 100% sure and it was simply an observation Im happy to be proven wrong, so if you have an actual comment, link, or piece of evidence to suggest I'm incorrect I'm more than happy to hold my hands up.
Unless you are just trolling me of course.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/13 19:59:13
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
Okay. Could you tell us the secret code words that would force you into nothing but committing suicide?
This is one of the stupidest false choice ever offered. People cannot be influenced because there's no 'specific' wording that will force them into commiting suicide? And this is why you beleive that psychological distress cannot be caused?
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
Okay. Could you tell us the secret code words that would force you into nothing but committing suicide?
This is one of the stupidest false choice ever offered. People cannot be influenced because there's no 'specific' wording that will force them into commiting suicide? And this is why you beleive that psychological distress cannot be caused?
It sounds to me like Monty Pythons lethal joke sketch.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Kovnik Obama wrote: This is one of the stupidest false choice ever offered. People cannot be influenced because there's no 'specific' wording that will force them into commiting suicide? And this is why you beleive that psychological distress cannot be caused?
I believe you cannot cause a mentally healthy adult enough psychological distress through nothing more than saying mean things to cause them to commit suicide, yes. If you truly wish to contend that someone could hurt your feelings enough that you'd kill yourself, I'd be curious as to what it would take. That's my question. No one's been up for answering it so far, which suggests to me that I'm on the right path.
Kovnik Obama wrote: This is one of the stupidest false choice ever offered. People cannot be influenced because there's no 'specific' wording that will force them into commiting suicide? And this is why you beleive that psychological distress cannot be caused?
I believe you cannot cause a mentally healthy adult enough psychological distress through nothing more than saying mean things to cause them to commit suicide, yes. If you truly wish to contend that someone could hurt your feelings enough that you'd kill yourself, I'd be curious as to what it would take. That's my question. No one's been up for answering it so far, which suggests to me that I'm on the right path.
Mate, its trivially easy to prove you wrong. Just google "bullying" for feths sake!
I was in CA last year and there was a story all over the news about a middle aged mom who was jailed for making a fake facebook profile to verbally abuse a teenage girl who wound up topping herself. If you took the time to look, ill warrant there are thousands of cases where a simple endless barrage of sustained abuse can lead to it. There have been numerous cases where people have been ganged up on in an office environment or some such and sustained to prolonged abuse and harassment and the next thing they get found swinging somewhere.
Now, you can certainly argue about the personality of the people that do it, or suggest perhaps there are other factors to consider, I mean, I bet that most people don't concern themselves so much with verbal abuse that it affects their health, certainly if I worked in an office and 4 or 5 of my coworkers were harassing me i'd just give them gak back, Id probably quite enjoy myself, I like thinking up colourful insults for people or photocopying my testicles and sending a copy to all of their mothers or something else suitably mature, but honestly you can't possibly make the argument that it doesn't happen, because sadly you hear about this type of thing all the time.
Not everyone is as mentally robust as the next man.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/14 08:23:46
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
mattyrm wrote: Mate, its trivially easy to prove you wrong. Just google "bullying" for feths sake!
I was in CA last year and there was a story all over the news about a middle aged mom who was jailed for making a fake facebook profile to verbally abuse a teenage girl who wound up topping herself. If you took the time to look, ill warrant there are thousands of cases where a simple endless barrage of sustained abuse can lead to it. There have been numerous cases where people have been ganged up on in an office environment or some such and sustained to prolonged abuse and harassment and the next thing they get found swinging somewhere.
Now, you can certainly argue about the personality of the people that do it, or suggest perhaps there are other factors to consider, I mean, I bet that most people don't concern themselves so much with verbal abuse that it affects their health, certainly if I worked in an office and 4 or 5 of my coworkers were harassing me i'd just give them gak back, Id probably quite enjoy myself, I like thinking up colourful insults for people or photocopying my testicles and sending a copy to all of their mothers or something else suitably mature, but honestly you can't possibly make the argument that it doesn't happen, because sadly you hear about this type of thing all the time.
Not everyone is as mentally robust as the next man.
