Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The same goes for dwarves. They have things that just kill, and all you can do is stand there and watch it. Yeah, you can still win the game, but I set up to play against someone, not to simply roll off a bunch of dice, which is what it sometimes feels like.

Wait . So it is fun and good for the game for every other army in the game to have magic that "just kills" and sometimes good machines , while an army that doesn't have magic at all and only has machines is unfun to play against ? How do you imagine dwarfs being played without the "just kill"machines ? Try to manuver like armies that move 2/3/4 times as fast ?

Your local players are not a metagame.

They are your local players.

editing to add:
The metagame of WHFB does not change if you move. (Unless you change books, of course.)
Are you meaning something akin to ETC? That would be a different 'meta' than I play - unless I misread.

 kirsanth wrote:
Your local players are not a metagame.

They are your local players.

And form a local META

Adaptation to a specific gaming environment[edit]
Another game-related use of Metagaming refers to operating on knowledge of the current strategic trends within a game. This usage is common in games that have large, organized play systems or tournament circuits and which feature customized decks of cards, sets of miniatures or other playing pieces for each player. Some examples of this kind of environment are tournament scenes for card games like Magic: The Gathering, or tabletop war-gaming such as Warhammer 40,000 or Flames of War.
Such metagaming could include compiling lists of what race or army choices are being used in a specific region or tournament scene, and tailoring your own army to fight the majority units, for example, knowing that Space Marine variant armies are the largest group of potential opponents, and modifying your own army with equipment which counters the strength of that majority force, or preys upon that majority group's weakness. By doing so, the player is metagaming, as they are attempting to improve their chances for victory by using information outside what will actually take place in a match.

Strength of opponents can vary depending on the store, however since I have played at really competitive places, my armies tend to be more of the competitive side of the coin as thats the strength of the store I play at. And I agree, Dwarf's at the moment NEED the machines that just kill, because we are already at a disadvantage with not being able to use Magic whatsoever, so people need to chill on that. It's something I point out to people all of the time, and you have to realize that Warhammer Fantasy is turning into 40k in the sense that there is no One Army Conquers All. Every army has strengths and weaknesses and all it takes is a little planning and studying to exploit your opponents weakness while minimizing yours. For example, the Army I have the hardest time fighting against Currently with my Brets is the Empire, as they are the most Flexible Army in the game, as you never know what they will bring, which makes it had for me to exploit any weaknesses baring there human stat line, where on the other hand, my army is very strong against Ogre Kingdoms, as not only can I outdistance him on charges and am able to ram a number of lance formations into the all fearing bull-horde, I negate the strength of his Gut Charge as I am on Cavalry bases. Basically, its all rock-paper-sissors. Your Army will be strong against a number of opponents, but be weak against others.


That being said and going back on topic, I still believe Dwarfs will be one of the better shooting lists in the game, as they have solid War-Machines and can field a number of Missile Troops such as Thunderers and Quarrelers as Core Choices, however I am not sure how that will change with the new book. At the same time, I can see the Dwarf Hammerers getting a buff, as they where woefully under-performing due to there high point cost and low survivability, and I can see some possible changes in points on various Dwarf Units, which is common in every book.

 Formosa wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:
Your local players are not a metagame.

They are your local players.

And form a local META

I will assume your additional capitals are to differentiate what happens around you to the metagame of WHFB discussed.

Otherwise it is silly.

editing to add:
If I play one person my discusson of WHFB 'metagame' needs to be addressed by you. . .right?
Or I need to preface every single thing I post with the silliness that MY 'META' is all that matters. As does everyone else.
Discussion in that light is . . . funny at best.

Meta means the game as a whole. WoC meta is melee and no ranged.

That said, local meta is whatever sub-universe has been created because of the players available. If half your players are DoC and WE, your local meta is very high magic attacks. I've heard it just referred to as meta, because most of us live locally as opposed to being international men of mystery, global gamers.

