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Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut





Ross74H wrote:
I have only used the LRBT and the demolisher. Even then i dont have much luck with the dice so reluctant to try out the others.

Mind you, I run mine sponsonless as well!


Why dont you take sponsons?

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 Tomten wrote:
Ross74H wrote:
I have only used the LRBT and the demolisher. Even then i dont have much luck with the dice so reluctant to try out the others.

Mind you, I run mine sponsonless as well!


Why dont you take sponsons?


Because of the ordnance rule. Please read the entire thread for context before replying.

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Ohio

Ross74H wrote:
I have only used the LRBT and the demolisher. Even then i dont have much luck with the dice so reluctant to try out the others.

Mind you, I run mine sponsonless as well!


I used to run some demolishers but they were targeted fast and with their short range usually got 1 shot before they were assaulted and died.

So lately Ive only run the LRBT, and I also dont equip them with sponsons. Just received an exterminator and will probably run it with lascannon and heavy bolter sponsons.

Executioner is powerful but if it scatters to much and doesnt get enough hits it may not get its points back and becomes to expensive.

 
   
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Junior Officer with Laspistol





tankboy145 wrote:
*Insert any blast Russ here* is powerful but if it scatters too much and doesn't get enough hits it may not get its points back and becomes too expensive.


That's not really a valid argument for not taking one. I've had games where my LRBT hasn't done a thing, it's rare but my last game against BA and tyranids come to mind. Doesn't stop me from taking one, especially considering people spend a lot of time shooting it even if it does scatter constantly. In fact the Executioner can benefit from scatters more than the others because of the small template.


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Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut





Is it better to take a heavy stubber? I mean that if you get a weapon destroyed then its a 50% chance that your big gun goes away but if you take a heavy stubber then its just a 33% chance.

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Flashy Flashgitz




USA

To destroy a weapon, they need to penetrate, then roll one specific number- an approximate 17% chance AFTER you suffer a penetrating hit. Penetrating a Russ is difficult as long as you don't shoot it from behind. Plus, you have another 50% buffer from your hull weapon. So no, it's not worth the points to get a heavy stubber just to improve your chance of retaining your turret weapon. The only Russ I'd consider putting a stubber on would be the Punisher. You know, dakka dakka dakka dakka dakka...dakka?



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Hedkrakka wrote:
To destroy a weapon, they need to penetrate, then roll one specific number- an approximate 17% chance AFTER you suffer a penetrating hit.


Indeed, the same odds as blowing it up, which is why I don't take the whole "you need to protect the main weapon" arguments very seriously.


Star Trek taught me so much. Like, how you should accept people, whether they be black, white, Klingon or even female...

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Regular Dakkanaut





So you just take a naked LR?

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Tokyo, Japan

Exterminator with LC + HB sponsons. Force the HB wounds on the meat shield units alot of squishy armies put up front and then froce them to take the AC or LC wounds on their HQ which might be next closest before you know it.

+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.


 
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut





 sudojoe wrote:
Exterminator with LC + HB sponsons. Force the HB wounds on the meat shield units alot of squishy armies put up front and then froce them to take the AC or LC wounds on their HQ which might be next closest before you know it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its just 6 shots which 3 Will probably hit. Its not great anti infantry.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/28 17:55:13


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Battleship Captain





NYC

 Tomten wrote:
 sudojoe wrote:
Exterminator with LC + HB sponsons. Force the HB wounds on the meat shield units alot of squishy armies put up front and then froce them to take the AC or LC wounds on their HQ which might be next closest before you know it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its just 6 shots which 3 Will probably hit. Its not great anti infantry.


Yeah. Not to mention the AC is hardly an HQ killer.

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Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut





But the LRBT can kill almost everything.

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USA

 Tomten wrote:
But the LRBT can kill almost everything.


It can, but it can completely miss, too. The Exterminator doesn't miss. That's the main reason to take it (not that it's better than the LRBT). Much less destructive potential with the main gun, but more reliability and ability to play with sponson and hull weapon options.

