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How about this then:

Q. Which Eldar psychic powers are psychic shooting attacks? (p28)
A. Destructor, Eldritch Storm and Mind War (though they include
a few exceptions to the normal shooting rules, as specified in
their description).

Note that Destructor is a Warlock power. If it is not a psychic power as you claim (with no backing), then it cannot be a Eldar psychic power, let alone a PSA.

easysauce wrote:
One side is interpretting "different powers stack"

as identical powers stack,

That's a lie. Stop perpetuating it.

for the record, I would LOVE it if HH and enfeeble both stacked with themselves, since I have acess to both...

but there is no rule saying they stack, and no one has yet quoted an actual rule to allow stacking


the lack of a rule disallowing something does not mean it is allowed,

the lack of a rule allowing something, does mean it is disallowed.

get the point now?
your models do not move 6" because there is no rule saying they cannot move 7-infinity "s, your models move because there is a rule saying they can move 6"

the burden of proof is not on the non stackers to find a rule dis-allowing the stack,

the burden of proof is on the stackers to find a rule allowing the stack

now find the specific rule that allows you to stack identical powers (not cast, stack, you can cast stealth multiple times, does not mean it stacks, stack=/=cast)

hammerhand is identical to hammerhand, regardless of caster, again, that is not RAW, and just silly, not a logical arguement, that different caster = different power.

again cast does not equal stack, caster does not equal power, you have proven neither point

nos, stop attacking me personally, my reading is fine,
I read the force/fnp rules better then you and the others who were wrong on that, and on this, so lets keep the arguement to the rules, not the person

easysauce wrote:
nos, stop attacking me personally, my reading is fine,
I read the force/fnp rules better then you and the others who were wrong on that, and on this, so lets keep the arguement to the rules, not the person

Pot, kettle. Reported.

Sorry Happy, I haven't read the Eldar faq in a while. So it's a psychic power.

With a sentence stating that it doesn't stack... some CSM powers state that they do stack and others don't, one of the two is reminder text and the other is a rule. Which or both are rules compared to reminder text?

Anyone have a 4th ed BRB so solve this? With the question is there an explicit rule in the 4th ed BRB ruling one way or another?

If we're going to start argue precedents then remember that HH explicitly stacked in 5th.

Jegsar - why re you not resolving the power fully when it is cast, before moving on? What is giving you permission to wait?

Hammerhand says +1S. So you actually do that. The unit is now S5. they are not S4+1, they are S5.

You then cast it again, you are S5+1 = S6.

Find a rule saying otherwise.

As a reminder, Rule Number One is Be Polite. If discussing toy soldiers on Dakka gets your blood pressure up, it's time to take a break and remember this isn't worth it. In the words of The Humungus, Just walk away.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:If we're going to start argue precedents then remember that HH explicitly stacked in 5th.

No doubt, but you could also cast Eldar psychic powers out of transports so rules can change. The specific wording stated that in the FAQ, that is now gone. The only precedent I am looking for is whether or nothing the last sentence in a paragraph is used to change a rule specifically for a power or as reminder text of the general rule. It the Eldar sentence changes a rule, then I put forth that so does the CSM sentences. (it's only on a few of the modifier powers and not all of them) If it were all or non would be more inclined to think of it as reminder text.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Jegsar - why re you not resolving the power fully when it is cast, before moving on? What is giving you permission to wait?
...
Find a rule saying otherwise.

Page 2, Multiple Modifiers, (Not just HH but anything that mods a characteristic) states the order in which the characteristic is affected. First Multiply/Divide, then Add/Subtract, then Set values. This disregards the timing of when a specific power is cast. HH does say it is applied first so that would change the order of the rule but that is the only thing that separates HH from any other psychic power. So if you cast +1 strength, then on my turn i divide your strength by 2, it doesn't divide the +1 by 2, meaning the Strength must be recalculated each time it is checked.

INcorrect. Dividing by 2 is multiplication, and the +1 is before multiplication.

So your model IS S5. then S6.

Find a RULE saying it is not S6 atht eh time you resolve the power. Find a rule saying it modifies the unmodified strength only

Uhh... Huh? Nos I don't understand what you are saying. He said "why re you not resolving the power fully when it is cast, before moving on? What is giving you permission to wait? "

Once again i'll try to explain...
It does resolve and put the effect "+2 str" on the unit.
But that doesn't make the unit st 6 (assuming base 4) it just means that they have str 4 with an effect "+2 str" (Note this is not from hammerhand, just a made up psychic power called "strength, targeted unit gets +2 strength")

Then I cast something that divides their strength by 2.
Acording to page two the process would be 4/2+2=4 instead of (4+2)/2=3

Note that I can even cast this a player turn apart and get the same effect. That is why it "waits" doesn't wait but the effects have to be recalculated each time they are checked.

resolving a power, is not the same as stacking that power with itself,

again, we are equating unlike terms here

cast=/=stack
resolve=/=stack

Yet Hammerhand is done before multiplication, which includes division.

