Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I like the Lord of Skulls though (then again my favorite Batman movie is the 1966 one so my tastes might be a bit odd)! I'm considering getting one for my Dark Mechanicus project.

Everything is OK in a Dark Mech project. Even a Dreadknight, a Centurion or a Stormraven would fit.

Good luck with that project of yours. I am keeping an eye on your thread on Proposed Rules. By the way, did you read "Dark Adeptus" by Ben Counter? Not particularly bad, and it is Darkmech Vs GK.

 doktor_g wrote:
Best thing about the new rules is that now you can truly purchase the victory. I won't have to worry about all those kids without jobs or money beating me anymore. "Take that! Child's play!"

You do that. let me know how it works out when you face the melta spam that is SoB, drop-pod marines or enclaves.
"That 900 point titan? yea. dead on T1."

 BoomWolf wrote:

 doktor_g wrote:
Best thing about the new rules is that now you can truly purchase the victory. I won't have to worry about all those kids without jobs or money beating me anymore. "Take that! Child's play!"

You do that. let me know how it works out when you face the melta spam that is SoB, drop-pod marines or enclaves.
"That 900 point titan? yea. dead on T1."

Or Gauss. A titan is just a big walker, and necrons are good at killing those.

I think Arcanthrites might be nasty with that no-scatter warlord trait. Have them form a 6" circle around the vehicle, and cut it up with cutters. Hope they survive and then chip it apart with void blades.

 da001 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I like the Lord of Skulls though (then again my favorite Batman movie is the 1966 one so my tastes might be a bit odd)! I'm considering getting one for my Dark Mechanicus project.

Everything is OK in a Dark Mech project. Even a Dreadknight, a Centurion or a Stormraven would fit.

Good luck with that project of yours. I am keeping an eye on your thread on Proposed Rules. By the way, did you read "Dark Adeptus" by Ben Counter? Not particularly bad, and it is Darkmech Vs GK.

Thanks. Future updates are actually only going to be on TWG so I don't have to try and keep reposting and checking several boards. Links will be in my signature to the most recent part, and every post will back link to the old ones to let people catch up. I hope to have my next part up by the end of next week, after Finals.

By accident Dark Adeptus was the first of the Grey Knights trilogy I read. Pretty good in my mind for a Dark Mech reference. Iron Hands and Eisenhorn have nice Daemon Engine action too. Not strictly Dark Mech but those do tie in rather strongly.

I think people are overestimating the revenant in both directions...vastly.

The titan has a 36" move, a 3++/4++ which can be taken after cover, and 60" weapons. If you think you are killing it first turn against even a remotely competent player you are joking.

With this said it is not unkillable. If you are not conservative with it it would not be unusual to see a turn 2 or 3 kill.

My only problem with it is you need to build every list almost completely around SH/GC killing and D weapon defense. This means any army that doesn't go MSU and almost maxed out AT will flop badly. This eliminates variety in lists for a polarized environment of SH and GC lists. 2++ rerollables didn't have nearly the damage output of these so I could mitigate them. Most of the SH except for the Tau have enough damage, mobility, and/or carrying capacity to ensure they are the center of any game.

@ansacs: multi-level buildings on the table to benefit from numbers, but to minimize casualties (templates only hit one level, unless I'm missing some rule that lets D-Weapons nuke whole buildings) and Void Projectors to help mitigate D-Weapons.

That or play Green Tide and laugh as they desperately try to kill enough models to matter. It's not like Orks don't die en-masse to blasts anyways.

Or if you are me, proxy a nightbringer as a Transcendent C'tan. Then go Sephiroth

That will be my go to response to someone who is really insistent on Escalation.

 ansacs wrote:


The titan has a 36" move, a 3++/4++ which can be taken after cover, and 60" weapons. If you think you are killing it first turn against even a remotely competent player you are joking.

What is a 3++? I figure the 4++ is the invulnerable save, but what is the 3++? I thought 3+ is armour save, but an extra +? Is that an apocalypse stat?

Davor wrote:

 ansacs wrote:


The titan has a 36" move, a 3++/4++ which can be taken after cover, and 60" weapons. If you think you are killing it first turn against even a remotely competent player you are joking.