Naked LRBTs are best value for the points if you're going for flexibility IMO. I have a star-crossed love for the Exterminator, and it works too, but it's a little more points heavy due to the upgrades it needs.



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Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Hedkrakka wrote:
 Tomten wrote:
But the LRBT can kill almost everything.


It can, but it can completely miss, too. The Exterminator doesn't miss. That's the main reason to take it (not that it's better than the LRBT). Much less destructive potential with the main gun, but more reliability and ability to play with sponson and hull weapon options.

Naked LRBTs are best value for the points if you're going for flexibility IMO. I have a star-crossed love for the Exterminator, and it works too, but it's a little more points heavy due to the upgrades it needs.


The LRBT rarely misses with the generous blast rules and the way cover works now. Since cover is on a model-by-model basis rather than a unit basis, then the enemy must bunch up into small clusters if they all want to fit behind cover, which means that the template can get upwards of 8 hits on a squad. If they wish to spread out (limiting the templates to ~3 hits minimum) then some of the models will be out of cover to be focus-fired by some other portion of your army (for example, plasma-gun veterans).
   
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 Unit1126PLL wrote:

The LRBT rarely misses with the generous blast rules and the way cover works now. Since cover is on a model-by-model basis rather than a unit basis, then the enemy must bunch up into small clusters if they all want to fit behind cover, which means that the template can get upwards of 8 hits on a squad. If they wish to spread out (limiting the templates to ~3 hits minimum) then some of the models will be out of cover to be focus-fired by some other portion of your army (for example, plasma-gun veterans).

That may be true, but still, the Exterminator hits more reliably-a multiple-shot TL weapon is statistically more likely to hit than a scattering blast template. That's not to say it's better, as I have explained in my post. It's basically a large anti-MEQ blast vs. a generalist main gun+hull weapon/sponson support. It's a matter of taste.



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Vallejo, CA

MajorStoffer wrote:That being said, the Punisher is not a versatile unit; it's more or less useless against vehicles, it's ok at anti-horde, and to an MEQ army, they're probably the least dangerous of all the Russ variants, but they remain a solid "ok" across the board.


Hedkrakka wrote:The HB Punisher is only better at really close range against infantry targets, and is comparatively poor against AV11 transports, and can't hurt AV12 at all.

I thought I'd address both of these together.

You can certainly set up parameters wherein punishers look bad compared to other russes, but what you look at it more holistically, the punisher rules. Anything within 30" (don't forget they can move and fire) is a target, and with good sponsons, they can beat the hell out of anything.

Yes, the exterminator can certainly handle AV12 better than a punisher, but the exterminator still isn't great against AV12. Bring that armor value down to 10, and the punisher easily wins the contest. Shoot one at a venom some time, and you'll see just how much damage they can do.

Yes, the executioner can get more kills on bunched up terminators at 40" away, but lets present a more realistic situation. Terminators are much more likely than not to be closer than that, and with their larger base, it's pretty darn easy to displace out to one model hit per hit rolled. And then they get their invul save. A punisher beats executioners against terminators in most circumstances.

The list goes on. It's better against MEq in most circumstances than a LRBT. It's better against MCs than anything in the codex. Pretty much the only common thing that the punisher doesn't hands-down beat is infantry in cover relative to the eradicator and multi-wound T5 infantry as the demolisher. You can find a few circumstances where the punisher is relatively worse than any given specific other variant, but most of the time, they're just doing more damage.

Throw on good hull weapons, and they're hurting anything, and with a non-ordnance, they can fire everything at once, which is terribly convenient against things like fliers and monstrous creatures and... well... anything that both a multimelta and a heavy bolter equivalent is capable of damaging.

Which is a lot.

Which is why they're not only versatile, but a good idea.


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Punisher, vs. AV10: 10*(1/2)*(1/3) = 3.33 hp, 1.67 pens
Exterminator, vs. AV10: 4*(3/4)*(2/3) = 2 hp, 1.5 pens

Punisher, vs. AV11: 10*(1/2)*(1/6) = 1.67 hp, 0.0 pens
Exterminator, vs. AV11: 4*(3/4)*(1/2) = 1.5 hp, 1.0 pens

Punisher, vs. AV12: lol
Exterminator, vs. AV12: 4*(3/4)*(1/3) = 1hp, 0.5 pens

So for anti-vehicular purposes, the Exterminator is a more reliable choice, since it can actually manage to do something respectable against middling armor values. And since it's also 40 points cheaper...

