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Basically your opponent had a load of points in reserve and you underestimated them and you lost. 25 years of experience and you can't adapt to to new rules well they do say old dogs can't learn new tricks. Flyers are not hard to take down they can't score they often fly off the bored they often turn up late or not at all. They have poor armour,

You took the new jet fighter which although is described as a fighter jet its only real use is anti infantry and its way over costed no one uses them and I play at warhammer world week in week out.

Complaining about price structure is ignorant and silly. Although I don't expect everyone to understand economics and a company business model. A simple explanation is inflation, in the uk inflation is approx 4.5% last time I looked. expecting a company not to raise there prices by this much every year is stupid or over even over a couple in one chunk. people still need paying believe it or not to pay their bills etc. finally a business has one objective; profit the investment companies which have a majority shareholding don't care what the fanatic player thinks they care about the mass market.

Saying that if you don't take fliers you will loose is the bit that makes me most disappointed I am really surprised that a player with your experience would say that. I don't own one I win the majority of my games winning about 4/5 .

Chaos do not need the dragon to kick arse at all there not even that great wow one flamer out manoeuvre it, there is so many weapons that can kill flyers with out sky fire.

Chaos bikes mark of nurgle with meltas cheap and insane

Chaos lord on juganaught axe of blind fury sigil

Plague marines still awesome

T5 terminators with good load out choices

Forge fiend 8 st 8 shots

There is so many good options in that book and you complain about a crappy dragon

kelewan wrote:
Basically your opponent had a load of points in reserve and you underestimated them and you lost. 25 years of experience and you can't adapt to to new rules well they do say old dogs can't learn new tricks. Flyers are not hard to take down they can't score they often fly off the bored they often turn up late or not at all. They have poor armour,

You took the new jet fighter which although is described as a fighter jet its only real use is anti infantry and its way over costed no one uses them and I play at warhammer world week in week out.

Complaining about price structure is ignorant and silly. Although I don't expect everyone to understand economics and a company business model. A simple explanation is inflation, in the uk inflation is approx 4.5% last time I looked. expecting a company not to raise there prices by this much every year is stupid or over even over a couple in one chunk. people still need paying believe it or not to pay their bills etc. finally a business has one objective; profit the investment companies which have a majority shareholding don't care what the fanatic player thinks they care about the mass market.

Saying that if you don't take fliers you will loose is the bit that makes me most disappointed I am really surprised that a player with your experience would say that. I don't own one I win the majority of my games winning about 4/5 .

Chaos do not need the dragon to kick arse at all there not even that great wow one flamer out manoeuvre it, there is so many weapons that can kill flyers with out sky fire.

Chaos bikes mark of nurgle with meltas cheap and insane

Chaos lord on juganaught axe of blind fury sigil

Plague marines still awesome

T5 terminators with good load out choices

Forge fiend 8 st 8 shots

There is so many good options in that book and you complain about a crappy dragon

Don't forget the new Spawn! But the Heldrake IS still a valid choice, great for clearing objectives.

I would call it balanced has limited use

Spaz431 wrote:

Fandarel wrote:


Look at SW, DE or others and you see a that Problem. No real Anti-Flyer Options!

Now I agree currently with the space wolves part (unless you paid attention to the death from the skies book because there is a flying ace space wolf upgrade (I cannot quote it at this time)), but the razorwing is still mean. "Oh you can deep strike and fire dark lances at 36" at this other flyer? You hit on a 3+ and treat all armor as a 12? So your telling me you have a 66% to hit and a 50% chance to glance or crash any flyer in the game?" Well sir I call that a valid anti-flyer option.

Second edit: my best game so far in this edition was THE BIG GAME last weekend. The world wide Apoc game which was hosted at the US GW store, here in Memphis. There was flyer spam, but nobody cared. There were leman parking lots. Only a total of 2 dakka jets (mine) and 2 helldrakes (1 was mine also). But it has reinvigorated me toward this game. My night lords look forward to the next apoc incursion they face. Maybe trying small games is no fun especially as you claimed, falcon to have been hobbying since 3rd Ed. I Am Not Critcizing, just advocating a more fun use of all your hard work. Because the one truest statement I have seen on any of the fan websites was, "No one needs to be told how to have fun."

Can you PM me about the Space Wolf Ace upgrade (not looking for rules just seeing what its about) as i was not going to get the book.. but might now . I have not seen anything about this before.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
On the game as a whole though, its actually a fairly minor change. Of all the army lists you can bring today, very few are negatively impacted by the lack of ability to assault from a rhino.

