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Hi rabid.
I belive you are being influence by the development errors of 40k too much.
A lot of the 40k rules HAD to be put in because of 'poor development decisions/development limitations.'

In 40k the difference between assault and rapid fire type 2 handed ranged weapons was made due to the 'mutation' of the game turn, and weird perceptions/ideas that arose from this.

The basic alternating game turn has,
MOVEING IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE ONLY!!

A)Stay still and fire to full effect.

B)Move up to M value and shoot .

C)Move up to 2 M value and make not ranged attacks at all.

Then in the shooting phase.
Units that took option A or B could make ranged attacks.

Then in the assault phase,any units taking option C ,moving into base to base contact with enemy could fight a round of assault.

EG the same options as we are using.
And when this WAS/IS used in a game .The general concesus was/is that units firing wildly on approach to assaulting enemy units, made the enemy keep their head down , so the assaulting unit got a bonus.(Initiative bonus/Strike first/+1attack etc, depending on which game you reference.)

Current 40k has messed this up...
Random moving in the movement phase , optional random moving in the shooting phase, and moving into assault in the assault phase.

Extra movement was added in to help assault happen with the massive improvement to shooting when the modifiers were removed, (along with lots of special rules to stop units breaking from shooting casualties.)

Now there was moving and shooting followed by moving into assault.Letting all small arms fire before assault would be overpowering.
So the ARTIFICIAL restriction of only letting 'assault 'ranged weapons fire at the target unit after moving , but before moving again into assault.
Was the way the GW dev team corrected the 'cock up' we have not made....

So ONLY pistols fire IN assault.

Assault weapons fire the same ALL the time.(Moving OR stationary.)Rapid fire get bonuses firing when stationary.This is the ONLY real difference between them under a 'proper' game turn.

Sorry about the long post but it is an important point I felt I needed to make.So many of current 40k rules are patches to cover poor game development ....

Yes I would like to use 'Assault Value' to represent a combination of WS & I.

Higher Assault value strikes before lower Assault value.(Roll off for striking order if Assault Value is equal.)
Exceptions
Charging unit Always Strike First.
Suppressed /Neutralized units Always Strike last.

The only points I would stress is if we allowed grenades to be thrown,;-
A)It replaces the normal attack of the model,
B)ONLY ONE grenade thrown per unit per game turn.

If you want to include them in a more generalised way, like current 40k, I am out of ideas to be honest....

Lanrak,

Don't worry, that post was nothing compared to the essays we've already written haha. Also, I knew that there were going to be more things dealing with Assault that I wouldn't notice were poor design than anywhere else. I'm am even more willing to accept criticism of design here than I had previously mentioned.

Now onto the couple things we're working on:
-I'd like there to keep a difference between rapid fire and assault, and I think you're right that assault weapons shouldn't fire in close combat as a blanket rule. What do you think about the true grit rule that I previously mentioned? It'd mainly be reserved for things like flamers and shotguns, but we can apply it wherever we feel it necessary.
-What do you think the bonus should be for rapid fire weapons? Something I considered was a single shot at long range if moved, and two shots if stationary. Two shots at half range are allowed regardless. Some of the rules we've put in place have swung the pendulum pretty far towards close combat, and I'd really like to avoid that (hence the buff here.)
-Allowing a single model to use a single grenade I think is fine, the only time I see that potentially being a problem is with melta-bombs and tank-bustas. Not sure how to remedy that besides providing exceptions (which we'd both like to avoid.)
-Always strike first will also really help cover things like Howling Banshees and other units that currently have high Initiative but low Weapon Skill.
-Always strike last will mainly be used for things like Power Fists. Adding it to pinned units I'd be in favor of, but not suppressed units. I say that because Pinned units are akin to units paralyzed by fear, but Suppressed units are units that are just slowed by incoming fire but are otherwise capable of fighting.

Hopefully that's all pretty clear. We might have to focus these down one at a time to prevent them from evolving into a major disconnect, but I don't think that will happen.

We have weapons you can move and fire, and weapons that cannot fire if they move.

Rapid fire weapons are aiming somewhere in the middle, to be better if you don't move and worse if you do. Wouldn't it be simpler to make most weapons either assaut or heavy, but then have a very small set of weapons with two profiles, an assualt one and a heavy one.

Dast,

I think it would actually make it more complicated to have two profiles instead of one universal profile.

A new thought I had was to make it so all rapid fire weapons fired once at half range if moved or once at full range if they remained stationary, but then make it so most weapons would have Rapid 2 or something like that. That way they'd fire twice at either full range (if stationary) or half range (if moved.)

I'm reluctant to do that though because it encourages static gameplay. I don't want the punishment for moving to be that steep. This is why I keep getting drawn back to what current 40k has, 1 shot at full range or 2 shots at half range regardless of moving. A good compromise could be to remove the full range shot if moved. This is a lot like 5th edition, but instead of 12" it's half range.

What do you guys think? It still rewards standing and shooting, but allows for some serious hurt if you can move to half range and would encourage moving for that.

Hi folks.
Could we use the following definitions for weapons?

Close Combat. Only used in close assault.(Effective range 1 handed weapons 0-2". 2 Handed weapons 0- 3")

Pistols (one handed ranged weapons.).May be fired in close assault.(Effective range 2 " to 8")

Smallarms .General 2 handed ranged weapons.Range 3" to 18"-30" .(Current assault weapons same shooting if moving or stationary.)

Special abilities.
Rapid Fire;- .2 handed ranged weapons that can fire a single shot at double range if stationary.(Standard profile 2 shots at 3" to 9"-15")
(Normaly moving and 'shooting from the hip', if stationary the model may aim at targets further away.)

Support weapons, specialised weapons that can move and shoot.

Fire Support Weapons, specialised weapons that CAN NOT move and shoot. (need a fire support order to fire.)

Grenades can be thrown up to 6" away.(One model per unit per game turn, replacing a normal ranged attack)

Devices that are placed on the target , like anti tank mines ,eg melta bombs, tank busta bombs can NOT be thrown!(They are not called grenades for a reason! )

If you want to allow more weapons to be used in assault , simply allow one handed versions of them!
EG Flame pistol, Sawn off shotgun, etc.
This keeps it simple, 1 handed ranged weapons can be fired in assault , 2 handed ranged weapons can not.

