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I've been playing 40k for some 25 years now.

More recently, in 4th and 5th I've enjoyed really good success in the game, both at tournaments and for fun on the tabletop.

With 6th, and it's random charge range, character challenges, flyer nonsense, and other generally stupid rules that they just add in, along with the insane prices (50+ bucks for a codex?)
I've taken a bit of a hiatus....

Been playing Bloodbowl, X-Wing, ACTA: Star Fleet, and the random board game....and lots more X-Wing. I've really been enjoying it too.

However, 40k has been a really big part of my life for the past couple of decades. I'm really disappointed in the direction it has taken....and I miss it.


After my hiatus, today I decided to have my 3rd, 4th, and 6th games of the new 6th edition at a local RTT.

Now, keep in mind...I'm no newb. I know how to build a list, and I know how to HAVE FUN in this game...at least past editions. I built a well rounded Dark Eldar army and took it to a local tournament. I've played my DE for some time and know how to get good results with them...especially against the locals that frequently come up wanting against the armies and tactics that I deploy on the tabletop...DESPITE taking armies from the DE codex which is basically considered inferior in 6th.


Anyway, the first game....my warlord got nightfight...and i got the first shot against a Grey Knight list. I effectivelly blew him off the table in two turns while taking minimal losses. Good target selection and a fair balance of dice going my way.....

....then the Stormravens showed up.

Turn 2 I had my opponent on the ropes....and obvious win, then the two flyers show up loaded and get to do whatever they want. My Aegis defense gun and single Ravenwing Fighter (balanced DE list) not withstanding.

My army was entirely blown off the table by turn 5.

Nonsense.

I don't think, in all my many years of miniature wargaming that I've ever suffered a defeat as ridiculous as this game. The simple FACT of competetive wargameing in 40k (if there is such a thing) is that you MUST max your fliers (or spend the $ on the newest and shiniest) if you're going to have a chance. One or two deterrents to fliers is simply not enough to get you the game.

SPEND YOUR MONEY ON EXPENSIVE MODELS!

Having a horrendous loss in my first game...I played one of the local sacrificial lambs...who also employed three fliers. (the little marine things...I forget the name) The game turned up a victory for me...but was boring. A dance of flyers and ridiculous handfulls of dice that resulted in little enjoyment for either opponent. My opponent was confounded by my Archon's shadow feild....and extremely frustrated by the fact that I wouldnt roll a 1. THAT is the sort of opponent this was. We all know that Shadowfeilds are nothing to TRULY be envied. Luck yes...sometimes...but when they fail...they frequently fail early. I just had a lucky game. However, even against that calibre of player...the game was basically mutual destruction with me edging out the win in "The Emperor's Will"

Again, flyers.

After taking a short Hiatus, and playing other games exclusively for the last several months....yes...40k is crap. What the hell has happened to our game??? What the frack sort of fluff is it where every 2000pt force that wins sports 3+ fliers? I must've missed that portion in the horus heresy novels. Why do the same choices keep coming up in all armies because they are the competetive ones? Why is it that a well run balanced force is fighting an uphill battle against "competetive" lists nowadays.

HAVE YOU SEEN AN ULTRA COMPETITIVE CHAOS LIST W/O ANY DRAGONS?......(didnt think so...)

Some of you may disagree and think that I just need to learn 6th, but I tell you....there was a time where ALL armies were valid in this game. Where an inferior army...well run...could still come out on top of a vastly superior competetive force if run masterfully. This just isn't the case anymore....and that is my problem with 40k now.

GW...in their infinite wisdom and quest for your money, has plugged a system into this game where you MUST buy these flyers. Or MUST play this newest codex IMHO. It's just not fun anymore....setting up $1200 worth of models on the table to get blasted off by your opponents GW aided BS.

If you play X-Wing (a ridiculously simple system)....each player plays 100 pts. And it's almost a game of pure skill, there is some advantage that can be gained out of Squadron building. Generally....the best man wins. It's tactical, and realistic results happen. Spending 30 Bucks on a falcon or Firespray doest give you an uneven advantage over your opponent that is still fielding his BALANCED swarm of 6 Ties/Vader/characters. This is an example of a GOOD game. A BALANCED game. A game that is worth your money and DOES NOT break the bank.

You all know who the better gamers are in your store....you do....you know you do.....

When you feel the Uphill battle because you didnt max out your fighters against an inferior player that did....you'll know what I'm talking about. Want to be competetive? Buy more fliers...or just get used to losing. THAT is 40k today.