Yep, only Chaos Space Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Black Templars. 25% of the Codices (two of which are immensely popular) and every single MEQ Codex that's supposed to be meele-centric. No biggie.

Don't be silly.
- Wolves don't care. They drop pod and stand in your face waiting to be assaulted.
- CSM plague marines don't care. They hop out and wait to be assaulted (blight gernades FTW). Only khorne bezerkers care.

So that leaves BA and BT.
BT is not very popular. Hell, even GW has removed it as an '40k army' from their website.
If your BA and want a rhino rush your out of luck. That's not of the majority of the armies. If you want to assault with BA, take jump packs or land raiders.
As I said, its a small impact on the game as a whole.

There is so many good options in that book and you complain about a crappy dragon

how many points do you normaly play ? If you take nurgle bikers you wont be able to fit the khorn lord in to it , you also wont be able to take pms and forgefiend may have str 8 small blast templates which have a 24" range and kills around 2 dudes per shot , but those templates cant snap fire and wont target any flyers.

I Am Not Critcizing, just advocating a more fun use of all your hard work. Because the one truest statement I have seen on any of the fan websites was, "No one needs to be told how to have fun."

good for you. Only her we have max 2-3 tables 4x4-6 size and never have any apo games. There is one GW shop in the capital and there are even 4 tables there , but 1 is always taken up by the store clerks painting new stuff , two have the starter WFB and w40k armies on them and the last one is loaded with hobbit . When they made the world wide apo event there , everyone was told to bring 1 squad of no more then 5 models . on that day 2 guys had fun . 1 who brough crisis suits and 2 commanders and the other one had abadon a jugger lord and 3 oblits .
So for me saying that the game is fun at 2k+ size means nothing . I want the game to work at 1500pts or even 1850. Like it did in 3ed 4th and 5th ed.

 Redbeard wrote:
[Exactly. This kid is also likely to quit the game, unless the army is redone before he gets frustrated, so this cyclical design approach is not good for recruiting long-term customers. If someone picks the wrong army to start with, they're not going to enjoy the experience. It's probably good for short-term churn&burn sales though.

There is a lot of discuss here, but my time is short, so I'm going to focus on this...

Ok, so lets take a look at the kid who is buying Eldar. Right now his SOL, as Eldar are close to bottom tier (allies withstanding). However, with the rapid releases he can expect a new book to come out in the next 6-12 months. That's not unreasonable for someone who is enjoying painting, etc.

Compared to the 2006 era, when he would have been told that his next book will be out in another 3-5 years. If you tell that to a 20 year old kid, it a huge time frame! That's not something people will wait around for.

As people have mentioned, the new books are fairly 'bland'. Thus far none of the books released are nearly as overbalanced as IG/SW/GK were. These are good signs for the game as a whole, as it suggests the balanced approach will be used for future books.

Sure, people might complain about 'balanced books' but thus far there have been no 'ZOMG" books released. Helldrakes are good, but they are not an auto-win. DA bolter banner LR crusaders are very tough, but not an auto-win. Thus far things are looking good for 6th.

In regards to one book being 'built to last'. That's not going to happen with new editions of the game being released. The Eldar codex is suffering because the rules have changed. You can't assault from wave serpents. They are not more vulnerable to being assaulted. The holo-field is much weaker when you have only 3 hull points, etc....
If you were to never change the rules, then you could have a codex 'built to last', but since they are tweaking the rules to 'improve' them, then codex's will age. You may agree or disagree that 6th is better than 5th or 4th, but that's a different thread

 labmouse42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
On the game as a whole though, its actually a fairly minor change. Of all the army lists you can bring today, very few are negatively impacted by the lack of ability to assault from a rhino.

Yep, only Chaos Space Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Black Templars. 25% of the Codices (two of which are immensely popular) and every single MEQ Codex that's supposed to be meele-centric. No biggie.

Don't be silly.
- Wolves don't care. They drop pod and stand in your face waiting to be assaulted.
- CSM plague marines don't care. They hop out and wait to be assaulted (blight gernades FTW). Only khorne bezerkers care.

So that leaves BA and BT.
BT is not very popular. Hell, even GW has removed it as an '40k army' from their website.
If your BA and want a rhino rush your out of luck. That's not of the majority of the armies. If you want to assault with BA, take jump packs or land raiders.
As I said, its a small impact on the game as a whole.