I agree Dorfs can't do a lot of dmg outside of war machines. AND their war machines do tons of dmg. I don't think anyone has denied that. We've stated that from the beginning. We're saying it's dull to walk up to a gunline in a game that is primarily melee-based. Especially with pre-measuring certainty. There's not a lot of skill. You're there, we're there. All you're rolling is for misfires. You're not doing a hell of a lot of tricky movement. It becomes a 40K shoot-fest.

Also, on the area of anti-magic, it's not just protecting yourself. E.g., TK core suck. They are meant to be buffed by their magic so they suck less. If they can't get any spells off, they simply suck. Which kind of brings us back to Dwarf war machines and my example earlier. If TK could go, lol, and make ALL your war machines disabled on a 2+, you would not have fun. You would not say it's great TK strategy that caused it either.

Did you guys not read the definition.. like at all?

Ok to answer the first question, i put "META" to emphasize that you were incorrect and it is a meta, just a local one, i also stated local as i have been discussing with duke that he cannont speak for the whole world when only his area or "meta" that he has first hand experiance with.

To dukes point, No meta is this
Adaptation to a specific gaming environment[edit]
Another game-related use of Metagaming refers to operating on knowledge of the current strategic trends within a game. This usage is common in games that have large, organized play systems or tournament circuits and which feature customized decks of cards, sets of miniatures or other playing pieces for each player. Some examples of this kind of environment are tournament scenes for card games like Magic: The Gathering, or tabletop war-gaming such as Warhammer 40,000 or Flames of War.
Such metagaming could include compiling lists of what race or army choices are being used in a specific region or tournament scene, and tailoring your own army to fight the majority units, for example, knowing that Space Marine variant armies are the largest group of potential opponents, and modifying your own army with equipment which counters the strength of that majority force, or preys upon that majority group's weakness. By doing so, the player is metagaming, as they are attempting to improve their chances for victory by using information outside what will actually take place in a match.

To which my statement is covers, just for emphasis

Such metagaming could include compiling lists of what race or army choices are being used in a specific region

So Local, Regional and international Metas do exist, juist because a book is designed a certain way does not mean all the players actually play it that way, so this "Meta means the game as a whole. WoC meta is melee and no ranged."
whilst accurate to a point, is not necessarily true, they are melee because they lack ranged attacks, but remember when people used to spam hellcannons and run them at you..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But i think im done with trying to reason with Duke, he clearly doesnt like dwarfs because of some bias or other.

Kinsarth just seems like he is trolling.

My apologies everyone else on this thread for derailing it, i will step back and let the OP get back on track

 Formosa wrote:

Did you guys not read the definition.. like at all?

Scissors are not better in the 'meta' of RPS because you think no one throws rocks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
Kinsarth just seems like he is trolling.

Spelling.

Details matter.
The personal bit, I leave on you.

True kirsanth one is your name one isn't, I admit I.can't spell, can you admit you can't read? Because your analogy doesn't work at all, by showing the definition I have shown that I Meta in the right context, not that "scissors are better than rocks" or whatever.

Now where your analogy does work, if everyone is going rock in my area of the UK and in another I go to its scissors, then I adjust to paper or rock respectively, I am playing the meta game.

To summarise, I have shown that I used "meta" in context, that local metas do exist thus disproving dukes and your assertions that there is no such thing as a local meta and "not sure if means what you think it means"

If TK could go, lol, and make ALL your war machines disabled on a 2+, you would not have fun

yeah that is what I based tests do to dwarfs and they would be doing it a lot more offten, if it weren't for dwarfs protection.


Anyway . Runes are in . Bombers and Flying steam cannons are in , Uber melee Ironbreakers are in , but I have no idea how anyone expects dwarf players to get them in to melee . Interesting thing slayers no longer have the size limitation they had before , although they still die to range which is sad.

Makumba wrote:

yeah that is what I based tests do to dwarfs and they would be doing it a lot more offten, if it weren't for dwarfs protection.

No, because you can only ever affect 1 unit not an entire multiple phases. And the same OMG init that dwarfs have is shared by Lizardmen, Ogres, Orcs, TK, VC off the top of my head. And they don't have those dwarf benefits to shut it down. If Ogres could trade no magic in the game and give up their slaughtermaster they would in a second, because then it would be just people get pounded by Ogres and ironblasters.

