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Martel732 wrote:
If the devilfish gets reworked into something useful, the GK are going to struggle against Tau again. Just something to think about. I still think that Tau players could deploy in a more savvy manner against drop lists/shunt lists, but with a good transport, alpha strikes get neutered.

transports ruin alpha strikes - have to waste firepower to kill a junk unit first. This is a good strategy. Abusing ruins cover by going to ground is not a good strategy - I expect you do do it. Most my weapons have ignore cover as a result. Get roasted by shunt torrent .

 Bill1138 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Bill, why do you think that the Psycannon should have lance? It doesn't really make sense other than to render all Daemon builds useless.

Grey Knights can't statistically handle Soulgrinders with any degree of effectiveness. Lance gives the Grey Knights a slightly better chance against them without changing the balance of the weapon in regards to other types of targets.

With Lance: 4 shots stationary
2/3 chance to hit
1/6 chance to glance, 1/6 chance to pen
~0.296 Glancing Hits, and 0.296 Penetrating hits (unsaved)

Without Lance: 4 shots stationary
2/3 chance to hit
1/6 chance to pen.
~0.296 Penetrating hits. (unsaved)

Half those values if the Psycannon was on a PAGK unit that moved.

Less than 30% chance of getting an unsaved Glance against a Soulgrinder is not going to make Chaos Daemons' lists obsolete. It's just a fair chance for the faction that is supposed to be the antithesis of Daemons to be able to hold their own against them.

Now let's reverse it:

What do Daemons have that can hurt Land Raiders?

Nothing. Just like how you don't have anything to hurt the Soul Grinder.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Force is useless if it the Weapon can't Wound when it needs to."

Multi-wound models are useless when they lose all winds after a single wound.

Which is worse for the game? Force to be useless (which only affects psykers) or multi-wound models (which affects every army).

This is why your suggestion is way too powerful; it invalidates too much (and due to IoM ally shenanigan half of the armies would have them).

SGTPozy wrote:

 Bill1138 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Bill, why do you think that the Psycannon should have lance? It doesn't really make sense other than to render all Daemon builds useless.

Grey Knights can't statistically handle Soulgrinders with any degree of effectiveness. Lance gives the Grey Knights a slightly better chance against them without changing the balance of the weapon in regards to other types of targets.

With Lance: 4 shots stationary
2/3 chance to hit
1/6 chance to glance, 1/6 chance to pen
~0.296 Glancing Hits, and 0.296 Penetrating hits (unsaved)

Without Lance: 4 shots stationary
2/3 chance to hit
1/6 chance to pen.
~0.296 Penetrating hits. (unsaved)

Half those values if the Psycannon was on a PAGK unit that moved.

Less than 30% chance of getting an unsaved Glance against a Soulgrinder is not going to make Chaos Daemons' lists obsolete. It's just a fair chance for the faction that is supposed to be the antithesis of Daemons to be able to hold their own against them.

Now let's reverse it:

What do Daemons have that can hurt Land Raiders?

Nothing. Just like how you don't have anything to hurt the Soul Grinder.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Force is useless if it the Weapon can't Wound when it needs to."

Multi-wound models are useless when they lose all winds after a single wound.

Which is worse for the game? Force to be useless (which only affects psykers) or multi-wound models (which affects every army).

This is why your suggestion is way too powerful; it invalidates too much (and due to IoM ally shenanigan half of the armies would have them).

I'm sorry, but what? Daemons have the Strength-D weapon toting Bloodthirster for cracking AV14. They also have screamers from what I remember, so they definitely have tools to open up land raiders, which generally aren't the main issue for daemons lists anyways.

Also I think you're over emphasizing on the use of multi-wound units in armies. The non-MC vulnerable to them (i.e. Nobz, Tyranid Warriors, Ogryns) were never great at soaking firepower and often more vulnerable to high S blast templates than force so it really doesn't change the meta for them given how little they were deployed to begin with. The vast majority of loyalist SM forces don't even have a lot of multi-wound models for Force to be useful against them, short of Centurions. Also I think Force is a very viable answer to MC-spam in a lot of lists and that its a counter that I find needs to be more prevalent given how weak vehicles are in comparison to them.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If the devilfish gets reworked into something useful, the GK are going to struggle against Tau again. Just something to think about. I still think that Tau players could deploy in a more savvy manner against drop lists/shunt lists, but with a good transport, alpha strikes get neutered.

transports ruin alpha strikes - have to waste firepower to kill a junk unit first. This is a good strategy. Abusing ruins cover by going to ground is not a good strategy - I expect you do do it. Most my weapons have ignore cover as a result. Get roasted by shunt torrent .