I agree on reflection, always strikes last on suppressed units is not really needed.(Good call .)

Lanrak,

I’m a huge fan of most of what you said; I think you solved our problems!

I only have a very minor change, and that’s eliminating special rules on them and leaving it purely as a weapon type. Really minor, but it allows for special weapons to not have an excessive list of special rules when a specific weapon type can sum up the majority of the rules.

Weapon types
-Melee
---Only attack that can be used if in base contact. Range 0-3”
-Pistol
---An attack that can be used even if close combat. Range 0-12”
-Grenade
---An attack that can be used even if in close combat. Only one model in the unit may elect to use this. Range 3-9”
-Assault
---Cannot be used even if in close combat. Fires the maximum number of shots if stationary or moved. Range 3”+
-Rapid Fire
---Cannot be used even if in close combat. Fires the maximum number of shots if stationary or moved, or half (rounding up) at double range if stationary. Range 3”+
-Heavy
---Cannot be used even if in close combat. Fires the maximum number of shots if stationary, and may not fire if moved. Range 6”+

*note: The ranges are just guides for when we convert all the weapons to the new format and are not literal.


The attacks that can be done in close combat are clearly defined, and Pistol will cover any ranged weapon that should be useable in close combat. Most of these are already covered (infernus pistol, hand flamer, etc.) and the biggest change I’d make is changing the type of shotguns to pistol. The name might not match up as well, but the type does and that’s what matters. A melta-bomb or other things that need to be attached will have the weapon type “Melee,” to represent the need to be in close proximity and can replace normal close combat attacks. For these individual cases, we can add a rule that makes them only useable on monstrous sized targets to prevent trying to use a melta-bomb on a warboss haha.

Just a quick note.
I think restricting some weapons to be used vs 'large targets only' , would be a good idea in general.

Writing the rules
'ONLY Melee and Pistol weapons can be used in close assault'.
Is a straight forward and clear way to restrict the weapons that can be used in assault.

I would prefer 2 handed ranged weapons to be called something other than 'Assault'.To avoid any confusion.

Guns- Rifles-Small Arms .(I think Guns is best! )

Revised weapon list...(Ideas)

Melee.(including 'Bomb' attacks.) (Only used in close assault)

Pistol.(Can be fired in close Assault.)

Guns.(including 'Grenade' attacks.)

Fire Support.Can not move and fire.(Needs Fire Support order to fire this weapon.)

Some ideas on weapon abilities and notes.
Rapid fire.The weapon can fire one shot at double its normal range when remaining stationary.
Ignore cover.The weapon ignores cover modifiers.
Large targets.The weapon can only target large targets(vehicles Monstrous creatures ,buildings etc.).
Gets Hot.The weapon can not fire in consecutive turns.

Just a few quick additions, changing up some vocabulary, and clarifying

Weapon Types:
-Melee
---Only attack that can be used in base contact. Covers melta-bombs, close combat attacks, etc.
-Assault
---May be used in, and fire into assaults. Covers pistols, shotguns, grenades, etc.
-Small Arms
---Covers all small arms. Anything from lasguns to venom cannons.
-Heavy (I like heavy because it is self-explanatory)
---All ordnance, heavy weapons, or anything else that requires the unit to remain stationary to fire.



Here is a summary of every USR we have thought of so far. (Green are new)

Weapon Special Rules
-Rapid Fire
---If the model remained stationary, they may halve the # of shots and double the rage.
-Gets Hot
---May not be used in consecutive turns.
-Bane
---Unit may reroll failed damage rolls
-Slayer
---Target must reroll successful armor saves
-Monster Hunter
---May only be fired at Monstrous targets.
-Panic
---Units hit by a panic weapon must take a morale check to see if they are routed if any armor saves are failed.
-Pinning
---Units hit by a pinning weapon have their Command Value reduced by 1 for the next turn if forced to take a morale check this turn.
-Suppressive
---Units hit by a suppressive weapon have their Leadership treated as 2 lower for morale checks this turn.
-Accurate
---May reroll hits.
-Barrage
---LOS is not required to target units.
-Ignores Cover
---Target's stealth value is not increased, and weapons AP is not reduced by cover.
-Always Strike First
---Models with this rule use their melee attack just before (Assault Characteristic) step 10
-Always Strike Last
---Models with this rule use their melee attack just after (Assault Characteristic) step 1


Model Special rules:
-Relentless
---Treat all Heavy weapons as Small Arms
-Furious Charge
---All models making a melee attack have the rule Always Strike First the turn they charged instead of only the ones in base contact.
-ATSKNF
---Leadership is treated as 2 higher for morale checks.
-Stubborn
---Stubborn units never suffer negative modifiers for morale checks.
-Fearless
---Fearless units ignore all morale checks.
-Cowardly
---All failed morale checks cause routing.

We could make it so all monstrous sized models have relentless, we just have to add that special rule. It would also cover terminators and the like.

With the combination of all these special rules, I can’t think of any situation that we can’t cover (though I’m sure there’s at least one haha)

That's a very good list of special rules, I do have a few comments though:

-I don't know if we are keeping the special armor types that allowed re-rolls against projectiles etc. I liked that idea, but it is very niche.

-I think a special rule that says "this is scary" was mentioned earlier (like "causes fear/terror" in warhammer fantasy). This might be applied as simply "This models close combat attacks have "Panic"."

-Depending on the detail on the unit cards "Relentless" might not be needed. A lascannon could just be a Heavy weapon on the space marine unit card, and an assault weapon on the card of a dreadnaught.

(I am indifferent, but am pretty certain Lanrak would prefer the latter. It does make it easy to describe a Lemun russ without special rules, it's heavy bolters are poorly named, and to it are assualt weapons. Its battle cannon is a heavy weapon (even on it)).

Wow, seeing all the juicy special rules in one place is nice, appart from the details I've just mentioned above I think they are just about perfect.

Hi Dast.
You are spot on about me prefering weapon types to be determined by the unit carrying them!

That why I prefer different terminology to 'heavy'.
As 'heavy' is a very subjective word for a descriptor...

And if we are putting weapon stats on unit cards we can define the weapons AND the users net effect.

'Move or Fire.... Fire Support....Aimed...etc' Can be used to denote weapons that prevent the model moving and firing the ranged weapon.I would prefer to use something like this instead of 'heavy'

I would question the following special rules validity...