What is a 3++? I figure the 4++ is the invulnerable save, but what is the 3++? I thought 3+ is armour save, but an extra +? Is that an apocalypse stat?

Neither is invul. That is a holo-field. What happens is before you roll for pen, you have to roll to see if you bypass the holo-field. If it moves, you have to roll 4+. If it doesn't move, you have to roll a 3+.

Also, do titans even get cover? They are a bit...big to be obscured, no?

Davor wrote:

 ansacs wrote:


The titan has a 36" move, a 3++/4++ which can be taken after cover, and 60" weapons. If you think you are killing it first turn against even a remotely competent player you are joking.

What is a 3++? I figure the 4++ is the invulnerable save, but what is the 3++? I thought 3+ is armour save, but an extra +? Is that an apocalypse stat?

3+ is an armor save of 3 or higher.
3++ is an invulnerable save of 3 or higher.

The extra + makes it invulnerable.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Also, do titans even get cover? They are a bit...big to be obscured, no?

I'm not familiar with their rules but couldn't they do the "Hokey Pokey"(Put one foot in area terrain ) cover routine Flyrants etc do?

 Eldarain wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Also, do titans even get cover? They are a bit...big to be obscured, no?

I'm not familiar with their rules but couldn't they do the "Hokey Pokey"(Put one foot in ) cover routine Flyrants etc do?

Elaborate, what is the Hokey Pokey? Does that have something to do with area terrain?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Also, do titans even get cover? They are a bit...big to be obscured, no?

I'm not familiar with their rules but couldn't they do the "Hokey Pokey"(Put one foot in area terrain ) cover routine Flyrants etc do?

Elaborate, what is the Hokey Pokey? Does that have something to do with area terrain?

Yeah meant to add that in there.

 Eldarain wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Also, do titans even get cover? They are a bit...big to be obscured, no?

I'm not familiar with their rules but couldn't they do the "Hokey Pokey"(Put one foot in area terrain ) cover routine Flyrants etc do?

Elaborate, what is the Hokey Pokey? Does that have something to do with area terrain?

Yeah meant to add that in there.

In that case, no. Unlike MC and Infantry, area terrain does not protect vehicles. They must have be at least 25% obscured in order to get the save. Pg75, brb.

Of course, if there are enough buildings on the table, then even a titan will get a save. This is where flanking comes in handy, I would think.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Davor wrote:

 ansacs wrote:


The titan has a 36" move, a 3++/4++ which can be taken after cover, and 60" weapons. If you think you are killing it first turn against even a remotely competent player you are joking.

What is a 3++? I figure the 4++ is the invulnerable save, but what is the 3++? I thought 3+ is armour save, but an extra +? Is that an apocalypse stat?

Neither is invul. That is a holo-field. What happens is before you roll for pen, you have to roll to see if you bypass the holo-field. If it moves, you have to roll 4+. If it doesn't move, you have to roll a 3+.

Also, do titans even get cover? They are a bit...big to be obscured, no?

You are correct. I should start saying Holo3+ or something to differentiate. We will need new terminology.

As far as I am aware SH get cover just like vehicles. A bastion or skyshield is a good way to give a titan a 3+ cover or 4++ save. Combined with invisibility this could make SH very very tough to kill.

ClockworkZion wrote:@ansacs: multi-level buildings on the table to benefit from numbers, but to minimize casualties (templates only hit one level, unless I'm missing some rule that lets D-Weapons nuke whole buildings) and Void Projectors to help mitigate D-Weapons.

That or play Green Tide and laugh as they desperately try to kill enough models to matter. It's not like Orks don't die en-masse to blasts anyways.

You are right about multi level ruins but that is a very un fun way to play (aka gunline style play) and void shields help a little but are easy to negate with token AT shooting. Both also count on you either having a gunline style army or protecting a token force (which the titan could jump up and assault).

Green tide won't be as good as you might think when we are talking 4-5 models in an average blast (green tide players never get max coherence due to board space/need to move). The real problem is that if you just take boyz you will have trouble closing with the SH and if you take anything else it dies. Not that it cannot be done just that this is not a hard counter due to the small footprint of the SH based armies.

