Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

MVBrandt wrote:
I feel a need to continue to post that this is a subject already much discussed and decided upon, by the governing body and membership of the ETC. There will not ever be a 2nd US Team.

it is one of those subjects you just let die Brandt. Anymore I think the dead horse will be beat even more.

Darkwynn wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:
I feel a need to continue to post that this is a subject already much discussed and decided upon, by the governing body and membership of the ETC. There will not ever be a 2nd US Team.

it is one of those subjects you just let die Brandt. Anymore I think the dead horse will be beat even more.

lol do you really think that will happen?

Actually I am always amazed that people think this is a common format in Europe. Its not. With a few exceptions like the Home Nations tournament and the French who actually have their teams compete in a separate tournament and the winning team go to the ETC. We could actually have a " practice tournament" also if the ATC moved away from the ETC date. But than it would conflict with some other majors like Wargames or Adept. Either way the majority of europe teams are not practicing this format but they do have more time in playing it over the years.

Congratulations on taking the trip fellas and doing well.



As I've said in previous ETC threads, the real win is--from what I've seen (and the few ETC members I've talked to)--I'm sure they showed outstanding sportsmanship while playing--which is more important to me (Speaking from a nationalist gamer angle, which is very strange) than how they rolled dice/decided what to kill.

Good job and have a safe flight home.

A great point! While I want our team to kick butt and take names, it's at least equally important they conduct themselves as good representatives of our gaming communities and international ambassadors. All of the guys on the team whom I've met and know are great in that department as well.

Congrats on the solid performance, guys, and the improvement on last year. I hope to qualify at some point and make the trip.

Congrats to the US ETC team - Good showing after all the travel and just the stress of being around the world in a strange country. Jobz a Gud Un!

Also same for the US guys in the singles - great showing.

As a general comment on all the remarks about how "Scotland is not a country" and "It is easier to travel from one backwater country in Europe to another one" I just want to say that there is a lot to learn by some people posting in this thread.

The selection process in Poland was/is the following:

You take, I think, the top 5 players based on the PL league of 40k, which encompasses all the events done in the country, even store leagues to a degree. The captain/coach does not have to be among those. Then you look down the list to take the best players of the armies you need to fill the rosters for.

We don't play exclusively the ETC format here. In fact, it is quite unpopular and the majority of the average players do not care for it. Some events are organised for the team to have a wider pool of players but most of the time, they play in a closed testing group, figuring out the pairings.

Changes for ETC are coming up, on this matter as well in regards to the general rules, as this year's vote / discussion of 'em wasn't satisfying for most participants. I'd also favor allowing the US two teams, US East and US West, although I agree with others doubting there being a US West team interesting in travelling the entire way to Europe.

In regards to why America is even invited: the ETC is the biggest international Warhammer competitive tournament out there and not allowing America would be stupid. Furthermore, as we have seen, they consist of good players and the more we got of 'em, the better for all of us. On top of that, the entire US team has shown exceptional sportsmanship throughout the entire event - and you can't say that about everyone (looking at that one guy who almost flipped the table and behaved like a pouting child when faced with defeat...). I know 1-2 countries we could gladly swap out for more US teams

Should have brought 8 Tau lists with 3 Riptides if you wanted to succeed ;D

Yep, as a member of Team America (Andrew) I want to say the ETC was a blast, kudos to all the organizers for putting it on.

To the thread topic - The ETC is a totally foreign format/playstyle to what we're used to in America, and it takes some adjusting. That being said, I'm very proud of how we finished this year, we finished in 10th with our match points tied with 7-8-9 and tiebreakers pushed us to 10th (basically, we didn't win matches as big as other teams did). All in all I'd say we did pretty well and are starting to re-develop our team and our strategy after last year, and everything is moving in the right direction. We had a couple very close matches which got pushed into draws by just 1 or 2 points, which left us at 2-1-3 (w/l/d). We'll come back better next year, more practiced, more focused, and ready to represent.