I won't give up....I'll keep playing, I'm going to Nova...but I'm VERY disappointed in 6th edition. I think it is quite probably the WORST and most UNBALANCED game that I've played in my 3 decades or so of wargaming. Combine that with the overpriced models, and I can tell you that the ONLY reason that I'm still playing this crap is the fact that I've got longtime friends that I don't want to lose track of and want to meet up with at the tournament scene as I have since the early 90's.

I hate that 40k is no longer the better miniature game out there. It really isnt . With all the supposed improvements that we should have in this game, it's no better (and argueably worse) than 2nd edition. 2nd to 3rd the big thing was how the game was sped up....now....it's VASTLY slowed down with all the wound allocation nonsense and the HANDFULLS of dice you roll for everything. Handfulls of dice do not equal exiting!

Play some other games and find out....40k is crap. The Golden Age of 40k is over. 3rd, 4th, and yes....even 5th. I miss you so.

I don't mid up to 3 flyers. Gets silly when you see 6 or more. Stuff that messes up their reserves coming in can be really big now. I won my last tournament b/c of that. I rolled Warlord trait of -1 to his reserve rolls and he rolled Warlord and his unit get outflank. His Warlord in a landraider w/ a squad of TH/SS Termies never showed. I tabled him turn 3 and didn't lose a single nid. Wasn't pretty.

The 2 Fliers alone are 400 plus pts not to mention the squads he had in them. Of course he lost the 1st couple of turns at least a 3rd of his army wasn't on the field.

I find flyers to be huge point sink and if you have a couple of twin linked anti armor weapons that can really go far. Even with my Nids who have a lack of anti flying I have been able to deal w/ multiple flyers. 6 Hive Guard w/ a Tyrant w/ old adversary and flyers don't last long. I don't what options you might have tho.

DE don't have twin linked weapons....

But it just goes back to my point that in past editions ALL player chosen armies were valid in this game and victories should have more basis on player skill rather than who has more fliers.

I would agree with you to an extent. It's true that flyers absolutely can and do break the game when taken in numbers. However, it's my opinion that 6th edition is one of the better editions of the game, in terms of intuitiveness and fun. I think the main problem you're facing is that you were bring a "balanced" list to a tournament. Bringing a list without redundancies and yes, flyers, (or at least flyer defense) is not going to win you tournaments. It's unfortunate for people who have invested lots of money into the game, but you do need to buy at least something to help you against flyers, whether it be another flyer (or two) or an aegis defense line (which you can usually scratch build for relatively cheap) to defend against them. It's akin to someone who built all their models with heavy bolters or even plasma guns needing to upgrade their force to deal with some anti-tank.

If the Grey Knights were as on the ropes as you claim, there's no reason a pair of stormravens (far from the most broken of all flyers) should have lost you the game. More likely there were paladins or teminators or something inside that helped with that. You might have to adjust your lists and your tactics a bit to help deal with flyers and the difficulties they can cause for an army.

Some of you may disagree and think that I just need to learn 6th, but I tell you....there was a time where ALL armies were valid in this game. Where an inferior army...well run...could still come out on top of a vastly superior competetive force if run masterfully. This just isn't the case anymore....and that is my problem with 40k now.

This isn't necesarily as true as you may think. Good players can still beat more optimized lists, and do it all the tme. Some people do this by playing the objective, some people do it through maneuverability, but there are people who can and do pull wins against "better" armies.

Of course maybe your mistake was trying to play the game competetively at all. It's pretty well accepted that 40k is not a good game for competetive play. Try playing it as it was meant to be - a beer and pretzels game amongst friends. you'll probably enjoy it more.

He said 2 Flyers - so 2 Ravens + troops inside and prob their HQ too. 1/3 or more of the opp. force.




Edit: just thinking it over I'll bet that was half of the GKs force.

 Mythra wrote:
He said 2 Flyers - so 2 Ravens + troops inside and prob their HQ too. 1/3 or more of the opp. force.

Yes, I know. I was just pointing out that he still had most of his army left. A couple of squads plus HQ and flyers (particularily Stormravens) shouldn't have given him that much trouble. He still had effectively 2/3 or more of his army left (judging from his post) to deal with that 1/3. Maybe he underestimated his opponant, maybe the dice turned against him. Maybe the GK player was as good, or better than him. I can't say, I wasn't there. In any case, two flyers in what sounds to me like a 2000 point game is hardly game breaking.

