why are there no black people in 40k?

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**Mr Morden**

Wyzilla wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:

Shaudukar’s, fittingly, was the first casket to open. The lychguard was her friend from the time before biotransference. Armoured in thick plates of metal, spine overarched to shelter her head, Shaudukar was a fearsome sight. Poblaaur’s casket opened next, followed by ten more, until her lychguard surrounded her. They hung, crucified in the sleep of eons. Cables and circuits were attached all over their bodies, snaking through their metal bones. Green lights flickered around them, shining through the steam. The canoptek spyder behind her chattered and broadcast the frequency of awakening.

Shaudukar said nothing as her sentience resumed control of her body, as she shrugged off the Great Sleep. She reached for her weapons from behind her casket, arming herself with her warscythe and shield. No nonsense and no fuss, as she had been in life. Valnyr felt relief to see her unchanged by sixty million years of dormancy.Poblaaur kept his eyes dim, facing towards the wall. My mistress,’ Shaudukar said. She stared at her hands. Valnyr approached her, standing nearly uncomfortably close. For the status-obsessed necrons, where distance often indicated hierarchy and respect, it was an expression of great affection. ‘Shaudukar,’ Valnyr whispered the name. ‘I am glad you are awake.

Well then. I'm not certain of anything, but lesbian Necrons confirmed

Sounds good - well I am sure there will be some fan fiction ?

**Wyzilla**

Mr Morden wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:

Shaudukar’s, fittingly, was the first casket to open. The lychguard was her friend from the time before biotransference. Armoured in thick plates of metal, spine overarched to shelter her head, Shaudukar was a fearsome sight. Poblaaur’s casket opened next, followed by ten more, until her lychguard surrounded her. They hung, crucified in the sleep of eons. Cables and circuits were attached all over their bodies, snaking through their metal bones. Green lights flickered around them, shining through the steam. The canoptek spyder behind her chattered and broadcast the frequency of awakening.

Shaudukar said nothing as her sentience resumed control of her body, as she shrugged off the Great Sleep. She reached for her weapons from behind her casket, arming herself with her warscythe and shield. No nonsense and no fuss, as she had been in life. Valnyr felt relief to see her unchanged by sixty million years of dormancy.Poblaaur kept his eyes dim, facing towards the wall. My mistress,’ Shaudukar said. She stared at her hands. Valnyr approached her, standing nearly uncomfortably close. For the status-obsessed necrons, where distance often indicated hierarchy and respect, it was an expression of great affection. ‘Shaudukar,’ Valnyr whispered the name. ‘I am glad you are awake.

Well then. I'm not certain of anything, but lesbian Necrons confirmed

Sounds good - well I am sure there will be some fan fiction ?

Well if the cesspit of 4chan has anything you'd describe as a "job" in the traditional sense...

**scommy**

Frankly I feel a bit sad the long arm of Political Correctness has reached the 40k universe. Isn't part of the attraction of 40k and Fantasy stuff that its an escape from our everyday, real life worries and concerns?

Isnt anybody free to paint their models black or any other color they choose?

If you want to be genuinely "concerned" with racial issues why not ask GW why there are no Asian guys/gals? No Malays or Eskimos maybe?

If GW made models with distinctly ethnic features would you then chastise them for making racist caricatures?

Trying to slamdunk GW with the race card just seems meh - plus they have their bases safely covered with Salamanders - one of the main SM chapters are well known to have "skin as black as ebony" P56 SM codex.

**Psienesis**

"Black as ebony" doesn't make them Black (in the ethnic sense)... it make them Caucasians with black skin. They were, in fact, never intended to appear to be of African ethnicity. That was an artist's erroneous interpretation of instructions from the studio.

And if having a diverse cast of humans (both gender and ethnicities) in a humano-centric game set in the far future is the "long arm of political correctness", then bring on the long arm of political correctness.

**chromedog**

It's more a case of not actively thinking about it than deliberate omission.

The game was created by a bunch of white English public schoolboys. Who generally worked with other white english public schoolboys.

Midas and Medea Betancourt from Dan Abnett's stuff are both black.