That's a fairly famous story out of Missouri, though I'm surprised you heard about it last year. I thought it was several years ago.
Either way, I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. If someone wants to go to the trouble of creating a bunch of sockpuppet accounts, creating identities to impersonate, and enlisting the aid of others to wage a dedicated campaign of psychological torture, yes, it's possible they'll get some teenagers to kill themselves. It's not what I would define - or what I meant - when I said that no mentally healthy adult will commit suicide because someone said something mean to them. That is going far beyond "saying something mean." And there are already laws under which you could be prosecuted covering such behavior in the US, so we don't need UK-style "hurt feelings" legislation.
You know, call me old-fashioned if you wish, but I rather enjoyed it when we had freedom of speech in this country. It was, after all, the main thing that people would point to and say that made up better than any of the dictatorships: There are so many people that any one of them having a vote is unlikely to make a difference, and we weren't perfect when it came to having an open and honest government, but at least we could say what we liked. You could even argue that it was the main reason for the world wars, the ability to say what we liked about anything rather than being locked up for saying "I don't think being gay is wrong!"
Yes, bullying is wrong. Yes, it can cause suicide, all manner of mental scarring... I know, I've experienced bullying. But surely the solution is simply to educate people to the point where they don't bully, rather than punishing them for saying something? The fault lies with the parents and teachers, not with the trolls who simply don't understand that it's wrong!
What's sadly hilarious is that this isn't even a case of bullying, it's a case of a dude saying something on his personal Facebook page and being tossed in jail for it. Whether or not you think we should jail people who tell others they do not like their hairstyle, and in so doing cause the individual with the unfortunate hairstyle to commit suicide, this is more a case of a guy telling his buddies he didn't like the hairstyle of some dude he saw walking down the street earlier today, and being thrown in jail on the off chance the dude ever somehow hears it.
Seaward wrote: What's sadly hilarious is that this isn't even a case of bullying, it's a case of a dude saying something on his personal Facebook page and being tossed in jail for it. Whether or not you think we should jail people who tell others they do not like their hairstyle, and in so doing cause the individual with the unfortunate hairstyle to commit suicide, this is more a case of a guy telling his buddies he didn't like the hairstyle of some dude he saw walking down the street earlier today, and being thrown in jail on the off chance the dude ever somehow hears it.
Hey I'm not even arguing the toss on that score, I don't agree with people being jailed for saying nasty gak, I was merely pointing out that yes, some people will top themselves if they get some verbal and you are wrong on that point. You don't have to be beating people up to get them to want to toss back some pills and hoy themselves in front of a train.
As I've said several times, I disagree entirely with jailing people for saying nasty gak, and I said the exact same when they jailed a Muslim for burning poppies and saying he was dancing a jig on soldiers graves or whatever the feth he did. I am fully in agreement with you.
What I am saying though is that its not a black and white issue, mention the F word and you lot get your knickers in a twist because you are raised on a diet of "freedom" this and "freedom" that incessantly. I certainly don't feel as though I can't say what I want in the UK, my facebook page is an endless tirade of abuse and I've never had a bobby come round. I think that you need to be saying some really fethed up stuff to wind up in court, so I'm not massively bothered personally, but yes I do agree with you.
I'm also saying that there is no point in acting like school kids going "my country is better than yours" as some people are doing, because no nation has a monopoly on freedom. Sometimes I shake my head in disbelief at what happens here, other times me and my missus laugh about the draconian gak in America. Its swings and roundabouts. As I've said many times before, none of us are really "free" its a fething illusion that you lads like to keep repeating because it makes you feel better, but if we elect someone and they do the exact opposite of everything they say they will.. then we all have to suck on it and there is jack gak you can do about it. You still have to obey thousands of rules, you still have to toe the line, try not paying your taxes and see how free you are.
Further adding to this complex mess, I really hate it when in Britain we have to let people that are clearly absolute scumbags out of prison because unlike America, we can't detain people indefinitely without charge, so sometimes I feel like some freedoms suck. I mean, theres no smoke without fire, they really aren't going to detain someone like me who has no real agenda despite the slippery slope arguments. The suspension of habeas corpus in the states bothered me not at all frankly.
