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Corax is a pretty good general, actually. He beat Guilliman a few times when they were running simulations. What do you mean too small scale?

 ImAGeek wrote:
Corax is a pretty good general, actually. He beat Guilliman a few times when they were running simulations. What do you mean too small scale?

Specifically? The actual engagements we see in the HH fluff. When he takes the field, he's almost as bad an Angron at striking off on his own. He does better with small groups(escaping the dropsite massacre) than he seems to large scale engagements.

As a Primarch, you can't say he's a bad general. What we're doing is discussing who would be bad in comparison to the others.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Why isn't it fair? Everybody lost their father, and they didn't all go off the rails like Dorn did. Yeah he found the bodies but they all felt the same loss.

I'm not saying he's the worst btw, just playing devils advocate.

The thing with Dorn was that he was the "faithful son". The Emperor was his God, even if he didn't recognize that fact; he idolized the Emperor, followed his orders to the letter. He was a zealot through and through, and none of the other Primarchs were as loyal or as faithful as he was (except for perhaps Lorgar before being "chastized"). All of the other Primarchs were self-sufficient, but Dorn was completely reliant upon the Emperor, and saw it as his own failure that the Emperor and Sanguinius had died - it was like if you had been able to stop both God and Jesus Christ from being killed by the Devil, yet you got tied up fighting some Demons and they both died. You'd feel prettys hitty about yourself, wouldn't you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I voted Russ, not because he's an idiot barbarian (quite the opposite, in fact), but because he relies too heavily on melee. While he's busy using his devious cunning and engaging his men and alongside his men in melee combat, my snipers just need to get a single headshot because he's too busy leading from the front. After that, I withdraw my troops and hide in the biggest fortification I've got and surround it with traps and bunkers that seem like ideal defensive positions until they spontaneously explode from the inside.

Looking at this list it's pretty hard to pick one in all honesty, I think the loyalists were all pretty top notch.

Not saying that the Traitors weren't, but they had more doozys than the loyalists. But then they made up for it by having Horus.

 dusara217 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Why isn't it fair? Everybody lost their father, and they didn't all go off the rails like Dorn did. Yeah he found the bodies but they all felt the same loss.

I'm not saying he's the worst btw, just playing devils advocate.

The thing with Dorn was that he was the "faithful son". The Emperor was his God, even if he didn't recognize that fact; he idolized the Emperor, followed his orders to the letter. He was a zealot through and through, and none of the other Primarchs were as loyal or as faithful as he was (except for perhaps Lorgar before being "chastized"). All of the other Primarchs were self-sufficient, but Dorn was completely reliant upon the Emperor, and saw it as his own failure that the Emperor and Sanguinius had died - it was like if you had been able to stop both God and Jesus Christ from being killed by the Devil, yet you got tied up fighting some Demons and they both died. You'd feel prettys hitty about yourself, wouldn't you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I voted Russ, not because he's an idiot barbarian (quite the opposite, in fact), but because he relies too heavily on melee. While he's busy using his devious cunning and engaging his men and alongside his men in melee combat, my snipers just need to get a single headshot because he's too busy leading from the front. After that, I withdraw my troops and hide in the biggest fortification I've got and surround it with traps and bunkers that seem like ideal defensive positions until they spontaneously explode from the inside.

Dorn seemed to carry the legacy of the unworthy son long before this moment. I feel like Empy and Sanguinius dying just exacerbated it in himself and in the legion which also carried that psychology genecurse. It's like a much darker turn on the Ultramarines "Captain Try-Hard" motif.

As for Russ, I can't even begin to argue his blatant recklessness. Dorn even said that Russ couldn't be counted on to come save Terra, as he'd likely die fighting on the way. Curze, Alpharius, or Mortarion could have taken advantage of his goodly viking nature and ended him, but at tremendous cost.

Looks like Russ's strategy of getting enemies to underestimate him is working well ITT.

 Shidank wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Corax is a pretty good general, actually. He beat Guilliman a few times when they were running simulations. What do you mean too small scale?

Specifically? The actual engagements we see in the HH fluff. When he takes the field, he's almost as bad an Angron at striking off on his own. He does better with small groups(escaping the dropsite massacre) than he seems to large scale engagements.

As a Primarch, you can't say he's a bad general. What we're doing is discussing who would be bad in comparison to the others.

Yeah he is very independent, but then the whole legion is. I don't think he's worse than the others but I guess we haven't actually seen much of him being a general.

