ISIS

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**SirSertile**

Sasori wrote:
A groundwar with ISIS is an inevitability at this point.

I've already heard that droves of contractors are being hired and sent over to Iraq.

ISIS is not nearly as powerful as the US, but they released a statistic of about 30,000 troops. They won't be nearly as well armed, but they will use a lot of car/suicide bombs. That's going to really counter the US's very strong ground military.

**EmilCrane**

It seem like ISIS actually wants to play the conventional war game. They're advancing and taking territory, I think they've even got tanks.

If they continue on that route and it does come to a ground war with the West it will be their funeral.

**Hordini**

EmilCrane wrote:
It seem like ISIS actually wants to play the conventional war game. They're advancing and taking territory, I think they've even got tanks.

If they continue on that route and it does come to a ground war with the West it will be their funeral.

I don't know if they have tanks or not, but judging from the videos on the news they definitely have heavy weapons, towed artillery, and armored vehicles like MRAPs. Many of which are probably already getting tagged by US aircraft, if videos like this are any indication:

Spoiler:

**Swastakowey**

It looked like they where just waiting for it to happen. They cleared the area and even had a camera set up to watch it ages in advance (video skips throughout).

I didnt have sound, so maybe I missed something.

**DarkTraveler777**

Damn... the accuracy of our munitions is scary impressive.

I have to admit I am surprised the cameraman survived the attack. He didn't seem to be that far from away the artillery piece that was hit.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Swastakowey wrote:
It looked like they where just waiting for it to happen. They cleared the area and even had a camera set up to watch it ages in advance (video skips throughout).

I didnt have sound, so maybe I missed something.

It did look staged, but perhaps ISIS were planning on filming the artillery in action when the air attack occurred. Just overall good timing on the pilot's part to nail them during one of their propaganda shoots.

**Swastakowey**

DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Damn... the accuracy of our munitions is scary impressive.

I have to admit I am surprised the cameraman survived the attack. He didn't seem to be that far from away the artillery piece that was hit.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Swastakowey wrote:
It looked like they where just waiting for it to happen. They cleared the area and even had a camera set up to watch it ages in advance (video skips throughout).

I didnt have sound, so maybe I missed something.

It did look staged, but perhaps ISIS were planning on filming the artillery in action when the air attack occurred. Just overall good timing on the pilot's part to nail them during one of their propaganda shoots.

Yea but while it was empty unmanned? It seemed busy before hand. I dont know. They can replace the men, not the gun I suppose. Well not as easily anyway. (I assume).

Scary how accurate it was. The power of aircraft when nothing is there to counter it is very scary.

**Grey Templar**

Yeah, but that accuracy has a price. tens of thousands of dollars a missile.

**Swastakowey**

Is that the initial cost, or the cost of deployment and the cost of launch including the flight and everything? Seems like it should cost a lot more than that.

Or does it get separated into different bits, the cost of the missile gets lumped into the cost of the attack?

I dont think my country has launched a missile or bomb of any kind in a while. Not sure how these costs are done. Interesting stuff.

**Grey Templar**

That would just be the missile itself, but the other things involved in shooting it are reusable at least.

Thats why we need railguns. Accuracy, range, and damage of a missile, but far cheaper.

**Hordini**

It's possible they figured out aircraft were in the area and got away from the gun because they didn't want to get annihilated along with it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
That would just be the missile itself, but the other things involved in shooting it are reusable at least.

Thats why we need railguns. Accuracy, range, and damage of a missile, but far cheaper.

With a railgun you need direct line of sight though. That's not necessarily the case for missiles.

**Swastakowey**

Grey Templar wrote:
That would just be the missile itself, but the other things involved in shooting it are reusable at least.

Thats why we need railguns. Accuracy, range, and damage of a missile, but far cheaper.

I would have thought it would be better t have both available. I cant imagine a rail gun doing what we just saw due to trajectory?

**Grey Templar**

Hordini wrote:
It's possible they figured out aircraft were in the area and got away from the gun because they didn't want to get annihilated along with it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
That would just be the missile itself, but the other things involved in shooting it are reusable at least.

Thats why we need railguns. Accuracy, range, and damage of a missile, but far cheaper.

With a railgun you need direct line of sight though. That's not necessarily the case for missiles.

Actually no.

The Naval Railgun is going to have a bombardment range of 400 miles. The projectile actually leaves the atmosphere for a short time.

