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 thenoobbomb wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Jyst because we haven't seen anything yet, doesn't mean he did nothing.

thatsthejoke.jpg

Getting to Terra from where he was to turn the tide of the battle is no mean feat. I'd say he did more than Ferrus did...

Ferrus appears to have brought quite some worlds into compliance. The only mistake he made was his charge into the Traitor lines on Istvaan V - after mustering the remains of his crippled fleet into an effective combat force.

So you're saying The Khan bought no worlds into compliance..?

Well, there certainly isn't written anything about him, so there's no way to be certain he did or didn't!

http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/scars-hardback-edition.html

Looks like that's about Marines fighting eachother.

I dop hope you're all seeing I'm kidding by saying the Khan didn't do anything, right? Should be fairly obvious - I'm merely joking about the fact that there's so little written about him.

BUT IT ISN'T! YOU'RE MEAN!

I voted Vulkan. He seems like the most unremarkable in terms of warfare.

tgjensen wrote:
I voted Vulkan. He seems like the most unremarkable in terms of warfare.

Does unremarkable translate into bad?

Vulkan: Unremarkable
Corax: better at small engagements
Angron: Reckless
Curze: no plan or control

Honestly, it seems like Vulkan comes out on top given those 4.

Curious, didn't most of the loyalist forces on Istvaan V end up believing that they were going to die there with no escape available?

I remember that in the beginning of Deliverance Lost, Corax with the little men he has left are pretty much preparing for a last stand as they were under the impression that they had no way to get out of the losing battle. It's only thanks to Alpha Legion that Corax and the Astartes with him are able to evade certain death.

Assuming that Ferrus was in similar straights (I haven't read anything regarding Ferrus on Istvaan V) - under the impression that death and defeat were imminent and in no way avoidable - would his generalship still be considered that poor? If it is the case, it would sound more like to me he ends up trying to make the best of the situation by trying to 1) take out as many traitors as possible, and 2) beat another lesson into what was once his favorite brother - or kill him. Though possibly not in that order.

For me the answer is "Any of them would beat my army badly".

I'd prefer to face Russ because he's less subtle than the others.
That doesn't mean he's not subtle though; just less subtle than his brethren.

I certainly wouldn't take a Space Wolf's word for it that when others underestimate the Wolves it will be their downfall; that's typical Space Viking bravado talking. If, say, Alpharius or Magnus had said so it'd be different.

Despite that, any Space Marine's tactics will be subtle compared to your run-of-the-mill Imperial Army/AM commander. There's a reason those guys are called the Hammer of the Emperor.

As far as weaknesses go, yes, Vulkan can be baited to some extent by putting common citizens in danger. Not sure that's much of a weakness; at some point he might regretfully make the sacrifice rather than throw his forces into an obvious trap.

Ferrus Manus did let his emotions get the better of him at a key point. I'd argue that at Istavaan it didn't matter much in the end. Ferrus might well have realized the jig was up when his brothers didn't accept it, and he wanted vengeance while there was still time. Arguably, if all the Primarchs had worked together rather than leaving the Iron Hands to go it alone they might have had real success. Or not.

Dorn likewise let himself get sucked into the Iron Cage. Stupid, stupid mistake caused by emotion. For whatever reason, Dorn blamed himself more than any other Primarch for the Emperor's fall. He WAS the one Primarch who teleported to Horus' Battlebarge and lived, after all. Survivor's Guilt is definitely a thing. But it doesn't necessarily make him a bad general overall. As others have pointed out, he was probably the greatest defensive mind among the Primarchs.

Then again, let's not over-judge based on character flaws. Great commanders like Alexander and Napoleon let their emotions get the better of them, and paid for it with their armies and their empires. It doesn't mean they were worse commanders than, say, Wellsley or Porus, it just means they made bad emotion-charged decisions at some point.

Jon'son, Sanguinus, Guilliman, Corax and the Khan all were great commanders with few tactical, operational or strategic blunders to point to. Corax only real mistake was in desperate efforts to rebuild his Legion, not a battlefield error. I suppose you could blame Guilliman for not recognizing the Word Bearers were about to ambush him, but that seams a bit of a stretch. I can't think of any command blunders committed by Jon'son, Sanguinus or Corax.

And no, I wouldn't want to face ANY of them on the battlefield. If I had to I'd make sure my insurance was paid up.

My two teef.

 Shidank wrote:

 PastelAvenger wrote:
I think I would have to go for Leman Russ, he's just an attack dog with a legion behind him and although he does have military training and know how to lead I can imagine that he would be easily led into a trap.

Isn't this ignoring that Space Wolves were regarded as some of the most cunning strategists and that Russ, with nary an effort, outmaneuvered Angron as an object lesson?

While he's no Perturabo, Russ had a cunning all his own. Were I to doubt any Primarch, it may be Corax. Everything was too small scale for him.