Monster Hunter. (prefer the large target restriction to this .As MC and vehicles serve the similar roles in the new rules.)
Panic(just over powered IMO.)
Accurate (just increase effective range instead.)
Relentless(Not needed explanation above.)
ATSKNF(Just give them higher Ld values!)

I think armour types vs attack types would be best put in the 'advanced rules '.
Ablative reflective and reactive vs kinetic, energy and chemical for example.

I am worried we are very close the the 40 page limit.(If we include diagrams and pictures etc!)

Anyhow . Lots of great ideas, and this is really taking shape now!

Dast,

I think that Lanrak covered most everything. Due to close combat attacks and ranged attacks having the same special rules, Panic can be used in close combat.


Lanrak,

Speaking of Panic I need to change the wording from "hit" to "wound," as hit is currently way too strong. I had meant to do that before but forgot about it

Accurate I wanted to use as a replacement for Twin-Linked and Master-Crafted. I think rerolling hits is a good rule to have, but there isn't a need to distinguish between the two.

Monster Hunter probably isn't the best term. We need to do more term changing though if we use Large Target Restriction (as Large sized targets aren't Monstrous sized targets.) I'm sure we can come up with something here, I'm just drawing a blank.

Relentless won't be needed if we use the cards method. Relentless is just a little easier for me to grasp because I haven't done anything with unit cards before. Lanrak, when the time comes I'd like you to do the first codex (Space Marines.) This way Dast and I can work on the others and have a set format.

ATSKNF I actually specifically wanted to treat their Ld as 2 higher for morale checks because giving them a Ld of 2 higher can break the game in a lot of areas. For instance, just because they don't break easily doesn't mean that if we use the advanced rules they should go two steps before anyone else. Also, treating their Ld as 2 higher for morale checks makes them very likely to pass their test (as most will have a leadership of 10 before other modifiers, meaning a 1/12 chance of failing.)


What about changing Heavy to Cumbersome? It gets the point across that it takes time to fire.




I briefly mentioned this, but we should probably figure out the armies we would be best at writing a codex for. Stat conversions are given, but there is leeway and we can use this opportunity to try to balance the books a bit. I'm not saying we'll get it perfect, or even close, on the first try. But if we go into it with the mindset of "I want a balanced game" instead of "I want this army to be awesome" we should be good to go.

Space Marines will need to be done first, and I'd like Lanrak to do it. You have the best grasp of what the unit cards need to look like, and I'm confident you'll be able to internally balance the codex pretty damn well.

After Space Marines, we can break up the remaining codices and balance them according to Space Marines. Then we'll review each others', and make them all available on Dakka for those that want to help with balance but not create a whole rulebook.

The codices I'm very comfortable doing:
-Tyranids
-Tau
-Orks

Comfortable:
-Space Marines (if you don't want to Lanrak)
-Blood Angels
-Eldar
-Grey Knights

Willing:
-Imperial Guard
-Chaos Daemons
-Dark Eldar
-Necrons

Not willing:
-Sisters
-Chaos Space Marines
-Dark Angels
-Space Wolves


How about you guys? We can try to enlist the community to help too if none of us are comfortable working on one of them.

I'm starting an actual draft of it tonight, and I'm hoping to have it done and in a PDF by Sunday. A bit ambitious, but worth a shot. Oh, and does anyone know a good website that I can use to model battles using sprites and the like?

Hello,

The codices I'm very comfortable doing:
Chaos space marines (although for obvious reasons not until after space marines have been done).

Comfortable:
imperial guard
Tyranids

I would prefer to avoid the rest, if possible. I could do "old" necrons, but I know little of the new.

(I am going to find it so hard to not cram tonnes of extra units, weapons and stuff in)

Thinking some more about close combat...

We need to come up with a conversion for the new AP system.

Some basics that I was thinking:

-No close combat weapon
---AP = Strength - 1
-Close combat weapon
---AP = Strength
-Notable close combat weapon (Scything talons, Chainswords, etc.)
---AP = Strength + 1
-Power maul
---AP = base Strength + 2
---Strength + 2
-Power lance
---AP = Strength + 3
---Range = 4" instead of 3"
-Power sword
---AP = Strength + 4
-Power axe
---AP = Strength + 5
---Range = 2"
-Power fist
---AP = Strength + 5
---Range = 2"
---Always Strike Last
-Chain fist
---AP = Strength + 5
---Range = 2"
---Always Strike Last


Current USR conversions (that I can think of...)
-Rending
---Replaced with Slayer (considered a notable close combat weapon if melee)
-Poisoned
---Replaced with Bane (Biological)
-Witchfire (and EMP)
---Replaced with Bane (Mechanical)
-Melta
---Replaced wtih Bane (Mechanical) and Slayer (Mechanical)
-Lance
---Replaced with Slayer (Mechanical)

This weekend I'll make a list of every USR and what I'd like to convert it to.

Those are just some basic ones, but hopefully get the point across pretty well

What do you guys think?

HI folks.
As reguard the army composition lists NOT called codex!

Why not start with the every day bods without power armour and bells and whistles.

Start of with standard human units (IG equivelent) Intergalactic Gaurdsmen.
Who have a closer a link to units we realy know about.(Eg current armies and equipment.)

And pehaps a xenos threat that has lower tech and is more focused on close assault.(Ork equivelent.) O.R.K (Organic, Regenerating, Keratin, based life form ...)

If you start with the MOST ELITE FORCE IN THE GALAXY , it can skew your perspective some what.
Currently every race in 40k is defined as 'not as good as space marines because....'

If was to do the Space Marine Codex first It would be much closer to the original RT stat line...and PV.
And most people would not like that at all!

BUT if we establish a base line of bog standard humans first.The ELITE of the Galaxy costing more can be justified.

Ill have a read through where we are now.(I have lost track a bit.. its my age you know..lol.)
After yo have added all the 'special abilities' NOT called USR...

Haha, yah we'll work on changing all the names to avoid legal problems.

That's a good call to start on the average first. I default to Marines because they are freaking everywhere.