I still don't know, I think they're all pretty good generals. It's hard to pick a worst one, they all have their strengths.

 Shidank wrote:

As for Russ, I can't even begin to argue his blatant recklessness. Dorn even said that Russ couldn't be counted on to come save Terra, as he'd likely die fighting on the way. Curze, Alpharius, or Mortarion could have taken advantage of his goodly viking nature and ended him, but at tremendous cost.

This is Dorn we're talking about, the same guy who imprisoned and/or killed all of his Librarians after the Edict of Nikaea. He's as gullible as a human in some respects, and he is one of those who sees the Khan and the Wolf as mindless barbarians, despite this being proven to be false time and again - otherwise the Wolf would have been killed fighting one of the thousands of wars he participated in.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Looking at this list it's pretty hard to pick one in all honesty, I think the loyalists were all pretty top notch.

Not saying that the Traitors weren't, but they had more doozys than the loyalists. But then they made up for it by having Horus.

Yeah, OP's question sort of boils down to "how would you rather die?" And even among the traitors, the only guy who seems like a poor general is Angron but you can chalk that up to him not wanting to be a general ... although he didn't fare that well on Nuceria, either.

Id also say Curze isn't an amazing general either, and has very little control over his legion (and he hates them all which doesn't help).

On the other hand, he was able to conquer his homeworld. Curze is moody but can apply himself.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Looking at this list it's pretty hard to pick one in all honesty, I think the loyalists were all pretty top notch.

Not saying that the Traitors weren't, but they had more doozys than the loyalists. But then they made up for it by having Horus.

Yeah, OP's question sort of boils down to "how would you rather die?" And even among the traitors, the only guy who seems like a poor general is Angron but you can chalk that up to him not wanting to be a general ... although he didn't fare that well on Nuceria, either.

Yep, it's just that he is a bit predictable and I would guess, more easy to manipulate to follow your plan rather than devise a counter strategy. If he didn't have the Nails he would be up there with the best I would imagine.

And that is a good point about wanting to be a general, a few of the Traitors didn't seem to have the passion for it. Lorgar and Magnus lead their Legions because it was what was expected of them. but would have been happier doing the Admin side of things.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

As for Russ, I can't even begin to argue his blatant recklessness. Dorn even said that Russ couldn't be counted on to come save Terra, as he'd likely die fighting on the way. Curze, Alpharius, or Mortarion could have taken advantage of his goodly viking nature and ended him, but at tremendous cost.

This is Dorn we're talking about, the same guy who imprisoned and/or killed all of his Librarians after the Edict of Nikaea. He's as gullible as a human in some respects, and he is one of those who sees the Khan and the Wolf as mindless barbarians, despite this being proven to be false time and again - otherwise the Wolf would have been killed fighting one of the thousands of wars he participated in.

Actually, yeah. Dorn is probably the most gullible of the Primarchs. Never looked at it that way.

But just because Dorn said it, that doesn't mean it's fact. We know that Russ didn't die fighting on his way to Terra; he just came really really close.

 Manchu wrote:
On the other hand, he was able to conquer his homeworld. Curze is moody but can apply himself.

Yeah but he did that by himself, so that wasn't being a general. He doesn't have any control over the Night Lords or even care about them so he already isn't a good general

I voted for the Khan. I mean, he didn't do anything now, did he?

 thenoobbomb wrote:
I voted for the Khan. I mean, he didn't do anything now, did he?

Well he got to and fought at Terra which was kind of a major battle

 ImAGeek wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
I voted for the Khan. I mean, he didn't do anything now, did he?

Well he got to and fought at Terra which was kind of a major battle

Some may argue he sort of....won....the Battle of Terra

He was almost certainly a deciding factor, although we don't know if they would've lost if Horus didn't let the Emperor on board the Vengeful Spirit.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
I voted for the Khan. I mean, he didn't do anything now, did he?

Well he got to and fought at Terra which was kind of a major battle

He didn't lead the defence of Terra, and it doesn't look like he did anything else during the Great Crusade, so..

Jyst because we haven't seen anything yet, doesn't mean he did nothing. Getting to Terra from where he was to turn the tide of the battle is no mean feat. I'd say he did more than Ferrus did...

Well I wouldn't like to work for any of the traitor Primarches. I mean one of them even decimated his own forces before even knowing them, and the effect that guy would have on a work-force is just terrifying to comprehend.