**Hordini**

Grey Templar wrote:
Hordini wrote:
It's possible they figured out aircraft were in the area and got away from the gun because they didn't want to get annihilated along with it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
That would just be the missile itself, but the other things involved in shooting it are reusable at least.

Thats why we need railguns. Accuracy, range, and damage of a missile, but far cheaper.

With a railgun you need direct line of sight though. That's not necessarily the case for missiles.

Actually no.

The Naval Railgun is going to have a bombardment range of 400 miles. The projectile actually leaves the atmosphere for a short time.

Oh, so they're going to use it for indirect fire like artillery then? I guess that makes more sense. There could still be things that missiles can hit that a railgun 400 miles away might not be able to though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
There's also the issue that the with the railgun, you'll need an FO on the ground or in the air with eyes on target anyway (which you also need for CAS, I'm just saying the railgun won't eliminate that requirement).

**Grey Templar**

Missiles need observers too.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Hordini wrote:
EmilCrane wrote:
It seem like ISIS actually wants to play the conventional war game. They're advancing and taking territory, I think they've even got tanks.

If they continue on that route and it does come to a ground war with the West it will be their funeral.

I don't know if they have tanks or not, but judging from the videos on the news they definitely have heavy weapons, towed artillery, and armored vehicles like MRAPs. Many of which are probably already getting tagged by US aircraft, if videos like this are any indication:

Spoiler:

I never understand how videos like this get distributed. Why would a member of ISIS show one of their artillery pieces getting destroyed to the public?
Wouldn't they not want to show them getting harassed?

**Dreadclaw69**

EmilCrane wrote:
It seem like ISIS actually wants to play the conventional war game. They're advancing and taking territory, I think they've even got tanks.

If they continue on that route and it does come to a ground war with the West it will be their funeral.

Temporarily. They'll default back to guerrilla tactics

**EmilCrane**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
EmilCrane wrote:
It seem like ISIS actually wants to play the conventional war game. They're advancing and taking territory, I think they've even got tanks.

If they continue on that route and it does come to a ground war with the West it will be their funeral.

Temporarily. They'll default back to guerrilla tactics

But guerrilla tactics where? Currently they're invading a hostile country. You can't wage an insurgency in a hostile country.

**Dreadclaw69**

EmilCrane wrote:
But guerrilla tactics where? Currently they're invading a hostile country. You can't wage an insurgency in a hostile country.

Yes you can. Shelter among a sympathetic population and launch attacks from there. Currently ISIS also holds large areas of land, if they were to start losing pitched battles they would resort to typical guerrilla attacks on an advancing force (mortars, IEDs, etc.)

**Breotan**

I remember back during the Bush administration the anti-war chorus was about how the occupation of Iraq would create more terrorists. It seems now that the major push is happening since we've left. So, is this "Change we can believe in"?

Marc Young wrote:From gangsta rapper to Islamist militant

A German hip-hop artist joins the Islamic State, sparking fears of homegrown terror in his country

Spoiler:

An archive picture, dated June 20, 2005, shows the former rapper Deso Dogg (real name: Denis Cuspert) posing in Berlin, Germany. The Berlin Office for Protection of the Constitution has new insights about the German Islamist Cuspert in Syria.

As war in Syria and Iraq attracts a growing number of Muslim extremists from Europe, intelligence officials in Germany believe a former gangsta rapper has joined the inner circle of Islamists fighting there.

Denis Cuspert was once a modestly successful member of Germany's hip-hop scene going by the stage name Deso Dogg. Now he calls himself Abu Talha the German and is a top propagandist for the so-called Islamic State (IS) caliphate, which is blamed for several wartime atrocities.

His ascent into the upper IS ranks is raising concerns that such "homegrown" Islamists could embolden Muslim extremists in Germany or that they might one day return themselves to target the country for terrorism.

"Cuspert won't come back since there's an arrest warrant waiting for him," Elke Altmüller, a spokeswoman for Germany's Verfassungsschutz domestic intelligence agency, told Yahoo News. "But there's a danger he could incite others."

And as the cross-border conflict in Syria and Iraq continues to rage, it is luring hundreds of would-be jihadis from Europe, including radicalized converts like the ex-rapper. Although the German authorities have said they see no indications an attack is imminent, they are attempting to track fighters returning from the war zone.

Currently, there are an estimated 400 Muslim extremists from Germany in Syria, either directly engaging in fighting or otherwise supporting the Islamists. Altmüller said roughly 10 percent of them were German converts to Islam. According to intelligence reports, some 40 have been killed in the conflict.