**scommy**

True - black as ebony does not make them ethnically black. I just feel that GW are damned if they do and damned if they dont. The racist caricatures issue in molding models is so tricky for them.

Thinking about it tho, I must admit I could go for some more female units. I reckon the AM could do with a "Black Lotus" C&C Generals type unit or some special female detachment. And of course lets be honest - some other slightly more feminine units who are not nuns or freaky scary daemonettes could be interesting

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

scommy wrote:
Isn't part of the attraction of 40k and Fantasy stuff that its an escape from our everyday, real life worries and concerns?

Would it not be great if anyone could play 40k and Fantasy Battle without finding there the same annoyance and lack of representation/bad representation they find in their everyday, real life?
You do realize the aim is not to annoy people for no reason, right?

scommy wrote:
Trying to slamdunk GW with the race card just seems meh - plus they have their bases safely covered with Salamanders - one of the main SM chapters are well known to have "skin as black as ebony" P56 SM codex.

I assume that you did not bother with reading much of the thread before answering.

**Jaq Draco lives**

Salamanders Vulkan, asians are Scars. Thought that was obvious. Late to the party sure this has already been said.

**Psienesis**

scommy wrote:
True - black as ebony does not make them ethnically black. I just feel that GW are damned if they do and damned if they dont. The racist caricatures issue in molding models is so tricky for them.

Thinking about it tho, I must admit I could go for some more female units. I reckon the AM could do with a "Black Lotus" C&C Generals type unit or some special female detachment. And of course lets be honest - some other slightly more feminine units who are not nuns or freaky scary daemonettes could be interesting

Funny thing... they used to have them. The Xenan Free Legion being one. But I'm not even wanting an all-female IG set. Just a few female troops in the IG box. A female Commissar. A female Inquisitor.

Also, other model companies have done Black figurines for their product lines without them being racist caricatures. You don't need to make a model look like Mammy to be a Black character. Shoot, Ral Partha had a damn good Cleric with a two-handed maul in, like, 1989, who was Black and looked just fine, and that was a smaller scale than GW works with, with 25 years less technology.

Midas and Medea Betancourt from Dan Abnett's stuff are both black.

As noted throughout the thread, BL (and Relic, THQ, and basically every company that isn't GW with its fingers in the 40K pie...) have done far, far better with diversity of characters... if these people thought of it, though, why hasn't GW?

**tmo38**

The white scars chapter is Asian , and most people on Baal are a more Spanish tan , tau are blue, tyranids are rainbow, orks are green, I've seen some mixed race black Templar which is justified because they recruit from many different worlds, and most successor chapters of the raven guard are albino according to the book Deathwatch

**Psienesis**

Ehm... Spanish people are Caucasians. So are Arabs.... and most ethnic North Africans, for that matter.

ETA: And to build on that further, if you wanted to have, say, an IG Regiment that included "Latino" people, nothing is stopping you from giving them black hair and more-tan-than-usual skin. They don't have significantly-different physiology from, as we put it, White (Not Hispanic) people.

**scommy**

Hmm interesting stuff Psienesis - funny they had the Xenan Free Female legion then gave it up - did they actually have models or was it in the fluff?. I guess it all comes down to a business cost benefit analysis decision - boiling down to that most basic of all questions in business - "can we make money out if this?"

I would seriously go for females with my Valhallans, I can only find some images like this..
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=176661&d=1376991931

Certainly in the Ciaphas Cain books women feature prominently. Also the Russians (who Valhallans presumably are loosely modelled after) had loads of women fighting in WW2, especially as snipers, heavy weapons and anti aircraft gunners. A female Commissar would be the bomb!

**Furyou Miko**

There was only one model for a Xenan, she was part of the Last Chancers. Incidentally, they also consisted of;

- An American Indian (it's an innacurate enough description that the non-PC term fits)
- A hun with a fabulous moustache
- a female Catachan rocket trooper
- A British adventurer

and other...

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Colonel-Schaeffers-Last-Chancers

Apparently they're still available (or available again?) for the shockingly low price of £25 for the lot.

Also, in that excerpt, that was not only a female Necron, that was a female Lychguard with a shield-and-scythe.

Shield and scythe!