Lanrak, are you okay with writing the first army book? I realize I've kinda been throwing your name all over the place, and I'm sorry for that I should have checked with you first



Oh, alright here are some rules we haven't mentioned at all that I plan to keep:
-Unit Coherency
---The same as current 40k (2")
-LOS
---WYSIWYG
-Deployment
---The same as 3rd edition. Players alternate, deploying in this order: Heavy support - Troop - Elite - Headquarters - Fast attack
-Missions
---I'd like to have 6 distinct missions.
1 - Kill each other
2 - Table quarters
3 - 5 objectives
4 - A single center objective
5 - Rescue mission
6 - One objective per person in their deployment zone
-Mission special rules
---Cropping out a lot, keeping just reserves (w/ outflank, infiltrate, scouts, and deep strike)
-Pile ins
---Units locked in close combat move 3" at the start of the Resolution phase. Charging unit moves first, charged unit moves second. May not engage new units.


Basically just vomited information onto the forums in no particular order, but these ones are really minor compared to what we've covered so far.


Here is a list of every special rule, and conversions so far.


Red = removed
Green = covered by a special rule we've talked about
Blue = covered in the unit profile
Normal = haven't covered

Incoming wall of text...

Acute Senses - Ignore Night fight
Adamantium Will - (we’ll cover this when we get to psykers)
ATSKNF - covered
Assault Vehicle - removed
Armourbane - Bane (Mechanical)
Barrage - covered
Blind - removed
Brotherhood of Psykers - (we’ll cover this when we get to psykers)
Bulky - Occupies two spots in a transport
Concussive - Suppressive
Counter Attack - Furious Charge
Crusader - Furious Charge
Daemon - (I’m thinking we should make this a unit type with biological and mechanical)
Eternal Warrior - removed
Fear - Panic
Fearless - covered
Feel No Pain - (we’ll just include this in ward saves when we cover that)
Fleet - included in movement characteristic
Fleshbane - Bane (Biological)
Deep Strike - keep rules
Force - (we’ll cover this when we get to psykers)
Furious Charge - covered
Gets Hot - covered
Hammer of Wrath - Furious Charge
Hatred - removed
Haywire - Slayer (Mechanical)
Hit & Run - removed
Ignores Cover - covered
Infiltrate - keep rules
Instant Death - keep rules
Interceptor - Bane (Flying)
It Will Not Die - (we’ll just include this in ward saves when we cover that)
Jink - (we’ll just include this in ward saves when we cover that)
Lance - Slayer (Mechanical)
Master-Crafted - Accurate
Melta - Bane (Mechanical) and Slayer (Mechanical)
Missile Lock - Accurate
Monster Hunter - Bane (Monstrous)
Move Through Cover - covered
Night Vision - Ignore Night fight
Outflank - keep rules
Pinning - covered
Poisoned - Bane (Biological)
Power of the Machine Spirit - removed
Preferred Enemy - removed
Psychic Pilot - (we’ll cover this when we get to psykers)
Psyker - (we’ll cover this when we get to psykers)
Rage - Furious Charge, models must act at their highest activation level
Rampage - removed
Relentless - included in weapon profiles
Rending - Slayer
Scout - keep rules
Shred - Bane
Shrouded - included in stealth characteristic
Skilled Rider - Move Through Cover
Skyfire - Slayer (Flying)
Slow and Purposeful - included in movement characteristic
Smash - included in weapon profiles
Sniper - removed
Soul Blaze - removed
Specialist Weapon - removed
Split Fire - no morale check required to split fire
Stealth - included in stealth characteristic
Strafing Run - removed
Strikedown - pinning
Stubborn - covered
Supersonic - included in movement characteristic
Swarms - included in type characteristic
Tank Hunters - Bane (Monstrous)
Torrent - included in weapon profiles
Twin-Linked - Accurate
Two-Handed - removed
Unwieldy - Always Strike Last
Vector Dancer - removed
Vector Strike - included in weapon profiles
Zealot - Furious Charge


Here are the special rules and weapon types we've covered.

Weapon Types:
-Melee
---Only attack that can be used in base contact. Covers melta-bombs, close combat attacks, etc.
-Assault
---May be used in, and fire into assaults. Covers pistols, shotguns, grenades, etc.
-Small Arms
---Covers all small arms. Anything from lasguns to venom cannons.
-Cumbersome
---All ordnance, heavy weapons, or anything else that requires the unit to remain stationary to fire.

Weapon Special Rules
-Rapid Fire
---If the model remained stationary, they may halve the # of shots and double the rage.
-Gets Hot
---May not be used in consecutive turns.
-Bane
---Unit may reroll failed damage rolls
-Slayer
---Target must reroll successful armor saves
-Monster Hunter
---May only be fired at Monstrous targets.
-Panic
---Units hit by a panic weapon must take a morale check to see if they are routed if any armor saves are failed.
-Pinning
---Units hit by a pinning weapon have their Command Value reduced by 1 for the next turn if forced to take a morale check this turn.
-Suppressive
---Units hit by a suppressive weapon have their Leadership treated as 2 lower for morale checks this turn.
-Accurate
---May reroll hits.
-Barrage
---LOS is not required to target units.
-Ignores Cover
---Target's stealth value is not increased, and weapons AP is not reduced by cover.
-Always Strike First
---Models with this rule use their melee attack just before (Assault Characteristic) step 10
-Always Strike Last
---Models with this rule use their melee attack just after (Assault Characteristic) step 1


Model Special rules:
-Relentless
---Treat all Heavy weapons as Small Arms
-Furious Charge
---All models making a melee attack have the rule Always Strike First the turn they charged instead of only the ones in base contact.
-Move Through Cover
---Negative terrain modifiers are halved for moving
-ATSKNF
---Leadership is treated as 2 higher for morale checks.
-Stubborn
---Stubborn units never suffer negative modifiers for morale checks.
-Fearless
---Fearless units ignore all morale checks.
-Cowardly
---All failed morale checks cause routing.


So there were a couple that I gave ideas on, but four big categories that we need to cover still. Here they are with some brief thoughts on them.

1 - Missions and deployment
---Covered in detail above
2 - Psychic powers
---Not sure what to do here. I'm in favor of cutting every tree down to 4 powers, and psykers can pick their powers.
3 - Ward saves
---I'd like to call these "last chance" saves that are taken after the wound has been done. These combine Invul saves, FnP, Jink, etc. all into one.
4 - Warlord abilities
---Definitely put this in the advanced rules, and I'd like for it to be a chart very similar to the psychic powers. Players agree how many warlord "points" they're going to have, then allocate them how they see fit. Each army has access to different charts just like they do psychic powers.


