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That's actually one of the new additions / concepts I've liked about the Ultramarines fluff that actually makes them a little interesting.

The idea that Gulliman originally wrote the Codex Astartes as an Art of War style equivalent combined with a collection of interesting 'stuff' and military stories he's read.

However, over 10000 years, in the minds of an ever increasing number of Ultramarines, the Codex has effectively become a religious text (I'll leave it up to you to draw any real world parallels you wish), and by the 41st millennium a great many Ultramarines are now taking the book very much literally and it's only really the stand out members of the Chapter - Sicarius, Calgar etc, that are really able to grasp what the Codex Astartes was meant to be.

So, it's actually a real danger to the long-term future of the chapter, if someone like um... (It's been a while...) Agemman, becomes the Chapter Master and begins describing this literal interpretation of the codex as the one true thing (again, draw any real world parallels you wish).

This sort of concept gives the Ultramarines a potential flaw, a proper characterful hook that isn't just being practically perfect in every way.

And that's really quite interesting to me.

 Formosa wrote:
Guiliman didn't follow the codex, he wrote it, as a guideline, its only after he did one that the astartes (ultras specifically) started to assume it was the be all and end all of tactics and wasn't to be deviated from.

No no no and no.

That's only in the Graham McNeilliverse. The guy they took the Ultramarines away from and gave to Dan Abnett and ADB for the Horus Heresy so he couldn't do any more damage.

The reality is that the Ultramarines are spoken of as having victories without number and being the Greates of all Space Marine Chapters. Calgar is referred to as one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians. These are literally quotes from the fluff. If the Ultramarines follow idiotic rules laid down in a book that makes no sense, and Calgar treats that book like it's the War Bible, and he's one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians, then imagine how awful everyone else in the galaxy is at fighting wars.

You're welcome to that kind of Three Stoogeshammer 40K universe where everyone is a bumbling idiot. Might make for a funny web cartoon.

The reality is that every one of McNeill's Ultramarines novels is actually just a fevered hallucianation of a dying Sergeant Ventris, and the events of those books existing only in his imagination, because Uriel Ventris has never been the Captain of the Ultramarines 4th Company, a fact that remains true through the most recent codex, dated 999.M41.

McNeill is a terrible writer of military fiction. Let's just leave it at that. This is the guy who wrote a book where the characters run out of ammunition in one scene, and miraculously have more in the next one. Also wrote a scene where one of the protagonists loses his hand, but then has two hands again later in the novel when he has to fight again. The particulars of the details don't mean much to him. He does a decent job at characterization, but once the bullets and lasers start flying, things go downhill fast.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The reality is that every one of McNeill's Ultramarines novels is actually just a fevered hallucianation of a dying Sergeant Ventris, and the events of those books existing only in his imagination, because Uriel Ventris has never been the Captain of the Ultramarines 4th Company, a fact that remains true through the most recent codex, dated 999.M41.

I don't think we need to go quite that far. Uriel Ventris is kinda fun.

Agreed on the rest, though. The Ultramarines' hat is being the examplar of what the Astartes are. Someone has to be.

ther 6th ed 'nids 'dex specificly mentions Ventris, thing is EVEN IN the ultramarines novels... the codex isn't used that stupidly. where Ventris got in trouble was for essentially waltzing off from his leadership position to go accompany the death watch. I imagine most armies would... frown upon the senior officer of local forces running off to go play commando when he's supposed to be leading the battle

 ImAGeek wrote:

I dunno though they're all pretty good in their own way, there isn't really a loyalist version of Curze or Angron.

Curze used to be a darn effective general. So good that he won most of his battles without them even getting started.

There are no "bad" generals on the loyalist side, so deciding who is the worst becomes harder, as we have to dig for examples of comparison between good generals and decide who's the least great.

I have read little about the Khan, Vulkan or Ferrus Manus that depicts them into their role as generals.

Russ is a great general, but not a patient one. We know the Lion could do as well as him with less casualties, only a bit slower.

Unremembered Empire states that Horus really wanted to beat the Lion for the title of Warmaster, and Know no Fear has Horus admitting he tought it should have been Sanguinus instead.

UE clearly depicts Guilliman as competitive/jealous of the Lion and the First Legion. In it, the Lion readily agrees that Sanguinus would make a good heir for the Throne.

Guilliman wrote "the greatest war treatise of all time" and shaped the subsequent 10k years of warfare. We know he beat the Word Bearers...

I just don't think there's a way to tell. At most you can point at those who haven't been called "the best at x aspect of warfare" at any point... so, Vulkan?

 koooaei wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

I dunno though they're all pretty good in their own way, there isn't really a loyalist version of Curze or Angron.

Curze used to be a darn effective general. So good that he won most of his battles without them even getting started.

More barbaric and psychological monster than a good general. Still, I suppose that makes him effective.

The Loyalist foils to Curze and Angron are Corax and Sanguinius.

Really, that one was easy.

 Shidank wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

I dunno though they're all pretty good in their own way, there isn't really a loyalist version of Curze or Angron.

Curze used to be a darn effective general. So good that he won most of his battles without them even getting started.