I'd also like to shout out to the team for doing an awesome job playing, but most especially to Greg for being an amazing team captain, Mitch for being literally the best f'ing coach you could ever have, and Ben for coming in on 1 week notice to a list he didn't play, or have a chance to practice one bit and playing in difficult match ups the entire time. Unlike in the US it's not purely 1v1 random matches, and sometimes you get tossed under the bus into a bad match with the real "win" being gaining any points rather than winning the game, creating the right matches for the other players on the team to get the points needed for a team victory. No one should focus too heavily on the individual scores of team members for this reason, among many.

Thanks all for the support, and until next year!

Andrew is right. The ETC is all about matchups, not always the players. You want to win? Then get the matchups right.

IMO the US keeps bringing generalist lists. They do well in the singles, because they have generalist tourney lists and not enough meta lists. Some of he other top countries study the meta and build to defeat the top lists.

Example. A few years back, Darkwyns Leaf blower list was all the rage. Poland playtested the hell against that list and came up with a Tyranid Genestealers list that totally smashed leaf blower. No one saw it coming. The Polish player decimated each leaf blower matchup in the ETC.

IMO the US players just bring their tourney winning lists and play 40k. That worked ok the first year as they finished 3rd, but then Europe didn't take America so lightly and started reading American 40k blogs. They saw what we played and started playtestinig against our lists. Since then the USA has not done as well, but we still bring the same lists we win at tourneys with.

The Polish have it right. 3-5 guys can bring their top lists, but after that more top guys are not any better to the TEAM. Really good players with different armies is a better choice.

Read the European blogs, especially Eastern Europe, and learn what the top players are currently playing over there. Playtest against that. The US team doesn't need to do all the playtestinig by itself. Sub contract that out to inhouse groups who will learn the ins and outs of beating certain archetype lists. Then teach it to the guys who will go over there to play against those archetypes.

DarthDiggler wrote:
Andrew is right. The ETC is all about matchups, not always the players. You want to win? Then get the matchups right.

IMO the US keeps bringing generalist lists. They do well in the singles, because they have generalist tourney lists and not enough meta lists. Some of he other top countries study the meta and build to defeat the top lists.

Example. A few years back, Darkwyns Leaf blower list was all the rage. Poland playtested the hell against that list and came up with a Tyranid Genestealers list that totally smashed leaf blower. No one saw it coming. The Polish player decimated each leaf blower matchup in the ETC.

IMO the US players just bring their tourney winning lists and play 40k. That worked ok the first year as they finished 3rd, but then Europe didn't take America so lightly and started reading American 40k blogs. They saw what we played and started playtestinig against our lists. Since then the USA has not done as well, but we still bring the same lists we win at tourneys with.

The Polish have it right. 3-5 guys can bring their top lists, but after that more top guys are not any better to the TEAM. Really good players with different armies is a better choice.

Read the European blogs, especially Eastern Europe, and learn what the top players are currently playing over there. Playtest against that. The US team doesn't need to do all the playtestinig by itself. Sub contract that out to inhouse groups who will learn the ins and outs of beating certain archetype lists. Then teach it to the guys who will go over there to play against those archetypes.

This man needs a medal, he hit the nail on the head. Bringing a few counter armies to change up the team could help a lot. Adding something like Tyranids or Dark Eldar (both are armies that are match-up prone, but not regarded as top tier. Tyranids for example can ROFLstomp Necrons or Daemons a lot more reliably than a top-tier Tau list.)

If you look at the ATC that we just had, a lot of "bad" armies placed very high in individual because they had a bit of room to avoid bad match ups. Basically, that choice can completely change the meta, while Team America just brings stuff for the individual meta.

DarthDiggler wrote:
Andrew is right. The ETC is all about matchups, not always the players. You want to win? Then get the matchups right.

IMO the US keeps bringing generalist lists. They do well in the singles, because they have generalist tourney lists and not enough meta lists. Some of he other top countries study the meta and build to defeat the top lists.

Example. A few years back, Darkwyns Leaf blower list was all the rage. Poland playtested the hell against that list and came up with a Tyranid Genestealers list that totally smashed leaf blower. No one saw it coming. The Polish player decimated each leaf blower matchup in the ETC.