BTW even a revenant is pretty good in assault.

I just had a look through the Escalation book and I am surprised to say that I'm against it in its current form. Normally, I love getting bigger models into the game and expanding the options of how you can structure your army. But this? This is just too much Auto-Win even for a die hard power gamer like me. The Revenant is just impossibly good, but it's not only that. It's the absolute lack of coherency in the choices they published, the brokenness of D weapons in normal 40k, the absurd level of firepower that certain models bring. It's insane. I think one of the sleeper hits here is going to be the relatively cheap Transcendant C'Tan/Tesseract Vault. Sky of Falling Stars is enough to sweep an entire army off the board, and will take an hour and a half to fully resolve the attack with 6 Apoc Barrage shots every turn.

I' actually kind of glad for once that I'm elsewhere in the world where there's no 40k to be played. I'm gonna let the meta take this one on the chin and adjust itself before I come home.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although I now expect to see an upsurge in the number of deep-strike/reserves alpha strike builds like the pods full of Sternguard of yesteryear.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Davor wrote:

 ansacs wrote:


The titan has a 36" move, a 3++/4++ which can be taken after cover, and 60" weapons. If you think you are killing it first turn against even a remotely competent player you are joking.

What is a 3++? I figure the 4++ is the invulnerable save, but what is the 3++? I thought 3+ is armour save, but an extra +? Is that an apocalypse stat?

Neither is invul. That is a holo-field. What happens is before you roll for pen, you have to roll to see if you bypass the holo-field. If it moves, you have to roll 4+. If it doesn't move, you have to roll a 3+.

Also, do titans even get cover? They are a bit...big to be obscured, no?

Thank you very much for the explanation.

On the subject of using fw in escalation. Doesn't imperial armour 2 2nd edition contain lord of war entries? I'm just wondering if it would be worth buying? I'm gonna get it anyway but yeah, that would be a boon.

For those who bought Escalation on the iPad like me thinking it was an ibook interactive version (because ALL their other ebook products say 'ebook edition' in their title), just to let you know, I reported the issue to itunes and was immediately (and I mean immediately, seconds after clicking 'submit') granted a refund.

I don't know if its because I've bought so many other products via itunes and never complained or if they know this problem exists or what, but I got an instantaneous credit back. So if you're unsatisfied with owning an ebook version when you thought you were getting an ibook interactive product, I'd suggest you do the same!

Hey, just so you know, you can screw over those "melta guns" by either hiding it behind a bastion (3+ cover) or putting it on top of skyshield (lulz) for a 4++. So now they need to basically reroll to hit you and you have a 4++. And when you don't kill it, his broad side friends will vape you.

Not to mention anyone smart will bring an Ordo Xeno Inquisitor (fluffy!) and his three servo skulls to make sure you can't infiltrate or scout anywhere near it.

Then, finally, enjoy your opponents face when you cast fortune and prescience on it... Unless I'm missing something unique about Titans.

 TheKbob wrote:
Hey, just so you know, you can screw over those "melta guns" by either hiding it behind a bastion (3+ cover) or putting it on top of skyshield (lulz) for a 4++. So now they need to basically reroll to hit you and you have a 4++. And when you don't kill it, his broad side friends will vape you.

Not to mention anyone smart will bring an Ordo Xeno Inquisitor (fluffy!) and his three servo skulls to make sure you can't infiltrate or scout anywhere near it.

Then, finally, enjoy your opponents face when you cast fortune and prescience on it... Unless I'm missing something unique about Titans.

Depends on how tall those arms are in relation to the height of the bastion. Remember, the LOS for a weapon is from the gun, not the head of a walker, and it only has a 45* swivel, which means that Eldar titan may not be tall enough to shoot over the Bastion.

I'd need one of each to check, but I'd be interested to know if it could without needing to be modeled insanely.

 ansacs wrote:
I think people are overestimating the revenant in both directions...vastly.

The titan has a 36" move, a 3++/4++ which can be taken after cover, and 60" weapons. If you think you are killing it first turn against even a remotely competent player you are joking.

With this said it is not unkillable. If you are not conservative with it it would not be unusual to see a turn 2 or 3 kill.