You cast hammerhand. You add +1S. You are now S5. Please explain how the second casting, which does not specify that it only works against unmodified strength, or that one or more castings of hammerhand give +1S, or ANY of the self limiting phrases used all over 40k - EXPLAIN, using rules, why that unit is not, now, S6

Rules, this time. You have yet to supply any rules.

easysauce wrote:
resolving a power, is not the same as stacking that power with itself,

again, we are equating unlike terms here

cast=/=stack
resolve=/=stack

In this case it is, since in order for Hammerhand to be resolved you need to increase the strength of the unit by 1.

so you are saying that any psychic power, HH, enfeeble, ect, that grants +/- to a stat, stacks with itself, by virtue of the power simply applying a +/- modifier to the unit...

I could see it that way I guess, and I would prefer to since it obviously gives me a HUGE boost tactics wize, if it hasnt been FAQ'ed by now with all the nid/gk players doing this, maybe I am denying myself a big boost. It just there really isnt clear RAW (clear RAW, im not saying there isnt a rule saying you can cast the same power on a unit, im just saying there is no clear rule saying the same power stacks (or doesnt stack))


ill just play it as they do stack till its FAQ'ed since that seems to be the de'jour now anyway and many nid builds go to tourneys and stack enfeeble up the wazzoo,

as long as everyones on the same page, and people go into tourneys expecting enfeeble/HH/whatever stacking, that is what matters,

Nos, I'm talking about all psychic powers not just hammerhand, notice how I even changed it from +1 to +2 to make it even more different. Rules are on page 2, like i said before. The only difference between hammer hand and iron arm (for example) is the timing of the the addition.

Back to so far the best argument brought up at the moment that we haven't heard a rules opinion on was brought up by Happy, and then I posed the follow question.

Sorry Happy, I haven't read the Eldar faq in a while. So it's a psychic power.

With a sentence stating that it doesn't stack... some CSM powers state that they do stack and others don't, one of the two is reminder text and the other is a rule. Which or both are rules compared to reminder text?

Anyone have a 4th ed BRB so solve this? With the question is there an explicit rule in the 4th ed BRB ruling one way or another?

So i'll ask again, which is reminder text and which is modifying a rule, please quote how you know which is which from either the 6th or 4th ed rule books.

easysauce wrote:
so you are saying that any psychic power, HH, enfeeble, ect, that grants +/- to a stat, stacks with itself, by virtue of the power simply applying a +/- modifier to the unit...

Well since math says 1+1 =2 Math says that for us.

easysauce wrote:
but there is no rule saying they stack, and no one has yet quoted an actual rule to allow stacking

Again you do not need specific permission, as you have a blanket permission to cast two hammerhand Psychic powers, with different psykers, and target the same unit, and we know, through math, that 4 + 1 = 5 and 5 + 1 = 6.

What you are asking would be like saying "Show me where an infantry unit can fire bolters and missile launchers in the same shooting phase" You will not find that line because you have blanket permission to fire your weapons in the shooting phase, and already have permission without explicitly mentioning all of the weapons you may fire in the shooting phase.

Two different psychic powers, Power A says it stacks, power B says it does not stack, which is a rule, and which is a reminder, how do you know?

 jegsar wrote:
Two different psychic powers, Power A says it stacks, power B says it does not stack, which is a rule, and which is a reminder, how do you know?

Two different psychic powers do indeed stack.

This is different than saying 'Two of the same powers do not stack.' There is no restriction like this on Psychic powers. There is a blanket allowance to cast psychic powers on the same target. Find something that restricts this permission.

If you can not then you have to see the flaw in your argument.

The argument on this is going around in a circle. The core of the issue is on page 25 of the GK codex, under the "Hammerhand" entry:

"Note that this Strength bonus is applied before any other modifiers, such as for Nemesis Daemon hammers and so forth."

Per the 5th Edition GK FAQ, GW reminded us that their intent was for Hammerhand to apply before multipliers, and that the bonus could stack with multiple applications.