Considering that you answered with a more eloquent version of (and, admittedly, much more polite) "just shoot the enemy, lol" I think it's pretty clear that you're missing the point I'm trying to make (or I'm failing to make it in a good way, or both): myself and a lot of other players don't want to have to take a (overwhelming) majority of our army as shooting units, we want to be able to play a melee-centric list and not be baby seals waiting for the clubbing. The Rhino nerf absolutely factors into this. Also, I dare say normal CSM would care, except for lacking ATSKNF (a pretty substantial minus, but bear with me) they're just as good as Grey Hunters in CC.

Furthermore, you didn't look very well. It's in the same place as every other loyalist Marine army bar Grey Knights were before they were updated.

I think the issue isn't just the Rhino nerfs though, so you're right on that, it's the fact that you have to be able to get across the board fast as well. For Marines, short of paying for Land Raiders, Rhinoes, Razorbacks and/or outflanking were the prime ways to do that, but now you can't assault from outflank and you're stuck standing around one turn after jumping out of a Rhino chassi. Add in all the other nerfs and it's getting more and more frustrating to get into close combat and it requires a heavier shooting to melee unit ratio shift to deal with stuff like fliers, which isn't what a lot of players want.

I sure know I could do with assaulting out of Rhinos for my Battle Conclaves and Repentia squads... As it is, they mostly end up chasing tailgates!

Edit: Chains tailgates? wtf Miko...

 labmouse42 wrote:

Ok, so lets take a look at the kid who is buying Eldar. Right now his SOL, as Eldar are close to bottom tier (allies withstanding). However, with the rapid releases he can expect a new book to come out in the next 6-12 months. That's not unreasonable for someone who is enjoying painting, etc.

Well, from what I've seen, most new players don't pick it up because they want to paint, they pick it up as a game. I base this on the number of unpainted armies that I see being played with at the shops, versus the number of painted ones. Also, if you're picking up models to paint, the rules are largely irrelevant. I haven't see Jen Haley or Natalia Melnik ever post in a rules thread. I know one GD painter who games regularly, but again, he's really not into what's good.

Anyhow, so, constraining the discussion to people who want to game and ignoring the idea that someone will be happy painting for six months (and sure, let's call it six months), do you think that the promise of a better book is enough to maintain someone's interest for six months in our society, where we demand instant gratification, and results? If you had bought a PC game and it was buggy (and, in terms of game design, an underpowered codex can be considered a bug), would waiting six months for a patch seem reasonable, or would you move on to something else?

Compared to the 2006 era, when he would have been told that his next book will be out in another 3-5 years. If you tell that to a 20 year old kid, it a huge time frame! That's not something people will wait around for.

Right, but neither is six months. But the other side of this comparison is that in the 2006 era, you didn't have to wait 3-5 years, because there wasn't this level of power difference between books. Like I said earlier, in 2006, I was playing an Ork codex published in 1999 and winning most of my games, and my friend was running DE from a codex published in 1998 and pulling Best Generals at GTs. Codexes of the same age now are Orks, Tau and Eldar, and they're the three you called out, above, as being notably week.

As people have mentioned, the new books are fairly 'bland'. Thus far none of the books released are nearly as overbalanced as IG/SW/GK were. These are good signs for the game as a whole, as it suggests the balanced approach will be used for future books.

Overbalanced? You mean overpowered. My issue isn't that the new books (and, indeed, 6th ed) is bland - though it does feel that way compared to the variety we had to work with in 2006 - it's that this "balanced" approach seems to be based on the idea that if they put enough really random crap in the game, sometimes you'll win and sometimes you'll lose, and therefore that's balance. And, in random crap, I don't just mean the tables you roll on, but also the types of missions, and number of archetypes. There's a much greater feeling of Rock-Paper-Scissors in 6th than I felt before.

My gaming group has noticed this in the number of real mismatch games we experience. Missions like "The Relic" really punish a footslogging force that goes second, while winning First Blood (often before your opponent has taken a turn at all) is the deciding factor in too many battles. I mean, really, if taking First Blood on turn 1 is going to win me the game, why even bother playing the rest of it out?