 DukeRustfield wrote:

Makumba wrote:

yeah that is what I based tests do to dwarfs and they would be doing it a lot more offten, if it weren't for dwarfs protection.

No, because you can only ever affect 1 unit not an entire multiple phases. And the same OMG init that dwarfs have is shared by Lizardmen, Ogres, Orcs, TK, VC off the top of my head. And they don't have those dwarf benefits to shut it down. If Ogres could trade no magic in the game and give up their slaughtermaster they would in a second, because then it would be just people get pounded by Ogres and ironblasters.

But there is a big difference here. While that particular spell may only affect one Dwarf unit, Dwarfs are so expensive points wise, and so few model wise that even one unit dying to that spell can and often does mean game over for Dwarfs, no matter which unit it hits.

Compared to Empire, or any other army, that happen to have plenty of other units to help keep the battle flowing, that is a pretty significant blow to a Dwarf army.

When you have ten units or fifteen units and one dies, it really doesn't tend to be a big deal, but if all you have is four or six, that changes things. Now you can't cover flanks, or have enough units left to affect the game. That is the reason Dwarf anti magic has been so powerful over the years. Gw IS fully aware of what damage a spell like that can do to dwarfs.

Wow there is a lot in this thread that's a big waste of space and time getting through.

I like dwarfs cause there tough, hairy alco's who are good at working a forge. I love the rune system and hope it stays. I have never thought its broken since when the current book came out +1S cost the same as +1S magic weapon so no problem there. Always had restrictions involved so no problem having restrictions to try make things fair now either just please GW dont get rid of them.

I hope the rumours of better parry saves are true to make us as tough as we should be. I have no problem with the damage output just that they were sooo not tough enough.

I hope slayers just outright kill all the bigger beasties out there and maybe get a special save against monsters like Vs monstrous creature\cavalry whatever has 4+ ward. Shooting them or sticking them up against a lot of little guys should deal with them but beasties should really fear them.

Unit of copters anyone? Ride of the valkyries maybe?

And they don't have those dwarf benefits to shut it down

unless it is cast with IF and then it works just fine no matter what the dwarf players does , buys etc.
ogers have the rhino gun and magic .
orcs make an even better gunline then dwarfs because their machines are cheaper and while more random , one can have more of them .
empire has guns and magic
skaven have uber machines and good magic etc

Machines and magic protection are not just dwarf fluff , they are also their MC cavalery , their fast moving units , their redirectors etc.
If the game would look like this that other armies would have magic or machines , and dwarfs would have everything other armies have only stoped magic and had powerful machines , then yes it It might be unbalanced , but it is not the case . Dwarf are a slow army , that lacks type of units and is unable to play the manuver game all other armies can . Without shuting down magic and powerful machines , they wouldn't be worth playing.

Ok, I've been staying hands off here hoping that this bickering would die out on its own. I really don't feel like giving one of my long speeches right now so here's the deal. The issue of Dearves being a static force is a very valid discussion topic in a thread about the new army book (which should drop tomorrow), as it relates to something we would like to change or stay the same. However, if y'all continue to derail this thread on topics of Dwarves list building and stage presence on the tournament scene and how "boring" they may or may not be; information that will, again, be obsolete tomorrow. I will politely ask a Mod to lock this thread, I will make a new one that is very specific to the new models and expectations for them, and I will invite you to start your thread of general Dwarven angst. Now do we all agree to play nice from now on?

well 1 week left of release, we know of iron breakers/new gunners. But any chance Gw was clever this time? Any chance, as a whisper... Dwarfs would get some sort of Bear or Ram riders? Clockwork MC golem, even a Monster Golem or some kind?

...Prob not, but heres hoping.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
But there is a big difference here. While that particular spell may only affect one Dwarf unit, Dwarfs are so expensive points wise, and so few model wise that even one unit dying to that spell can and often does mean game over for Dwarfs, no matter which unit it hits.

