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Hi folks.
The basic concept is the NEW classifications determine the most common units as Core.The rarest as Elite.

Eg
IG Armoured Company MUST take A Tank as a HQ and 2 as core units .(3 tanks total.I would prefer lots of variants not just LMR.)
Before it can get a Support unit of Sentinel Scouts or IG Squad in a Chimera.

An Ork Warboss on a Warbike with a Nob Warbike retinue, must take 2 Warbike Skwadronz .
Before it can get Battle wagon, or Trukk Mobz as Support.

Just some ideas...
The first HQ must take its full complement of 8 Core UNITS before another HQ choice can be added to the army.
A HQ can ONLY be deployed with a MINIMUM of 2 Core units.

I was thinking the Warlord skills could be divided into Support Skills and Elite Skills.
If the force has Support units the warlord gets this number of rolls on the Support Skill chart, and picks ONE.
If the force has Elite units the Warlord gets this number of rolls on the Elite Skill chart and picks ONE.
(Elite skills are more powerful than Support skills.)

This makes filling up a full organisation chart beneficial but NOT compulsory.

This allows players quite a bit of freedom IMO.

Unlike 40k ,I would like the scoring in this game is based on mission cards.ANY unit can be used to meet the mission criteria.
In fact ALL units will be need to work together to achive the mission goals...
I would prefer to have a combined arms approach to the game.(All units working together to gain tactical superiority.)
3 'table set ups' long edge, short edge, and corners deployment.
6 Defender Missions , 6 Attacker missions.
(108 random senarios .)

Lanrak,

I had a go at the missions. I think they cover the spectrum pretty dang well, and you might like them

For Warlord traits, I'm actually hugely against rolling on a table for them. I really think they should be chosen by the player and noted on their army list. The same goes for Psychic powers.

I've got some really good ideas for single HQ armies and their ability to move units around. The first one that comes to mind is making Tervigons Elites if the Swarmlord is taken.

I'll probably get a lot of work done on the rulebook and codices during the first three weeks of April. I'm going to have a lot of spare time haha.

Hi rabid.
If you do not like random warlord skills, fair enough.
But letting the Support and Elite units taken 'unlock' them is a nice way to show the more able commanders get a better 'quality ' unit options perhaps?

I would like ALL HQ types to have their own organisation ideally.
So we can bring back all the Klan-Craftworld-Kabaal- Regiment-Chapter etc options .
I would like at least 4 basic HQ options, for each army.

I think it would be nice to give the players the option to really theme their own unique forces.
If we get a good balance of missions, so there are no 'must have units' for all missions.Players will be having fun working out how to use their force, in each new senario..

Rather than auto search 'spam net lists' , that kill variety and diversity of game play.

Lanrak,

Honestly I'm in favor of just having a list that players can choose from, regardless of their army composition. I think that having it vary depending on units taken will only further the advantage towards MSU.

Giving more options to the players for their army composition is fantastic. Some Codices are obviously much more suited to it than others, but that's fine.

I'd actually like a few different things be able to move units around:
-HQs will change quite a few units. Being able to move units to any slot.
-Heroes can also move units. However, much fewer than an HQ. An example would be Old One Eye making a single Carnifex Brood Core instead of Elite.
-Finally, a Hero HQ will drastically rearrange the army. The Swarmlord will move Tervigons to Elites, Carnifexes to Support, and Tyranid Primes to Core.


I think we share the same goal on missions. Every objective needs multiple units, every unit covers multiple objectives. It should reward well balanced lists over spam lists. I'm hoping that the missions I came up with cover that pretty well.

HI rabid.
I am a little concerned you are clinging to a '40k patch/sales effect' we do not really need.

Originaly 40k had 'customisable heroes' with named examples that were created by the studio.
And as these examples were given their own minatures over time, because the studio thought they were cool.They then got their 'special rules' to promote sales.
Andy Chambers Creation of 'Mad Doc Grotsnik'
'I took 2 rolls on the Bionics chart as it is only 3pts for Painboys..
I got ,
Armour Plated Skull, moderately useful, and explains his rise to power with the Goff head-butting contests..
Lobotomy..Oh deary deary me....''
(He converted a Pain boy with a 'flip top skull' and lots of gubbins falling out of his bionic brain, it was so Awsome to me when I read it in WD over 20 year ago i still remember it now!)

After codexes went a bit bland.These Names Heroes were given the 'special rules'of unlocking the ability to take elite FA or HS choices as troops ..

if we are making the HQ choices more customisable , (eg PAID FOR (NO ROLLS ) equipment and organization options.)And these naturally change the force organisation .

Do we need to cling to named Heroes, other than use them as examples of how the HQ and other units can be modified?(Players can use these premade heroes /units OR make up their own like it used to be.... )

I think the basic themes across the armies would be.(Based on different sections of the battle line.)

Foot slogging infantry , with full Support and Elite option choices.(Or minor changes in the Support and Elites to get different but similar themes.)

Mobile infantry , focusing on fast movement with limited Support and Elite.