A lot to chew through that are luckily near the end of the rulebook. I'm going to be slowly but surely working on the word document version, and I'll put it in the first post when I'm done

Hi again.
I agree with unit coherancy ,(infantry 2" ,vehicles /MCs 4".)
LoS , 'models eye view'

Deployment either Blind, or alternating unit placement.(Common specialised and then restricted.Rather than current FOC names, as we will not be using them.)

I would prefer to have 6 attacker missions , and 6 defender missions to give 36 senarios...Coupled with 3 deployment zones.(108 games types!!

Looking at the wall of special rules ..I started to panic.. We may need to see if there is redundancy here...

I think it is important to get the core rules down all in one place.Ill read your word document .(Are you going to attach it as a PDF?)
I think it may be a good idea for me to write the rules as I see then taking form too.

Then we can iron out any kinks , and get 'on the same page' before we get to army list writing proper..

For the basic rules I was thinking about 12 special rules maximum , additionaly 1 race(rather than faction) specific rule.As the more detailed stats should cover far more than 40k core rules ...

I think psychic powers should be action specific, (moving, shooting,assaulting.)And in the advanced rules along with similar Warlord powers etc.

(I will unable to contribute much for a short while.Some family health problems will be taking up a large amount of time in the next 2 to 4 weeks...)

Lanrak,

There are a lot of things that are a higher priority than plastic dudesmen, don't worry about it


I mean to put this in the last post, but the current USRs are not going to be in the new rulebook. The ones we have covered are the ones we're going to be using, and the giant wall of text above that are just a table for conversion to make it easier for when we make the codices

It's more than we had previously wanted, but honestly the 20 or so that we have is easily manageable. For each army book, I plan to limit it to 3 unique special rules (e.g. Tyranids would have Shadow in the Warp, Synapse, and Instinctive behavior feed/lurk.) Army unique special rules fall into the advanced section as well.


Very interesting take on the Attacker and Defender missions. I'd like to hear your ideas as to what they would be, and how they'd interact.

Blind deployment is ideal, but I have no idea how we can do that. I'd also like to hear your ideas on this one.


Warlords and Psykers I'm good with putting in the advanced rules. I'll work on coming up with the 15 (3 per table, 5 tables) for each and try to put it on here before I put it in the rulebook. Here are my initial thoughts:

*note: Dexterity is the place holder for the combined Weapon Skill and Initiative.

Warlord tables
Ruthless
-Warlord has Bane and Slayer against enemy models with a CV of 3 or more
-Warlord has Accurate against enemy models that are Monstrous sized
-In the event that the Warlord’s “Dexterity” is tied with an opponent’s, the Warlord attacks first.
Tactical
-Warlord and the unit they join may outflank
-Warlord and the unit they join may infiltrate
-Warlord and the unit they join have 1 higher stealth if within 3” of an objective
Inspirational
-A single unit within 12” of the Warlord may use the Warlord’s Leadership Value each turn
-Units within 12” of the Warlord treat their Leadership as one higher for morale checks
-If the Warlord makes no voluntary actions this turn, all units within 6” may use the Warlord’s Command Value
Strategic
-May reroll the mission type.
-May redeploy 1 friendly unit 12” or 3 friendly units 4”. This unit must stay in their deployment zone, and can’t be moved into impassable terrain.
-May redeploy 1 enemy unit 6”. This unit must stay in their deployment zone, and can’t be moved into impassable terrain.
Glorified
-Warlord is scoring
-Warlord is stubborn
-Warlord may reroll their look out sir check.


Psyker tables
Biomancy
-Leech Life - Psychic Shooting attack: Range 12” / Strength 6 / AP 9 / Small Arms 2 / Absorb Wounds
-Bulwarking - Increase Psyker Strength and RV by D3
-Enfeeble - Decrease the Strength and RV of an enemy unit within 24” by 1
Clairvoyancy
-Prescience - A friendly unit within 12” gains Accuracy this turn.
-Precognition - Psyker gains Slayer and Bane
-Forewarning - A friendly unit within 12” gains a 4+ Ward Save
Pyrokinesis
-Flame Breath - Psychic Shooting attack: Range Template / Strength 5 / AP 4 / Small Arms 1 / Panic
-Fiery Form - Increase Psyker Strength by 2, gain a 4+ Ward Save, and Melee weapon AP increased by 1
-Molten Beam - Psychic Shooting attack: Range 12” / Strength 8 / AP 10 / Small Arms 1 / Slayer (Mechanical) Bane (Mechanical)
Telekinesis
-Crush - Psychic Shooting attack: Range 18” / Strength 2D6 / AP D6 + 1 / Small Arms 2 / Suppressive
-Pull - Pull an enemy unit within 24” towards the Psyker. Swarms and Infantry move 2D6”, Large move 2D6 - 3” Monstrous move 2D6 - 6”
-Force Field - All models within 6” of the Psyker gain a 4+ Ward Save against shooting attacks.
Telepathy
-Hallucination - An enemy unit within 24” suffers one of the following effects determined by a D6: 1-3 count as being hit by a suppressive weapon. 4-5 the unit is pinned. 6 each model of the unit makes a single close combat attack against the unit; if they do not have a close combat attack or are a single model unit this effect is ignored.
-Inspire - A friendly unit within 24” gains ATSKNF and Stubborn. If they were fleeing they immediately regroup.
-Fear - An enemy unit within 24” loses ATSKNF, Stubborn, and Fearless and gain Cowardly for this turn. They must also take a morale check.


Force weapons I feel should deal D3 wounds for each wound. Instant death I’d like to be removed and instead change it to deal an extra wound if the Strength is 4 more than the RV, and an extra wound for every point of Strength higher than that. So a Strength 10 shot would deal two wounds to a RV 6 model and five wounds to a RV 3 model.

Wow we almost completely missed the stuff for flyers. We very briefly mentioned it at the start of all this, but never came back to it.

Here's what I'm thinking:

Flyers have a major role on the battlefield by bringing incredible speed and firepower; however, they have greatly limited mobility and are fragile.