More barbaric and psychological monster than a good general. Still, I suppose that makes him effective.

The Loyalist foils to Curze and Angron are Corax and Sanguinius.

Really, that one was easy.

I meant loyalist versions of them as in loyalist Primarchs that are crap generals, not loyalist foils to those two.

 ImAGeek wrote:


I meant loyalist versions of them as in loyalist Primarchs that are crap generals, not loyalist foils to those two.

I see! My mistake. I suppose the crap generals would be mostly lashed to Horus for the sake of plot convenience. It's easier to manipulate weaker people.

 Shidank wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:


I meant loyalist versions of them as in loyalist Primarchs that are crap generals, not loyalist foils to those two.

I see! My mistake. I suppose the crap generals would be mostly lashed to Horus for the sake of plot convenience. It's easier to manipulate weaker people.

I think it mentions that somewhere (I think someone mentioned it earlier here too); Horus mentions something about the most broken Primarchs are the ones that follow him. Which does make sense really.

 j31c3n wrote:


That's ... really not Dorn at all. You're ignoring the larger picture of the character to focus on a few moments of his story. You're being deliberately disingenuous to make a point. Dorn, Ferrus Manus, Russ, and Sanguinius were referred to by Guilliman as "the dauntless few" - the four Primarchs who most exemplified the design of the Emperor. If Guilliman thought well of a guy, chances are that guy wasn't "out of his mind."

And besides, if Ferrus Manus wasn't "out of his mind" for charging after Fulgrim, then neither was Dorn for charging after Perturabo. Logical consistency.

Is Guilliman God?

No?

Then I don't much care what he said about them.

Dorn has consistently been prone to doing silly insane things in the fluff.

No, that would be a fallacy.

Just because Dorn was insane while charging after Perturabo (and he explicitly was losing his sanity), doesn't mean Manus was. Manus was just pissed off, arrogant, and somewhat stupid.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:


That's ... really not Dorn at all. You're ignoring the larger picture of the character to focus on a few moments of his story. You're being deliberately disingenuous to make a point. Dorn, Ferrus Manus, Russ, and Sanguinius were referred to by Guilliman as "the dauntless few" - the four Primarchs who most exemplified the design of the Emperor. If Guilliman thought well of a guy, chances are that guy wasn't "out of his mind."

And besides, if Ferrus Manus wasn't "out of his mind" for charging after Fulgrim, then neither was Dorn for charging after Perturabo. Logical consistency.

Is Guilliman God?

No?

Then I don't much care what he said about them.

Dorn has consistently been prone to doing silly insane things in the fluff.

No, that would be a fallacy.

Just because Dorn was insane while charging after Perturabo (and he explicitly was losing his sanity), doesn't mean Manus was. Manus was just pissed off, arrogant, and somewhat stupid.

If you've ever actually read the story (it's at the end of Fulgrim then you would know that is the opposite of true. Ferris Manu's just had dozens of hundreds of his sons murdered by the man he was closer to than he would be to a twin, and that man just so happened to have betrayed everything Ferris stood for. Ferris was so angry that he literally could not focus on ANYTHING but killing Fulgrim.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:


That's ... really not Dorn at all. You're ignoring the larger picture of the character to focus on a few moments of his story. You're being deliberately disingenuous to make a point. Dorn, Ferrus Manus, Russ, and Sanguinius were referred to by Guilliman as "the dauntless few" - the four Primarchs who most exemplified the design of the Emperor. If Guilliman thought well of a guy, chances are that guy wasn't "out of his mind."

And besides, if Ferrus Manus wasn't "out of his mind" for charging after Fulgrim, then neither was Dorn for charging after Perturabo. Logical consistency.

Is Guilliman God?

No?

Then I don't much care what he said about them.

Dorn has consistently been prone to doing silly insane things in the fluff.

No, that would be a fallacy.

Just because Dorn was insane while charging after Perturabo (and he explicitly was losing his sanity), doesn't mean Manus was. Manus was just pissed off, arrogant, and somewhat stupid.

If you've ever actually read the story (it's at the end of Fulgrim then you would know that is the opposite of true. Ferris Manu's just had dozens of hundreds of his sons murdered by the man he was closer to than he would be to a twin, and that man just so happened to have betrayed everything Ferris stood for. Ferris was so angry that he literally could not focus on ANYTHING but killing Fulgrim.

Taking one mistake out of context seems to have damned Ferrus and thinking of Russ and the Wolves as the barbaric savages they purported to be has ruined them.

We should be able to look past these surface details and interpret what the BL writers have actually given us to disprove such notions.

 dusara217 wrote:

If you've ever actually read the story (it's at the end of Fulgrim then you would know that is the opposite of true. Ferris Manu's just had dozens of hundreds of his sons murdered by the man he was closer to than he would be to a twin, and that man just so happened to have betrayed everything Ferris stood for. Ferris was so angry that he literally could not focus on ANYTHING but killing Fulgrim.

Could be, Fulgrim was the first BL novel I ever read.

Quote?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Guiliman didn't follow the codex, he wrote it, as a guideline, its only after he did one that the astartes (ultras specifically) started to assume it was the be all and end all of tactics and wasn't to be deviated from.

