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When a 14 point genestealer has the same in-game balance and effectiveness as a 14 point space marine I will consider the codex balanced overall.

Maybe changes in 7th edition will somehow reflect that (consolidation into close combat, assault after an outflank move, etc). Maybe.

Going by the preview video released today from GW regarding 7th edition, Lords of War will have their own slot in the core rulebook FOC for battle-forged armies.

I foresee my harridan in lots of future battles post 5/24/2014.

I foresee Battle-forged being house ruled as the standard way to play, with unbound games only coming as a result of a conversation between two people.

However as stated above, i have no qualms over fielding my super heavy flyer in a standard game of 40K once the Lord of War slot has been injected into the main game.

Assuming these other rumors are true (the lord of war one is, but that doesn't mean all the others are) then I could see my genestealers making a return to the table with Consolidation to CC.

Aside from that I just need to see how it all shakes out. Just about 12 more days and we will know it all (probably sooner than then actually).

Battle Anecdote time!

Last night i played 1500 points vs a Loganwing list.

He had
Logan
2x10 Wolf guard with TDA, 2x combi-meltas, cyclone
One of the Wolf Guard was Arjac Rockfist
1x6 long fangs with 5x Missile Launchers, and a flamer on the sarge
Vindicator w/ Siege Shield

I had showed up with my "Bugs in a Box" list that consisted of:

Swarmlord w/ 1x Tyrant Guard
13x Genestealers
7x Genestealers
3x Hive Guard
1x Zoanthrope
2x1 Biovores
Endless Swarm:
3x Warriors - deathspitters
2x10 Termagants - fleshborers
1x10 Termagants - devourers
2x10 Hormagaunts- Toxin Sacs
1x10 Hormagaunts - no upgrades
Bastion - Ammo Store, Escape Hatch

So at the beginning of the fight I felt pretty confident as I had 9 scoring units compared to his 2. Then we rolled the mission - 2...Purge the Alien! Suddenly it went from an easy match up to i needed to table this guy to win. I placed my bastion midfield, about 1" from the center line, and he won the roll to go first.

Quick note - i rolled Paroxysm on both my Zoey and Swarmy - this was key throughout the battle. As was Psychic Scream, which i'll get to near the end.

Turn 1 - Due to night fight, he only managed to kill a handful of hormagaunts from 2 of the 3 broods. His vindicator took a shot at the bastion but didn't penetrate (lucky me). My turn, i managed to get paroxysm off on both his units of wolf guard, making them WS3. The genestealer brood of 13 bailed out of the bastion, about 8" from his wolf guard and 4" from the vindicator. Warp Lance from Swarmlord failed to destroy the vindicator, so i went after it (with furious charge from swarmy) with the genestealers. 40 attacks later, it was a wreck but my brood was tightly clumped. Biovores killed maybe 1 long fang.

Turn 2 - His wolf guard with logan attached kill 9 genestealers from the large brood (the smaller brood of 7 was hiding behind some BLOS terrain). However, the 4 remaining ones were behind the vindicator husk and prevented his charge. The other unit of wolf guard finished off a hormagaunt brood, with arjac's hammer doing the final wound. Very cinematic. That brood would not return via endless swarm. The long fangs threw out some frag missiles and killed a few termagants, and that was about it.

My turn 2 was when the hammer needed to fall. I paroxysm'd logan's unit to WS2, and ignored the other unit for now. I moved 2 hormagaunt units, a warrior brood (they had gotten into the bastion via the escape hatch after the genestealers bailed out turn 1, and disembarked this turn netting them +18" movement over 2 turns) and both genestealer broods into postion to assault logan's unit. He had a heavy flamer within, so i declared charge first with my naked hormagaunts - he opted not to overwatch, and i then proceeded to fail my charge. Damn you random charge lengths! He did overwatch the second hormagaunt brood but only killed 3, and they made it into CC. The genestealer units both made base contact, as did the 3 warriors.

For brevity's sake i'll fast-forward here - this multiple-melee lasted for the entire rest of the game. Thanks to paroxysm he took apart the tiny units very slowly as the genestealer's rending claws picked at his wolf guard bit by bit.