If I were to work for any of the Primarches it would either be Dorn (wouldn't look for much praise as he wouldn't talk to me unless I frakked up), Guilliman or Leman Russ as the last one would likely hold an unending list of parties. Of the loyalist the person I least would like working for is Mannus as he is not a nice guy or the Lion as if I frakked up I might just as well end up beheaded.

As for worst general amongst the loyalists I guess Corax as he seem to fare the worst of them in larger scale conflicts but the all would be what we would describe as military geniuses even Angron despite him always going for the jugular and indiscriminate butchery. Would certainly not like working for him.

 ImAGeek wrote:
He was almost certainly a deciding factor, although we don't know if they would've lost if Horus didn't let the Emperor on board the Vengeful Spirit.

You're right. Horus was the worst General. He never made it through to the money shot with grace.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Jyst because we haven't seen anything yet, doesn't mean he did nothing.

thatsthejoke.jpg

Getting to Terra from where he was to turn the tide of the battle is no mean feat. I'd say he did more than Ferrus did...

Ferrus appears to have brought quite some worlds into compliance. The only mistake he made was his charge into the Traitor lines on Istvaan V - after mustering the remains of his crippled fleet into an effective combat force.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
I voted for the Khan. I mean, he didn't do anything now, did he?

Well he got to and fought at Terra which was kind of a major battle

He didn't lead the defence of Terra, and it doesn't look like he did anything else during the Great Crusade, so..

There was that whole space port thing that prevented the traitors from winning.

And I heard he cooked a mean fried chicken.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Jyst because we haven't seen anything yet, doesn't mean he did nothing.

thatsthejoke.jpg

Getting to Terra from where he was to turn the tide of the battle is no mean feat. I'd say he did more than Ferrus did...

Ferrus appears to have brought quite some worlds into compliance. The only mistake he made was his charge into the Traitor lines on Istvaan V - after mustering the remains of his crippled fleet into an effective combat force.

So you're saying The Khan bought no worlds into compliance..?

 ImAGeek wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Jyst because we haven't seen anything yet, doesn't mean he did nothing.

thatsthejoke.jpg

Getting to Terra from where he was to turn the tide of the battle is no mean feat. I'd say he did more than Ferrus did...

Ferrus appears to have brought quite some worlds into compliance. The only mistake he made was his charge into the Traitor lines on Istvaan V - after mustering the remains of his crippled fleet into an effective combat force.

So you're saying The Khan bought no worlds into compliance..?

I just picture the Khan rolling up on a space chopper like Lobo, pointing at a planet, and shouting, "Fitty-bucks for the whole damn thing."

 ImAGeek wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Jyst because we haven't seen anything yet, doesn't mean he did nothing.

thatsthejoke.jpg

Getting to Terra from where he was to turn the tide of the battle is no mean feat. I'd say he did more than Ferrus did...

Ferrus appears to have brought quite some worlds into compliance. The only mistake he made was his charge into the Traitor lines on Istvaan V - after mustering the remains of his crippled fleet into an effective combat force.

So you're saying The Khan bought no worlds into compliance..?

Well, there certainly isn't written anything about him, so there's no way to be certain he did or didn't!

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Jyst because we haven't seen anything yet, doesn't mean he did nothing.

thatsthejoke.jpg

Getting to Terra from where he was to turn the tide of the battle is no mean feat. I'd say he did more than Ferrus did...

Ferrus appears to have brought quite some worlds into compliance. The only mistake he made was his charge into the Traitor lines on Istvaan V - after mustering the remains of his crippled fleet into an effective combat force.

So you're saying The Khan bought no worlds into compliance..?

Well, there certainly isn't written anything about him, so there's no way to be certain he did or didn't!

http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/scars-hardback-edition.html

 Shidank wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Jyst because we haven't seen anything yet, doesn't mean he did nothing.

thatsthejoke.jpg

Getting to Terra from where he was to turn the tide of the battle is no mean feat. I'd say he did more than Ferrus did...

Ferrus appears to have brought quite some worlds into compliance. The only mistake he made was his charge into the Traitor lines on Istvaan V - after mustering the remains of his crippled fleet into an effective combat force.

So you're saying The Khan bought no worlds into compliance..?

Well, there certainly isn't written anything about him, so there's no way to be certain he did or didn't!

http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/scars-hardback-edition.html

Looks like that's about Marines fighting eachother.

I dop hope you're all seeing I'm kidding by saying the Khan didn't do anything, right? Should be fairly obvious - I'm merely joking about the fact that there's so little written about him.

I get that now after the thatsthejoke.jpg thing haha. I do hope they give him something major to do though. They're criminally underrepresented.