No no no and no.

That's only in the Graham McNeilliverse. The guy they took the Ultramarines away from and gave to Dan Abnett and ADB for the Horus Heresy so he couldn't do any more damage.

The reality is that the Ultramarines are spoken of as having victories without number and being the Greates of all Space Marine Chapters. Calgar is referred to as one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians. These are literally quotes from the fluff. If the Ultramarines follow idiotic rules laid down in a book that makes no sense, and Calgar treats that book like it's the War Bible, and he's one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians, then imagine how awful everyone else in the galaxy is at fighting wars.

You're welcome to that kind of Three Stoogeshammer 40K universe where everyone is a bumbling idiot. Might make for a funny web cartoon.

The reality is that every one of McNeill's Ultramarines novels is actually just a fevered hallucianation of a dying Sergeant Ventris, and the events of those books existing only in his imagination, because Uriel Ventris has never been the Captain of the Ultramarines 4th Company, a fact that remains true through the most recent codex, dated 999.M41.

McNeill is a terrible writer of military fiction. Let's just leave it at that. This is the guy who wrote a book where the characters run out of ammunition in one scene, and miraculously have more in the next one. Also wrote a scene where one of the protagonists loses his hand, but then has two hands again later in the novel when he has to fight again. The particulars of the details don't mean much to him. He does a decent job at characterization, but once the bullets and lasers start flying, things go downhill fast.

Well said. I hate how McNeil makes the Codex Astartes into an idiot ball. Whoever is thinking of something the codex said is doing something stupid so that Ventris can be 2coolz4roolz.
In Courage and Honour Sergeant Learchus(?) gets sent to sneak around and he sees the Tau at some point, he has to restrain himself from blowing his mission by jumping out and engaging them because the Codex says he has to do that for some reason.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

If you've ever actually read the story (it's at the end of Fulgrim then you would know that is the opposite of true. Ferris Manu's just had dozens of hundreds of his sons murdered by the man he was closer to than he would be to a twin, and that man just so happened to have betrayed everything Ferris stood for. Ferris was so angry that he literally could not focus on ANYTHING but killing Fulgrim.

Could be, Fulgrim was the first BL novel I ever read.

Quote?

Sorry, I'm going to have to give a few quotes to convey the message, shouldn't be more than three.

'I have long waited for this moment, Fulgrim,' replied Ferrus, '... For months I have dreamt of this reckoning. Only one of us will walk away from this, you know that.'

'You betrayed the Emperor, and you betrayed me!' said Ferrus, and Fulgrim was surprised to hear genuine emotion in his brother's voice.

Ferrus Manus tore his eyes from the slaughter of the Loyalist forces, his teeth bared with the volcanic fury of his homeworld

'All I see is betrayal, Fulgrim!' roared Ferrus Manus, 'You are not talking about claiming back what we have won; you are talking about betraying everything we stand for!'

Ok, that was four, but it should convey the message. I can find a few more if you like, though I find quote hunting quite tedious. This was all from Fulgrim

Animus wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Guiliman didn't follow the codex, he wrote it, as a guideline, its only after he did one that the astartes (ultras specifically) started to assume it was the be all and end all of tactics and wasn't to be deviated from.

No no no and no.

That's only in the Graham McNeilliverse. The guy they took the Ultramarines away from and gave to Dan Abnett and ADB for the Horus Heresy so he couldn't do any more damage.

The reality is that the Ultramarines are spoken of as having victories without number and being the Greates of all Space Marine Chapters. Calgar is referred to as one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians. These are literally quotes from the fluff. If the Ultramarines follow idiotic rules laid down in a book that makes no sense, and Calgar treats that book like it's the War Bible, and he's one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians, then imagine how awful everyone else in the galaxy is at fighting wars.

You're welcome to that kind of Three Stoogeshammer 40K universe where everyone is a bumbling idiot. Might make for a funny web cartoon.

The reality is that every one of McNeill's Ultramarines novels is actually just a fevered hallucianation of a dying Sergeant Ventris, and the events of those books existing only in his imagination, because Uriel Ventris has never been the Captain of the Ultramarines 4th Company, a fact that remains true through the most recent codex, dated 999.M41.

McNeill is a terrible writer of military fiction. Let's just leave it at that. This is the guy who wrote a book where the characters run out of ammunition in one scene, and miraculously have more in the next one. Also wrote a scene where one of the protagonists loses his hand, but then has two hands again later in the novel when he has to fight again. The particulars of the details don't mean much to him. He does a decent job at characterization, but once the bullets and lasers start flying, things go downhill fast.

Well said. I hate how McNeil makes the Codex Astartes into an idiot ball. Whoever is thinking of something the codex said is doing something stupid so that Ventris can be 2coolz4roolz.
In Courage and Honour Sergeant Learchus(?) gets sent to sneak around and he sees the Tau at some point, he has to restrain himself from blowing his mission by jumping out and engaging them because the Codex says he has to do that for some reason.

I coulda sworn the codex said as a scout squad he SHOULDN'T engage stupidly despite wanting too, but it's been awhile.