The Wolves specialize in melee, making them an automatic loss as being contenders for competent military strategy.

The best way to tell who the best general is would be to give each Primarch ten platoons of US Marines and see who completed an objective minimal casualties.

 Shidank wrote:

tgjensen wrote:
I voted Vulkan. He seems like the most unremarkable in terms of warfare.

Does unremarkable translate into bad?

Vulkan: Unremarkable
Corax: better at small engagements
Angron: Reckless
Curze: no plan or control

Honestly, it seems like Vulkan comes out on top given those 4.

Lorgar comes off as a sloppy commander also.

How does he?

 Crazyterran wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:
Pick Russ and you will get your ass handed to you faster than you can say "woof".

He might have a appeared as a savage berserk, but he didn't end up bested only by Horus and Johnson in number of victories during the Crusades by just rushing in.
He was a barbarian, but that does not mean he was stupid or even remotely incompetent. Behind that veneer is a ruthless intellect.

Nor was he the one the Emperor turned to when we wanted another Legion to be taken down a notch because he just rushes in.

Guilliman is stated as being second only to Horus, or perhaps even his general when it comes to compliances and victories.

Compliance, maybe. But that includes peaceful bringing-into-the-fold. Russ was third in military victories, Johnson second (by a thin margin to Russ IIRC) - despite the Wolves being one of the smallest Legions. Smaller numbers, yet more victories than almost everyone else. Yeah, that sounds like a bloodthirsty berserk allright :rolleyes: .

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 PastelAvenger wrote:
I think I would have to go for Leman Russ, he's just an attack dog with a legion behind him and although he does have military training and know how to lead I can imagine that he would be easily led into a trap.

Isn't this ignoring that Space Wolves were regarded as some of the most cunning strategists and that Russ, with nary an effort, outmaneuvered Angron as an object lesson?

While he's no Perturabo, Russ had a cunning all his own. Were I to doubt any Primarch, it may be Corax. Everything was too small scale for him.

The Wolves specialize in melee, making them an automatic loss as being contenders for competent military strategy.

The best way to tell who the best general is would be to give each Primarch ten platoons of US Marines and see who completed an objective minimal casualties.

Melee can work. I have heard about bayonet-charges actually working in modern times as few things are more horrifying than being charged by a pissed off human intent on murder and if you are really good at close-combat it would be a viable strategy at situations.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 PastelAvenger wrote:
I think I would have to go for Leman Russ, he's just an attack dog with a legion behind him and although he does have military training and know how to lead I can imagine that he would be easily led into a trap.

Isn't this ignoring that Space Wolves were regarded as some of the most cunning strategists and that Russ, with nary an effort, outmaneuvered Angron as an object lesson?

While he's no Perturabo, Russ had a cunning all his own. Were I to doubt any Primarch, it may be Corax. Everything was too small scale for him.

The Wolves specialize in melee, making them an automatic loss as being contenders for competent military strategy.

The best way to tell who the best general is would be to give each Primarch ten platoons of US Marines and see who completed an objective minimal casualties.

Melee can work. I have heard about bayonet-charges actually working in modern times as few things are more horrifying than being charged by a pissed off human intent on murder and if you are really good at close-combat it would be a viable strategy at situations.

Yeah. And those events can be counted on a single hand. Meanwhile this thing called the RPG, grenade launcher, mortar, and LMG absolutely ruin any idea of a bayonet charge. Dorn actually would be among the better generals simply because of how the Imperial Fists love bolters and heavy bolters.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 PastelAvenger wrote:
I think I would have to go for Leman Russ, he's just an attack dog with a legion behind him and although he does have military training and know how to lead I can imagine that he would be easily led into a trap.

Isn't this ignoring that Space Wolves were regarded as some of the most cunning strategists and that Russ, with nary an effort, outmaneuvered Angron as an object lesson?

While he's no Perturabo, Russ had a cunning all his own. Were I to doubt any Primarch, it may be Corax. Everything was too small scale for him.

The Wolves specialize in melee, making them an automatic loss as being contenders for competent military strategy.

The best way to tell who the best general is would be to give each Primarch ten platoons of US Marines and see who completed an objective minimal casualties.

The Months of Shame in which they outwitted, outmaneuvered, and outfought the Inquisition, the Red Hunters, and the Grey Knights would singularly and magnifcently throw your claims to the wind.

 Shidank wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 PastelAvenger wrote:
I think I would have to go for Leman Russ, he's just an attack dog with a legion behind him and although he does have military training and know how to lead I can imagine that he would be easily led into a trap.

Isn't this ignoring that Space Wolves were regarded as some of the most cunning strategists and that Russ, with nary an effort, outmaneuvered Angron as an object lesson?

While he's no Perturabo, Russ had a cunning all his own. Were I to doubt any Primarch, it may be Corax. Everything was too small scale for him.