IMO the US players just bring their tourney winning lists and play 40k. That worked ok the first year as they finished 3rd, but then Europe didn't take America so lightly and started reading American 40k blogs. They saw what we played and started playtestinig against our lists. Since then the USA has not done as well, but we still bring the same lists we win at tourneys with.

The Polish have it right. 3-5 guys can bring their top lists, but after that more top guys are not any better to the TEAM. Really good players with different armies is a better choice.

Read the European blogs, especially Eastern Europe, and learn what the top players are currently playing over there. Playtest against that. The US team doesn't need to do all the playtestinig by itself. Sub contract that out to inhouse groups who will learn the ins and outs of beating certain archetype lists. Then teach it to the guys who will go over there to play against those archetypes.

Good post and much better written than my I think most Americans lean more towards singles than understanding the team game of the ETC. Although at this point I think Greg and company are pretty good at it. It is just a few of the teams have been at it a lot longer and it makes a difference. Having played in both the ATC and ETC I will say the closest we have to this format is obviously the ATC but even that is more of a shadow to the prep work done prior to the tournament by the teams.

congrats to the US players

Can someone give me a link that shows the procedure of how matchups are made.

Or any rules that are used at the ETC that are different than US GTs and RTs.

RB

@ DarthDiggler

With regards to your comment about Darkwynn's LeafBlower list against Poland, it certainly didn't get smashed and held it's own quite well. The only reason Nick lost or tied the match, from my recollection, was that he was unlucky with two or three morale checks on the last turn and fell back off objectives to swing the match in favor of Poland, otherwise I believe Nick would have won.

More to your other point in that top countries across the pond meta against top lists and look for the matchups in team play.

The nutshell is you place players "down" in alternating order. Ala, we roll off and I "lose" as captain. So, I get to pick a table to put my "first defender" down on. You then can pick any of your players and "attack" him with their list (i.e., if you placed down a jetbike seer star to defend, I might "drop" a bunch of rune priests or a double blob w/ njal or something on it).

Then, the previous attacker has to put out their first defender, and so on and so forth. The defender I believe gets to select which board to be on, the attacker of course can tailor their application to the opponent.

The last two players are "champions," since they are simply the leftover pair.

There's more intricacy to it, to the scoring, etc. (i.e., you get match points in the ETC based on the margin of TOTAL BP, and Match Points are the first score of relevance ... total BP the 2nd). Yada yada.

 jifel wrote:

This man needs a medal, he hit the nail on the head. Bringing a few counter armies to change up the team could help a lot. Adding something like Tyranids or Dark Eldar (both are armies that are match-up prone, but not regarded as top tier. Tyranids for example can ROFLstomp Necrons or Daemons a lot more reliably than a top-tier Tau list.)

Huh? Riptides are a huge problem for Necrons.

So what you end up with is Prey lists or put up lists, so a prey list might be the current screamer star against a shooty army and a put up list a average Tau list. Thats why some of the lists are different to what you normally face, they are designed to counter certain lists why the others are designed to be TAC lists.

 NotThisTime wrote:
@ DarthDiggler

With regards to your comment about Darkwynn's LeafBlower list against Poland, it certainly didn't get smashed and held it's own quite well. The only reason Nick lost or tied the match, from my recollection, was that he was unlucky with two or three morale checks on the last turn and fell back off objectives to swing the match in favor of Poland, otherwise I believe Nick would have won.

More to your other point in that top countries across the pond meta against top lists and look for the matchups in team play.

Here is what Martel, the originator of the bug anti leaf blower list said about its performance. I also included his playtesting notes because it gives you an idea of how Poland prepares for the EtC.