Less expensive than Lizardmen/Ogres who have the same issues. And Wizards are an optional unit, you know. Dwarfs always have +dispel. There's lizardmen+ogre lists on the first page of this forum that don't have any big casters. And they're probably inferior because of that.

FullFatMayo wrote:
Duke you seem to be very anti anything Dwarf. I have played Dwarf's for about 7 years and although I don't win a great deal I have a lot of fun. Why do you not like the rune system or how Dwarf magic phases go. All you would be doing by giving Dwarf's a magic phase would be, to keep it balanced, reduce there ability to stop magic which turns them into every other army. Why is that useful. I for the sake of an example I could not like playing Ogres because I theoretically think they have too many wounds. Therefore I think in the next book for Ogres they should have 3 times less wounds but cost 3 times less. What would that achieve?

Also why not a steam tank type thing, Empire has them and Dwarf's are meant to be more technologically advanced than them so it makes sense.

Sorry if I sound like I am having a go but I am really just annoyed that people get annoyed about things like Dwarf's which are really not that powerful and accuse them of being broken/out of place so should be taken out completely because they are in fact not broken but are boring to play against. You have any idea how infuriating it is when 1 irresistible force roll on a certain spell can obliterate a large portion of your army even when you are supposedly the best at stopping magic?

I agree mate. Dwarfs have very limited movement, no magic what-so-ever, and although they aren't as expensive as the High Elves and such, they are usually outnumbered by most opponents they will play against. People hate Dwarfs due to the fact that they are an Army that you need to change tactics in order to fight against them, which can be frustrating because a good Dwarf player will utilize the terrain and his placement to the best effect. Add that the whole army is T4 minimum, they are an army you cant move by shooting and due to there resistance to Magic, they can be a pain to shift by spells so the opponent is forced to come to them. Dwarfs are unique, but thats what makes them a strong army, as they are an Army built around strong blocks of Infantry, supported by strong War-Machines/Missile Troops and Magic Defense, which is my type of Army as I feel Dwarfs have some of the best infantry in the game . Although many people like to use them as a sit-back-and-wait-army, I have attacked opponents many times with my Dwarfs when I played them, and it actually proved effective, and Dwarfs I think have more options now to be aggressive, especially with the Squadron of Gyropcopters and the fact certain Dwarf units can actually gain +1 strength when they charge if the rumors are true, so maybe that might give Dwarf players options to assault with them. As on the Ogre comment, they need the extra wounds as they are an Army that is always outnumbered and they have little to no armor, so yes they are worth there points lol.

That being said, all I am hoping for is that the Dwarfs remain the same as they are, as they are a unique army that throw something different compared to all of the other lists out there, and though I expect the usual changes such as points and new charters and units, I believe that what makes the Dwarfs a Dwarf army should remain. But I do expect shooting to change a bit, as they want this to be more of a CC game, but I don't think they will effect Dwarfs too much on that end as it is one of the Dwarfs strengths and what makes them more effective in this edition. No news of any Bear or Ram riders, as to be frank I can't see anything the Dwarfs would ride to fit there fluff, but they are getting a squadron of Gyrocopters so that's pretty cool in my opinion. Can't wait for the new Dwarf's Book to come out as I am excited to see what they can do.

By the looks of this release, I might have to quit the hobby. If dwarves don't change, and become the fotm, there is literally no reason to play anymore.

That being said, I'm going to pick up the book, just to flick through it. And burn it, if they don't change the laser template abilities.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
By the looks of this release, I might have to quit the hobby. If dwarves don't change, and become the fotm, there is literally no reason to play anymore.

That being said, I'm going to pick up the book, just to flick through it. And burn it, if they don't change the laser template abilities.

Wow someone is overreacting lol. Really dude, what is so bad about the Dwarfs? There War-Machines are no different then being able to use spells such as the Purple Sun to wipe out units in other armies. Hate to say it but there is no major difference between them.