Tomorrow. I will have christmas money tomorrow. I can buy books again.

**The Home Nuggeteer**

I remember hearing somewhere that they didn't want to sculpt anyone other than white people as they were afraid that the sculpts might come off as stereotypical and racist. I cannot remember the source though. Seems like a logical reason.

**Selym**

total0 wrote:
Does anyone know what happened to the black people in 41st millennium? I know salamanders technically are black but not in the context i mean. All the models shown are all white and the only time I've come across black skinned models are in a racist fashion such as panal legion in the old imperial guard book and a guardsmen army based on a foreworld based around cotton picking where the sgts and high ranking people were all white

The actual answer is GW didn't really feel the need to add racial diversity to their minis. Being from a country with an overwhelming white majority, it didn't really occur to them to pain anything other than light skin tones, and then they got good at painting and photographing those colours, and didn't bother to change it.

Fluff-wise, skin diversity is a certainty, the Tallarn are likely candidates for darker skin tones.

**Furyou Miko**

Good at photography? Have you looked at White Dwarf in the last few years?!

Besides, Britain does not have an overwhelmingly white majority. Statistics in the east midlands actually put white British at being only 49% of the population.

**CREEEEEEEEED**

tmo38 wrote:
tyranids are rainbow

Totally, did you know they love glitter and ponies as well?

*searches for sarcasm font*
*italics will do*

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Furyou Miko wrote:

Besides, Britain does not have an overwhelmingly white majority. Statistics in the east midlands actually put white British at being only 49% of the population.

Yes the majority may not be British, but it is white. The statistics from the government say 3.3% black, pretty small.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_290558.pdf

(minor spelling edit)

**Backspacehacker**

Salamanders

/thread

**Psienesis**

^ Didn't read the thread.

**Orkzwuzmade4rokkn**

Yeap, there are black people, salamanders, I've seen an inquistor, etc. I believe one of the remembrancers from the HH series are black as well. WH40K shares no racist traits, there are even asians.

**Psienesis**

You've seen a black Inquisitor in a game not published or written by GW... there's been no arguments there.

The Salamanders aren't black-as-in-African, they're black-as-in-genetic-mutation. They are white dudes who happen to have jet black skin (and glowing red eyes).

And, yes, lots of characters in BL novels are depicted with all kinds of ethnicities... none of these things are what's being discussed ITT.

The model line for the tabletop, however, has no models of an ethnicity other than white, even for armies where ethnic diversity would be extremely common, and few to no models of the female gender, even in armies where it'd be fairly common (like the IG).

This thread isn't about 40K taken as a whole, it's about the models on the tabletop.

**Veteran Sergeant**

Psienesis wrote: They are white dudes who happen to have jet black skin (and glowing red eyes).

Source?

**Psienesis**

Original fluff -> Codex: Armageddon -> Current fluff.

Even in current fluff, their skin is jet-black (like, Citadel Paints "Chaos Black"

and their eyes are glowing red. You regularly meet black people with glowing red eyes?

Their depictions in Codex: Armageddon also show them have Caucasoid features but dark skin (and sometimes blonde hair), and their codex describes them as daemonic in appearance, with jet black skin and glowing red eyes, which has often frightened people so badly that it has quelled rebellions without a shot fired.

**Swastakowey**

Spoiler:

This used to be the vision of the Imperial Guard before they decided to stick with Cadians. So much variety.

At the end of the day, its not hard to create diversity yourself. Thats part of the hobby, making the armies your own. Which is probably why most models are white males. It takes minor effort to adding diversity if its important to you.

What I dont like is the lack of cultures displayed now. That was the big thing for guard, a huge merging of millions of cultures which meant different colours, uniforms, guns, worlds and languages etc. But they seem to mostly stick to a select few cultures now and its kinda disappointing.

In short, those pictures depict more of what the guard should look like and while it would be nice for it to be given to us if its something you want its gonna take some fun effort.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Swastakowey wrote:
This used to be the vision of the Imperial Guard before they decided to stick with Cadians.

And then they realized how so much diversity both in fluff and looks would so much more require different codex and models than “Same guys that the other but they wear red armors and get really angry” red marines or “So dark and broody and emo” green marines, so… they squashed the IG diversity

.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
The statistics from the government say 3.3% black, pretty small.