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/12/30 00:11:27


 
   
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Vallejo, CA

... but the punisher is better against AV10.

Plus, don't forget sponsons. Yes, if you give anti-tank sponsons to both exterminators and punishers, the exterminator will still always be better against AV12 and 11. The punisher is still going to be good against these targets, properly equipped, and, more importantly, are always still going to be equal to or better against the exterminator against literally everything else in the game.

Which is why it's 30 points more expensive, and why it's more versatile.




This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/30 00:16:26


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USA

 Ailaros wrote:
... but the punisher is better against AV10.

Plus, don't forget sponsons. Yes, if you give anti-tank sponsons to both exterminators and punishers, the exterminator will still always be better against AV12 and 11. The punisher is still going to be good against these targets, properly equipped, and, more importantly, are always still going to be equal to or better against the exterminator against literally everything else in the game.

Which is why it's 30 points more expensive, and why it's more versatile.

Oh, the Punisher gets sponsons. So what? So does the Exterminator. I fail to see what difference sponsons make when the options and costs are the same. When comparing non-ordnance Russes, what you should be doing is comparing the main guns. And I'm sorry, but a gun with 24" range, AP- and no way to hurt AV12 at all can't be described as "versatile" by any stretch of imagination.

Killing infantry, especially light infantry, is the area of specialization of the Punisher, so of course it's going to be better than the generalist Exterminator against them, but the Exterminator can hurt a wider range of targets (i.e. AV12), thus making it more versatile, without even considering the differences in cost and range.

Remember that 30 points means three more meltaguns or two more Lascannons, and with a 48" range, the Exterminator will always have something worthwhile to shoot at, even late in the game, a feature which the Punisher simply can't match.



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Vallejo, CA

I don't know how I can make this much more clear.

An exterminator with anti-tank sponsons and a punisher with anti-tank sponsons are both equally good against AV13+, and are both pretty good at AV10-12, even though there is a slight quality difference one way or the other depending on which specific AV we're talking about.

Put another way, they're roughly the same against most vehicles in this configuration.

And then the punisher is way better against everything else.


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Flashy Flashgitz




USA

The comparison makes no sense because you can get the same thing everywhere, the differences are the rear AV, range, cost and most importantly, the main gun. The Exterminator wins convincingly at all but the first of these points, and is thus the better option for versatility. The kitted Punisher may be better, I would dispute that claim too, but that would be the topic of another thread.



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Manchester, UK

Hedkrakka wrote:
Remember that 30 points means three more meltaguns or two more Lascannons...


I really dislike these sort of statements. This is only true if you already have the carriers in your list but for some reason didn't use their weapon slots. You are not taking into account the carrier cost. If you had said "upgrade 6 flamers to meltas", that would have made sense. You never really get the chance to pay 30 points for some meltaguns.

Sorry, it just annoys me.

As for the russ, I am coming to the conclusion that none of the variants are rubbish, they all have good and bad points. The punisher may be slightly over costed, but that is probably because people would have been crying that it was broken if it was 20-30 points cheaper.

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USA

 Trickstick wrote:

Sorry, it just annoys me.

That statement is just an example. I'll avoid similar examples in the future just for you. That said, I'd encourage you to work on your annoyance threshold.



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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

45 points can get you a lascannon and a pair of meltaguns, sure.

45 points could also get you a lascannon and two MULTIMELTAS, all on an AV14 platform that can move and shoot.

Hull weapons on a leman russ are a steal. Some of the best value weapon upgrades you can take.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/30 04:16:11


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USA

 Ailaros wrote:
45 points can get you a lascannon and a pair of meltaguns, sure.

45 points could also get you a lascannon and two MULTIMELTAS, all on an AV14 platform that can move and shoot.