Armoured Assault , heavy hard hitting units that are focused on punching through the enemy lines with an armoured fist..Limited Support And Elite choices.

Artillery long ranged fire power..represent the fire base .Limited Support and Elite choices.

Obviously these are very broad interpretations of general themes.But if we make 'current restricted choices ' less restricted in the new organisations.We will have to balance them with limiting the Support and Elite options perhaps?
I am broadly basing these on real world military organisation , (sort of how they used to be done , before GW got desperate for sales...)

Interesting...

So are you in favor of merging all the current Heroes into normal units?

So say that we do that, and have every codex have 5 different HQ choices (which don't have to be the same as other codices)

Tyranids could have these 5:
Hive Tyrant - Balanced army that brings hordes and monsters to bear on the battlefield.
---Full access to army. No units moved around.
Tervigon - Centered on hordes of gaunts, and bringing countless numbers and buffing them.
---Increased number of core choices.
Alpha Zoanthrope - A psychic choir that drowns out the opponent with numerous psychic abilities.
---Zoanthropes moved to Support, all Support monstrous creatures moved to Elite. Shadow in the Warp increased to 18".
Alpha Lictor - A master of stealth and infiltration, being nearly invisible to even the most keen enemies.
---Lictors moved to Support, all Support monstrous creatures moved to Elite. D3 units may infiltrate.
Parasite - Rippers and swarms coat the battlefield in bodies, with the Parasite making more and controlling them all.
---Rippers are 3 points cheaper. Warriors and Primes may not be taken.

Those are the descriptions I was thinking of. Hopefully not too tainted by 40k (because I know I'm susceptible to that )

HI rabid.
I did not mean to cause offence.Its just the motive behind GW plc rules development can be a bit suspect at times.(More so since 3rd ed 40k came out.)Having been carefully watching 40k development, and being fortunate to talk to some of the staff at GW towers.I can sort of see the genuine goals of the studio, and the corperate interferance that we ended up with...


Eg For Space Marine Chapter Masters, there are a selection of 'Warlord Skills', and 'Special Relic Weapons' options.

EXAMPLE Marenus Calgar of the Ultramarines has 'God of War' as his Warlord Skill and 'Paired Power Fists,'for his Relic Weapon.

If a player wants to make his own Chapter Master with 'Paired Power Fists' Relic weapon , and another Warlord Skill like 'Death or Glory' for their own Chapter Master for the 'Steel Panthers Chapter',They can... (Just an example made up to illustrate my point.)

I do not want the Point Values of units to change depending on HQ or force selection.(Another really bad game design choice used instead of unit type limitation.)
Tactical worth should be expressed as availability, not mucking about with Points values IMO .

I am ok with a HQ giving some 'under powered core units' extra special abilities.(Eg some nid stuff. Thick Carapace to improve Armour,Chamelon Skin to improve stealth ,Strong legs to gain the Jump ability, etc)

Unfortunately Tyranids are the army I am least familiar with.
I would like to bring back some old unit types, like Mind control units to the army led by Zoanthropes ,and Genesteler cults to armies led by a Broodlord (Genestealer hero?) to add a bit more variety in to the mix.

In short, loads of unit options, and force variety, but perhaps slightly more restriction on unit size and load out options?

Eg buying ;-
Hoard units in multiples of 10.
Normal units in multiples of 5.
Specialised units in multiples of one.(Chaos units bought in patron gods number obviously , 6,7,8and 9s.)

I hope some of this made sense.

TTFN

Lanrak,

Don't worry, I didn't take offense

Unfortunately a lot of what you were saying didn't make sense to me

Let's find a good codex that we both understand shall we? The easiest one is probably Space Marines, with second being maybe Tau due to the number of units and options that are available to them. Do either of those work for you?


Luckily warlord traits and most army composition is something that can be ironed out at the same time as me working on the actual rulebook



Lastly, here is what I've completed so far. I thought you might like to see it. (note that it is only like 15% done haha, and has some old rules towards the end)

Hi rabid.
I have access to old codex books for Space Marines and Orks.(5th ed I believe.)

I suppose my point was I prefer characters to have wargear, and ability options , that allow them to be customised.
And we show a well known character as an example of how these units can be customised.

Rather than EXCLUSIVE models with EXCLUSIVE rules, like GW often use them to promote minature sales.

I am afraid i have limited time ATM.I look through what you have so far...

Which Space Marines book is that again? I think I have the same one as you, same with Orks.

I have the one Phil Kelly wrote for Orks.
I have the one Matt Ward wrote for Marines.

Hi Rabid.
I am a bit concerned about starting the the SUPER elite Space marines.As this will set the benchmark so all other armies are, not as good as Space marines in some way.

How do you fancy looking at good old Orks first.I would prefer to start with these as they are the universal enemy of everyone!(Even other Orks!)