By turn 5, swarmlord was ready to join the battle and finish off the other wolf guard unit. He cast "psychic scream" and it successfully passed - i then rolled 6, 6 on Logan grimnar (who was alone by this time) and he failed his invulnerable saves - BAHAHAHA. Swarmlord charged and challenged Arjac to deadly battle - sadly, his storm shield held for a turn and he put 2 wounds on swarmy. Then, on turn 6 he and swarmlord Double-KO'ed each other in a very cinematic finish. The rest of the wolf guard and long fangs had been systematically picked apart by weight of dice forcing saves, so my opponent ended the game with no models left.

Tyranid Victory!

I don't always run a swarm army, but i do think it's very fitting to have Swarmlord in charge when i do.

rigeld2 wrote:
Ah - missed the "Repel the Enemy" rule.
But yes, Escape Hatch explicitly says it doesn't apply.

Right, let me explain how i did it a little better:

The bastion is outside of my DZ, with the main door facing towards the enemy DZ.
The escape hatch is 12" from the back edge of the building, placing it about 7" from my table edge in my own DZ.
The genestealers used "infiltrate" to start deployed inside the building.

His turn one, yes, he did move forward on foot with everything.

My turn one i disembarked the genestealer unit (the other had infiltrated behind BLOS terrain). With the bastion now empty, my warriors used the escape hatch in my DZ to enter it. On turn 2 they disembarked from the regular door, so they could assault with the repel the enemy rule. So their total movement from the table edge to the escape hatch was 6:", the bastion is just shy of 6" wide so when they disembarked their total movment from the escape hatch was actually closer to 24" (12" to bastion edge, 6" bastion width, 6" disembark move) . It's a pretty good slingshot tactic but it takes 1 turn to set up.

Edit - also deployment was dawn of war, hammer and anvil would have changed a lot of things regarding range and tactics.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
If only Toxin Sacs made shooting attacks poisoned as well.

Wait. Maybe the poisoned rule will change.

 ductvader wrote:

barnowl wrote:
Random note of interest in the WD Battle Report between 'nids and Orks. Even the GW staff forgets that Trevigons are not characters now. Also probably means there is no intention of FAQ them to be characters in 7e, so no Trevi Warlords.

Did they challenge it?

It's not even that dramatic. The ork player forgot and wanted to challenge, but the nid player informed him Tervigons aren't characters.

I preordered my Valedor book but wasn't able to pick it up over the weekend. Hopefully it'll be at the store waiting on me after work today.

If shadow incarnate is a psychic choir, they pool their Warp Charge points together before casting powers - that's how a standard ML2 hive tyrant could cast a WC3 power.

Of course in 5 days psychic abilities change altogether so there's that...

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Unfortunately there are other rules that prevent armies from allying with themselves.

But not from taking multiple detachments regardless of points.

Wakshaani wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Unfortunately there are other rules that prevent armies from allying with themselves.

But not from taking multiple detachments regardless of points.

I keep seeing this MENTIONED but never PROVEN.

Do we have certin confirmation on that yet? Because, man, does it open up a TON of Tyranid possibilities.

From the Games Workshop Blog:



First paragraph, upper left hand corner.

Sadly knee-jerk tournament organizers will list events as 2 detachments max battle forged etc etc.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Flyrants are definitely still useful, just more as a psyker and gunboat than a combat threat.

sneaky ninja flyrant creeps along, behind the bushes and shrubs.

Giving the enemy 1 turn to fire at full BS before mounting an assault is fair play. If they ground you before hand it means you'll charge 1 turn sooner. Whoops!

 N.I.B. wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Flyrants are definitely still useful, just more as a psyker and gunboat than a combat threat.

sneaky ninja flyrant creeps along, behind the bushes and shrubs.

Giving the enemy 1 turn to fire at full BS before mounting an assault is fair play. !

I assume you're ironic. Because it's not like your opponent wouldn't calmly move his units outside charge distance, nono.

I stop 1" away. You move and shoot. Then I move 12" as a jump mc and assault with 2d6" and fleet. Only eldar can get away from that reliably.

Also if you're running away from your objectives, for example, that helps too.

 jifel wrote:

 Ifurita wrote:
I was just planning on running waves of rippers + harridan.

For those with escalation, how much is a harridan, in Zoanthropes?

14.7

And worth every one.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Even when bound, you can even take double, triple and quad level of charts, as long you meet the required HQ and troops.

I've been saying that for 2 days, now. Sheesh.