Hull weapons on a leman russ are a steal. Some of the best value weapon upgrades you can take.

True.

I'm tired of saying this, but the Exterminator has the same options for the same additional cost, and thus these constitute no advantage over the Exterminator.



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Vallejo, CA

You said that the advantage of the exterminator is against AV12 which the punisher can't hurt. The punisher can hurt AV12 if it has sponsons. Therefore, it's not a valid argument.

Furthermore, if we're comparing both tanks with sponsons, the exterminator is only a bit better against AV11 and 12. Meanwhile, the punisher is much better against everything else.

Take the exterminator if you are willing to sacrifice being good against lots of things in order to be slightly better at a narrower range of things. Of course, you're going to be taking a vehicle that is less versatile.


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Having a weapon that is "effective" against tanks and a weapon that is great against light infantry doesn't make you versatile.

A versatile unit should:
1-Never sit around, find something to shoot at every turn or at least threaten multiple enemy units,
2-Have weapons that are individually effective against multiple enemy types (i.e. not a collection of weapons that are effective against different enemy types),
3-Be able to respond to changes in the battlefield situation effectively.

The Punisher fails at all three points.
1-Its range is limited, thus it often can't find stuff to shoot at effectively. You'll likely argue that you add a hull lascannon, but a single LC shot isn't worth it for 195 pts+sponsons, even on a heavy AV14 chassis. Everything else only works at short ranges, unless you take HB/PC sponsons.
2-The Punisher Gattling Cannon is only effective against light/medium armored infantry and AV10 vehicles, which are rare unless you're facing Land Speeder spam, Orks or DE. Taking sponsons that are potentially effective vs. tanks doesn't negate this problem. You should also ask yourself if two BS3 MM that may or may not be able to see the target are effective AT anyway.
3-Being slow and lacking in reach, the Punisher can't react to anything. You simply go after your initial objectives or drift without a target for several turns.

Consider the fact that you're constantly ignoring the cost of the punisher, and that the same sponsons have the same effect on the other chassis with a gun that can take anything except AV14. So, the range and comparatively limited scope of the main gun makes the Punisher less versatile than the Exterminator (and indeed, other Russ variants).

Again, that's not saying that the Punisher is bad-quite the contrary. It's just that the Punisher has nothing to do with versatility-quite the contrary, it's quite specialized and it does its specific task very well.



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I find it hilarious that the best example for the punishers AT capability is against cheap fast transports and skimmers. Especially the DE ones which will have NS meaning your main gun will likely never fire a round at it. If your firing it at an ork truck your going to lose the game because your playing orks and you chose to fire a punisher canon at a truck lol. If dealing with speeders they will get the drop first with a MM more then likely. I like the punisher but it is insane to claim it has decent AA or AT capability, it's great for infantry just make a dakka boat.

   
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USA

 Red Corsair wrote:
I find it hilarious that the best example for the punishers AT capability is against cheap fast transports and skimmers. Especially the DE ones which will have NS meaning your main gun will likely never fire a round at it. If your firing it at an ork truck your going to lose the game because your playing orks and you chose to fire a punisher canon at a truck lol. If dealing with speeders they will get the drop first with a MM more then likely. I like the punisher but it is insane to claim it has decent AA or AT capability, it's great for infantry just make a dakka boat.

+1 to that.
Punisher=infantry killing.
Punisher+full HB=infantry demolition.
Punisher+anything else=wasted points. (well, maybe PC would work, but probably still too expensive)



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Vallejo, CA

The punisher cannon is not just good against light infantry.

It's better than a battlecannon against MEq, and it's better than almost everything against terminators and it's also better than any russ variant against monstrous creatures.

And, as mentioned, it can be good against vehicles.

The punisher is only versatile if you ignore the fact that, kitted properly, it can handle more targets better than any other russ.

Arguing that something is crappy by carte blanche ignoring huge swaths of its effective abilities makes for a pretty weak viewpoint.


Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

Read "The Geomides Affair", now on sale! No bolter porn. Not another inquisitor story. A book written by a dakkanought for dakkanoughts!
 
   
 
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