In regards to one book being 'built to last'. That's not going to happen with new editions of the game being released. The Eldar codex is suffering because the rules have changed. You can't assault from wave serpents. They are not more vulnerable to being assaulted. The holo-field is much weaker when you have only 3 hull points, etc....
If you were to never change the rules, then you could have a codex 'built to last', but since they are tweaking the rules to 'improve' them, then codex's will age. You may agree or disagree that 6th is better than 5th or 4th, but that's a different thread

Well, that's the other problem. They can't decide if they want to do iterative releases, as a progressive codex release schedule suggests, or re-writes, which is what the last couple of editions have been. So they try to do both, and do neither well.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Considering that you answered with a more eloquent version of (and, admittedly, much more polite) "just shoot the enemy, lol" I think it's pretty clear that you're missing the point I'm trying to make (or I'm failing to make it in a good way, or both): myself and a lot of other players don't want to have to take a (overwhelming) majority of our army as shooting units, we want to be able to play a melee-centric list and not be baby seals waiting for the clubbing. The Rhino nerf absolutely factors into this. Also, I dare say normal CSM would care, except for lacking ATSKNF (a pretty substantial minus, but bear with me) they're just as good as Grey Hunters in CC.

I agree with you that MEQ assault based armies are suffering.

Saying that its the "Assault Vehicle Nurf" as the culprit is not the real problem. In 5th edition, you would could not assault of a rhino if it moved. You were then forced to rush up, and hope that your opponent would stay within 14" of the rhino hatch. That's why it was commonly said 5th edition killed the rhino rush.

The problems with assault based MEQ today are the following
- Helldrake
- Fleet is less effective
- Increase in shooty armies

Look at all the successful assault based units in the game right now. They all have very similar traits -- they have a 12"+ move so are getting into assault quickly.
- Wraithspam
- CSM Spawn
- Seekers/Khorne Dogs
About the only MEQ loyalist squad I can think of that matches that criteria are twolf calvary. All the rest are suffering badly.
The real culprit is the helldrake. If its just as easy to kill MEQ as it is to kill GEQ, then it undervalues the points spent on MEQ armor. Why pay 14 points for a marine when a 5 point guardsman is just as durable? If you bring BA, the helldrakes will table your MEQ spam in 2-3 turns.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Furthermore, you didn't look very well. It's in the same place as every other loyalist Marine army bar Grey Knights were before they were updated.

Your missing the point. BA, SW, and GK all have their own listing on the left. BT are buried under C:SM. I would not be suprised if BT are merged into C:SM on the next C:SM codex release.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think the issue isn't just the Rhino nerfs though, so you're right on that, it's the fact that you have to be able to get across the board fast as well. For Marines, short of paying for Land Raiders, Rhinoes, Razorbacks and/or outflanking were the prime ways to do that, but now you can't assault from outflank and you're stuck standing around one turn after jumping out of a Rhino chassi. Add in all the other nerfs and it's getting more and more frustrating to get into close combat and it requires a heavier shooting to melee unit ratio shift to deal with stuff like fliers, which isn't what a lot of players want.

You could not outlfank and assault out of a rhino in 5th. The rhino had to move to come onto the board. You could walk on and assault, but your opponent had to be pretty close to the side for you to do that.

I've been playing since 1995 and I just don't agree with the OP. Fliers don't rule 6th. Over whelming shooting and deployment zone disruption does. Helldrake with bale flamer however, I've give you that, their a little over the top.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Saying that its the "Assault Vehicle Nurf" as the culprit is not the real problem. In 5th edition, you would could not assault of a rhino if it moved. You were then forced to rush up, and hope that your opponent would stay within 14" of the rhino hatch. That's why it was commonly said 5th edition killed the rhino rush.

Actually, that was true in 4th as well. 4th killed the Rhino rush, and the only vehicles that saw any real play in 4th were skimmers as a result. 5th toned down skimmers, but increased the survivability and decrease the cost on rhinos and chimeras, hence we saw a lot of them, but not the now overpriced skimmers.

6th goes a step further in nerfing assaulting and vehicles. Assault vehicles can only move 6" if you want to get out, and you can't assault out of a non-assault vehicle even if it didn't move.

From the 3rd ed days of rhino rushing, every subsequent edition has further nerfed the use of transports in assault armies.

I'm really just saying that even if you had the ass of a wave serpent to the enemy, sometimes that's a good thing. I'd rather be able to assault from a transport than need to footslog my units.

Better to take a dire avenger volley on the vehicle than on the unit, perhaps.

 Furyou Miko wrote:


You have to have them on the table, yes, but what I'm saying is that they don't have to be sacrificial. They're just a squad that were dropped in two minutes ahead of the rest of the army to deploy locator beacons to make sure the rest of the army arrives on target and deploy the heavier gear (like target relays). Use them tactically, not just as throw-aways to make the army legal.