That was almost the fate of the 38-year-old Cuspert after he was seriously injured in an airstrike by Syrian forces in September 2013. But he survived, and being wounded apparently helped him win respect among the extremists. He eventually swore allegiance in an online video this spring to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, who has since declared himself caliph of the repressive Islamic State.

Spoiler:

An archive picture dated May 5, 2012 shows Salafis praying in Bonn, Germany. Amongst them is former Berlin rapper Dennis Cuspert (2-L).

Born to a German mother and Ghanaian father, Cuspert grew up in a gritty Berlin neighborhood and got involved in petty crime and gangs while aspiring to become a rap star. He enjoyed some success, even touring in Germany with U.S. rapper DMX. His lyrics in his song "Who's Afraid of the Black Man" document his early disillusionment and violent tendencies:

Doing time in my skin like Tookie Williams in San Quentin/
No identity, where will this end?
In a white world full of hate and illusion/
The last option was only violence and emotion.

But he never managed to make it big rapping, and after a car accident he started to look to radical Islam for direction in life. Over the past four years, he abandoned his music career to become an Islamist poster boy in the German-speaking world, posting videos that encourage Muslims to join the caliphate's holy war.

"I was a sinner. I lived in sin before I turned to Islam. Surrounded by music, drugs, alcohol and women," he said in one recent propaganda video.

Another scene shows Cuspert hitting the head of a corpse with a rock at the site of a suspected IS massacre east of the Syrian city of Homs.

The Islamists clearly see the former rapper's potential in recruiting others in Germany, which has a thriving Salafist scene promulgating an especially dogmatic form of Sunni Islam. The Islamists clearly see the former rapper's potential in recruiting others in Germany.

After two policemen were stabbed during a Salafist protest in the city of Bonn in May 2012, Cuspert used his rap skills to glorify the attacker as "the German lion Murat K." in a poem. And despite renouncing his musical background, he regularly composes Islamic chants known as "anasheeds" in praise of jihad.

According to the German authorities, the man behind the only deadly Islamist attack in Germany, Arid Uka, watched a video of an anasheed by Cuspert before he shot dead two U.S. servicemen at Frankfurt Airport in 2011. Uka's Facebook account was also linked with Cuspert's profile on the social media website.

Spoiler:

Salafist preacher Pierre Vogel prays with supporters during a rally with aboout 300 participants in Hamburg, Germany, July 19, 2014.

Two other prominent German converts to Islam, Pierre Vogel and Sven Lau, have chosen to remain in Germany, but they also actively encourage the spread of their Islamist ideology.

"Vogel and Lau went on tour in Germany in 2014 to promote their cause," Altmüller told Yahoo News. "They might not directly tell people to go to Syria, but it's at those kinds of events where young men are approached by others."

She said converts to radical Islam were often especially fervent and fundamentalist.

"It doesn't necessarily mean they would be involved in an attack, but they help create the conditions for one," Altmüller said.

Vogel and Lau have both had run-ins with the law over the years. Lau was even briefly arrested at the beginning of the year for allegedly sponsoring terrorist activities, but was released for lack of evidence. Neither was available immediately for comment.

Vogel is a burly ex-boxer who officially renounces violence in the name of Islam, but he has often drawn scrutiny from the German authorities for his virulent rhetoric at Salafist rallies. He also publicly praised Cuspert back in 2010 for abandoning his music career, and appeared interested in whether prominent Muslim rappers in Germany could be encouraged to help proselytize their fans.

"Pierre Vogel preaches in German. He uses language that appeals to younger people," Prof. Mouhanad Khorchide, a reformist Islamic theologian at the University of Münster, told Yahoo News. "The ideology being conveyed is dangerous. I regularly receive death threats from Salafists."

And Vogel's contemporary, Lau, caused widespread outrage in Germany earlier this month after he organized patrols through the center of the city of Wuppertal by radical Muslims wearing orange warning vests emblazoned with "Sharia Police" on their backs.

Spoiler:

Salafist-preacher Pierre Vogel, seen on Saturday, June 7, 2014, in Freiburg.

Handing out flyers demanding the introduction of Islamic law known as the Sharia, Lau's troop reportedly tried to discourage young people from entering nightclubs and gambling halls. The calculated provocation worked, sparking stern responses from several German officials, including Chancellor Angela Merkel.

"That is absolutely out of order," she told German TV channel Sat.1. "Nobody is allowed to skulk into the role of the police. The state has a monopoly on the use of force."