Also don't forget that the vehicle chart makes HP scrubbing the dominant method for killing vehicles, and this consumes a great number of shots in general. For non-Tau/Eldar, this is an issue.

 Grimskul wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Bill1138 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Bill, why do you think that the Psycannon should have lance? It doesn't really make sense other than to render all Daemon builds useless.

Grey Knights can't statistically handle Soulgrinders with any degree of effectiveness. Lance gives the Grey Knights a slightly better chance against them without changing the balance of the weapon in regards to other types of targets.

With Lance: 4 shots stationary
2/3 chance to hit
1/6 chance to glance, 1/6 chance to pen
~0.296 Glancing Hits, and 0.296 Penetrating hits (unsaved)

Without Lance: 4 shots stationary
2/3 chance to hit
1/6 chance to pen.
~0.296 Penetrating hits. (unsaved)

Half those values if the Psycannon was on a PAGK unit that moved.

Less than 30% chance of getting an unsaved Glance against a Soulgrinder is not going to make Chaos Daemons' lists obsolete. It's just a fair chance for the faction that is supposed to be the antithesis of Daemons to be able to hold their own against them.

Now let's reverse it:

What do Daemons have that can hurt Land Raiders?

Nothing. Just like how you don't have anything to hurt the Soul Grinder.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Force is useless if it the Weapon can't Wound when it needs to."

Multi-wound models are useless when they lose all winds after a single wound.

Which is worse for the game? Force to be useless (which only affects psykers) or multi-wound models (which affects every army).

This is why your suggestion is way too powerful; it invalidates too much (and due to IoM ally shenanigan half of the armies would have them).

I'm sorry, but what? Daemons have the Strength-D weapon toting Bloodthirster for cracking AV14. They also have screamers from what I remember, so they definitely have tools to open up land raiders, which generally aren't the main issue for daemons lists anyways.

Also I think you're over emphasizing on the use of multi-wound units in armies. The non-MC vulnerable to them (i.e. Nobz, Tyranid Warriors, Ogryns) were never great at soaking firepower and often more vulnerable to high S blast templates than force so it really doesn't change the meta for them given how little they were deployed to begin with. The vast majority of loyalist SM forces don't even have a lot of multi-wound models for Force to be useful against them, short of Centurions. Also I think Force is a very viable answer to MC-spam in a lot of lists and that its a counter that I find needs to be more prevalent given how weak vehicles are in comparison to them.

I assumed that we were ignoring close combat hence why GKs 'need' a ranged anti-tank option even though they have S6 across the board and S10 Dreadknights.

So you're okay with poison 3+ AND force then? It would probably be the final push to make those units never seen in 40k again.

I agree that force is a good counter to MCs, but NOT when the force gun also wounds on a 3+.

MCs are vulnerable to poison/sniper and force but there shouldn't be a gun that has both; that's too OP.

SGTPozy wrote:
I assumed that we were ignoring close combat hence why GKs 'need' a ranged anti-tank option even though they have S6 across the board and S10 Dreadknights.

So you're okay with poison 3+ AND force then? It would probably be the final push to make those units never seen in 40k again.

I agree that force is a good counter to MCs, but NOT when the force gun also wounds on a 3+.

MCs are vulnerable to poison/sniper and force but there shouldn't be a gun that has both; that's too OP.

Use your common sense. Monstrous Creatures don't need to be invincible to be worth taking. Look at the Dreadknight. Half the time they don't live until turn 3, but they are still the best unit in the Grey Knight Codex. Force and Poison together are not a bad or over-powered combination. It is a balancing factor against Monstrous Creatures being too powerful. Look at the math, it is far from a certainty of killing the Monstrous Creatures. It's just good enough odds to make the weapon worth taking.

If MCs didn't have armor saves, it would be over powered. But they do. Some of them having fething 2+ armor. There needs to be a real counter somewhere other than more plasma, more grav. This is actually a counter that DOESN'T hose meqs in the process. But I guess we can't have that.

Martel732 wrote:
If MCs didn't have armor saves, it would be over powered. But they do. Some of them having fething 2+ armor. There needs to be a real counter somewhere other than more plasma, more grav. This is actually a counter that DOESN'T hose meqs in the process. But I guess we can't have that.

The vast majority of multi-wound stuff in the daemons codex, including most MC's doesn't have an armour save... just saying.

Besides, the answer to the "oh noes, Riptides & Wraithknights are too OP!" isn't to make the Psilencer a single turn auto-counter to them, as it then becomes beyond broken against everything below those MC's.
Instead, we simply need to reign in the bare handful of problem MC's such as the Riptide/Wraithknight and to a lesser extent, Dreadknights, super dakka Flyrants and the S8/ap2 LoC.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If MCs didn't have armor saves, it would be over powered. But they do. Some of them having fething 2+ armor. There needs to be a real counter somewhere other than more plasma, more grav. This is actually a counter that DOESN'T hose meqs in the process. But I guess we can't have that.