Using the old Klans as a basic reference...I would like to add back some units lost over time.
For traditional units (Snakebites ), Boar boys , Wild Boys, Madboys and Squiggoths!
Also add Gun Trukks to give orks basic cheap tanks ...
Also bring back Freebooters, to expand on Flash Gits to cover the original depth of units available to fit the theme better perhaps?
(Flash Gits, Renegade Mekboys, Renegade Bad Docs, Khorne Boys ,Renagade Runtherds,Renegade Speed Freeks,etc.)

HQ options.
Warboss( can be upgraded to Warlord.)(Named Example Ghazkull Thrakka)
Big Mek (can be upgraded to Boss MeK)(Named Example Wazdakka Gutsmek.)
Big Doc (can be upgraded to Boss Doc.)(Named example Mad Doc Grotsnik.)
Weirdboy(Can be upgraded to Weirdboss.)(Named example Old Zogwort.)
Only some Klans allow non Warboss characters to be upgraded to Warlord status...

Additional HQ options .
Big Doc/Boss Doc the top Painboy.
Boss Mek, and Weird boss added to let all types be upgraded to warlord status...
Runt Boss is new for the traditionalist Orks where Runts Boars and Squigs are more promenant than vehicles and high tech..

Basic Klans of old.

Bad Moons.(Yellow ) (HQ Warboss , secondary Big Doc/Big mek.)
Always have the most expencive gear.(because Orks use teef as currency and Bad Moons grow them faster!)
Better armoured and more shooty than other klans.

Blood Axes.(Camo patterns.)(HQ Warboss, secondary Big Mek/Human RT Adviser.)
The most militaristic of the Ork Klans.
Study and use Humans (IG) tactics and equipment.(No penalties for looted vehicles!And lots of Kommandos!)

Deffskulls.(Blue and dirt!)(HQ Warboss or Mek boss,secondary Big mek/Big Doc.)
Avid looters and scavangers.Belive the colour blue is lucky.

EvilSunz (Red.)(Warboss or Mek Boss, secondary Big Mek/Big Doc.)
Love speed and going as fast as possible.

Goffs.(Black.)(HQ Warboss/ Big Doc,secondary Warboss / Big Doc)
Love close combat .

Snakebites.(Dust and dirt)(HQ Warboss or Weirdboss, secondary Weirdboy/Runt Boss.)
Do not trust newer tech, believe in old fashioned ways...Much more 'psychic attuned' than other klans.(Weird Boss instead of Warboss and Runt Bosses as secondary HQ chioce.)

I played Orks in RT, 2nd ed and Epic! And loved the old diversity...
Sorry if i rambled a bit...

Lanrak,

No problem at all, and I agree with what you're saying as far as not starting with Space Marines.

Wow you know a lot more about Orks than I do haha. Honestly the best way forward might be for you to just take the reins on writing the first Codex. A lot of the feel that you want to bring back I really agree with, I just am having a hard time visualizing it


For instance:
-You bring up secondary HQ choices. How do those play into this?
-Certain warbands should have a certain feel, I agree with that. But how do you make it so each army gets that feel, and more importantly how can a player create their own army? That's always been really important to me, that I created my Hive Fleet Goliath that uses the units and playstyle that I want.
-Previously you mentioned some examples with Space Marines saying something like picking a trait and a relic. Would that translate to every army?

Those are just some examples of disconnects that we have, and I'm thinking that the best way to remedy them is to simply create a Codex. Maybe we should both make an Ork one individually and then compare them? That might be the best way forward?

Hi rabid.
I am afraid I got a bit carried away.
Perhaps I should have said;-
There are lots of different Ork Klanz that are organised and fight differently. Here are the well documented ones we will use as examples.

Bad Moonz, the 'elite' of all the Ork Klanz, best armour and biggest guns!

Blood Axes, the most militaristic of all the Klanz.(Even been known to trade with 'Umies for wepunz and trukks!)

DeffSkulls, the natural looters and scavangers lots of variety but not top quality equipment .

Evil Sunz. the most mobile , speed focused of all the Klanz.

Goffs, the most close combat fixated hommicidal maniacs in the universe!!

Snakebites, the traditional most savage of all Ork Klans.

The army selcetion process is slightly different for each of these architypes. You may make up your own klan, by simply picking the theme you want , and using the most appropriate list .

If you want a fast attack army called the Kobra Klan with loads of buggies , bikes and trukks , backed up with copters and Battle wagons.
Simply use the Evil Sunz example list .And structure your army and paint scheme as you want to..

I was thinking of listing HQ options that can be upgraded to WARLORD status.Eg the FIRST HQ unit you would pick.
The secondary options are the Additional HQ choices available you can add to an existing army after meeting the minimum criteria of core choices for the first HQ.

I was thinking most armies would have 1 or 2 HQ options for each list that could be upgraded to Warlord.
And the other options would be secondary HQs that could not be upgraded to Warlord, but bring additional supporting skills abilities to the army.

EG Wierdboys bring psychic powers to a Ork force, but are not realy warlord material.(Apart from in traditional warbands where their psychc power is the most destructive element of the Klan next to the giant rampaging Squggoths!)