I'm telling you guys, forget the old 40k. Let battle forged and unbound forces clash at-will. The game will move on as it ever did. Just enforce wysiwyg and the abuse and shenanigans will police themselves. Who the hell buys 10 hell drakes just to win toy soldiers? (Then auto-loses turn 1 for no models on the board)

bodazoka wrote:
So... consider this.

Psykers are allowed to shoot as many witchfire powers as they want against different targets. This no longer effects the ability to shoot all your weapons.

A Tyrant rolling Warp Blast and Psycic scream is now one of the best alpha strikes in the game! Not to mention once you fly up first turn, Blast then Scream then Shoot your devs your opponent will make sure he hits the ground in his shooting phase leaving you free to charge in yours!!

Massive massive bonus!

All very true statements.

 Iechine wrote:
It's a good time to have him running around...



So with the critical nerfs to FMC's, I feel like adrenal glands and Trygon's may have a new purpose. But theres now simply no way to justify a flying Tyrant with a Reaper, even in fun games, which sucks because I really liked that particular Tyrant.

I just cant fathom the 1 smash attack only that still has to roll to hit.

Crones just went way out of style...to me they were the silver lining of our codex, and now not so much. : /

I think you'll find them useful still. Playing them differently does not make them bad when others will also be playing their armies differently.

 jifel wrote:

bodazoka wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Iechine wrote:

Crones just went way out of style...to me they were the silver lining of our codex, and now not so much. : /

They are better at just circling around vector striking people though, d3 S8 AP2 autohits will do a serious number on any elite unit.

Vector strikes are just one hit now at AP2.

To be fair they are also much harder to ground which for me was there biggest weakness. Someone would easily ground it and just tear through those wounds.

They are tougher to kill by far. Now, I wonderifI it will be worth it to buy extra guns for them, as they'll live long enough to run out of missiles, and vector strike is situational.

Flamers kill passengers of open topped vehicles in case you missed it (d6 hits at str and ap of weapon). Crones still have tons of early to mid game use! Then landing to score a distant objective at the end of game. Win.

 jifel wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
So I still don't really understand why rippers are so good. The meta is still S6/7-spam. That is instant death for those little buggers. And they aren't exactly cheap either. 1 little bugger costs more than 3 termagants. Am I missing something here?

Rippers are very low maintenance scoring units. For basically gant pricing, you get 1 less wound, but gain stealth and fearless. Combine with shrouding from a venom and they'll be hard to shoot down. I think the most crucial part is their size. If stronghold assault is mainstream now, you can add a single defense piece to your Bastion, and that will block LoS completely. Also, their IB really isn't that deadly.

Ld5 with feed is the issue. Though a lone ripper swarm could feasibly hide on an objective.

 Kain wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 jifel wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
So I still don't really understand why rippers are so good. The meta is still S6/7-spam. That is instant death for those little buggers. And they aren't exactly cheap either. 1 little bugger costs more than 3 termagants. Am I missing something here?

Rippers are very low maintenance scoring units. For basically gant pricing, you get 1 less wound, but gain stealth and fearless. Combine with shrouding from a venom and they'll be hard to shoot down. I think the most crucial part is their size. If stronghold assault is mainstream now, you can add a single defense piece to your Bastion, and that will block LoS completely. Also, their IB really isn't that deadly.

Ld5 with feed is the issue. Though a lone ripper swarm could feasibly hide on an objective.

Rippers with feed are much better than horms with feed...only 9 s3 attacks instead of 30 s3 attacks.

Assuming they don't eat themselves or break when they start losing assault.

Which is quite a dangerous assumption to make.

Rippers are fearless.

Someone in the 7ed thread just pointed out brood lords will have dominion thanks to psychic focus. If it's faq'ed to work out that way, it could be a good use to endure genestealers are fearless in cc.

Xyptc wrote:

luke1705 wrote:
I don't think that it's a valid argument in any way, but RAW wouldn't that mean that their synapse range goes from 0 to 6"?

Not if they don't have the Synapse rule to begin with. In order to have a Synapse range you need to have the Synapse rule, no Synapse rule = nothing to boost the range of. Sort of like how the Force psychic power gives all weapons in the unit with the Force rule ID. No force rule on the weapon = no effect from the Force power.

Don't get me wrong, Synaptic Broodlords would be a cool throwback to 4th Edition, but I just don't think I could follow through with that argument.

Still, I'm happy that Pinning has made units a little easier to assault so Broodlords were passively buffed a little (which is nice, since the Broodlord Hunting Pack can be pretty lethal anyway).