The vast majority of multi-wound stuff in the daemons codex, including most MC's doesn't have an armour save... just saying.

Besides, the answer to the "oh noes, Riptides & Wraithknights are too OP!" isn't to make the Psilencer a single turn auto-counter to them, as it then becomes beyond broken against everything below those MC's.
Instead, we simply need to reign in the bare handful of problem MC's such as the Riptide/Wraithknight and to a lesser extent, Dreadknights, super dakka Flyrants and the S8/ap2 LoC.

Wraithknights aren't even a problem. Their armor sucks.

Additionally, the psilencer doesn't mean a thing to W1 models. There should be some advantage somewhere to W1 models. Because as it stands, MCs have all the advantages and no disadvantages.

Sorry if I don't have much concern for daemons and their 2++ rerollable insanity.

 Xenomancers wrote:
In a rhino with a hammer and 2 psycannons its 315 points I think. With Psilencers I think it would be 305. I was including the rhino into the cost.

*shrugs* Guess we just threw in different upgrades then.

In any case, the Strike Squad vs MC was really just to demonstrate that the GKs can pretty easily kill any MC of T6/3+ or even T6/5++ in a single round of combat, with pretty much any unit that they have. Strikes aren't the best option; they pretty much require Hammerhand+Falchions in order to pull it off and also not be bogged down against weaker enemies.

Purifiers or GKTs with a mix of Halberds+Hammers would be a better choice, likely. Interceptors probably have better things to do, and also can't charge out of a shunt so are better off focusing on guns.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't see anything wrong with that profile for the psycannon. S7 is not that amazing against AV 12, and the GK can't field the obscene number of shots of the Xeno lists.

The reworked silencer is not that broken, either. I'd like to see more force in the game actually as a hard counter to overpowered MCs. MCs are currently so much better than vehicles it's crazy.

I think the difference in my view and some other players is that I expect to take heavy casualties every game. Eldar and Tau players want to set up their units and win with only a few scratches on their paint. At least, that's the vibe I get from most Eldar/Tau players I have to play. Taking casualties is for meq lists. I don't bring anything to a match that I can't afford to lose, so the force/poison thing doesn't bother me at all. It's something that MCs have to pay attention to, though, unlike most of the weapon available to my BA.

Ultimately I believe that there are better ways to fix the Psycannon that are more logically consistent. Giving it a Haywire shot, for example; it's a single Haywire shot, which doesn't sound that amazing... until you realize that DE Haywire is also a single shot and is absolutely amazing anyways (for a few reasons, which I might elaborate later).

 Bill1138 wrote:
Whiskey, How long do you normally leave your daemonic Monstrous Creatures on the ground (not flying) within 24" of a Grey Knight unit that you know has a Psilencer, without either getting into close combat or moving out of there? If you know he has a Psilencer, are you really going to waste your Denial Warp Dice on other powers besides that Force? And if I pool enough Dice to get enough successes that you can't block it, Didn't I just sacrifice my ability to cast most of my other Psychic powers?

Force is useless if it the Weapon can't Wound when it needs to. And the Psilencer needs to inflict an unsaved Wound more than 50% of the time because there typically isn't a third try if if the other player's strategy is worth anything at all.

That is what Poison and Force do. They make the weapon capable of doing its job.

As far as Daemon MCs, flying, and my use thereof- I normally leave them to the internet, as I do not play Daemons nor do I have much interest in playing that army.

Also, anti-MC duty is not the job of the Psilencer at present; anti-multi-wound infantry is the job. This job isn't a bad one, but it's also a very limited one. That's really the problem that the Psilencer has: it can't fire on the move in any functional manner, and it has a single thing that it's passably good at killing.

Also, why do the GKs get to have a one-gun solution to the problem? As an example, "downgrading" to Poison 4+, means you inflict ~0.67 unsaved wounds to a T6/3+ MC. In order to "guarantee" a kill, you'll need two Psilencers. Why is that bad?

Also, why do all Daemon MCs automatically fly? While I don't know for sure, I'm pretty sure that there's a few Daemon MCs that can't fly. Why should we gak all over them in our quest to make Psilencers better?

Ultimately, this is really a risk-reward and cost-benefit issue. As an example, the new Skitarii Vanguard can take a 10-man squad and 3 Plasma Calivers, and cost ~190 points. They reliably kill a Dreadknight in a single round of shooting (~4.6 unsaved wounds). However, in order to do so, they must use one of one-use only Doctrina Imperatives to gain +3BS, which also imposes a -2WS penalty. Their Plasma Calivers cost 30 points each, and all have Gets Hot.