I was trying to say that rather than 'just named' characters with cool gear and equipment.We re-instate the wargear, and have warlord abilities you can buy for your warlord if you want to.
Maybe special weapons for warlords wargear options perhaps?

Ill try to finish up my version of the core rules first.I am a bit short of time ATM.
Why not post up your basic army list out line , and then I can comment on it or post up an alternatives?

We all seem to be keen on differentiation between clans, regiments, chapters craftworlds etc.

Could I suggest the following system:

HQ choices have "Themes" connected to them. Some of their themes will be a result of the choice they are, others wargear. So a chaos sorcerer with the mark of nurgle on a bike might have the "sorcerer", "follower of nurgle" and "Mobile" themes.

All unit entries have themes as well. (again, potentially equipment based).

Which slots units occupy (core, elite etc). is determined by whether they share any themes with their warlord.

So Rabids Tyranid example could translate to something vaguely resembling:
KEY
HQ - definite themes (equipment based themes)

Tervigon - "horde", ("psionic")
Alpha Zoanthrope - "psionic" ("aerial")
Broodlord - "inflitrate",("stealth" "cult"?)
Alpha Lictor - "stealth" ("biochemical")
Parasite - "swarm" ("tunneling")
Hive tyrant - ("psionic","tunneling","horde","biochemical","aerial")

This might save on repeating similar text again and again with thing like "this is an X choice if ...".

Unit-wise:
gaunts - horde
rippers - swarm
warriors - ?
Carnifexes - mighty (with bio-plasma they also become "biochemical")
Pyrovores, biovores, venomthropes - biochemical
gargoyals - aerial
tervigon - tunneling
zoanthropes - psionic


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To clarify further it would be something like:

If all the units themes match the warlords its core.
If the unit has only one theme that doesnt match the warlord its support.
Otherwise elite.

So the fact that in my example carnifexes had "mighty" and no warlords did was intentional, carnifexes arn't core for anybody.

I have read your rules file so far. I really, really like it. You have written it far more clearly than I would have been able to. My favorite bit was when "ramming" was covered in about 4 short lines because the competitive checks and effects were already part of the system.

Their seems to a bit where a print screen has been randomly pasted in, I am not sure if this was intentional and I missed the point or not.

Goodnight

Dast,

I'm a huge fan of your idea! I hope that Lanrak likes it too, because it's the route I'd like to take.

There are only a few things I'd like to change:
-HQs have their traits, with one being primary and any others being secondary.
-Every other model has a single trait. If it matches the primary they are core, if it matches the secondary it is support, and if it doesn't match at all it is elite.


So we'll go back to Orks because we all know and love them

Warboss - Green Tide, (Shiney Stuffs, Ork Grafting)
Big Mek - Shiney Stuffs, (Ork Grafting, Warphead)
Big Doc - Ork Grafting, (Warphead, Green Tide)
Weirdboy - Warphead, (Green Tide, Shiney Stuffs)

Example Green Tide:
-Gretchins
-Nobz

Example Shiney Stuffs:
-Biker boyz
-Deffkoptas

Example Ork Grafting:
-Painboyz

Example Warphead:
-Weirdboyz

Then anything we never want to move can simply have the tag "Core" "Support" or "Elite" and we don't have to come up with more terms.


How does that sound?

Also, the bullet format rules are actually the ones that haven't been translated yet My goal is to make it so anyone can pick up the rulebook, read it once through, and get 80% of the rules. To do this, I have to assume the player has no wargaming knowledge so things are getting fleshed out. I know I have a tendency to overly flesh things out, hence why I'm glad I've got other eyes to look it over

Hi all.
I do like Dast's idea.
A long while ago , (I just found the old sheets last night.)I wanted a diverse Ork Amy list.
I used symbols to denote the HQs state .
'Spannaz' for Tech level, 'Dakka's' ranged, 'Choppas' for close assault ,''plates' for armour and 'Wheelz' for speed.

However, a simpler system to fits Dast's idea might be the inclusion of an ODDBOSS in the Warboss/(lord) retinue?

EG
Warboss/(lord.) Green Tide,(Standard).OR Speedfreek, (Warbike.)

The warboss sets Boys and Grot Mobs as core if 'Green Tide'. Or Trukk mobs , Warbuggies and Warbikes if 'Speedfreek '.

The Warboss(lord) MUST have a retinue of 4 to 9 Nobs and an Oddboss.

Oddboss.(Oddboys Skill /Prefered unit .)

Painboss.(Docs Tools/Bionork )(Goffs)

Mekboss (Meks Tools / Kustom Speshulz) (EvilSunz/Deffskulls.)

Weirdboss.(Psychic Power/ Weird uns.)(Bad Moons)

Runtboss .(Savagery /Squig-juiced)(Snakebites.)

Drillboss.(Military tactics/ Sneeky Gits.) (Blood Axes)

This way the Warboss defines which units are core .(Green Tide or Speedfreeks.)

And the ODDBOSS lets another units be taken as additional core choices for every 2 normal core choices..

