Astra Militrum and 7th changes

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**Leth**

Well with ap 3 units making a partial comeback having a highly mobile threat for guys trying to get into your deployment zone that ignores cover is not bad. Especially now that the vendetta is not demanding the slots like it used to. Have enough chassis on the table and they will probably live for awhile.

**Happygrunt**

Mr.Omega wrote:
I've given up on Manticores, 170 is way too expensive for something that a third of the time puts out a garbage amount of firepower and only really justifies its cost if you roll 3 pie plates. I played with Lootas just the other day with my Orks, and for two turns I rolled 1 shot each, which arguably in effect lost me the game as my 200~ unit did jack in the critical turns of the game, and then died to a Wraithknight over several turns.

The fact its BS3 and probably making the most of barrage just hurts it more.

The big killer though is that a full squadron of 3 Wyverns (25 pts more), with more or less triple the survivability and given your luck isn't terrible or you make a mistake, a guaranteed 12 mini-pie plates that have far greater accuracy (TL) and in practice do far, far more damage, only losing out on pitiful last-ditch hull-point shaving and denying FNP. Honestly, though? The Wyverns more than compensate.

I would love to run a squadron of two wryvens, but my case and my budget don't have room for them.

Apparently the local scene here is terrified of manticores, and I happen to have one sitting around that hasn't seen much use, so I will be running it through its paces in the next couple of weeks.

**eluxir**

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Well, the Bane wolf doesn't have torrent, it acts as a standard template weapon (so from the muzle of the Bane wolf's canon), which really negates any adventage his wounds-on-2s-with-AP3 weapon has.

I should have specified. When I mentioned the torrent rule I was referring to the inferno cannon. At AP4 I want to field that against crons and test drive the chem cannon on some space marines.

Another question, my next campaign match is against tyranids... What level of AP weapons are going to do the most damage across the board (without needing AP1 or AP2 for cracking vehicles/buildings)?

**Inquisitor Jex**

AP6; most 'nids are 6+, with the warriors being 4+ and the big ones being 3+.

i would go with eradicators, to negate the venomtrope's cover ability, flamers, but do not forget low AP wepaons; if you get rid of the big ones, the small ones loose synapse

**Desubot**

Without straight tailoring?

AS per above the best you needa do is 3+

**tankboy145**

eluxir wrote:
Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Well, the Bane wolf doesn't have torrent, it acts as a standard template weapon (so from the muzle of the Bane wolf's canon), which really negates any adventage his wounds-on-2s-with-AP3 weapon has.

I should have specified. When I mentioned the torrent rule I was referring to the inferno cannon. At AP4 I want to field that against crons and test drive the chem cannon on some space marines.

Another question, my next campaign match is against tyranids... What level of AP weapons are going to do the most damage across the board (without needing AP1 or AP2 for cracking vehicles/buildings)?

If you take the chem cannon against a full squad of marines there will be guys living and they will assault back and their krak grenades will destroy your vehicle. I have learned from experience. Most vehicles that require you to get close to work usually have 1 turn to do anything and then are dead. I am not a fan of the hell hound variant now that all the russ variants got cheaper and have much better armor and most armies can't deal with av14 from a distance.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

eluxir wrote:
tankboy145 wrote:
It may I haven't had my book on me to check it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yea they also get counter attack, fear, and fearless.

Dizzam. I would love to give this formation a shot. Mind filling me in on the rest of the details?

Happygrunt wrote:
So played a game of 7th today. 1500 points of mechanized IG goodness vs a 1500 point Farsight bomb.

I learned a few interesting things, chief of which is misfortune DESTROYS units. Turns out that, once the farsight bomb has every hit allocated towards it have rending it folds fast (rending lasguns are silly). I also learned how important carapace armor is. Having BS4 vets shrugging of small arms fire to deliver accurate and needed firepower helped me to turn back several tau units that got too close.

I ended up losing 10/9 on tactical objectives (if the game had ended turn 5 I won, but I lost my momentum). I will be experimenting with manticores in my next game, but I am still finding IG to be a very enjoyable army to play with.

Sorry to hear about your loss, but you are damn right about misfortune. When I field my psykers I always roll on Divination. Forewarning and Misfortune always help if I can get them and obviously Prescience is great. Also, I fielded a manticore in my match against necrons last week. Was expecting him to bring multiple units of 10-20 warriors and he didn't bring anything of the sort. Was still able to damage some of his vehicles by striping HPs, but it didn't do as much damage as I was hoping. Still... Ordnance D3 at S10 can ruin hordes so I'll be bringing it again despite it's recent lackluster performance.

From what I'm aware the formation requires a platoon command squad and 2 squads of bullygyrns each bullygyrns squad has to have at least 5 models. I don't try the formation because of this as it would be very expensive getting 10 of those guys lol.