BS7 can mitigate Gets Hot on 9 shots quite well... for the turn that they have BS7. The Vanguards also have to get within 18"- which is not only the range of the Plasma Caliver, but also of their basic Radium Carbines (both of which are necessary to guarantee a DK kill). Vanguard are also T3/4+/6+++; while a 10-man squad has 11 wounds (the squad lead has 2W), at T3/4+/6+++, they're incredibly easy to remove. Skitarii also have no native access to transports... which means that a DK could kite Vanguards for an entire game.

What you are proposing is giving the ability to have a 140 point anti-MC "torpedo" that can shunt 30", has 12" Jump Infantry movement, and can reliably kill a MC every single turn. Not only that, but a typical MC will cost more than the squad- while Vanguard have more aggregate wounds, they're not nearly as mobile and have to be within 18" as opposed to 24"- oh, and the Vanguard's Plasma Calivers (which do most of the work of killing high-T enemies) also have Gets Hot, and cost 30 points per gun (IE, 2-3x as much as a Psilencer), and a single BS4 volley from Plasma Calivers has a quite high chance to kill one of the Plasma guys.

So unless you're suddenly going to say "Psilencers can have Gets Hot", then I would contend that Poison 3+ and Force is actually pretty broken.

Because again, there's nothing that prevents you from taking multiple Psilencers- every other army has to take multiple weapons for optimal results, and many are saddled with guns that can kill the wielder, as well as generally having shorter "optimal" weapon ranges (IE, 12" for Rapid Fire Plasma, 18" for Plasma Calivers, 12" for anti-MC Melta).

SGTPozy wrote:
Now let's reverse it:

What do Daemons have that can hurt Land Raiders?

Nothing. Just like how you don't have anything to hurt the Soul Grinder.

This comparison is flawed because Land Raiders are overpriced by a good chunk. Soul Grinders, OTOH, are pretty boss.

SGTPozy wrote:
"Force is useless if it the Weapon can't Wound when it needs to."

Multi-wound models are useless when they lose all winds after a single wound.

Which is worse for the game? Force to be useless (which only affects psykers) or multi-wound models (which affects every army).

This is why your suggestion is way too powerful; it invalidates too much (and due to IoM ally shenanigan half of the armies would have them).

Multi-wound models are already generally shat on by the preponderance of high strength blasts that can be thrown around (*cough* IA *cough*). Psilencers getting improved to a usable state isn't going to change that.

Also, Imperial "ally shenanigans" isn't particularly relevant- what do you want more, the bitchin' firepower against everything and point-affordability of Skitarii, or the high-expense anti-MC ability of GKs?

If you answered "GKs" then you answered wrong.

SGTPozy wrote:
I assumed that we were ignoring close combat hence why GKs 'need' a ranged anti-tank option even though they have S6 across the board and S10 Dreadknights.

So you're okay with poison 3+ AND force then? It would probably be the final push to make those units never seen in 40k again.

I agree that force is a good counter to MCs, but NOT when the force gun also wounds on a 3+.

MCs are vulnerable to poison/sniper and force but there shouldn't be a gun that has both; that's too OP.

To be fair, a lot of the problem comes from 2+ armor (or T8) MCs that can sit back at a distance that is far out of range of 90% of the weapons that can actually hurt them...

In any case, IMO a "ranged" anti-vehicle option for GKs would be something that is optimized around the 24" midrange shooting that the rest of the GK army is also designed around.

Experiment 626 wrote:
The vast majority of multi-wound stuff in the daemons codex, including most MC's doesn't have an armour save... just saying.

Besides, the answer to the "oh noes, Riptides & Wraithknights are too OP!" isn't to make the Psilencer a single turn auto-counter to them, as it then becomes beyond broken against everything below those MC's.
Instead, we simply need to reign in the bare handful of problem MC's such as the Riptide/Wraithknight and to a lesser extent, Dreadknights, super dakka Flyrants and the S8/ap2 LoC.

Dreadknights aren't too much of a problem for a good number of armies, as the majority of AP2/AP1 weapons are short ranged, typically 24" or less. Which is exactly where a DK wants to be, too. Additionally, many armies which lack AP2/AP1 shooting instead have access to reasonably costed melee units that can hold a Dreadknight in combat for a few turns. Sometimes you don't need to actually kill things if you can just tarpit it for the rest of the game.

Martel732 wrote:
Wraithknights aren't even a problem. Their armor sucks.

Additionally, the psilencer doesn't mean a thing to W1 models. There should be some advantage somewhere to W1 models. Because as it stands, MCs have all the advantages and no disadvantages.