(Normal Oddboy units are taken as support units.)

Eg A Warboss(Green tide)with A Painboss in his retinue.
Can take a single unit of Killakans or Deffdreads (Both Bionork units.)For every 2 Mobs of Ork Boys/Grots.(Green tide.)

This will help theme the army ,but hopefully not be too complicated .
I may have to explain this a bit better...

I'm thinking we should make it as customizable as possible, and the way to do that is a combination of what we've been saying.

I don't think the retinue should be what determines the structure of the army, but rather the HQ themselves determine it.

We'll go with 5 HQ choices for Orks that just provide the foundation. 5 may sound limiting, but hear me out.

Warboss
-Green Tide
Mekboss
-Shiny Stuff
Painboss
-Ork Grafting
Weirdboss
-Warphead
Gretchinboss
-Gretchin Power!

Those are purely just the base profile for people to go off of, and the primary trait they have.

From there, you buy upgrades with certain bosses having certain options.

For instance, a bike can be an upgrade for the first 4 bosses that gives the trait "Biker" and will allow anything with the "Biker" trait to be taken as core.



I'm pretty busy today so I can't spend a whole heck of a lot of time coming up with examples, and I'm sure that will result in a poor quality of explanation But I just wanted to get the information out there

Hi Rabid.
I was looking at the old Ork background.I was trying to reverse engineer the 'Pick a Klan this sets the number of and type of Oddboys in the warband'.

Most Ork warbands are led by a Warboss.They provide the muscle in the form of loads of boys/nobs/grot mobs..
Its the oddboys that set the theme of the Ork warband.(Based on the old background in Epic SM, and 2nd ed.)

Warbosses are all about fighting.
Whether running, or riding into combat, close up and smashing heads is where they want to be.

The oddboys /oddbosses set the theme and style of the warband, but do not control it.They set the type of support units available and the Kulture of the mobs.

Letting an Oddboss run a warband seems a bit off ?

A Freebooter unit maybe.
Renagade Mekboss and a mob of Speedfreeks or Supagunz.
Renagade Painboss and a mob of cyborks, or Dredmob
Renagade Runtboss and a mob of supagrots or cyboars.
Renagade Weirdboss and a madboyzmob. or wierd tower
Renagade Drillboss and a mob of Stormboyz or Khorneboyz.
Kaptin and a mob of Flash gitz.(Boys NOT nobs!)

I think we are all on the same track.But my fondness for the old background may make me a bit hesitant to simplify the structure enough.

How about letting the Warboss have a set number of Oddboys in the warband.(eg 1 to 3)
And the Oddboys allow ONE associated unit to become 'Core'?

Ill try to develop a simple system using this later....

Lanrak,

I do think we are on the same track, and now we're just working out specifics with Orks. I think we should hold off on the specifics for a little while

So to summarize what I believe we have agreed upon for the Force Organization:

Games will decide upon the number of HQ units and points, suggestion will be 1 HQ per 1,500 points and games are going to be optimized around 1,500 points.

So, for every HQ taken there will be:
8 Core slots
4 Support slots
2 Elite slots


The HQ chosen will have a primary traits and secondary traits. Every unit in the codex will also have a single trait.

The following traits are Core units:
-Units with the trait Core
-Units with a trait that matches a primary trait of the HQ

The following traits are Support units.
-Units with the trait Support
-Units with a trait that matches a secondary trait of the HQ

The following traits are Elite units.
-Units with the trait Elite
-Units with no traits that match up with the HQ's
-Additional HQ units that are not the Warlord


Does this sum it all up? If so I think we've actually managed to cover all the core rules of the game

We've just got a couple advanced rules we've touched on, but not completed.
-Missions and Deployment
-Warlord powers
-Psychic powers

Warlord powers are not required at all, the psyker stuff is a pretty big player, and the missions and deployment are critical.

I have suggestions for everything regarding psykers so far, so I'll sum them up here:
-Psyker level # (#)
---The first number is how many spells they can use in a turn, the second number is how many spells they know. Psychic powers are not random, but are instead chosen when planning the army.
-Psychic infused
---A replacement for Force weapons. It deals D3 wounds instead of instant death.
-I haven't thought at all about Psychic Hoods, Adamantium Will, or any psychic denial stuff.

Biomancy:

Clairvoyancy

Pyrokinesis

Telekinesis

Telepathy



I've come up with both Attacker and Defender missions as well. Take a look and tell me what you think:

Attacker:
1 - Rescue

2 - Kill points

3 - Sieze Ground

4 - Highway to Victory

5 - All out attack

6 - Assassination

Defender:
1 - Gun Battery:

2 - Communications network

3 - Supply cache

4 - Defense grid

5 - Sacred Relic

6 - Kill points

Hi Rabid.
Yes the basic army structure you outline is fine and dandy!
We can hash out specifics later.

(Perhaps this is how the races differ, some simply have equipment upgrades, some have biological differences, some training doctrines, some have 'special advisors' etc.)