**spunkybass**

I've had a few 7th ed games with my IG, pretty much did all the maelstrom missions. Most of them with my horde IG (100+ infantry, 2 priests, commissar, 1 vendetta, 1 hellhound, 2 sentinels, 4 Russ in 2 squadrons), and they do extremely well, winning 5 games in a row against several different armies. My last game was with my veteran AirCav army against Eldar, in which the IG lost. It seems to me that IG behaves very much the same fundamentally tactically since 3rd ed, only the details of how each unit is used, and how useful each unit is that changes. Still loving 'em. In fact. I'm starting yet another new IG army in a couple of months

**BlaxicanX**

Quick question, anyone know if Militarum Tempestus command squads (from their book, not from the IG codex) get access to the AM orders in addition to their Scion orders?

**obsidiankatana**

BlaxicanX wrote:
Quick question, anyone know if Militarum Tempestus command squads (from their book, not from the IG codex) get access to the AM orders in addition to their Scion orders?

They do not.

**TheSilo**

spunkybass wrote:
My last game was with my veteran AirCav army against Eldar, in which the IG lost.

The dependent clause in that sentence is utterly redundant.

You played against Eldar, ergo, you lost.

**BlaxicanX**

obsidiankatana wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
Quick question, anyone know if Militarum Tempestus command squads (from their book, not from the IG codex) get access to the AM orders in addition to their Scion orders?

They do not.

Soul crushing.

No 30 twin-linked hot-shot hits for me, I guess.

**obsidiankatana**

BlaxicanX wrote:

No 30 twin-linked hot-shot hits for me, I guess.

Cover ignoring, rending hotshots would have been lovely.

**spunkybass**

TheSilo wrote:
The dependent clause in that sentence is utterly redundant.

You played against Eldar, ergo, you lost.

Actually, my horde IG does very well against Eldar. 2 of the 5 wins were against different Eldar armies. The AirCav has always been difficult to use anyways. But I take your point. I've got a couple of Eldar armies too

**Banelord300**

Is HF still the way to go chimeras or is HB better now?

**Happygrunt**

Banelord300 wrote:
Is HF still the way to go chimeras or is HB better now?

I was under the impression that Multi-laser/ Heavy flamer was always the way to go.

**eluxir**

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
AP6; most 'nids are 6+, with the warriors being 4+ and the big ones being 3+.

i would go with eradicators, to negate the venomtrope's cover ability, flamers, but do not forget low AP wepaons; if you get rid of the big ones, the small ones loose synapse

thank you, sir. that helps a lot!

tankboy145 wrote:
If you take the chem cannon against a full squad of marines there will be guys living and they will assault back and their krak grenades will destroy your vehicle. I have learned from experience. Most vehicles that require you to get close to work usually have 1 turn to do anything and then are dead. I am not a fan of the hell hound variant now that all the russ variants got cheaper and have much better armor and most armies can't deal with av14 from a distance.

good point. my close combat counters are where i need improvement and flamers in my PCS always save the day. figured one of the hellhounds could do the same.

tankboy145 wrote:
From what I'm aware the formation requires a platoon command squad and 2 squads of bullygyrns each bullygyrns squad has to have at least 5 models. I don't try the formation because of this as it would be very expensive getting 10 of those guys lol.

haha regardless.. i want to run that so bad! just for fun if anything.

**Inquisitor Jex**

Happygrunt wrote:
Banelord300 wrote:
Is HF still the way to go chimeras or is HB better now?

I was under the impression that Multi-laser/ Heavy flamer was always the way to go.

Same here, I always go ML/HF; of course, if you're facing shooty armies, then the HB might be the better choice.

**eluxir**

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Happygrunt wrote:
Banelord300 wrote:
Is HF still the way to go chimeras or is HB better now?

I was under the impression that Multi-laser/ Heavy flamer was always the way to go.

Same here, I always go ML/HF; of course, if you're facing shooty armies, then the HB might be the better choice.

why the ML over the HB? My most recent matches have been against necrons so AP4 on the HB & HF have been a no brainer. If I wasn't playin' crons it would be the HF if I thought the unit would end up getting close, but it would still be the HB over the ML for me. At the same range and only one point better in strength, I don't see how the ML would be the one to pick. Am I missing something here?! I could see it against tyranids where most units have a 6+ armor save... Is S6 the main reason for taking the ML over the HB?

**Happygrunt**

eluxir wrote:
Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Happygrunt wrote:
Banelord300 wrote:
Is HF still the way to go chimeras or is HB better now?

I was under the impression that Multi-laser/ Heavy flamer was always the way to go.

Same here, I always go ML/HF; of course, if you're facing shooty armies, then the HB might be the better choice.

why the ML over the HB? My most recent matches have been against necrons so AP4 on the HB & HF have been a no brainer. If I wasn't playin' crons it would be the HF if I thought the unit would end up getting close, but it would still be the HB over the ML for me. At the same range and only one point better in strength, I don't see how the ML would be the one to pick. Am I missing something here?! I could see it against tyranids where most units have a 6+ armor save... Is S6 the main reason for taking the ML over the HB?