In 6th Edition, we have the "Multiple Modifiers" rule on page 2 of the BRB that tells us the order of opperation for applying modifiers, addition/subtraction first, multipliers second, replacement values last. Per "Hammerhand", the Strength bonus is applied before any additions, subtractions, multipliers, or replacement values; i.e. Strength 4 becomes Strenght 5.

On page 32 of the BRB, we are reminded that psychic powers are special rules, and with special rules:

"Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefits of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative."

On page 68 of the BRB, under "Resolve Psychic Power", we are again reminded that:

"Unless otherwise stated, the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative."

It would seem that while 5th Edition allowed for power stacking, 6th Edition does not unless otherwise stated. We can all agree that "Hammerhand" and "Might of Titan" are different psychic powers, and therefore per the rules do stack (which the "Might of Titan" entry points out in any case). What we seem to be able to agree on is whether or not "Hammerhand" cast by a Grand Master stacks with "Hammerhand" cast by a Librarianstacks with "Hammerhand" cast by a unit of Brotherhood Psykers. The note that Hammerhand's Strength bonus is applied before any other modifiers does not seem to override the repeated reminders that benefits from the same power or special rule do not stack (unless stated otherwise).

The only conclusion I can see is that in 6th Edition, until otherwise noted by GW, Hammerhand no longer stacks with itself.

SJ

so let me see if I have it right

I run two librarians, each with hammer hand, and might of titan,

so each lib grants +1str, and +1str and +d6 armor penetration to the unit.

for a total of +4 str and +2d6 armor penetration from the two librarians.

throw two tech marines in there, who can also cast hammer hand, and are IC's, and you are at str 10, +2d6 armor pen, at initiative

so everyone saying it stacks, as do all +/- psychic powers, that's how it should be right?

Yes.

everyone other then jeffersonian000 who brings up a decent point and myself. Now that i'm home let me do some real research on this.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
In 6th Edition, we have the "Multiple Modifiers" rule on page 2 of the BRB that tells us the order of opperation for applying modifiers, addition/subtraction first, multipliers second, replacement values last.

This is wrong.
The order is Multipliers (multiplication/division) THEN addition / subtraction. Not the other way round.

On page 32 of the BRB, we are reminded that psychic powers are special rules, and with special rules:

Also wrong.
Page 32 says "a model might get Special rules as the result of Psychic Powers".
The powers aren't special rules, but they might grant them. A power that grants Relentless would be an example of this, not one that grants +1 Str.

Finally thank you jefferson, i knew I wasnt imagining things... as much as I WANT str 10 striking at initiative GKs, AND rad grenades and enfeeble....






Automatically Appended Next Post:
the special rule is not +1str, that is the modifier imparted by the special rule/psychic power

+1str is the EFFECT of the special rule "hammer hand"

easysauce wrote:
Finally thank you jefferson, i knew I wasnt imagining things... as much as I WANT str 10 striking at initiative GKs, AND rad grenades and enfeeble....

Both points of his argument were flawed.

the special rule is not +1str, that is the modifier imparted by the special rule/psychic power

+1str is the EFFECT of the special rule "hammer hand"

Hammer Hand is a power, not a special rule.
+1 Str is the effect of the power.
Neither are a Special Rules.

quoting more of the rule book
RAW
pg 32

"whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule [/u. A special rule might improve a model's chances of causing damage, by granting it poisoned weapons or a boost [u]to its strength."

also pg 32 "unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more then once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative."
also pg 32 "a model might get special rules as the result of psychic powers,"

pg 32
"whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule"

psychic powers fall into the category of ability, and whenever means whenever, not just "whenever you feel like it"

also, psyker, is listed under the USR page 41 as a SPECIAL RULE

"psyker: a model with THIS SPECIAL RULE is a psyker."



now lets see some quoted pages that refute that please, everything else is HYWPI

A Special Rule might improve a models Strength.
Furious Charge does.
Not everything that grants a Strength bonus is a Special Rule.

A Psychic power might grant a Special Rule.
Endurance does (3 in fact)
Not every Psychic power grants a Special Rule.

Hammer Hand is not a Special Rule. It's a Psychic Power.
+1 Str is not a Special Rule.

you are not quoteing RAW
pg 32
"whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule"

psychic powers fall into the category of ability, and whenever means whenever, not just "whenever you feel like it"

also, psyker, is listed under the USR page 41 as a SPECIAL RULE

"psyker: a model with THIS SPECIAL RULE is a psyker."

easysauce wrote:
you are not quoteing RAW
pg 32
"whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules,"

psychic powers fall into the category of ability,

No, they don't. They're Psychic Powers and have their own chapter dedicated to them. Perhaps you've read it?