There's a huge difference. A misfire almost always does nothing. And rare. Your resistance to cannons is either regen/ward which are both almost always capped at 4+, terrain, which is random, or to simply pray. Anyone in the game can dispel. If you have no Wizards. If you're a Khorne army who hates all things magic, you can still dispel.

To cast Purple Sun a Lord caster has to throw 4 dice to have a better than 50% chance of success (3 is 50, 4 is like 83). But then you have a 11.5% chance of miscast. 4 dice is on average more than half your PD on any turn. But you still have to beat the enemy dispel, who is going to have a lord dispeller, and have close to the same dice.

If you have 6 war machines, you fire 6 times. Your chance of misfire doesn't increase with each subsequent one. The target's ward save doesn't increase with each one. No one is going to cast 6 purple suns. It's really rare to get off multiple 6 spells. But it's not really rare to fire all your war machines multiple times.

I'm hopeful dwarfs will be fun. The gyrobomber thing seems a little cartoonish. Like it's a Lego toy. Or worse, a World of Warcraft model. And I don't know what it is with Big Hats in the world of WHFB. I swear there is some deviant biology going on where every creature on the planet has double vertebrae and super strong neck muscles. That's the only way they could support all the helmets they wear.

 Rommel44 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
By the looks of this release, I might have to quit the hobby. If dwarves don't change, and become the fotm, there is literally no reason to play anymore.

That being said, I'm going to pick up the book, just to flick through it. And burn it, if they don't change the laser template abilities.

Wow someone is overreacting lol. Really dude, what is so bad about the Dwarfs? There War-Machines are no different then being able to use spells such as the Purple Sun to wipe out units in other armies. Hate to say it but there is no major difference between them.

It's not an overreaction. Dwarf war machines are infinitely worse than super spells. The spells affect a percentage of an army. I've had my VC purple sun'd and I still went on to do well. Dwarf war machines affect an ENTIRE army.

The general consensus around here is that one dwarf game in every 4/5 events is too much. Let alone them being the fotm.

Well no one forces you to play an army that crumbles when their Heros/lords get cannon sniped . Imagine dwarfs had to play last two editions without good machines . No magic , slow and no way to force your opponent to come to you . You could just sit at safe 19" away from them and barrage them with spells while your fast/range units kill of the gun crews.

To cast Purple Sun a Lord caster has to throw 4 dice to have a better than 50% chance of success (3 is 50, 4 is like 83). But then you have a 11.5% chance of miscast. 4 dice is on average more than half your PD on any turn. But you still have to beat the enemy dispel, who is going to have a lord dispeller, and have close to the same dice.

If you have 6 war machines, you fire 6 times. Your chance of misfire doesn't increase with each subsequent one. The target's ward save doesn't increase with each one. No one is going to cast 6 purple suns. It's really rare to get off multiple 6 spells. But it's not really rare to fire all your war machines multiple times.

only dwarfs kill stuff with machines . other armies kill stuff with machines and magic and in melee . Dwarf melee is limited to , lets hope those dudes don't kill too many before we actualy get to strike .

Although many people like to use them as a sit-back-and-wait-army, I have attacked opponents many times with my Dwarfs when I played them, and it actually proved effective, and Dwarfs I think have more options now to be aggressive, especially with the Squadron of Gyropcopters and the fact certain Dwarf units can actually gain +1 strength when they charge if the rumors are true, so maybe that might give Dwarf players options to assault with them.

when your the slowest moving army in the game with ,0 redirect units , while other armies can run more then a few , how do you charge stuff? When I started playing dwarfs I tried to charge too , that always ended with me being kited with 2-3 units of ravers , eagles or something else that is fast and getting charged in the sides or suddenly ending up with my back side turned to half the opposing army and in a forest.

Well no one forces you to play an army that crumbles when their Heros/lords get cannon sniped .

What a nonsense thing to say. Basically, "play another army because ours is poorly designed." VC/TK/DoC all suffer from it. So no one should play those armies because Dwarf meta is perfect.

Speed isn't a huge deal it was. You're an inch slower than other slow races. Or 25% on normal move. On the charge you're about 10% slower. Big deal.