The ML is a better choice because you will be wounding most things on a 2+ AND you can go hunt light vehicles as necessary. The ML is more versatile than the HB, and seeing as you are BS3, the chance to wound with your three shots being better is a good trade from AP4. The hull HF is a nice back up weapon and, if you are like me and running a mech list, an excellent "SURPRISE!" when enemy forces get a little too close.

**eluxir**

Happygrunt wrote:
The ML is a better choice because you will be wounding most things on a 2+ AND you can go hunt light vehicles as necessary. The ML is more versatile than the HB, and seeing as you are BS3, the chance to wound with your three shots being better is a good trade from AP4. The hull HF is a nice back up weapon and, if you are like me and running a mech list, an excellent "SURPRISE!" when enemy forces get a little too close.

Totally agreed on the surprise factor of the HF. I don't field a PCS without one and take them on most of my vehicles.

But I see your point on the ML... Wasn't thinking about the full impact of S6 over S5. You've given me some great points to think about so I appreciate the feedback!

Now on to another question: What are your favorite troops/characters/vehicles to field when you are crafting a list for maximum mobility?

**More Dakka**

Trying to round out my armor list with some long range high strength direct fire. Are Exterminators the way to go?

I've got a Punisher and Executioner in the list so far, a couple of Wyverns to rain down on infantry.

I also have my eye on the Eradicators because that price is hard to beat and more cover ignoring blasts is hard to pass up.

**Desubot**

Well its hard to do wrong with a vanquisher.

its still st 8 ap 2 and will punk a terminator or pen a vehicle if it hits.

Add that with a las cannon hull and you should at least hit with one high strength low ap direct hit. for relatively cheap.

**Frankenberry**

I've been coupling Exterminators and Eradicators together along with Eradicators and Punishers, it's comical to see the effects. Cover ignoring large blast makes guys hiding in terrain run, Punisher cannon or Exterminator takes them out in the open.

I've seen a lot less Demolisher spam, given the loss of Lumbering Behemoth, anyone still running them to any successful degree?

**Desubot**

I cant justify them at that 170 price alone.

Honestly would rather pay the extra 30 and get a tactical squad and vindicator double caded in.

**Frankenberry**

I use to run them quite a bit in 5th, because why not? But I've found that Eradicators have taken their spot in my lists.

Honestly the Vindi is just as bad, but I see your point.

**tankboy145**

I've been running eradicators in most of my lists. Adding heavy bolter sponsons with the hull heavy bolter just adds a lot of dakka that put the hurt on infantry. Pop a transport and use the eradicator to clean up the infantry. Even tho it's still ap4 it still does a great job against marines. I think someone did the math and it turns out by points it's better than the battle tank.

Now I've got a question for everyone. I normally take my command vanquisher and add MM sponsons to it to add anti tank or I will even add plasma sponsons so it could damage groups of marines or if no big targets could fire at infantry and do a couple more wounds. Is it worth the points to add MM or PC sponsons? Or do you think it's better to run it with just a lascannon on the hull??? What's your preferences?

**obsidiankatana**

That'd depend on the role you look for the tank to fill. Vanquisher + Lascannon at BS4 is a tank-hunter exclusively, and for most armies that means you need 2-3 armored kills to make its points back. Not counting, of course, the mandatory squadmate. Adding sponsons (point values escape me, book is in the car) opens up more targets for the cost, but does it make it easier for the tank to make its value back? Questions you need to consider.

**Fenris-77**

HB sponsons are cheap at 20pts and will make back their cost against infantry without too much trouble. The sticky bit is trying to figure out how often you'll need to do that given your meta. Plus the obvious questions about what else you could be doing with those 20 points. I tend to treat them like wargear and leave them until the list is nearly done to seriously consider.

Also, if things get sticky, I'd probably rather have the MM sponsons on the Commander since its the same cost as HBs.

On a related note, has anyone had any success spamming tank commanders? I managed to shoehorn Pask plus two TCs into 1850, which I think is about the limit unless you go unbound. The list is basically Pask, TC, TC, four other Russes and bubble wrap. The exact variants is still something I'm playing with, but I'd love hear from anyone who's tried this out against semi-serious competition.

**martin74**

I have been running double punisher (w/ heavy bolters all around) with good success, as either a tank commander or heavy support slot.

As far as the Manticore, I will still use them. They do two things. 1. Drop pie plates better than most units and don't require line of sight. Or, 2. Become a priority target for my opponent. Either way they are not the needed to win unit in my list.

**tankboy145**

Since russes got cheaper the only artillery unit I use from time to time is the wyverns. I think the manticore just got too expensive for me.