It really feels like you came on here tonight to complain.... which is actually valid. You've devoted a significant part of your life to GW, as have I. I too recall the joy when 3rd edition came out.

But GW is all about the money now. Its been that way for sometime. So I don't feel its valid when someone (Ferrum_Sanguinis) makes the comment that he/she did, and you take offense.

I gotta say, it just seems like your venting. As an aside, I built my DE near the end of 5th, and I was kicking everyones booty. I even placed at a fairly big tournament in L.A. In early 6th. But then flyers became THE NORM. And almost every game has been:

1) I'm clearly winning from turn 1. My army and the way I use it is superior.
2) Their flyers come on the board.
3) Suddenly I'm loosing.

Yes, the money we put into our armies is suddenly (seemingly) wasted. But be proud that the only way those other players can beat you is to take a clearly broken unit type. Give me comfort while I'm pulling off sail boats left and right.

One last point: The army that went UNDEAFETED at BAO 2013 did not contain a single flyer. And there were a metric TON of 2-3 dragon CSM lists there.

The game has changed, you just need to change with it.

 Blue Falcon wrote:
DE don't have twin linked weapons....

But it just goes back to my point that in past editions ALL player chosen armies were valid in this game and victories should have more basis on player skill rather than who has more fliers.

Tyranids have only Flying Monstrous Creatures, only one of which can carry something that can hurt AV12 fliers, which also happens to be a super expensive HQ which will end up being their Warlord. They can't take Aegis Defense Lines, and have no options anywhere for Skyfire. Tyranid players are loving 6th edition.

Find a way that works for you to take on fliers. But don't expect that your existing army will take them on without problems, unless you were lucky enough to build an army that segues into anti flyer by default (ie lots of twin linked ranged anti tank). It's a new edition, with some new mechanics and units and counters to said units, most of which are trickling in in GW's (to their credit, much increased) release schedule.

Well put gimble to the beer and pretzels comment. The tournament scene in my area is ran by a bunch of elitist theatre majors. It really left a bad taste in my mouth for the game. After a 6 month break my friends put together a campaign and it was just us having pizza and beer clashing plastic with plastic. My faith was restored and im gaming regularly again. I think the biggest part of it is the people you play with imo. However 3 helldrakes is broke as hell.

"However 3 helldrakes is broke as hell."

Put your guys in CHEAP transports and watch their 170 point price tag get wasted.

 Cortez667 wrote:
"However 3 helldrakes is broke as hell."

Put your guys in CHEAP transports and watch their 170 point price tag get wasted.

Unless he's smart and Vector Strikes the transport first and pops it, then uses the almighty baleflamer.

But then you've made him/her use every one of the points he/she paid for its abilities to the fullest; thus, making it balanced. Suddenly its not so scary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Interesting point: do smoke launchers work against vector strike?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, your assuming your opponent is "smart". If he/she is rocking 2-3 draqons, your opponent is probably fairly unimaginative, and thus, probably not smart

I don't play competitively, but even in casual environments, fliers annoy me.

Simply put, they are poorly designed, and stand apart from the rest of the game as being decisively powerful, and boring to use.

That being said, 6th ed games with minimal or no fliers (1 per side or none) is actually a lot of fun, I enjoy it far more than I enjoyed 5th. There's some gripes, of course; warlord traits being random and wildly different in utility, CSM cult troops aren't as powerful as I feel they should be, but all in all, it's a fun edition, if you can avoid flierspam.

Flierspam can even be fun, as a one off, but like anything else, when all you see is flier wave after flier wave, the game becomes boring. It's the prime "power-game" tactic, and makes me long for draigowing.

I totally get your frustration over fliers, I share them, as do many others. I'm primarily a Guard player, we've got arguably the best fliers in the game, but I don't even field my vendetta anymore unless I know I'm going up against a flier wing, because they're just an un-interesting mechanic which cheapens an otherwise fun game.

I agree with your point. The game changed, the balance changed, the mechanics change, and it's hard on players who have been collecting their armies for a long time.

I remember the change from 3rd to 4th (a little less as that's the year I started), and the change from 4th to 5th. Both times I remember having to rip arms off models to change their weapons, or buying and rushing to finish new models to bring up the competitive edge of my army. But to be honest it was part of the fun.

I loved 5th edition. I could create a whole post about all the things I enjoyed about/playing it. That being said, I'm happy to see the change in the meta game, I find it breathes new life into my army. If it was just a tightened up version of 5th (which I've heard many people claim they would have preferred), there would not have been enough change to keep things interesting.