Dwarf melee is fine. It was maybe off by a point, but not like it needed a total rewrite. And I'm sure there won't be one. It will likely be adjusted...a point or so.

Makumba wrote:
Well no one forces you to play an army that crumbles when their Heros/lords get cannon sniped . Imagine dwarfs had to play last two editions without good machines . No magic , slow and no way to force your opponent to come to you . You could just sit at safe 19" away from them and barrage them with spells while your fast/range units kill of the gun crews.

To cast Purple Sun a Lord caster has to throw 4 dice to have a better than 50% chance of success (3 is 50, 4 is like 83). But then you have a 11.5% chance of miscast. 4 dice is on average more than half your PD on any turn. But you still have to beat the enemy dispel, who is going to have a lord dispeller, and have close to the same dice.

If you have 6 war machines, you fire 6 times. Your chance of misfire doesn't increase with each subsequent one. The target's ward save doesn't increase with each one. No one is going to cast 6 purple suns. It's really rare to get off multiple 6 spells. But it's not really rare to fire all your war machines multiple times.

only dwarfs kill stuff with machines . other armies kill stuff with machines and magic and in melee . Dwarf melee is limited to , lets hope those dudes don't kill too many before we actualy get to strike .

Although many people like to use them as a sit-back-and-wait-army, I have attacked opponents many times with my Dwarfs when I played them, and it actually proved effective, and Dwarfs I think have more options now to be aggressive, especially with the Squadron of Gyropcopters and the fact certain Dwarf units can actually gain +1 strength when they charge if the rumors are true, so maybe that might give Dwarf players options to assault with them.

when your the slowest moving army in the game with ,0 redirect units , while other armies can run more then a few , how do you charge stuff? When I started playing dwarfs I tried to charge too , that always ended with me being kited with 2-3 units of ravers , eagles or something else that is fast and getting charged in the sides or suddenly ending up with my back side turned to half the opposing army and in a forest.

So what you're saying is, "Don't play an interesting army, that is well balanced, and fun to play, because dwarves are the least well written book in warhammer and rely on a single trick to do well?" Remind me to never play against you.

I wanted to talk about organ guns apparently having to roll to hit, but there is clearly no intelligent conversation going on in here. I haven't read one thing in the last 4 pages that wasn't just grown man-children arguing. Its sad.

I've read the new Organ Gun is essentially a 2 artillery dice Hellblaster, so yes, rolls to hit with BS 3, shots = sum of 2 Artillery dice, resolved at Str 5 Armour piercing.

However, I've also heard it you can add an engineer for BS 4, and a rune of +1 to hit, which would make it quite nasty.

The special character Dwarf Engineer guy makes it quite bananas too.

Zoned wrote:
I've read the new Organ Gun is essentially a 2 artillery dice Hellblaster, so yes, rolls to hit with BS 3, shots = sum of 2 Artillery dice, resolved at Str 5 Armour piercing.

However, I've also heard it you can add an engineer for BS 4, and a rune of +1 to hit, which would make it quite nasty.

The special character Dwarf Engineer guy makes it quite bananas too.

That seems cool. I only field one and I don't think this will change that, but it makes me want to get an engineer. I always thought it was kinda unfair I could just slam down ten hits automatically, that seems a lot more balanced.

Yeah, auto-hitting is a bit weird in Fantasy shooting so I'm glad they are phasing it out. The version does seem quite balanced.

Other rumours I've heard:

army wide +1 parry when getting charged.
Ironbreakers have 5+ parry all the time.
Gyrocopter only 80pts and has a constant Str 3 Breath Weapon (not once per game.)
Flamebreakers variant are essentially Ironbreakers without shields, and their gun is range 18:, Str 5, quick to fire, flaming, and they have a 2+ ward vs flaming attacks.

I almost wish the Gyrocopters were really bad because I dont like the look of them, but I kinda get what they are going for. I was gonna buy some more cannons, though those flamebreakers seem like something I'd want to play around with. I wish they would have released the book week one. The waiting is killing me.