Oh dont get me wrong I deploy them tactically (been using either camo cloak vets with snipers or a standard guard platoon) I ony said they are sacraficial because of the high number of bike armies and other very manuverable/fast lists at my store. No matter what they seem to get pasted by turn two...I really hate Ravenwing

 Redbeard wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

Saying that its the "Assault Vehicle Nurf" as the culprit is not the real problem. In 5th edition, you would could not assault of a rhino if it moved. You were then forced to rush up, and hope that your opponent would stay within 14" of the rhino hatch. That's why it was commonly said 5th edition killed the rhino rush.

Actually, that was true in 4th as well. 4th killed the Rhino rush, and the only vehicles that saw any real play in 4th were skimmers as a result. 5th toned down skimmers, but increased the survivability and decrease the cost on rhinos and chimeras, hence we saw a lot of them, but not the now overpriced skimmers.

6th goes a step further in nerfing assaulting and vehicles. Assault vehicles can only move 6" if you want to get out, and you can't assault out of a non-assault vehicle even if it didn't move.

From the 3rd ed days of rhino rushing, every subsequent edition has further nerfed the use of transports in assault armies.

On the other hand, you can now assault much farther out of an Assault Vehicle.

What a lot of people forget: We didn't lose 6" of movement with the change to the disembarking rules, we lost 2" of movement with the change to the disembarking rules and gained a potential 6" of movement.

Now you can move a transport 6", then move out of it 6", then assault 2d6". Before, it was move a transport 12", move out of it 2" then assault d6". Why do I say d6"? Because most of the time the thing you're assaulting will be in cover and you'll be rolling for Difficult Terrain.

on 2d6 with allowed custom bases , which couldnt only be smaller then the original ones .
And you could do it out of every transport that was stationary.

At least bikes are valid models for purchase now, from a CSM player perspective. 5ed was not good for them. 6ed is great on bikes

 labmouse42 wrote:

Saying that its the "Assault Vehicle Nurf" as the culprit is not the real problem. In 5th edition, you would could not assault of a rhino if it moved. You were then forced to rush up, and hope that your opponent would stay within 14" of the rhino hatch. That's why it was commonly said 5th edition killed the rhino rush.

Which is why I said that it's part of the problem. And yes, you couldn't assault out of a moving Rhino, but you'd still be a whole turn faster when it actually mattered. Technically, you can reach the enemy lines faster in a Rhino now (hull points aside), but you can react to the enemy a whole turn faster with 5th ed rules than with 6th. Combined with the unreliability of random charges, overwatch, everyone spamming plasma instead of melta and, as you mentioned, new stuff like Baleflamers, assaulty MEQ, who were moderately fast but had T4 anda 3+ to fall back on, now just drop dead, because shooting is that much better. Focus fire doesn't help either.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Furthermore, you didn't look very well. It's in the same place as every other loyalist Marine army bar Grey Knights were before they were updated.

Your missing the point. BA, SW, and GK all have their own listing on the left. BT are buried under C:SM. I would not be suprised if BT are merged into C:SM on the next C:SM codex release.

Emphasis says it all.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think the issue isn't just the Rhino nerfs though, so you're right on that, it's the fact that you have to be able to get across the board fast as well. For Marines, short of paying for Land Raiders, Rhinoes, Razorbacks and/or outflanking were the prime ways to do that, but now you can't assault from outflank and you're stuck standing around one turn after jumping out of a Rhino chassi. Add in all the other nerfs and it's getting more and more frustrating to get into close combat and it requires a heavier shooting to melee unit ratio shift to deal with stuff like fliers, which isn't what a lot of players want.

You could not outlfank and assault out of a rhino in 5th. The rhino had to move to come onto the board. You could walk on and assault, but your opponent had to be pretty close to the side for you to do that.

Just being able to show up from reserves with an assault unit limits your opponent's deployment. There's a reason why people took Wolf Scouts all the time in 5th and don't in 6th.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

On the other hand, you can now assault much farther out of an Assault Vehicle.

What a lot of people forget: We didn't lose 6" of movement with the change to the disembarking rules, we lost 2" of movement with the change to the disembarking rules and gained a potential 6" of movement.

Now you can move a transport 6", then move out of it 6", then assault 2d6". Before, it was move a transport 12", move out of it 2" then assault d6". Why do I say d6"? Because most of the time the thing you're assaulting will be in cover and you'll be rolling for Difficult Terrain.