I really like the missions you have done!

However, we may adjust them a bit after play testing.(I would prefer them to be hidden untill the game ends.)

But to put a basic outline for missions.
Take and hold ground.(EG 18" wide strip across the playing area.)

Capture objectives.(3 objectives across the table.)

Ensure a random friendly unit survives the battle .

Destroy a particular type of enemy unit.

Capture enemy unit.

I think we are really making good progress...
I will hopefully get time to fully read through your rules WIP , and maybe even a bit of playtesting...

Lanrak,

I'm glad that you have the same idea that I do, you just missed it

Missions are hidden from your opponent until the game ends, unless you have one that says to reveal at the beginning (i.e. Rescue for the Attacker, and Gun Battery and Sacred Relic fo the Defender)


I think having different races with different ways to create their army is going to be the best way forward. Some are pretty obvious (Khorne marked HQs make Khorne units core) but some are much harder (I'm looking at you Tyranids) because there aren't a whole lot of ways to make the army. We'll cross those bridges when we come to them


Sweet, so missions are as far as they can go until play testing. Also they're the easiest part of the rulebook to change from playtesting

Now for deployments.

Personally I was thinking of these three because I'm not very creative on deployments haha:
-Long table edges out to 12"
-Diagnols with a 24" gap between the armies
-One army has the middle 24", the other army has the two short table edges out to 12"

The third deployment type is the one that I can't think of, hence the kind of strange one for that.

Hello again,

I really like the idea's behind all of the missions. They are all quite nice.

My only real change would be "sacred relic". I think it would be more interesting if you placed three objectives as normal (not telling your opponent your mission).

Then on turn 2 (or when your oponent catches one) you reveal your mission, two objectives are removed and the third is the relic.

This might be overly complex, I just thought a bit more surprise would be fun.

Hi folks.
Had quick read through the rules WIP. Basicaly very sound and well written.

I think we could simplify some areas a bit.(But that could be down to personal preference.)
Eg list movement distance and movement type under one heading , 'Mobility'.

As reguards deployment.
Opposing long table edges as in 'normal attack defend type game'.
Opposing short table edges as in 'normal meeting engagement'
Opposing corners as a change.

Other deployment types work well with specific narrative missions.(The Last Stand, Break out,etc.) I would like these to be left to the players to develop or as separate missions book.


I am at a loss to why you think Nids would be hard to theme?(Well we could add back some old cool units!)

Hive Tyrant with bio modifications for basic gun line /foot swarm / flying circus.

Brood lord for Elite Genestealer based army .

'Lictor(?) ' for stealth

Genestealer Magnus for cultists and Psychic abilities.

(Oh dear I think I am getting all carried away with the old rules and narrative from RT/2nd again! )

Dast,

I'm not sure if I agree on making it a three objective map again for a couple reasons.
1 - An opposing army should know if something is that sacred and will go after it.
2 - The three objective missions all have their objectives outside of the deployment zone. I don't think that matches up with a sacred relic very well.

We still need to play test all of these, so we should definitely try it in the three objective format. I've been wrong before, and I'm sure I'll be wrong again


Lanrak,

The reason I was saying Tyranids might be a little harder is because some themes are blatant (like genestealer cults) but some themes all have the same HQ (swarms, warrior heavy, and nidzilla all have a Hive Tyrant until recently) so that is the hardest. I'll definitely man the helm on that one though and come up with everything I can for the v0.2 release of the Tyranid Codex.

Once I finish the rulebook, we'll see where we can combine things I was trying to keep it as logically organized as possible, grouping all the actions in the Action Phase section and all the characteristics in the Unit Profile section.

I think deployments are probably the best route to go. I'm not a fan of the short table edge deployments, though that is probably because of bad experiences with 6th edition. With the overall increase in mobility between armies I think that won't be a problem


All,

Have you had the chance to read over the psychic powers? Those are the last core thing that has any real complexity to them. The rest will just need play testing to balance out, or are advanced rules we don't need to worry about yet.

Some quick notes on changes in the rulebook:
-Completely took out effective range. With the unit cards that we're doing this isn't necessary at all and just adds complexity.
-A couple of the advanced rules aren't included in it currently. I think Deep Cover I took out, and I think there was one other. After we play test the game we can add these in if we feel they are missing.


I am about to get a ton of free time on my hands, but unfortunately I won't have my armies to be able to play test Over the next three weeks I plan on finishing the rulebook, and at least 4 codices (hopefully them all.) I think I've got a pretty good idea of the format now, and I'm going to try to do Orks first. Orks seem to be a good codex for us all to work with

Lanrak, if you think you can get the Ork codex done over the next week or so I'd still like you to do it. However, I understand that there are higher priorities in life so there is no pressure

Hello,

I have read the psychic powers. They seem cool, although I am having difficulty seeing the balance of things in these new measurement units.

I am happy to make a stab at an Imperial guard codex. I would make some changes to the guard other than a simple conversion to our rule set, and wanted to run the main changes past you:

Units:
-rough riders can upgrade to have xenos mounts of various kinds, which improves them. (for example giant ostrich things for speed, cold ones for close combat punch).