The Wolves specialize in melee, making them an automatic loss as being contenders for competent military strategy.

The best way to tell who the best general is would be to give each Primarch ten platoons of US Marines and see who completed an objective minimal casualties.

The Months of Shame in which they outwitted, outmaneuvered, and outfought the Inquisition, the Red Hunters, and the Grey Knights would singularly and magnifcently throw your claims to the wind.

The Months of Shame are irrelevant. They weren't led by Russ, and they weren't an actual conflict.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 PastelAvenger wrote:
I think I would have to go for Leman Russ, he's just an attack dog with a legion behind him and although he does have military training and know how to lead I can imagine that he would be easily led into a trap.

Isn't this ignoring that Space Wolves were regarded as some of the most cunning strategists and that Russ, with nary an effort, outmaneuvered Angron as an object lesson?

While he's no Perturabo, Russ had a cunning all his own. Were I to doubt any Primarch, it may be Corax. Everything was too small scale for him.

The Wolves specialize in melee, making them an automatic loss as being contenders for competent military strategy.

The best way to tell who the best general is would be to give each Primarch ten platoons of US Marines and see who completed an objective minimal casualties.

The Months of Shame in which they outwitted, outmaneuvered, and outfought the Inquisition, the Red Hunters, and the Grey Knights would singularly and magnifcently throw your claims to the wind.

The Months of Shame are irrelevant. They weren't led by Russ, and they weren't an actual conflict.

Incorrect. The chapter's tactics and strategies will have altered little since Russ. If anything, removing Russ shows how impressive Space Wolves are. You've actually made the argument more clear.

I recommend reading Vengeful Spirit. Russ repeatedly defeats Malcador at a board game and discusses strategy. I think the greatest blunder you've made is to actually believe the Wolves are savages.

This is actually pretty impossible to say, as all Primarchs were created as capable generals, but they all had different view on warfare.

 Shidank wrote:
Does unremarkable translate into bad?

Vulkan: Unremarkable
Corax: better at small engagements
Angron: Reckless
Curze: no plan or control

Honestly, it seems like Vulkan comes out on top given those 4.

No, it doesn't. They were all great generals. Some of them were undeniably greater than others, however, which is why I went by the one that, as far as I'm aware of, has the least greatest reputation. Corax and the Khan at least have trademark styles of warfare that they are supposedly masters of.
Another unremarkable Primarch is Sanguinius, actually. He's very charismatic and a great fighter, and gets lots of attention on those accounts, but I've never heard any praise of him as a general. Not like Guilliman, Dorn and the Lion.

And Angron and Curze are obviously irrelevant, since we are only discussing the loyalists.

here's the funny thing....... the loyalist primarchs, for the most part are the competant ones. Even Horus seems to reckongize this, noting that among his "peers" it's mostly loyalists. with the primarchs following him being the more broken ones.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Context for the question. You and said Primarch are facing each other on the battlefield. Neither of you know the composition of each other's forces. Knowing only what you know about the Primarch, who would you want to go up against, knowing that losing would result in your death? Whose presence on the field as commander would give you the greatest chance of victory simply by being the commanding general?

Given one decisive battle to the death as stated by the OP, the advantage lies with more tactically gifted generals. In older fluff at least, Russ and the Lion were considered master tacticians, second only to Horus in their number of victories so they would be the loyalist primarchs to avoid. In turn Horus considered only Gulliman and Ferrus Manus as his true rivals for warmaster so they have to be quite good in all facets of war. The white scars are a mess when it comes to logistics but the Kahn is the hardest primarch to read and most unpredictable of the bunch. That is not a quality you'd like your opponent to posses in a single battle. Similarly, Corax is a gifted field commander and pulled off a successful retreat from Istvaan 5 while being pressured by several hostile legions.

Which leaves Sangunius, Dorn and Vulkan as worst options. Sangunius qualities as a general are somewhat of a mystery as the writers like to set him up one on one with whatever big demon they can come up with. The Blood angels are the premier loyalist shock assault force so he can't be all that bad. Dorn is somewhat inflexible but the best when it comes to defending a position and probably the worst in a offensive battle. Vulkan's main qualities lie with tenacity and endurance, but doesn't seem to posses any real standout qualities and is prone to self doubt so he would be my pick as 'easiest' opponent.

BrianDavion wrote:
here's the funny thing....... the loyalist primarchs, for the most part are the competant ones. Even Horus seems to reckongize this, noting that among his "peers" it's mostly loyalists. with the primarchs following him being the more broken ones.

Honestly, I only ever considered Perturabo and Alpharius as losses. The rest are pretty meh.