Call me crazy, but I'd rather trade the extra range potential for reliability. Because when that turns up and you stand around there looking foolish, it's kinda annoying.

The random charge distance thingie is the melee equivalent of shooty units having to test for (5th ed) Nightfighting every time they want to shoot (hey, there's a lot of smoke and fire covering the sight on a battlefield...).

So you get lucky to roll nightfight with Dark Eldar, are happy that your "superior" tactics are close to winning you the game at the end of turn 2. But your opponents reserves come and extend the game from near annihilation and he wins in turn five? Sounds like fun, sorry your "superior" tactics can't account for your opponent building and playing his army to counter whatever is thrown at him. Can't say how many times I've seen naked Necron warriors blast flyers right out of the air. I've played since RT too, thankfully, things change. I for one love flyers even when I'm not using them. Not sure how we got through all those earlier editions where armies are descending from space to a planets surface, but somehow forget to bring something without wheels to get them around.

 dracpanzer wrote:
So you get lucky to roll nightfight with Dark Eldar, are happy that your "superior" tactics are close to winning you the game at the end of turn 2. But your opponents reserves come and extend the game from near annihilation and he wins in turn five? Sounds like fun, sorry your "superior" tactics can't account for your opponent building and playing his army to counter whatever is thrown at him. Can't say how many times I've seen naked Necron warriors blast flyers right out of the air. I've played since RT too, thankfully, things change. I for one love flyers even when I'm not using them. Not sure how we got through all those earlier editions where armies are descending from space to a planets surface, but somehow forget to bring something without wheels to get them around.

nightfight first turn+ nightshields+ careful set up equates to a large portion of trolling, if played right it can devastate an opposing force sufficiently to ensure thay have an uphill struggle. I did this to guard once then 3 vendettas came on turn 2 and turned the game around, never again...

Flyers can dominate especially when you bring them on in the right position to strike, in a multiplayer game the weekend just gone my GK stormravens and my SW stormeagle turned up and screwed over a SM tank charge, 3 vindicators and a LR all turned to scrap, plus a dreadnought got smoked as well then theirs turned up (including 2 flamer drakes that really did bugger all, ) we shot at each other and eventually all the flyers were dead, though mine killed the most

40k has its ups and downs but games like the one mentioned above always warm the heart, transports are still highly useful (even if that means a GK strike squad or two sit in them for the whole game spraying psycannon shots out of the hatch ) assaults are now far more effective after the firepower has done its job, and you need to remove a squad from an objective asap- providing you have a unit that can do the job.

40k is better than it was, we've had far more laughs so far that in any other edition, though GW prices are hitting the area that ever so slightly reaks of 'too expensive' for those of us who have large collections, though partly we are edition proof

I'm a total newcomer to Wh40k but I really enjoy 6th ed and the fliers (I did play 15ish years ago with Chaos Space Marines whichever that edition was but is beside the point).

The game I played last night was why I'm really enjoying flyers. I played Orks (with a Dakajet) vs Dark Eldar (With Aegis line with quad and the DE Flyer). His flyer turned up top of turn two and bombed the hell out of my Ork boyz but thanks to my Big Mek quite a few survived. Then bottom of turn two my Ork flyer turned up and the quad gun opened fire and my Ork pilot (who is being enshrined my hall of fame) made four jink saves!! He then opened up his three twin linked shooter and anhilated a unit of 10 scourges (we were playing that mission where fast attack is extra VPs). His flyer then pivoted and started shooting at my Flyer and his quad gun opened up. Another 4 jink saves later and my flyer was down a hull point and a set of twin-linked shootas. The Ork flyer then opened up another fast attack choice and whitled them down before being shot down in th fourth turn and nearly crashing into a unit of warriors. Even in death he was trying to win me the game!!

I've also had a game where I had a dogfight with a valkyrie (ended badly) and when a strafuing run wiped the floor with imprial guard before a unit a heavy bolters shot him down.

I think the superiority of flyers is spot on. Think of the real world. Wasn't it stated that the allies would never have attempted the D-Day landings if they hadn't already won superiority of the skies? And the Nazis nearly turned the tide of the war when they unleashed their (superior) jet fighters. Air superiority has won all wars since the plane graced the field of battle.

 Cortez667 wrote:


One last point: The army that went UNDEAFETED at BAO 2013 did not contain a single flyer. And there were a metric TON of 2-3 dragon CSM lists there.

Does anyone have a link to these results, I was wondering how it went.

2nd- 3rd Edition was my golden age in 40k. no comment on fliers.