Sorry if I don't have much concern for daemons and their 2++ rerollable insanity.

WKs can be problematic due to the fact that they're Toughness 8- a lot of things which are pretty scary to the typical T6/3+ MC aren't nearly as problematic for a WK. Consider the humble Krak Missile; S8 and AP3. Against a T6/3+ MC, you'll need ~4.8 hits from a Krak Missile to kill it; using a BS4 shooter, you'll need to fire ~7.2 shots. Call it 8 MLs, and you can kill a MC in one round (typical MC is 4 Wounds).

Against a WK... you'll need 18 MLs to kill it in one round, as it's T8 (S8 vs T8 is 4+/50% wound rate), assuming that you've got BS4 shooters- if you're saddled with BS3 shooters, you'll need 24 MLs. WKs being T8/6 Wounds makes them incredibly durable. Season with Jump MC status natively, and the fact that their best options are 36" range guns... and they quickly become an issue.

In any case, I would like to submit, again, the following Psycannon change:

Psycannon
Here be the new Psycannon- losing a shot and S7, in favor of 12" of extra range, AP3, and Psi-Shock. Oh, and a 24" Haywire bullet for glancing down AV of any and every flavor. Psycannons are now back in business as a versatile weapon platform viable for PAGKs and GKTs alike. Having up to 3 S6/AP3 shots at 36" is also quite nice- not only is it pretty dangerous to MCs (a Purifier or Purgation squad that sits still can kill a T6/3+ MC in a single turn, dealing exactly 4 Wounds), but MEQ in 5+ cover lose ~4.5 members every turn. Voila, passable for killing MCs, and pretty good at killing MEQ. Oh, and you can strip 4HPs per turn off of AV10, ~2.67 HPs off AV11, and ~1.34 HPs from AV12.

Or you can use the Haywire profile and strip ~2.22 HPs per turn from any AV value in the game. As in, there is no vehicle that will ever give you trouble ever again.

Psilencer
You want anti-multi-wound anything? You got it. Initial profile of S4/Shred/Force means reliable wounding against all things T3-T5, making it more viable without activating Force. The secondary profile is a single Fleshbane+Force+AP2 shot... which at first seems waaay over the top however...

It's one shot. In order to reliably guarantee a MC kill, you need two Psilencers. So for Strikes+GKTs and perhaps most importantly, Interceptors, you need 10-man squads. Moreover, trying to go MSU GKTs/Strikes with 5-man+Psilencer means that you either cannot guarantee a kill (and against T6/5++, 2 Psilencers with the above Fleshbane/Force single-shot profile, it's ~0.74 unsaved wounds- so not a guaranteed kill), or you need to "waste" multiple squads' shooting to get that guaranteed kill.

But having a buttload of shots with both Force and Poison 3+... yeah, not so cool. A single Fleshbane/Force shot isn't as bad. If necessary, it could be dropped to Poison 4+, but that means that you need 4 Psilencers to get a guaranteed kill; given that only Purifier and Purgation squads can really bring 4 Psilencers to the field, I'm inclined to go with Fleshbane; it still requires 2 weapons to guarantee a kill (and that also requires that no invulnerable save be taken), and the standard Strike/GKT/Interceptor squads are all limited at a maximum of two special weapons.

It brings a situation similar to the above mentioned Skitarii Vanguard- the Vanguard require three Plasma Calivers (their entire weapon allowance, as well as needing a 10-man squad), plus the rest of the squad's Radium Carbines, in order to guarantee a kill against T6/2+/5++ targets- like DKs or Riptides w/o Nova'd shields or FNP. For GKs to require a squad to take their full special weapon allowance- typically also requiring a full 10-man squad, I do not consider to be problematic, particularly when you consider that 2x Psilencers is much more flexible than 3x Plasma Calivers- oh, and the Psilencers can't kill your own dudes via Gets Hot.

Martel732 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If MCs didn't have armor saves, it would be over powered. But they do. Some of them having fething 2+ armor. There needs to be a real counter somewhere other than more plasma, more grav. This is actually a counter that DOESN'T hose meqs in the process. But I guess we can't have that.

The vast majority of multi-wound stuff in the daemons codex, including most MC's doesn't have an armour save... just saying.

Besides, the answer to the "oh noes, Riptides & Wraithknights are too OP!" isn't to make the Psilencer a single turn auto-counter to them, as it then becomes beyond broken against everything below those MC's.
Instead, we simply need to reign in the bare handful of problem MC's such as the Riptide/Wraithknight and to a lesser extent, Dreadknights, super dakka Flyrants and the S8/ap2 LoC.