None of the primarchs were -bad- generals. Not even Angron was a bad general. Bad person, maybe, what with pounding nails into his own dudes' heads, but he got gak done just like any other primarch. Even the really spooky guys like Curze and Mortarion were efficient war leaders in their own styles.

 j31c3n wrote:
None of the primarchs were -bad- generals. Not even Angron was a bad general. Bad person, maybe, what with pounding nails into his own dudes' heads, but he got gak done just like any other primarch. Even the really spooky guys like Curze and Mortarion were efficient war leaders in their own styles.

I don't agree, considering Angron was rebuked twice, once by Russ and once by The Emperor, so clearly they both thought he wasn't up to scratch. Angron wasn't even a general in my opinion. He barely leads his legion, he just runs off ahead when the nails take him. He was just another one of the World Eaters at that point. He dug himself into the ground and had to be snapped out of his madness by the few remaining librarians from the WE because he was that damn loony he didn't know where he was.

I think you could just split them into three categories: Great, Unremarkable or specialized, and Liability.

In this case:

Horus: Great
Dorn: Great (or much less, depending on his mood and post Heresy.
Guilliman: Great
Jonson: Great->Specialized (he never commanded multi-legion, but seemed to have the potential to)
Fulgrim: Specialized
Sanguinus: Specialized (leaning towards Great?)
Ferrus: Specialized
Vulkan: Specialized (unremarkable?)
Russ: Specialized/Liability (sorta)
Angron: Liability
Perturabo: Specialized (potential for Great or unremarkable?)
Khan: Specialized
Mortarion: Specialized (leaning towards unremarkable it seems)
Curze: Liability
Alpharius/Omegon: Specialized, Liability, potential for great? (ie, all of the above)
Corax: Specialized/Unremarkable
Magnus: Specialized
Lorgar: Unremarkable.

Sounds definitely like Chaos got the short end of the stick.
Of the Loyalists, it's a close last-place race between Vulkan and Corax, it seems.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
None of the primarchs were -bad- generals. Not even Angron was a bad general. Bad person, maybe, what with pounding nails into his own dudes' heads, but he got gak done just like any other primarch. Even the really spooky guys like Curze and Mortarion were efficient war leaders in their own styles.

I don't agree, considering Angron was rebuked twice, once by Russ and once by The Emperor, so clearly they both thought he wasn't up to scratch. Angron wasn't even a general in my opinion. He barely leads his legion, he just runs off ahead when the nails take him. He was just another one of the World Eaters at that point. He dug himself into the ground and had to be snapped out of his madness by the few remaining librarians from the WE because he was that damn loony he didn't know where he was.

They rebuked his ferocity and bloodthirst, not his lack of success.

The success is basically just him and his legion butchering worlds. You don't need to be a good general to do that.

Roboute; do the Alpha Legion thing of memorising the Codex Astartes and then proceeding to anticipate his moves.

That didn't work out too well for the AL after he did what they least expected and killed one of the Primarchs (well presumably).

Bran Dawri wrote:

Compliance, maybe. But that includes peaceful bringing-into-the-fold. Russ was third in military victories, Johnson second (by a thin margin to Russ IIRC) - despite the Wolves being one of the smallest Legions. Smaller numbers, yet more victories than almost everyone else. Yeah, that sounds like a bloodthirsty berserk allright :rolleyes: .

Russ was also discovered second. Guilliman and the Lion were discovered later and still have astounding track records. Additionally the Ultramarines spent time on securing worlds after they were taken; ensuring they'd be productive, stable and loyal planets. Part of why the Ultramarines were so vast was because they generally took less casualties as well as having more worlds to draw recruits from.

Shidank wrote:Incorrect. The chapter's tactics and strategies will have altered little since Russ. If anything, removing Russ shows how impressive Space Wolves are. You've actually made the argument more clear.

I find that unlikely. During the Great Crusade all the Legions made use of massive superiority to smash aside resistance in a timely manner (which is pretty much the main way Angron survived). While sometimes they may have been outmatched and only able to pull through with superior tactics it does seem rare. In the 41st millennium the space marines (including the Space Wolves) no longer have the luxury of such an advantage and would likely generally favour taking time over casualties. Not too mention the changes in technology, fleet size, priorities and various other things.

The way that fight is described (roboute killing Alpharius very easily) makes it seem far to likely that "Alpharius" was just a regular legionaire. Similar to

Another example of the Alphas out maneuvering the Ultras

SonofTerra wrote:
The way that fight is described (roboute killing Alpharius very easily) makes it seem far to likely that "Alpharius" was just a regular legionaire. Similar to

Spoiler:

When Sheed Ranko drinks some of Omegon's blood, granting him with memories, knowledge and ability above that of a normal marine

Another example of the Alphas out maneuvering the Ultras

We don't know yet though, so. How many times have they actually outmanoeuvred the UM anyway? I know they led them around a bit after the siege, but apart from that did they really come into contact much?

The idea that Guilliman would confuse a regular marine for his brother is also pretty absurd.