ETC results:
1 mission - Orcs, hordes of Orcs - Dawn of War, 5 objectives. Orc Player hide everything in first turn reserves, and i put my 40 genestealers on his table edge. He can't arrive from reserves. He lost. 20:0
2 mission - IG, mech - Pitched Battle, 2 objectives, i go first and win 18:2 ( i was able to hide 1 unit of hive guards)
3 mission - IG, mech - Spearhead, annihilation - i go first and win 15:5, hard battle, he was really incredible. ( i couldn't hide even 1 hive guard unit)
4 mission - IG, mech - Dawn of War, 2 objectives - i go first and win 19:1, because i made an error in writing results, should be 20:0 ( i didn't try hive guards)
5 mission - IG, leafblower - Darkwynn had first turn (and what's more important - i don't have even 1 terrain to hide my Tervigons), so i started in reserves 15:5 ( i could hide my hive guards)
6 mission - SW, 13 thunder cavalry and lord, 2 priests with jaws + 3 times grey knights with rhinos and 3 wolfguards and drop pod, SW started the game and i win 18:2 even after losing Tervigon in first turn (jaws of course)

Before the ETC i tested this army against IG something like 10 times. I alwyas go as second and i win all except:
dawn of war, i go as second - if the game would end in turn 5 or 6 then it would be a draw, if in 7 my win
spearhead, 5 objectives - if the game would end in turn 5-6 I would win, if in the 7 i would lost (made a stupid mistake)

i also fight against same(like 10) BA/SW mechs and those battles were easier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MarkyMark wrote:
So what you end up with is Prey lists or put up lists, so a prey list might be the current screamer star against a shooty army and a put up list a average Tau list. Thats why some of the lists are different to what you normally face, they are designed to counter certain lists why the others are designed to be TAC lists.

That's right. The stated purpose of the ETC is to find the country with the best players in the world right? Well With the amount of list rigging going on in the team event I don't think you can ever accomplish that. To see which country has the best players in the world you need to have a massive singles event with multiple players from each country participating. Nobody can play someone rom their own country and you add up the total scores of each countries players together. That will tell you which country has the best players.

But the ETC format isn't designed to see who is the best 40k player. Just the best grouping in this type of format. That's fine. I like it personally and it helps mix things up from the normal tourney. There are already plenty of large singles events around, though they tend to fill up to fast.

I would hope the ETC community take the singles event more seriously and bring a specific army for that event, but I'm afraid a lot of ayers don't take it as seriously as the team event. I know the logistics of doing that a re prohibitive to most. I understand.

It would be like us saying the best players in 40k are the ones who win the Adepticon Team event instead of the singles event

Not this time is correct. Also, we got blind sided by the ETC first year FAQ that you could checkerboard against Barrage weapons and still get cover saves (this rule was not in the FAQ at the time, it was just assume that is how you played there). I failed a morale check on two squads that cost me three objectives.

The game was tough no doubt about it and I did get caught by surprise but mainly due to the FAQ ruling and the tactic he employed with the genestealers. It was a smart play by their part but I wouldn't call it me getting smashed. He did smash majority of the IG players though. That was my only lost as the first team member to get thrown out every round to chew glass. I don't think the score was that low either. The person who did the best that year against Poland I think was Mike though.

I wonder how many people remember checkerboarding ...

MVBrandt wrote:
I wonder how many people remember checkerboarding ...

After playing Thomas and seeing so many orks in my life. I think its burned in my mind.

 Alkasyn wrote:
As a general comment on all the remarks about how "Scotland is not a country"

#1. As far as the USA is concerned Scotland is not a country. Europeans might think of them more as a country because they traditionally operate in sports as one, but to the US they are part of the country of the United Kingdom.

 Alkasyn wrote:
"It is easier to travel from one backwater country in Europe to another one" I just want to say that there is a lot to learn by some people posting in this thread.

#2. You kind of lumped two of my comments together. They were:

 Blackmoor wrote:
Not only will the ETC never allow it, but you will never be able to get the16 of the best 40k gamers in the US to travel to the backwaters of Europe just for a tournament.

The ETC was held in Novi Sad Serbia. To give some perspective, this city has the population of Laredo Texas and the closest airport to it is in Belgrade 80km away. This is not a major city, and lacks any reason to go to it other than the ETC. I also hear that they try to keep the ETC near Eastern Europe because travel for them is harder and more expensive than for the Western Europeans, and the reason that the ETC will not be held in England.

 Blackmoor wrote:
Those countries have a lot easier time knowing who their best players are (since they are all at the same tournaments), but also the travel to the ETC is not an issue so they can have them all go.

The distances from European counties to each other are quite small compared to travel in the US. Even London to Belgrade is only 1049 miles which is shorter than the distance from New York to Miami.