Wraithknights aren't even a problem. Their armor sucks.

Additionally, the psilencer doesn't mean a thing to W1 models. There should be some advantage somewhere to W1 models. Because as it stands, MCs have all the advantages and no disadvantages.

Sorry if I don't have much concern for daemons and their 2++ rerollable insanity.

1. With Force activated, the Psilencer is capable of denying any FnP rolls to single wound models, so yes, it does have some functionality against certain W1 models due to the nature of instant death attacks.
And MC's have plenty of disadvantages... besides Force, anything with Poisoned attacks is brutal, as are any kind of S6-7 weapons with decent rate of fire. Cover is harder to claim. Most MC's are good and slow allowing for them to be tarpitted. In general MC's tend to cost near on 200pts, while some cost almost 300pts or more, yet all of them except for Wraith constructs can be one-shot'ed by a 10pts upgrade.

FMC's got massively nerfed in 7th.

MC's are good sure, but they have plenty of counters out there.

2. You have to purposefully set out to be a giant donkeycave to give a Daemon unit a re-rollable 2++, as well as pay the "Fateweaver Tax" to really ensure it doesn't blow up in your face... and Imperials can have re-rolled 2++ saves of their own in combats thanks to IG Priests, so hardly an "only Daemons" problem.

Whenever someone says "the game already has something that does that", invariably, they are always referring to something the Grey Knights don't have access to.

That fact (that thing that the Grey Knights don't have access to) should be a red flag to people that something is lacking.

Monstrous Creatures can be easily dealt with if an army has Snipers or Poison... but guess what...The Grey Knights don't have access to either of those. In the absense of any weapon capable of reliably harming high toughness units, the Grey Knights need one, and the Psilencer is sitting perfectly to fill that role, if it were just able to wound the higher Toughness models, which my proposal does.

To compare the effectiveness of each, I'll compare each of them to a Daemonprince (T5,3+,5++)

(current stationary) Psilencer: 24",S4,AP-,Heavy 6, Force
(6)(2/3)(1/3)(1/3) = 0.44 unsaved Wounds before chance of Force being calculated in.
(current mobile) Psilencer: 24",S4,AP-,Heavy 6, Force
(6)(1/6)(1/3)(1/3) = 0.11 unsaved Wounds before chance of Force being calculated in.
*Note that just about everyone who has fielded one is agreed that the current Psilencer is less than worthless.

(My proposal) Psilencer: 24",S4, AP-,Assault 6,Poisoned 3+, Force
(6)(2/3)(2/3)(1/3) = 0.89 unsaved Wounds before chance of Force being calculated in.

Results: against T5, 3+, 5++
0.11, current mobile profile, cannot harm T8
0.44, current stationary profile, cannot harm T8
0.89, my proposed profile, same chance to harm T8

What stands out?
My proposition uses a single profile that works evenly well across all toughnesses, allowing for greater survivability to units with better saves. Note that this weapon is taking the same slot that could have been used for an Incinerator or a Psycannon, and it is unable to harm AV >10, and is unlikely to deal more than a single unsaved Wound on most units. Grey Knights being such a small army means they can't afford for their weapons have the same lack of effectiveness that other armies can compensate for by bringing more units.

For psilencers we could make it like grave weapons.
instead of poison wounds on a roll= to the armor or invulnerable choice, whichever is the best. With a minimum of 5+.
So a demon with a 5++ would only be wounded on a 5+ but a dreadknight/ riptide would be wounded on a 2+.
Solves the high armor without destroying all demons.

(just a suggestion since it doesn't have ap in it they will still get a save but it would be more proportionate to the MC)

Whiskey144 wrote:
[

SGTPozy wrote:
Now let's reverse it:

What do Daemons have that can hurt Land Raiders?

Nothing. Just like how you don't have anything to hurt the Soul Grinder.

This comparison is flawed because Land Raiders are overpriced by a good chunk. Soul Grinders, OTOH, are pretty boss.

It may not have been the best example but the point still stands; Daemons don't have a ranged gun to take out all GK units so why should GKs?

Do Daemons have anti-MC guns? No. (Addressed to Bill).

Whiskey144 wrote:
[

SGTPozy wrote:
"Force is useless if it the Weapon can't Wound when it needs to."

Multi-wound models are useless when they lose all winds after a single wound.

Which is worse for the game? Force to be useless (which only affects psykers) or multi-wound models (which affects every army).

This is why your suggestion is way too powerful; it invalidates too much (and due to IoM ally shenanigan half of the armies would have them).

Multi-wound models are already generally shat on by the preponderance of high strength blasts that can be thrown around (*cough* IA *cough*). Psilencers getting improved to a usable state isn't going to change that.