Any model that elects to use the flying movement type follows these rules.

New Counter Actions
-Fire Support forces the flying model to move double their movement value, and all weapons being fired must be fired at the end of the movement. Additionally, the model is -2 to their stealth value.
-Rapid Mobility actions are 4 times the model’s movement value, with a minimum movement of 2 times their movement value.
-Tactical Movement is triple their movement value, and all weapons being fired must be fired at the end of the movement.

Other Special Rules
-May make a single 90 degree turn prior to moving, but that is the only turning they may do.
-Stealth is increased by 4.
-May not be charged by any model that is not flying.
-May only fire in the front 90 degree arc.
-All terrain is ignored for movement and receiving cover.
-Has the “Golden BB” special rule:
---After suffering a wound, the model must make a save on a 3+
-----If passed, they remain in the air.
-----If failed, the model suffers an additional wound and must immediately switch to a different movement type. If the model has no other movement type, they are destroyed. Place a large blast template 9” in front of the model and roll the scatter die, moving the template 2D6” in the direction of the scatter die (a “hit” on the scatter die does nothing.)

Hi rabid.
The idea of missions is they are independant objectives for attacker and defender.

EG
The Attacker randomly draws 'Hells Highway' mission card, has to clear a 18" wide path from the attackers table edge to the defenders table edge.

The defender gets 'Thin Red Line' mission card, has to keep over half his units at starting strength.

Each mission card has conditions for minor victory,(1 pt) and major victory(2 pts)

So players are trying to achive their mission, while trying to guess what the other players mission is, and to try and stop them scoring ...

Just an idea.

Blind deployment just means putting something to block the players view of the opposing table half.(Table cloth on a line, sheet of cardboard, etc.)

As reguard to flyers.

2 mission types .

Transport ,
May deploy/evacuate a unit at a specific point on the table .
MUST land and spend ONE TURN on the ground before taking off.May ONLY fire support weapons in a 90 degree arc to direction of facing while on the ground.
Moves in Advanced Movement Phase (amber,)on arrival.Departs in Reaction Phase(red). (Shoot then move.)

Ground attack.
Enter play at low level.
Pick start point of Ground Attack on edge of playing area in player own half.Pick exit point of Ground Attack.
Activates in the Reaction Phase(red)
May attack ONE unit along this flight path.(may split fire as normal rules.)

Flyers are 'on call' all game.
On a successful request roll (3+) in the command phase,( they can be deployed in the resolution phase, ready for the start of next turn.)
Flyers can NOT be requested without a designated target /landing zone.(Los from friendly unit.)

Transports can only be attacked when on the ground.
Ground attack flyers can be shot at by any enemy on Fire Support orders within 12" of flight path.IF they have weapons with effective range of 24" or greater.

just some basic ideas...TTFN

I like your ideas for missions, I'll try to see if I can come up with any as well.

Blind deployment the way you describe is ideal, but I don't think it's quite as feasible as we'd like. I propose that to be the advanced rules and the alternating version be the basic rules. The other option is to have the defender deploy first by default.

For flyers, I never thought of them the way you are describing. Here are some things I was thinking of along those lines.

Two altitudes to come in at, and each one has two things they can do.

High Altitude:
-May provide reconnaissance
-May drop bombs

Low Altitude:
-May attack ground targets
-May unload units being transported

Flyers may shoot at each other at any time. "Air Superiority" I think should be a special rule for flyers that makes them +4 BS against other flyers.

To call in a flyer, it should be a 3+ to start, and they can come back in for free afterwards. I also agree they must choose an entry point and an exit point, and stay on that line (moving 6 times their movement value each turn)

The exception to that are transports. Transports follow the same as above, but may elect to enter a hover mode and disembark passengers. After they do this, they may pick a new exit point.


I'd like to let any unit fire at them, and knock off 12" for low altitude or 24" for high altitude. Also I'd like to keep the "Golden BB" rule. I find it fitting because aircraft don't always get a second chance if they're hit.


The next question I have is what about units with multiple movement types? I'm up for letting them change between them at any time, but must use a red counter to do so. They would have to choose an exit point, and move the 6x their movement value as well.


Sorry for the disorganized post, I'm pretty tired Hopefully it's still readable though.

Hi rabid.
I would like the missions to be drawn randomly, and cover a wide spectrum of objectives.
Hold ground, keep certain unit types alive, destroy specific opposing units, get one randomly determined unit off the table at a specific point.
I think random narrative missions are more fun !
Here is an example of an attack mission with a narrative...

Attack mission;- Dagger.
Your mission it to get a elite unit behind enemy lines , under the cover of an attack.
One infantry unit with the lowest point value in the force is the disguised elite unit/is hiding the disguised elite unit .

You MUST ensure this unit makes it to the opposing players deployment area at a least half starting strength.
Minor victory, the unit is in the enemy deployment zone at the end of the game ,with over half its starting strength.(1 pt.)

Major victory the unit makes it to the enemy deployment edge , without loosing any wounds at all!(2 pts)

I like the idea of low and high altitude and the mission types.

We could have fighters on Combat Air Patrol Intercept.

High altitude recon, and bombers can only be intercepted by fighters on CAP.

Low level transport, and ground attack can be attacked by ground units AND fighters on CAP.

Ill have a think about these air missions and see what I can come up with .(off to work now...)Lots of great ideas so far!

Lanrak,

Something we've completely neglected to mention is firing multiple weapons. I think we can cover that with another simple special rule. I know we (the royal we ) have been adding a lot on recently but hopefully all these special rules make sense. Additionally a lot of them we can pick out for advanced rules.

Anyways, I propose:
Multi-Fire (#)
-May fire up # weapons every turn.

Very simple, but hugely productive.



A quick note, flyers don't have specific misions. There are just certain things they can do at each level.

Hover (alternate movement type)
-No movement, may disembark units. Stealth value not increased.
-May be fired at by any ground unit. No range reduction.
-May fire anything at low altitude units or ground units, and missiles at high altitude units.

Low Altitude
-Forced movement 2x MV to 3x MV. Stealth value increased by 3.
-May be fired at by any ground unit. 12" range reduction on units without Skyfire.
-May fire anything at low altitude units or ground units, and missiles at high altitude units.