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:
As a general comment on all the remarks about how "Scotland is not a country"

#1. As far as the USA is concerned Scotland is not a country. Europeans might think of them more as a country because they traditionally operate in sports as one, but to the US they are part of the country of the United Kingdom.

 Alkasyn wrote:
"It is easier to travel from one backwater country in Europe to another one" I just want to say that there is a lot to learn by some people posting in this thread.

#2. You kind of lumped two of my comments together. They were:

 Blackmoor wrote:
Not only will the ETC never allow it, but you will never be able to get the16 of the best 40k gamers in the US to travel to the backwaters of Europe just for a tournament.

The ETC was held in Novi Sad Serbia. To give some perspective, this city has the population of Laredo Texas and the closest airport to it is in Belgrade 80km away. This is not a major city, and lacks any reason to go to it other than the ETC. I also hear that they try to keep the ETC near Eastern Europe because travel for them is harder and more expensive than for the Western Europeans, and the reason that the ETC will not be held in England.

 Blackmoor wrote:
Those countries have a lot easier time knowing who their best players are (since they are all at the same tournaments), but also the travel to the ETC is not an issue so they can have them all go.

The distances from European counties to each other are quite small compared to travel in the US. Even London to Belgrade is only 1049 miles which is shorter than the distance from New York to Miami.

This is a troll post right? I mean outside of the fact that while most Americans dont understand the make up of the United Kingdom and such. Ok I can let that pass. Than you get to the "they" try to keep the ETC in Eastern Europe for expence? Really? What is Germany, Switzerland and is not the one next year in France? While cost may be a part its really about the package put forth by the team sponsoring it. If cheap was what they wanted, Switzerland would have been rules out before the bid even was sent. Finally just trying flying to Moscow from the UK and see how long it takes. In fact even from Switzerland it is still a good flight.

Wow- I give you plus 1 for troll posting

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:
As a general comment on all the remarks about how "Scotland is not a country"

#1. As far as the USA is concerned Scotland is not a country. Europeans might think of them more as a country because they traditionally operate in sports as one, but to the US they are part of the country of the United Kingdom.

Funny, I know plenty of Americans who are of Scottish descent who are always keen to let me know, however, I have yet to meet anyone from any of the isles that tells me they are of UK descent....not sure if you ever sat down and looked through the ETC thread that Mike Brandt referenced earlier, but if you do you'll see that all of the fantastic statements like this are part of the reason that many in the ETC just broadly rejected the idea that the US have more than one team.

Think you'll find that if rather than trying to impose a US centric view on the Europeans, you sit down and listen to their point of view that you'll find they are more interested in working with us.

sabote wrote:
This is a troll post right? I mean outside of the fact that while most Americans dont understand the make up of the United Kingdom and such. Ok I can let that pass.

Both the UN & the EU treat the United Kingdom as a single country. I have no interest in trolling here, but I truly don't understand - why are Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland/England treated independently for the ETC? From this side of the pond, it really does look like they are equivalent to our individual states.

Wasnt the ETC based on Fifa rules for countries?, I seem to remember something like that.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 jifel wrote:

This man needs a medal, he hit the nail on the head. Bringing a few counter armies to change up the team could help a lot. Adding something like Tyranids or Dark Eldar (both are armies that are match-up prone, but not regarded as top tier. Tyranids for example can ROFLstomp Necrons or Daemons a lot more reliably than a top-tier Tau list.)

Huh? Riptides are a huge problem for Necrons.

I was referring more to Daemons then Necrons. But, I've seen Necrons do pretty evil things to Tau before. (to be fair, I've also seen Tau beat up Crons pretty bad.)

 Janthkin wrote:

sabote wrote:
This is a troll post right? I mean outside of the fact that while most Americans dont understand the make up of the United Kingdom and such. Ok I can let that pass.

Both the UN & the EU treat the United Kingdom as a single country. I have no interest in trolling here, but I truly don't understand - why are Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland/England treated independently for the ETC? From this side of the pond, it really does look like they are equivalent to our individual states.

Actually I would argue our states are more independent as MV once pointed out in a much longer discussion but for the history of it all you will just have to read up.