Merkel's interior minister, Thomas de Maizière, also made clear the government's displeasure.

"The Sharia will not be tolerated on German soil," he told the Bild newspaper over the weekend.

Khorchide dismissed Lau's Sharia Police as a P.R. stunt, but warned of the growing influence of the Islamists using people like ex-rapper Cuspert.

"The Islamic State gives the losers of German society, those already susceptible to Islamist ideas, the chance to feel strong," the theologian said. "Anyone coming back from the war in Syria will be traumatized and full of hatred."

But as the rise of the repressive IS regime in Syria and Iraq emboldens extremists in Germany, it is also raising tensions with the country's mainstream Muslim community. Following six suspected arson attacks on mosques last month, moderate Muslim leaders have scheduled a demonstration for today against violence in the Middle East and intolerance in Germany.

"We are all afraid of violence, hatred and fanaticism. We have to confront this together," Aiman Mazyek, the chairman of the Central Council of Muslims in Germany, recently told the Berlin-based newspaper Der Tagesspiegel.

**Jihadin**

Idiots did not know how to set up a 198 and more likely reading the -10 manual to figure it out

**dogma**

Grey Templar wrote:

Thats why we need railguns. Accuracy, range, and damage of a missile, but far cheaper.

That's debatable, given how quickly railguns themselves succumb to heat-related wear and tear. Something which reduces the velocity and accuracy of each shot.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

I never understand how videos like this get distributed. Why would a member of ISIS show one of their artillery pieces getting destroyed to the public?
Wouldn't they not want to show them getting harassed?

Not if you're trying to paint your group as one which is resisting an evil oppressor.

**Hordini**

Hordini wrote:(which you also need for CAS, I'm just saying the railgun won't eliminate that requirement).

Grey Templar wrote:Missiles need observers too.

True, I noted that in my previous post.

**Grey Templar**

dogma wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:

Thats why we need railguns. Accuracy, range, and damage of a missile, but far cheaper.

That's debatable, given how quickly railguns themselves succumb to heat-related wear and tear. Something which reduces the velocity and accuracy of each shot.

I think spending only a few hundred bucks a round is better than tens of thousands. And they are working out the wearing problem. It should be worked down to a manageable level within a few years.

Another bonus to railguns is that the shot can't be shot down while a missile can.

**dogma**

Grey Templar wrote:

I think spending only a few hundred bucks a round is better than tens of thousands.

First, the present railgun rounds cost ~25K USD.

Second, the cost of the rounds should not be isolated from the cost of the weapon system. A better metric is cost per shot, where cost isn't necessarily monetary; replacing components and all that.

Third, unlike a missile, a railgun becomes less effective after every shot. That lack of predictability is a huge problem.

Grey Templar wrote:

And they are working out the wearing problem. It should be worked down to a manageable level within a few years.

By what means? Does the military intend to bend the laws of physics?

**AlmightyWalrus**

Plus, China has around 80% (IIRC) of the world's known Tungsten deposits. Becoming entirely dependant on a political rival for ammunition for your new superweapon might not be very clever.

**Experiment 626**

How about we show ISIS what a WWII carpet bombing re-enactment looks like? I'm sure we can build a much bigger firestorm nowadays than we managed 70 odd years ago.

**timetowaste85**

626: Because the governments are squeamish. Isis is in a position to screw up a lot for the world. Eggs are going to get cracked by trying to stop them. But the powers that be don't want to even break one. It's a tough call. Seriously difficult. But it's one that may be an example of "the needs of the many over the needs of the few", and somebody is going to have to make the call that causes them to not be able to look in the mirror for a few weeks. It's a tough call, but it's one they signed on for when they went into office.

**Ashiraya**

I don't like war. I don't like fighting. I am somewhat idealistic. I am, however, not a fool. I do not think ISIS will back down. I can see no other solution than war.

Religious fanatics are, in my opinion, one of the really troublesome things in this world. Few things can silence reason as well as zeal can.

Edit: typos

**Jihadin**

So as we train and arm up the Free Syrian Army....is Assad going to call a "time out" from fighting them? Free Syrian Army willing to commit to a two front war?

**Dreadclaw69**

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/23/world/middleeast/us-and-allies-hit-isis-targets-in-syria.html?_r=0
Looks like airstrikes have started. Remember the good old days when we were promised fewer foreign military adventures, and that if a vote for Romney was a vote to attack Syria