Also, Imperial "ally shenanigans" isn't particularly relevant- what do you want more, the bitchin' firepower against everything and point-affordability of Skitarii, or the high-expense anti-MC ability of GKs?

If you answered "GKs" then you answered wrong.

Yes but it would be yet another gun that utterly destroy them an they don't need any more anti-them guns.
Also, no Tau player defends the IA but some GK players (not naming anyone) seems to want an equally OP gun because reasons.

I was merely stating that half of the armies would have access to them (just like Imperial Knights) which makes it worse.
If we went back to the 6th ed ally matrix (which made more sense) then it wouldn't be a problem as only one army would have access to it.
Anyway, I'd rather have a Dreadknight than any of the Skitarii units.

Whiskey144 wrote:
[

SGTPozy wrote:
I assumed that we were ignoring close combat hence why GKs 'need' a ranged anti-tank option even though they have S6 across the board and S10 Dreadknights.

So you're okay with poison 3+ AND force then? It would probably be the final push to make those units never seen in 40k again.

I agree that force is a good counter to MCs, but NOT when the force gun also wounds on a 3+.

MCs are vulnerable to poison/sniper and force but there shouldn't be a gun that has both; that's too OP.

To be fair, a lot of the problem comes from 2+ armor (or T8) MCs that can sit back at a distance that is far out of range of 90% of the weapons that can actually hurt them...

In any case, IMO a "ranged" anti-vehicle option for GKs would be something that is optimized around the 24" midrange shooting that the rest of the GK army is also designed around.

What size table do you play on as I can guarantee that the 'always out of range' argument is a complete and utter myth.

A ranged anti-vehicle option doesn't really suit the theme of the army (as fluff-wise they should be an ally 'dex).
However a short range melta power would suit them, something like:
8" S8 Ap1 WC2 melta

GK may wound MCs less reliably. But they often only need one unsaved wound, whereas most factions need 5 or so.

Would you rather wound on a 6+ with ID, or a 4+ without? Depends on the target, obviously.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GK could certainly use some shooty AT help. I think I like the idea of it being short range (12-24), though.

SGTPozy wrote:
Yes but it would be yet another gun that utterly destroy them an they don't need any more anti-them guns.

...I do not think you quite understand that the Psilencer gibbing multi-wound models isn't a particularly bad thing- Psilencers are restricted to a single army, require LoS, and are currently limited to being a stationary 24" range weapon. Psilencers make GKs a matchup that multi-wound infantry lose a lot of models to... but it's not like Psilencers are blapping massive units of Nobs off the table.

Here, have some maths:

For 2 Psilencers firing, then you can generally double the results above and be accurate. Quadruple them for the incredibly edge case of a full Purgation/Purifier Squad with all Psilencers (as that is currently a terrible way to equip those squads).

If, for example, you make it Assault 6, and add Poison 4+, then it can scale up against T5+; literally you can take the T4 block of results and apply it to T5+ if the Psilencer suddenly had Poison 4+. Which isn't a terrible addition either; against 3+ save MCs, you'll need a minimum of two Psilencers to guarantee a kill. However... I dislike Poison 4+, because it ends up shafting the Daemon MCs that have to rely on a 5++, and especially the ones that can't fly (I assume that there's a few that can't, at least).

Let's consider first the following profile:
Psilencer
24" Assault 6 S4 AP- Force, Shred

Compared to now, we exchange Heavy for Assault, to allow full fire-on-the-move functionality, while also adding Shred for more reliable wounding. Have some more math:


So just by adding Shred the Psilencer becomes significantly more capable- it reliably removes moderate-to-mediocre save infantry units, and is even passably capable of hurting better save and even some particularly high-T targets. Not only that, but Shred also improves the ability of the weapon against T3/T4 single-wound infantry models.

What if we swap Shred for S5?
Psilencer
24" Assault 6 S5 AP- Force

How interesting, wouldn't you say? S5+Force isn't that big a deal- in fact, S4+Shred is superior against everything except T6! S5 also allows Psilencers to provide some glancing fire to AV10; a single Psilencer with S5 and Assault 6 will remove ~1.33 HPs per turn from AV10, and ~0.67 HPs against AV11.

Perhaps the original idea of S5 Psilencers should return, hmm?

[For those who are curious, only T3/4+ is considered as the only multi-wound T3 infantry currently in the game are in the Skitarii army, which is all 4+ save T3 infantry; for T5, I skipped 6+ as I don't recall any multi-wound T5 regular infantry with 6+ saves, and for T6 I skipped 6+/4+ as again, I do not think that there are any T6 models with a 6+ or 4+ save, while T6/2+ is... not a good target to point a Psilencer at.]