And yes its based on FIFA

MarkyMark wrote:
Wasn’t the ETC based on Fifa rules for countries?, I seem to remember something like that.

Yes. That is why they are treated as 4 different countries in the ETC because of that precedent.

America has no idea what the FIFA is because soccer is not very popular here. That is why the Europeans see them as 4 separate countries because they always compete in the most popular sport in Europe as 4 separate countries, so it is natural to them that they do it in 40k the same way.

Since the US has not had any interest in soccer we only see the UK operating as one country in the Olympics and the UN etc.

That is why there is a large disconnect with the US and European’s view of how the UK is treated.

sabote wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:
As a general comment on all the remarks about how "Scotland is not a country"

#1. As far as the USA is concerned Scotland is not a country. Europeans might think of them more as a country because they traditionally operate in sports as one, but to the US they are part of the country of the United Kingdom.

 Alkasyn wrote:
"It is easier to travel from one backwater country in Europe to another one" I just want to say that there is a lot to learn by some people posting in this thread.

#2. You kind of lumped two of my comments together. They were:

 Blackmoor wrote:
Not only will the ETC never allow it, but you will never be able to get the16 of the best 40k gamers in the US to travel to the backwaters of Europe just for a tournament.

The ETC was held in Novi Sad Serbia. To give some perspective, this city has the population of Laredo Texas and the closest airport to it is in Belgrade 80km away. This is not a major city, and lacks any reason to go to it other than the ETC. I also hear that they try to keep the ETC near Eastern Europe because travel for them is harder and more expensive than for the Western Europeans, and the reason that the ETC will not be held in England.

 Blackmoor wrote:
Those countries have a lot easier time knowing who their best players are (since they are all at the same tournaments), but also the travel to the ETC is not an issue so they can have them all go.

The distances from European counties to each other are quite small compared to travel in the US. Even London to Belgrade is only 1049 miles which is shorter than the distance from New York to Miami.

This is a troll post right? I mean outside of the fact that while most Americans dont understand the make up of the United Kingdom and such. Ok I can let that pass. Than you get to the "they" try to keep the ETC in Eastern Europe for expence? Really? What is Germany, Switzerland and is not the one next year in France? While cost may be a part its really about the package put forth by the team sponsoring it. If cheap was what they wanted, Switzerland would have been rules out before the bid even was sent. Finally just trying flying to Moscow from the UK and see how long it takes. In fact even from Switzerland it is still a good flight.

Wow- I give you plus 1 for troll posting

So not saying travelling is nothing (don't know laws and such) but Moscow to London is about a 3.5 hour flight.

New York (probably the closest US airport or at least one of them) to London is ~7.5 hours....hardly really comparable. The flight time from New York To San Fransisco is nearly 6 hours. So Barring Drive times US travel is significantly more timewise than any other country involved (after all we are the only country crossing a ocean). Now I'm not saying that this means we definitely should have a second team, but when travel time accross our country equates to travel time across Europe, it says something.

Throw in population. as of 2010 all of Europe had 711,064,145 vs US 316,444,000, So a little more than twice as many people. With Russia being the Largest at about half of US population.

Russia 142,905,208
Germany 81,757,600
Spain 47,150,800
Poland 38,192,000
France 65,460,000
United Kingdom 62,041,708

Again this does not me we "deserve" another team...there is no reason we need be invited at all. Just that perhaps it is more difficult for the US to find the 8 best players in a a land area of 9,827,000 Sq KM when all of Europe is 10,180,000 (not including mostly asian Russia as it is not densly populated, and I doubt their players are really coming from there.). Essentially we are attempting to find 8 players from an area the Size of Europe and with half the population of all of Europe. Where each of the other 27 teams is drawing from a much smaller portion.

Yep just checked, in that case tough, they follow the Fifa rules and Fifa allow a scottish, english and welsh team, I am sure if the captains were petitioned then they may do a vote but discussing this on here wont effect much.

I can see the issue in that if the US have more then one team why cant other nations.

Plus isnt this thread about the team that has just competed in the ETC lets leave it at that rather then get into anything else.