I for one am seeing a new trend towards balancing codex with the new 6th ed ones (DA, CSM, and CD), compared to the power creep codex we were seeing in the tail end of 5th (GK and necrons). But only time will tell if this trend holds.

The flyer spam kinda reminds me of the skimmer spam of 4th, and the msu and vehicle spam of 5th. Yes they were different, but they forced people to change their tactics. At first it was frustrating, "Oh my god I NEED so much anti tank to be able to compete now!", but once you adjusted your tactics, it was fun again. Now I magnetize EVERYTHING to save myself the hassle (and money) later on.

I understand where you're coming from, and I agree with your point. I'll avoid giving you the same old "learn/play more 6th" line that people like to throw out there. For me, I have had times where I didn't like where the hobby was going and thought about quitting/taking a break. I tried a few other game systems, but they just didn't do it for me, and I always find my way back to good old 40k.

In the end there are only three real options I can see for you. First, change your list, however radically you may need, to fit with the current meta. Second, take a break, enjoy your other games, and see if you like how 7th ed looks when it comes out. Finally, third, is leave the hobby, and be content to throw away the time and money you invested in the hobby.

It sucks you don't enjoy 6th, and I empathize with you. I hope you enjoy whatever choice you make, it would be a shame to give up on all your hard work with your army.

I think the main problem was how fast it came about, with only the flier white dwarf as the first clue and only clue. Each edition has an optimal unit type (infantry, vehicles, and now fliers). Unfortunately, you went for a tournament first, where people will almost indefinably play to win (although that depends, if its just regulars then maybe not), so everyone is likely to have optimized lists that include flyers. You just need to (unfortunately) buy anti flier units for tournies.

What about just ignoring the flyers? They can only do so much in a single game.

 Blue Falcon wrote:
Some of you may disagree and think that I just need to learn 6th, but I tell you....there was a time where ALL armies were valid in this game. Where an inferior army...well run...could still come out on top of a vastly superior competetive force if run masterfully. This just isn't the case anymore....and that is my problem with 40k now.

I've been playing for quite a while (although not as long as you) and I think the time when all armies are valid is now. Codexes change, and editions change, which occasionally bring about changes in the way we play the game, which can result in some startling games. I'm not trying to be mean amigo, but it sounds like you had an easy game with a flyer list, underestimated them, and then got blindsided by one at a tournament. I'm sorry that you feel like Games Workshop has moved away from the game you love, but I think the tactical strategy wargame is still there, it's just evolved a bit. I think they've done a great job of creating a well balanced game, and constantly working to expand it as well as refine the kinks in their rules.

It always makes me sad to lose veterans of the game, but if you feel the game isn't for you anymore, I would recommend moving on. I've had some terrible experiences with sticking it out simply because of all the years you've put in, and it only leads to heartache. I really hope you can come around to the current face of the game, but if you can't, I wish you good luck in the future, and I hope you find a game that makes you happier.

The golden age of 40k ended in 1998 with the release of 3rd ed. Since then we have had a succession of 'streamlined', dumbed down variations of the same flawed ruleset which has become increasingly based around selling more miniatures (just look at the steadily reducing points values)

During this time GW has also developed a counterproductive corporate culture that values short term gains and raking in as much cash as possible over quality and long term stability.

GW's true golden age was the early-mid 90's where it produced some of its best and most varied rulesets (Necromunda, BFG et al).

TLDR GW's golden age is long past and while 40k is now an OK game it is no longer a great one.

Speak for yourself. 40k's golden age for me was 3rd edition. I played the most and had the most fun with the game during those years, particularly with some of the stuff they put out through White Dwarf like the vehicle design rules.

Also, I don't know what making Necromunda, Warhammer Quest, Epic Armageddon, etc have to do with 40k's golden age, since they're different games.

Unless you're trying to derail this into a GW golden age thread, which is quite different.

 -Loki- wrote:
Speak for yourself.
Do you mean to say that I can speak for other people?

Also, I don't know what making Necromunda, Warhammer Quest, Epic Armageddon, etc have to do with 40k's golden age
That must be why I specified GW then. 40Ks and GWs golden age coincided.

I really dont enjoy the addition of flyers, mostly becuase I am tight and dont want to spend money on them but also I just dont like the way it changes the game aesthetic.