-new unit, dragoons. Like rough riders but with standard lasgun + special weapon armament instead of lances.

-Mutant rabble, cannon fodder, very, very low LD. Potentially moderately useful mutation options (things like plus 2 movement)

-Skitari - Cyborgs! borrowed or allied from the adaptus mechanicus. (maybe too weird?)

-attack dogs (up-gradable to xeons equivalents?)?

-storm troopers will likely be modifiied.


HQ choices:

-Command tank - Lemun Russ with command points etc. If this is your warlord, makes tanks core.

-Feral cheiften - Pychopath, better fighter than basic commander but less good at actually commanding. Can be given (along with command squad) mounts (either xenos or horses). Makes rough riders, dragoons and attack dogs core, perhaps has an option to ride an alien dinosaur?

-General -Standard commander, more or less unchanged at the moment, might think of more.

- Ogryn/rattling commander? (cool, maybe too weird)

-"redeemed" ganger - underhive gang leader, who has naturally become unofficially the "commander" of an army of convicts sent in to battle to die. Low leadership, but, makes those convict people (forget the name), attack dogs and mutant rabble core. Can take mutant options for himself and retinue. Allows normal troops to have things like infiltrate. (again maybe too weird)

-Arch commisar?


Retinues:
-I was thinking all commanders would be able to add a guy with a company standard to their retinue to improve LD of nearby units. (For the tank the banner is attached to the tank, not carried by a guy alongside it).

-All of them would be able to take either a psycker or an eccelarstry priest in their retinues. (changing secondary traits). For the tank commander the psycker inside could be resolved simply by giving the tank some psionic powers (our system doesn't make this a problem).

-An imperial torturer (tortures aliens, heretics etc for information. Not an inquisitor because its part of the imperial guard). Makes the command unit cause fear. (this works even if he's in a tank).

Primaris psyckers (the powerful ones) would not be an HQ choice, but instead a unit with the "sanctioned psycker" trait. (meaning its eleite if you dont have a psycker in the command squad, and support if you do).

Am I trying to cram too many changes in, or is this stuff good?

Dast,

Those all sound like they would be good additions, though I caution you that trying internally and externally balance with a bunch of new units is going to be difficult. Both trying to think of all the combinations and it will require extensive play testing. Unfortunately I do not have access to an IG army so I actually won't be able to help play test IG in any fashion (besides maybe proxying low points.)

I will say that I'm really glad you're bringing back a full fledged armored company That was one of my favorite things in the Chapter Approved a while back.


These are the units I completely support adding:
-The Rough Rider changes. I think having a cavalry oriented force would add a very unique flavor to 40k. Dragoons fit in here too.
-Command Tank. Armored company has to be an option for IG, I'm a little sad they moved away from it.
-Feral Chieftan. This goes with the Rough Rider comments.
-I think you're on the right track with the retinue, though I don't have the best perspective on that and I'm curious how you'll go forward

Units I don't agree with adding:
-Mutant rabble. I think that conscripts fit this bill already, and that we shouldn't be adding more units of the same flavor personally.
-Attack dogs. Though they may have a place in a Feral army, so don't let me stop you from making them if you have a vision.
-Skitari. I'm actually thinking about enlisting someone from the community to make an Adeptis Mechanicus Codex.
-Ogryn/Ratling commander. I really don't think a mutant should be able to rise to such a rank, it doesn't seem to fit IG. Putting them in a retinue is an option though.
-Redeemed ganger. Same reasons as the Ogryn/Ratling commander.



I realize that I never mentioned this, but here are all the codices that I think we should have.

Imperium:
-Space Marines (Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Black Templar, all of them)
-Imperial Guard
-Inquisitorial Forces (Grey Knights, Sisters, etc.)
-Adeptus Mechanicus (maybe)

Chaos:
-Chaos Space Marines
-Renegade Forces (Traitor Guard, Renegade Marines)
-Chaos Daemons

Xenos:
-Tau
-Eldar
-Dark Eldar
-Tyranids
-Orks
-Necrons

Hello Rabid,

Thanks for the feedback! It seems my favourite idea's are the ones you also like, the ones that i was less keen on are the ones you suggested you werent so keen on.

I will begin work on a first draft very soon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hello again,

One small thing to look at with the Tyranid dex.

It sais the Tyrant may choose any 2 of the weapons on the list.

One of the "weapons" is his close combat attack. Its obvious he is supposed to have this by default, but it doesn't actually say it.

Dast,

I'm going to be going back through the codex soon so please let me know any errors or unclear things you find. I'm considering breaking it up a little bit better by saying pick one from this table and pick one from this table. This leaves the duplicate options as still viable, which is what I was trying to figure out how to do.

As for the Melee attack, I had anticipated that people could "choose" it as an option; however, every other option is vastly superior so I was hoping nobody would do that haha.