You're working hypothesis is that your units that can kill the Revenant are still alive in round 2 or 3. However, the Revenant has a very high killing potential and your army will start to crumble when facin four D 5'' blasts ignoring cover every turn.

 kronk wrote:

Davor wrote:

 ansacs wrote:


The titan has a 36" move, a 3++/4++ which can be taken after cover, and 60" weapons. If you think you are killing it first turn against even a remotely competent player you are joking.

What is a 3++? I figure the 4++ is the invulnerable save, but what is the 3++? I thought 3+ is armour save, but an extra +? Is that an apocalypse stat?

3+ is an armor save of 3 or higher.
3++ is an invulnerable save of 3 or higher.

The extra + makes it invulnerable.

Just to clarify, people are misunderstanding the 'eldar titan holofield' rule.
The player shooting the titan rolls to see if his shot gets through. 3+ if it did not move, 4+ if it did move. That is to succeed at the shot, not to save against it. So it is equivalent to a 5+ invulnerable save, 4+ if you moved, which you will have except on the first turn. With 2 differences:
You get the protection against D weapons. This is huge.
You can stack it with a cover/invulnerable save. The revenant will hardly ever be able to get conventional cover. I suppose you might be able to buff it with some psychic power.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Just to clarify, people are misunderstanding the 'eldar titan holofield' rule.
The player shooting the titan rolls to see if his shot gets through. 3+ if it did not move, 4+ if it did move. That is to succeed at the shot, not to save against it. So it is equivalent to a 5+ invulnerable save, 4+ if you moved, which you will have except on the first turn. With 2 differences:
You get the protection against D weapons. This is huge.
You can stack it with a cover/invulnerable save. The revenant will hardly ever be able to get conventional cover. I suppose you might be able to buff it with some psychic power.

It is actually directly before armour pen rolls (just in case some special ability is there) and it is statistically equivalent to a 3++ or 4++ invulnerable save but better in every way. (aka Commutative Property of Multiplication)

wuestenfux wrote:You're working hypothesis is that your units that can kill the Revenant are still alive in round 2 or 3. However, the Revenant has a very high killing potential and your army will start to crumble when facin four D 5'' blasts ignoring cover every turn.

You can mitigate damage. It can target only two units with its D of DOOOOOM! Therefore if you have 5 targets and spread them between multiple ruin levels/keep them out of LoS it becomes literally impossible for the SH player to kill all the units before turn 2. You will need to keep your SH hunters in reserve so they can either walk on and kill it (O'Vesa Star), DS in to kill it (MM landspeeders or farsight bomb), or outflank (devil dogs). You can also alpha strike it for a high risk, high reward (aka vect DE). I do agree that D strength weapons should not have been put into the game but don't kid yourself that they are unbeatable. The secret is simple; flyers and extreme MSU to negate the SH shooting and SH hunters for ~900 pts of your army will allow you to win without LoW in the new meta...I don't like it but it is what it is.

You can mitigate damage. It can target only two units with its D of DOOOOOM!

Where does it say that he can only target two units?

Huh, I just realized that it's pulsars can't hit flyers. Go, flying bakery, go!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:

You can mitigate damage. It can target only two units with its D of DOOOOOM!

Where does it say that he can only target two units?

Technically, it can target 3. But no one cares about the missile launcher. They do care about the Pulsars, of which it has 2 of.

Also, after reading the rules for SH Walkers, it seems that you can lock them in combat now.

No CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT. Talk about dropping the ball on writing the Escalation rules.

 Purifier wrote:
No CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT. Talk about dropping the ball on writing the Escalation rules.

Forge World is releasing a pdf in the next few days of all the stuff they have that can be taken as Lords of War so don't panic yet. The main studio focused on what was in plastic kits over everything else so it's no surprise there that there are options missing.

I only hope I can bring my pylon because I don't wanna be fielding my deciever as the ice skating double flamer of doom cheese

 A GumyBear wrote:
I only hope I can bring my pylon because I don't wanna be fielding my deciever as the ice skating double flamer of doom cheese

I for one will be using my Night Bringer as an ice skating Sephiroth wannabe with terrible breath