High Altitude
-Forced movement 4x MV to 5x MV. Stealth value increased by 5.
-May be fired at by ground units with the Skyfire special rule. 12" range reduction.
-May fire anything at high altitude units, missiles at low altitude units, and bombs at ground units.
-Provides vision for entire board for the purposes of Barrage weapons.

Flyers may go up or down a single level every turn (alternate movement - low altitude - high altitude) by using a red counter.
Flyers may charge other flyers regardless of altitude. Maximum Charge range is equal to the minimum forced movement value, and they may charge any unit within the front 180 degree arc.

I think those rules will cover everything for flying units. Naturally flying units of all forms are considered advanced rules.

Flyers must be called in during the Command Phase, and successful (3+) results allow the Flyer to come in at the end of the Resolution Phase. When they arrive, they are placed at their entry point with a declared altitude and must move in a straight line. The entry point can be at any board edge, including opponents and neutral. After successfully arriving from reserves, the Flyer may be automatically called in every turn thereafter.

And to actually simplify things, here is one last special rule that can accompany ignores terrain:
-Ignores terrain:
---No negative terrain modifiers
-Low altitude restriction:
---May not enter High Altitude

So some differences:

Eldar Jetbikes:
MV: 8
MT: Wheeled/Flying
Special Rules: Ignores Terrain, Low Altitude Restriction

This means the Jetbike can run or charge 16" and ignore terrain, or it can actually enter the Low Altitude Flying stage to dramatically increase it's speed. However, it has the downsides of that as well (including golden BB, minimum movement, etc.) and it can't go into High Altitude.



Here are some of my ideas for missions:

Attacker:
1 - Rescue
-Must reveal this objective to your opponent.
-The Attacker will place a single neutral model at least 12" outside of the Attacker's deployment zone and 6" away from the board edge.
-A scoring unit may escort the model at any time by moving within coherency.
-The model must be escorted to a friendly board edge.
-The Defender may capture the model, but must be in base contact with a scoring unit.
-Victory points
---1 point for the model being in coherency of an Attacker's scoring unit.
---2 points for the model being in the Attacker's deployment zone.
---5 points for the model reaching the Attacker's board edge.
---2 points to the Defender if the model is in base contact of a Defender's scoring unit.

2 - Kill points
-Victory points
---1 for every enemy unit killed or routed when the game ends.
---1 to the Defender for every Attacker scoring unit killed or routed when the game ends.

3 - Sieze Ground
-Capture table quarters by having an Attacker's scoring unit within the quarter and no Defender scoring units within the quarter. If a unit spans multiple quarters, the owner may choose which they have captured.
-Victory points
---1 to the Attacker for every table quarter that started with 50% or more of the Attacker's deployment zone.
---2 to the Attacker for every table quarter that started with some amount of the Attacker's deployment zone.
---3 to the Attacker for every table quarter that started with none of the Attacker's deployment zone.
---1 to the Defender for every table quarter.

4 - Highway to Victory
-The Attacker must clear a 12" wide corridor from any two corners diagonal of each other (chosen by the Attacker when the game ends)
-Victory points
---2 to the Attacker for every 18" long section with no enemy units.
---1 to the Defender for every unit in the 12" corridor.

5 - All out attack
-The Attacker must get as many scoring units into the Defender's deployment zone as possible.
-Victory points
---2 to the Attacker for every scoring unit that ends the game in the Defender's deployment zone.
---1 to the Attacker for every non-scoring unit that ends the game in the Defender's deployment zone.

6 - Assassination
-The sole goal of the Attacker is to kill the enemy HQ.
-Victory points
---4 to the Attacker for every Defender HQ model slain or routed when the game ends.
---1 to the Defender for every Defender HQ model with full health when the game ends.

Defender:
1 - Gun Battery:
-Must reveal this objective to your opponent.
-The Defender will place a single Quad gun 6" outside of the Defender's deployment zone and 6" from the board edge.
-A scoring unit must spend an entire turn with at least one model in base contact to activate the Gun Battery.
-Once activated, the Defender has access to a Quad gun.
-The Attacker may destroy the Quad gun at any time, or activate it themselves (even if already activated by the Defender).
-Victory points:
---1 point for activation
---3 points if the Quad gun survives the game
---1 point for every unit killed by the Quad gun
---1 point to the Attacker if the Quad gun is destroyed
---3 points to the Attacker if the Quad gun is captured

2 - Communications network
-Defender places three objectives at least 6" outside of the Defender's deployment zone. They must be at least 18" away from each other and 6" from the board edge.
-A scoring unit must spend an entire turn with at least one model in base contact to activate the objective.
-If activated, all units within 3" of an activated objective may use the Command Value of any friendly model within 3" of an activated objective.
-The Attacker may destroy the objective by moving a model into base contact with the objective.
-Victory points
---1 to the Defender for every activated objective
---1 to the Defender every activated objective that survives the game
---1 to the Attacker for every destroyed objective

3 - Supply cache
-Defender places three objectives at least 6" outside of the Defender's deployment zone. They must be at least 18" away from each other and 6" from the board edge.
-A scoring unit must retrieve the objective, and return it to within 6" of the center of their deployment zone. A scoring unit may pick up the objective by having a model in base contact with it. The unit may not pass of the objective to any other unit, but the whole unit is considered by possess the objective if any model is in base contact with the objective.
-For every supply dropped off, the Defender may force a reroll of any single die every turn.
-The Attacker may destroy the objective by moving a model into base contact with the objective.
-Victory points
---1 to the Defender for every objective returned to the center of the deployment zone
---1 to the Defender for every objective returned to the center of the deployment zone that survives the game.
---2 to the Attacker for every objective destroyed

4 - Defense grid
-Defender places three objectives at least 6" outside of the Defender's deployment zone. They must be at least 18" away from each other and 6" from the board edge.
-A scoring unit must spend an entire turn with at least one model in base contact to activate the objective.
-Once activated, a force field is created between the objectives. Any shot passing through the force field allows the target a Last Chance (6+) save. Additionally, movement through the force field cannot be done with a Yellow counter.
-The Attacker may destroy the objective by moving a model into base contact with the objective.
-Victory points
---1 to the Defender for every objective successfully activated
---1 to the Defender for every objective successfully activated that survives the game.
---2 to the Attacker for every objective destroyed

5 - Sacred Relic
-Must reveal this objective to your opponent.
-The Defender will place a single Relic 6" outside of the defender's deployment zone and 6" from the board edge.
-The Defender must defend the Relic at all costs. All Defender units within 12" of the Relic are Fearless.
-All Attacker units within 12" of the Relic are Cowardly.
-Victory points:
---6 to the Defender points if the Relic survives the game
---2 points to the Attacker if the Relic is destroyed

6 - Kill points
-Defender places three objectives at least 6" outside of the Defender's deployment zone. They must be at least 18" away from each other and 6" from the board edge.
-These objectives are sabotaged. Any unit that comes into base contact with the objective suffers D6 Strength 5 AP 4 hits.
-Victory points
---1 to the Defender for every Attacker unit killed or routed when the game ends.
---1 to the Attacker for every Defender scoring unit killed or routed when the game ends.