Like I say, freedom is just a word. At the end of the day, as long as I am free to do the 8 or 9 things I enjoy in life relatively unmolested, then thats free enough for me. Frankly if some bloke has been held without charge for 2 years but its clearly obvious that there are a laundry list of offences that could be linked to the bloke, then I couldn't give a feth about the fething fether!
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
p_gray99 wrote: There are so many people that any one of them having a vote is unlikely to make a difference, and we weren't perfect when it came to having an open and honest government, but at least we could say what we liked. You could even argue that it was the main reason for the world wars, the ability to say what we liked about anything rather than being locked up for saying "I don't think being gay is wrong!"
@Matty
I agree with most of your points about that documentary, but I'm still pretty concerned about the protests and police quoting the terrorism act to scare people away. Police asking for your details which they have absolutely no right to know. Ultimately it gets resolved at the high court but that costs as gak ton of money, when it's fairly obvious that it shouldn't need to go that far.
The biggest problem that I have with it all is your right to protest being infringed. It's more concerning to me because British people seem to be loosing more freedoms while everything is pissed away on the EU, Immigrants, Tax Dodgers and Dole Warriors.
The book goes in to more detail, cites sources and interviews people from across the political spectrum. And yes, police were granted the power to arrest and detain anyone who did anything 'suspicious', a word which could apply to almost anything. I mean, someone got nicked for reading aloud an article from Cosmopolitan (iirc) that was critical of the Blair government.
Albatross wrote: The book goes in to more detail, cites sources and interviews people from across the political spectrum. And yes, police were granted the power to arrest and detain anyone who did anything 'suspicious', a word which could apply to almost anything. I mean, someone got nicked for reading aloud an article from Cosmopolitan (iirc) that was critical of the Blair government.
These people must not be allowed back into power.
All I know about Cosmopolitan is it gives really bad relationship and sex advice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/14 20:03:13
All I know about Cosmopolitan is it gives really bad relationship and sex advice.
Cosmo isn't about the advices and tips. It's about making your girlfriend read dirty stories in an acceptable format. I swear, my ex would go all blushy about 10 minutes after getting her issue. 30 minutes later it was ''hump till your knees bleed time!''
Damn satin sheets.
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
Kaldor wrote: A young gay man is bullied at school and at home until he takes his own life. He was weak, they were just words.
Exactly this. He was weak. They are just words.
Yeah, and I guess it was the Jews fault they didn't resist the Nazis. Their fault for being weak, huh?
That's the logic here, isn't it? If we aren't able to resist an aggressor, we are weak and deserve our fate?
"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?"
Isn't there something out there about how the purpose of society is to provide a fair, safe and just existence for all as opposed to pure Darwinism? You know the natural state of man where we run around with clubs and smack each other in the skull till one of us stops twitching to see who gets the most meat and women?
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
Kaldor wrote: A young gay man is bullied at school and at home until he takes his own life. He was weak, they were just words.
Exactly this. He was weak. They are just words.
Yeah, and I guess it was the Jews fault they didn't resist the Nazis. Their fault for being weak, huh?
That's the logic here, isn't it? If we aren't able to resist an aggressor, we are weak and deserve our fate?
This makes no sense. The jews were not captured for being weak. They were very strong. And also, many of them did resist...
The logic is that someone who kills him/herself over verbal bullying is usually weak and or unstable. I would never EVER think of anything like that. You ever here of the saying "Sticks and Stones may hurt my bones, but words will never hurt me?" Some people need to learn that that is true. Words are not actions. I'm not saying that words can't change things in this sort of way, I'm saying they shouldn't be able to. People who are offended and really hurt by WORDS should be put into treatment.
That's false from every single point of view. There is a whole field of linguistics which is entirely dedicated to the analysis of the pragmatic side of langage.
I'm not saying that words can't change things in this sort of way, I'm saying they shouldn't be able to. People who are offended and really hurt by WORDS should be put into treatment.
By opposition to people who go out of their way to hurt and offend others?
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