Yeah, but many desi. And (black) Jamaicans left their prints on Britain's culture by giving birth to the skinheads

.

**Bronzefists42**

Swastakowey wrote:

Spoiler:

This used to be the vision of the Imperial Guard before they decided to stick with Cadians. So much variety.

At the end of the day, its not hard to create diversity yourself. Thats part of the hobby, making the armies your own. Which is probably why most models are white males. It takes minor effort to adding diversity if its important to you.

What I dont like is the lack of cultures displayed now. That was the big thing for guard, a huge merging of millions of cultures which meant different colours, uniforms, guns, worlds and languages etc. But they seem to mostly stick to a select few cultures now and its kinda disappointing.

In short, those pictures depict more of what the guard should look like and while it would be nice for it to be given to us if its something you want its gonna take some fun effort.

GW (or FW) should put more resources into making IG more like those photos again.

Even old Cadians were cool.

**Swastakowey**

Bronzefists42 wrote:
Swastakowey wrote:

Spoiler:

This used to be the vision of the Imperial Guard before they decided to stick with Cadians. So much variety.

At the end of the day, its not hard to create diversity yourself. Thats part of the hobby, making the armies your own. Which is probably why most models are white males. It takes minor effort to adding diversity if its important to you.

What I dont like is the lack of cultures displayed now. That was the big thing for guard, a huge merging of millions of cultures which meant different colours, uniforms, guns, worlds and languages etc. But they seem to mostly stick to a select few cultures now and its kinda disappointing.

In short, those pictures depict more of what the guard should look like and while it would be nice for it to be given to us if its something you want its gonna take some fun effort.

GW (or FW) should put more resources into making IG more like those photos again.

Even old Cadians were cool.

As much as I would like that, heaps of places make bits and there are also heaps of historicals and so on to make them with that ultimately, just like the black people problem some people have, we can fix it ourselves and do a better job anyway. I would rather some rules for making your own men.

I have got a commissioned painter guy making all those guys for me starting now

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/627504.page

So you may find some cool ideas to make yours there.

**Crimson**

Psienesis wrote:
Original fluff -> Codex: Armageddon -> Current fluff.

Even in current fluff, their skin is jet-black (like, Citadel Paints "Chaos Black" and their eyes are glowing red. You regularly meet black people with glowing red eyes?

Their depictions in Codex: Armageddon also show them have Caucasoid features but dark skin (and sometimes blonde hair), and their codex describes them as daemonic in appearance, with jet black skin and glowing red eyes, which has often frightened people so badly that it has quelled rebellions without a shot fired.

Where are you getting from that they ever were caucasoid? They used to be regular black dudes, often with blonde hair. And it was a good look. I really hate the retcon, it made them look stupid, and erased the little ethnic diversity that the marines had.

**Psienesis**

Look at blondie up there with the sharp, Aquiline nose.

**Veteran Sergeant**

Psienesis wrote:
Original fluff -> Codex: Armageddon -> Current fluff.

Even in current fluff, their skin is jet-black (like, Citadel Paints "Chaos Black" and their eyes are glowing red. You regularly meet black people with glowing red eyes?

Their depictions in Codex: Armageddon also show them have Caucasoid features but dark skin (and sometimes blonde hair), and their codex describes them as daemonic in appearance, with jet black skin and glowing red eyes, which has often frightened people so badly that it has quelled rebellions without a shot fired.

No, I want a source for where they're all originally white dudes with black skin. None of the sources make any reference to their features being ethnically situated one way or another.

That part feels like it's been invented to fulfill a specific narrative. Codex Armageddon makes no reference to their ethnicity nor skin color (displaying both a white and black Salamander), and neither does their IA article.

This guy doesn't look like he's overly "Caucasoid" and he's in the Codex: Armageddon.

Neither does this guy.

The reality is that the Salamanders started off with "dusky" skin, which eventually turned to coal black when GW apparently decided having the "All Afro-Black Marines" was potentially controversial. If anything, they were more ethnic in the old days rather than darkwashed white dudes.