Another quick rule I thought of that would be nice to include:

Ramming
-Monstrous models may use this movement with a Yellow counter
-Must move 2x MV
-Any model touched is hit on a Dexterity vs Dexterity roll
-Strength = Front AV
-AP = Side AV


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Almost forgot this too:

What do you guys think about transports? I'm having a hard time coming up for the basic rules for it. I have a pretty good idea of the advanced rules though.

-CV reduced to 0 for the transport and unit for the purposes of activation.
-Must use a red counter. May either disembark then move or move then disembark.


Past that, I'm not sure what to do about assault vehicles and that kind of thing. My temptation is to eliminate that entirely, and just make it so the disembarking unit can use either a red or a yellow counter (but immediately after disembarking)

A couple notes as I'm making the Tyranids codex.

Force Organization Charts are replaced by this system:

Headquarters
Elites
Core
Support
Heroes

For every 1,000 points you get:
1 HQ slot
2 Elite slots
4 Core slots
2 Support slots
1 Hero slot

<25% of points in Headquarters
<50% of points in Elites
>25% of points in Core
<50% of points in Support

Hi rabid.
How about using the 'proportion of units' to determine whats available, rather than %?

Eg each
HQ allows 2 to 6 common units,and up to 2 support units to be taken.

Every 2 common units allows one special unit to be taken.

Every 2 special units allows one Elite unit to be taken.

This way we can theme lists based on what HQ units are taken,as this determines what units are classed as common ,support, special and elite.

Eg
Ork Warboss on War bike, means Bikeboyz are common units in this force, but count as a special unit in a force led by a Warboss in a trukk-battle wagon.And a support choice in a force led by a Warboss in Mega armour, and an elite unit in a force led by a 'Tribal Warboss '..etc.

This is just an alternative to %, that some gamer's still dislike...

Heroes should just be 'named ' models-units' that replace the un named models units in the force, IMO.

TTFN.

Lanrak,

Have you had the chance to look through the Tyranids Codex that I made? I can obviously change it around, but it was how I interpreted what you were saying.

The terminology that I think we should use is:
Headquarters
Core
Support
Elite

Heroes I would like to keep in their own section, because I don't think there should be multiple heroes in an army unless it's huge. However, I will concede if I can't think of a good way to do this and instead keep it as a replacement for un-named models.

I realize that there are a lot of people that prefer unit slots to percentages, and I think you're idea of "proportion of units" is the route we need to go. Based on what you said, here's what I was thinking:

The number of core units you take determines the slots for everything else.

# Core units / 3 (round up) = # HQ units
# Core units / 2 (round down) = # Support units
# Core units / 2 (round down) = # Elite units

HQ units and heroes can move units around to make themed armies. Going off your example. A Biker Boss moves Bikeboyz to Core, but the other three leave them as Support.

Some other examples:
-Belial moves terminators to Core
-Old One Eye moves a single unit of Carnifexes to Core
-Commander Shadowsun moves Stealth Suits to Core
-A Master of the Forge allows Dreadnoughts to be taken as Support or Elites

What do you think of that? That would also scale no matter what the size of the battle, so no "double force-org" nonsense or the like. It would always follow the same system.

Hi rabid.
If we are making 'themed lists' based on the HQ type.

Then selecting the HQ you want should be first.(As this sets the theme of your force!)

I would like to keep proportion in the force based on how rare the units are , not on the function of the units.As this allows for simple method of adding themes.
Simply list the units and stats & P.V.
Then each HQ lists what units are core ,support or elite for that HQ choice.(This info could be put on the reverse of the unit card perhaps?)

Then this HQ allows access to a number of Core units.(2 to 8 perhaps?)

Then for every 2 Core units , a Support unit can be taken.(twice as rare as core.)

The for every 2 Support units a Elite unit can be taken.(four times as rare as core .)

I would say a HQ must have a minimum of 2 core units attached to be fielded.

This is an alternative to basing the force structure on Core unit choices.It is similar , but a bit more intuitive perhaps ?
(Or just the way armies are selected in historical game may be influencing me..)

Lanrak,

I think I see what you're saying now, and that does make a lot of sense.

The HQ of an army will really determine what the army is going to look like. What about multiple HQs though? One would obviously be picked as the warlord in an advanced game, but for army composition that's a whole other animal.

It's possible to incorporate that, and have the player pick their warlord when planning their army. That would override other movements that could happen in the army.


Unfortunately, I'm having a hard time visualizing all this in a coherent format. This might be something I have to concede to you haha.

Hello,

I think that the general outline of the new force organisation sounds very good, although I think one of the nice things about 40k is that you don't need to have blob after blob of footsoldiers in order to start buying fancy stuff.

With this in mind I think that many things that currently are considered heavy support or fast attack should be moved to Core. For example bikers, Lemun russes and battlesuits are quite "standard" in their armies fluff, so should potentially be considered being made core (obviously the poitns cost of Lemun russes would have to remain high).

I'm afraid I havent yet had a chance to read your Tyranid codex, I should have some time this weekend.

Hi Dast,

It's just the first iteration, mainly to try and make what I was visualizing. It shouldn't take hardly any time to go through, it's only 15 pages

Moving units to Core I think would be a good idea, because I added the special rule "Scoring" onto some of the Tyranid units. No longer is it just a blanket Troops = Scoring, I've never been a fan of that.

This allows for Elite units to score, and Core units to not. So Leman Russes and Crisis Suits can be Core units because of how common they are, but they obviously won't score.