Thanks for letting me know that it was unclear though, it's going to help a lot

Hi folks .
I wonder if it would be a good idea to work out the basic structure , and 'theme method' we are going to use for the army composition lists?
Here is a proposal for review.

The INFANTRY HQ mobility type makes units of the same mobility type core choices, and others mobility types special.(As primarily most armies in 40k are infantry/creature based.)

IG HQ on foot, IG platoons core, (Basic infantry.)
IG HQ in chimera , Iron Fist mounted IG platoons in chimera core.(Mobile infantry.)
IG HQ mounted on beasts/bikes , 'Rough Riders' become core.(Mounted Infantry.)

Other more specialised unit formations are covered by 'multiple specialised units' bringing their own advisors to add to the existing HQ making it specialised.
EG
If an IG force selects a minimum of 2 of Ab-human special unit choices.They may add an advisor from the relevent Administorum to the HQ unit.
(Preacher 'redeeming lost souls', Staff officer in charge of penal batallions etc.Sorry my IG fluff is very out of date!)
This advisor lets 2 additional units of this type be taken as core unit choices. And the HQ becomes specialised too!

I am a bit unsure of letting extreme builds into the new organisation.
For example if an Armoured Company is just made up of tanks , it is not very practical or fun to play /play against..(Same as a heavy artillery list made up of just of heavy fire power guns..)

An example using Mobile infantry as a base......(Mobile infantry supported by mobile tanks.)
HQ in Chimera.
4 Squads Platoons in Chimera
2 battle tanks as Special units.
2 more tanks taken as Core units.
A Single Armoured Commander Advisor added to the HQ.(May be in a vehicle?)

This leaves 2 core unit choices,2 more special choices, and 2 rare choices to fill out the force in an Armoured company theme...(Many BUT NOT ALL TANKS!)

Anyhow on with the basic concept..

The basic list requires ONE HQ option to be taken with 2 core unit choices, as a minimum.
The basic HQ counts as a level 3 command value.
This can be upgraded to a level 4 command value 'warlord'.
IF the army is 'specialised' on a theme this may let the army leader be upgraded to an extra level.(Special HQ level 4, Special warlord HQ Level 5.)

For every 5+ core unit choices , an additional HQ unit of the same type as the original can be added at ONE level lower.
EG if your army had an Ork Warlord(level 4) and 5 Boyz Mobs , they may take an additional Warboss (Level 3) which may take its own retinue .2 'normal' core unit choices must be taken with this new HQ.

Every TWO special units of the SAME type , allows an 'Advisor' to be added to the HQ making it a Specialised HQ.
For every special advisor the HQ has 2 'special units' of the same type may be taken as core.
If ALL selected specialised units of the same type are taken , and Additional Specialised HQ unit may be added.(It counts 2 of the specialised units as its core unit minimum.)

It is an idea based on what player selection allowing enhanced 'theme' in the force...

I probably made a mess of explaining it though.

I am wondering if we could just use basic 'stat swapping ' theme/doctrine on top of this.

EG, PICK ONE of the following...
A)Scouting type force drops one armour point but increses movement value by 1"(Light infantry/recon units.)

B)Feral type force drops effective ranged weapon range by 6", but increases assault skill by 1.

C)Harrasing type force increases effective weapon range by 6", but reduces assault skill by 1.

D)Defencive line force, increase stealth by 1, reduce movement by 1.

I am aware this is not super detailed as the minatures are, but does it need to be?

Hello Lanrak,

My current system, whilst mechanically different from yours, I beleive is very much an equivalent way of acheiveing the same thing. Thanks for reminding me about penal legion stuff, I will add that now.

I havent finished stating things up, but my plan for force organisation is, at the moment:

HQ - Primary trait
Command tank - Armoured
Imperial general - Disciplined
Feral Cheiftain - Primitive

Each of them can gain the following secondary traits by taking advisers or upgrades.
-Psyker
-Faithful

Unit traits:
Guardsmen - Core
Veterans, Rattling snipers, Storm troopers - Disciplined
Rough riders, Dragoons, Ogryns - Primitive
Lemun Russes. Hellhounds (and the other things like hellhounds) - Armored
Basilisks (etc.) - Artillery
Vendetta's - Aerial
Primaris Psyker, Psyker battle squads - Psyker
Priests - Faithful

Units with the trait "core" or with the primary trait of your warlord are core.

Units with your warlords secondary trait are support.

The rest are eleite.

Currently "Artillery" and "Aerial" might as well say "eleite" as their is no way of getting these traits onto a warlord. At one point I was thinking of putting an "artillary officer" or "Imperial Navy representative" to make them support, but I now plan not to as these units strike me as being relatively rare.

You could currently make an army where every single model was a tank, you would always loose though, as they cant claim objectives.

I will add Penal auxilaries, do you think they should have the trait "core" or a new one "Penal" (with a command squad officer). I have yet to decide what to do with sentinals too, they don't seem to fit nicely into my current chunks and I don't want to over-do it with too many themes. Maybe they should just be "support", end of story.