Much prefer ground troops/vehicles pounding it out. Plenty of my friends agree tho so its no problem getting games with flier-less lists.

GL 2 you hope you find some similar people to play with.

I would also agree to no flyers games. That sounds cool more like 5th ed but w/ better 6th ed rules.

Yea 3rd edition was exciting, rhino rush, jump out, shoot all your stuff, assault something different, consolidate into another unit, wash and repeat.

That was alot of fun for marine players....

Really, learn to play 6th edition, it involves flyers, and flyer defense, it ignore them.

De have decent flyers, buy some. I mean honestly you didn't expect your 3rd de army to be viable forever did you?

What hobby can you make an investment 15 years ago in, and expect it to be a one time cost??

I mean i guess if you were serious about candy land, that would be a one time investment.

Blood bowl, x wing, star fleet, and random board games cost money, money you could have spent on flyers, to continue enjoying something you have spent 3 decades playing...

Not telling you how to spend your money, but you choose not to buy flyers, then come here and complain about how flyers break40k....

 Blue Falcon wrote:
DE don't have twin linked weapons....

But it just goes back to my point that in past editions ALL player chosen armies were valid in this game and victories should have more basis on player skill rather than who has more fliers.

Er nooooo. Past edition were less balanced. There were less random elements but this 'golden age' where everything seemed to exist in perfect harmony simply didn't exist.

 Palindrome wrote:
Also, I don't know what making Necromunda, Warhammer Quest, Epic Armageddon, etc have to do with 40k's golden age
That must be why I specified GW then. 40Ks and GWs golden age coincided.

Flyer and FMC aren't the problem for me with 6ed.

I'm New, so maybe i look at things differently but i clearly see one problem.

Look at SW, DE or others and you see a that Problem. No real Anti-Flyer Options!

Its like GW put Flyers ingame and said finished, now everyone that hasn't flyer need BB or AoC.

Flyers/FMC and Anti-Flyer Options are a halfbaked Idea with the Part of real Anti-Flyer Weaponary missing

 -Loki- wrote:

Funny, because the thread isn't about GW's golden age. It's kind of right there in the title.
.

As the two coincide and as the reasons for the decline are the same for both its eminently relevent. Are you always this contrary?

 Blue Falcon wrote:
I

Some of you may disagree and think that I just need to learn 6th, but I tell you....there was a time where ALL armies were valid in this game. Where an inferior army...well run...could still come out on top of a vastly superior competetive force if run masterfully. This just isn't the case anymore....and that is my problem with 40k now.

up to this point, i was willing to listen.

But... no. Just... no.

Please, drop the rose tinted spectacles and be objective. I've played since third, and there was never a time when "all armies were valid in a game".

Remember third? armies either boiled down to "rhino rush", or "shoot the rhino rush" and heaven help you if you tried an alternative. as to well run inferior armies winning. No. Do you remember craftworld eldar? saimhann with their CTM shenanigans? Unlimited squad sized ulthwe seer councils? the dreaded alaitoc disruption table? cheap h3 starcannon-on-everything spamming eldar that could blast any power armour off the board in two turns? How about the third ed. blood angels. take 2 Death company chaplain, and for 100oddpts each, you generate up to 12 death co. marines on top of whatever you roll. then there was their "weakness" of blood rage, which was jokingly referred to as "on a 1, i go faster!". third edition had utterly hopeless balance, and a huge swing towards cc. again, there were a handful of viable codices, with a handful of truly viable builds.

How about fourth? remember all the old "rhino rush" armies from third? yeah, GW decided to make transports deathtraps in this edition. So unless you were a skimmer or a pillboxtank, no one took vehicles. marines were dominated by 6man las/plas squads camping in their deployment zone.and spamming assault cannons on everything that could take them. there were probably threads at the daen of fourth where third ed veterans were bemoaning the state of the game and how their previously valid rhino rush armies were so utterly hosed. *shrug*. then there was 4th ed sweeping advance. hit a flank and roll up. unstoppably. again, this edition of the game was dominated by imbalance. specifically in the form of the old chaos codex. talk to a fourth ed vet about iron warriors. or slanneshi space marines and watch them turn into a mewling pile of jelly. iron warriors consistenlty dominated everything. IG? weak. tau? outside of the "spam your hammerheads, hide your kroot, and abuse both skimmers moving fast, and IC status on your suits", they had nothing. One reasonable build. eldar were like tau but pulled out ridicullous shenanigans with their holofield falcons. again, at top levels of play, you never saw the underdogs win. iron warriors would grind them to dust. so yeah, there were only a handful of viable codices, with only a handful of viable builds. (90% of tau lists for example were based around 3X hammerheads, 2X IC crisis suits, 2X FW teams in fishes and maybe some kroot. add a small amount of flavour)