Consider that psychic phase is after movement as well - that gives the brood time to get into position before throwing out morale checks.

My tyranid carnivorous forests warlord trait is even more useless now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

luke1705 wrote:
As far as I can tell, however, what is gone is the cover save for simply being in area terrain. Let GW call it whatever they want - I didn't see a reference that allowed a cover save to be taken unless the model is actually 25% obscured or more. Especially notable is that FMC seem to be out of luck entirely for cover in terrain (again unless 25% obscured). I'll have to read more thoroughly, as I didn't look at the book for that long, but I'd love to hear what those of you who have read (or now own) the book think about this. I sure would like to keep that 3+ cover on my FMCs when near enough to a Venomthrope.

On a completely different note, I just want to say that it is possible to sand, wash, assemble, base and prime a hierophant in a single day (less than 6 hours) if you skip a few bells and whistles (some of the tiny tiny spikes). Looking forward to using it in an apoc game tomorrow (thank goodness for lax metas where it doesn't need to be painted fully, especially because I suck at painting!)

The description for ruins and craters specifically mention being in them grants a save regardless if the model is obscured.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
How are you going to deal with being punched in the face by a dreadnought now?

12 S6 shots up its pooper should do the trick.


Hey guys, scoring lictors! Scoring lictors ! Hiding a lictor on a far away objective and going to ground can actually help in game! Woo!

Xyptc wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
How are you going to deal with being punched in the face by a dreadnought now?

In my list, I have the following to handle melee walkers:

12 tl S6 shots from the Tyrant
Egrubs on the Tyrant
Egrubs on the Tervigon
Smash on the Tervigon
Bioplasmic Cannon (streams seem like the better option there)

The Tervigon is actually pretty dangerous to a melee walker, especially if she is in cover.



In completely unrelated news, has anyone considered the following for an Unbound list?

Winged Tyrant
2x tl Devourers, Egrubs
240

Winged Tyrant
2x tl Devourers, Egrubs

Crone
155

Crone
155

142 Spore Mines (23 cluusters of 6, 1 cluster of 4)
710

1500 total

Boom.

Since spore mines are never scoring I don't see that list winning much of anything.

FMCs can jink even when they're in jump mode.

That assault FMC will have a 4+ cover save prior to getting into melee.

If the enemy foolishly grounds your assault FMC it will be in combat 1 turn sooner.

You're all welcome.

 jy2 wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
If I didn't have to pay the harpy tax then I'd be really interested, But as it is, I don't think it's for me. Please take a look at my list jy2? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596697.page

It's a cheap FMC that can be used to draw enemy fire.

I don't have my codex with me right now so can't verify, but harpies can drop off spore mines. Since everything is scoring right now, that could potentially be more free scoring units. Can someone please help verify the rules for the spore mines in the codex? Thanks.

"living bomb: spore mine clusters are non-scoring, non-denial units. ..."

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Surely you'd agree Heirophants are a massive over costed waste of space? The model is gorgeous, but damn is expensive when a Imperial knight at half the price can annihilate it in combat?

16-32 s10 shots can certainly hinder the knight getting to the hierophant.

That said, a swooping harridan is a far better counter punch to knight titans.

 jy2 wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
He's still over 800 points though right? For two bio cannons.....

Just not worth it,

The thing is, he can potentially kill 3 units a turn. Fire 6 S10 shots at 2 different tanks and then assault a 3rd completely different unit. BTW, with his upgrades, you can give him more guns like 6 twin-linked S7 skyfire shots or a huge hellstorm template. Now you are looking at a unit that can potentially kill up to 4 or 5 different units a turn.

And he's quite hard to kill with 2+, T9, 10W and regeneration. Only Destroyer weapons can dependably kill him (at least in the previous edition before they got nerfed). That means you can reliably depend on him to kill potentially several units a turn. That starts to add up.

Bolded emphasis mine. Actually, the rules do not state that. A unit can only charge a target of it's shooting attacks if it fired a ranged weapon. So 2 units/turn, but the stomp table gives you a shot at serious collateral damage.

To the stomp debate about hitting non engaged units - the diagram illustrates 18 ultramarines getting hit - this in no way could be a single unit so it's implicit that it's intended for GCs and SHWs to be able to do it. Plus, it's how the rules read too so there's that.