How about fifth? Talk to tau players. the whole damned army was basically nerfed. all those "spam assault cannon and 6man las/plas marine armies" that played infantry hammer? yeah, if they wanted to be competitive, they had to go out and buy themselves rhinos for everything. the game turned into mech-hammer. again, playable armies underwent a shift with the new edition. and there were folks on the forum bemoaning the state of the game, and how their previously top tier armies had been nerfed and how in order to be competitive they'd have to go out and buy oodles of new shiny. tau, for example went from having one reasonably good build to being severely underpowered. fifth saw the rise of (initially) nob biker spam, and later space wolves, imperial guard and grey knights. and we all know how folks here regard these armies and their spammy builds. interestingly with space wolves, they were my army in third, and were reasonably good. fourth saw them shredded as an army outside of a few limited builds (6man las/plas was out, and spamming assault cannons was tricky and expensive) to all of a sudden going top tier in fifth. again. weaker armies got left behind, and weaker builds within the codices also. IG were dominated by vendetta spam. still are, presumably. try taking an ogryn corps IG army and say by playing it masterfully you can win against a top tier army. you could... assuming you roll nothing but sixes and he rolls nothing but ones. but realistically? No. there were tiers. Some armies dominated. some didnt.


So what does this mean with regard to your post?

It means you've had your eyes opened. you are indignant because you've seen this for the very first time. its new to you, and quite shocking, it seems. and bloody hell, but you're angry about it. talk to the vets. we've all been here before. we've seen it. we've moaned about it four editions ago. we grin slyly when we see the next generation doing the same thing, as though its something new (and to them, to be fair, it is). but it was the same in our day. it will be the same when you are a grumpy old wargaming grognard and 40k is going into its 11th edition - check a 40k forum and you'll be seeing the same moaning, venting and whining. and you can laugh then.

So yeah. wake up, and smell the coffee. OK. you've done that. So drink the coffee, and think about it. no point being angry. you've seen the state of things. you've seen GW marketting stragety (buy fliers!!!). Now what do you do? Well, you buy fliers if you want to be competitive in sixth. and laugh when they get nerfed in seventh. otherwise you dont, and you lose at tournaments. so then dont go to tournaments. get some like minded buddies and house rule it so "no fliers" is how you roll. Failing that, take a break from 40k. try other games. give warmachine/hordes or infinity a roll.

 Blue Falcon wrote:
HAVE YOU SEEN AN ULTRA COMPETITIVE CHAOS LIST W/O ANY DRAGONS?......(didnt think so...)

Yes -- quite a few of them. Dark Eldar won Templecon. Daemons won Bay Area Open.

 Blue Falcon wrote:
Some of you may disagree and think that I just need to learn 6th, but I tell you....there was a time where ALL armies were valid in this game. Where an inferior army...well run...could still come out on top of a vastly superior competetive force if run masterfully. This just isn't the case anymore....and that is my problem with 40k now.

I think your looking back with rose colored glasses. There has always been the 'hot army' and the 'garbage army'.

I'm trying to figure out the purpose of going to a forum and venting about why your going to want to quit. You want one of two goals
- You want others to quit as well
- You want others to convince you not to quit
If your goal is the second one, then you can find reasons why to play 40k, and suggestions on how to play. The game has changed. It is, however, still a fun game.

 Blue Falcon wrote:
IThe simple FACT of competetive wargameing in 40k (if there is such a thing) is that you MUST max your fliers (or spend the $ on the newest and shiniest) if you're going to have a chance. One or two deterrents to fliers is simply not enough to get you the game.

 Blue Falcon wrote:
My opponent was confounded by my Archon's shadow feild....and extremely frustrated by the fact that I wouldnt roll a 1. THAT is the sort of opponent this was. We all know that Shadowfeilds are nothing to TRULY be envied. Luck yes...sometimes...but when they fail...they frequently fail early. I just had a lucky game.

Ironically, you sound a lot like your round 2 opponent. Like Shadowfields, Flyers are quite luck-dependent. Some games they can do major damage, and some games they don't come on until turn 4, get shot down by quad-guns when they come in, get Velocity Locked by lucky shots and have to fly off the board, etc.