SGTPozy wrote:
Also, no Tau player defends the IA but some GK players (not naming anyone) seems to want an equally OP gun because reasons.

I was merely stating that half of the armies would have access to them (just like Imperial Knights) which makes it worse.

I was merely pointing out that S8+ Large Blasts are the primary reason for a lack of multi-wound, middling-save infantry showing up- the IA was thrown out as an (admittedly pointed) example.

SGTPozy wrote:
If we went back to the 6th ed ally matrix (which made more sense) then it wouldn't be a problem as only one army would have access to it.

The 6th Ed Allies Matrix has its issues too- Sisters and BTs being Desperate Allies at one time might have made sense with them intended to draw a parallel between the Protestant/Catholic tensions that plagued Britain (and much of Europe) for a couple centuries, but the current fluff actually makes the Sisters and BT more likely to be very buddy-buddy.

You also don't really seem to get that GKs can't bring much to the table as an Allied Detachment, given that that severely limits the available options and GKs, being as expensive as they are, make a very poor "bolt-on" addition to an army.

SGTPozy wrote:
What size table do you play on as I can guarantee that the 'always out of range' argument is a complete and utter myth.

Hardly; it's simple math. For example, the Riptide can move 6+2D6" per turn, and is typically armed with a 60" range weapon system. The most commonly taken AP2/AP1 weapons (Plasma, Grav, Melta) have a range of 12-24", and many of these weapons are ideally situation at 12-18". Most of these weapons are carried by traditional Infantry (6" move). While you can put them on Bikers for a 12" move every turn... there's still the issue that the Riptide can be deployed such that it is out of LOS, and then it can JSJ back-and-forth between cover.

Further, the 60" range of a Riptide's IA means that the only practical limitation on whether or not it can shoot things is "can it get LOS". Even Grav Bikers have to work under the limitation of "are they in range". Riptides? Not so much.

For another example, there's the Wraithknight. It's typically armed with 36" range weapons, and as a Jump MC it can move 12" per turn. Once again, it can hang back out of range of a lot of the weapons that can hurt it. The things that can reliably damage a WK are also S8+, rather than S6+, making it generally more difficult to damage. Given that it has to be within 36", however, the weapons that can hurt it are likely in range... but those same weapons have such low RoF (typically 1 shot per turn) that they need an enormous- and generally impractical- amount of weapon saturation on the field.

So maybe against a WK this "out of range" argument is a myth. But Riptides? Yeah, good luck getting into range.

Oh, and to be clear, I never said "always". I said "most" weapons that can hurt a 'Tide are not going to be able to get into range. Lascannons are a poor solution to the problem, given that they are even more expensive than Plasma Guns, require the unit to sit still, and have a poor RoF that makes them bad at killing MCs in general.

SGTPozy wrote:
A ranged anti-vehicle option doesn't really suit the theme of the army (as fluff-wise they should be an ally 'dex).
However a short range melta power would suit them, something like:
8" S8 Ap1 WC2 melta

You did notice that my recommendation was a 24" range weapon? "Ranged" it may be, but it's no Lascannon; GK shooting is almost invariably focused around the 24" band, so I recommended a solution that fit that.

Also, a WC2, 8" melta shot is possibly the worst suggestion I have ever seen for GK anti-armor. At that range, you need to be within 4" to get 2D6 pen, which means that you're close enough for an assault, and you should probably just charge and punch the tank to death anyways. It doesn't help in the slightest bit- a GK anti-armor gun should be suited to the rest of the armies shooting- which is focused at the 24" band.

Regardless of GK fluff status affecting the nature of their army book, the fact is that GKs can be played as a stand-alone army. In fact, the only army that can't be played stand-alone is the Imperial Assassins. Given that they can be played as a stand-alone army, they should probably have some way to shoot a vehicle with a reasonable expectation of good results.

It doesn't have to be some kind of 48"+ deathbeam murdergun. It just needs to be suited to the rest of the armies shooting, which works best at ~18-24".

Bharring wrote:
GK may wound MCs less reliably. But they often only need one unsaved wound, whereas most factions need 5 or so.

Would you rather wound on a 6+ with ID, or a 4+ without? Depends on the target, obviously.

I'd say that this why Psilencers simply getting Assault instead of Heavy, and then either S5 or S4+Shred is probably the simplest&best solution- it makes them somewhat capable against MCs, but not so much so as to be gibbing them all over the place.

The other option is to give Psilencers a single "anti-MC" shot, and not really touch the current profile (other than making it Assault 6).

Though I'm pretty sure that the average MC is only 4 wounds, and not 5+... though WKs do have 6 (!) for some reason.

Bharring wrote:
GK could certainly use some shooty AT help. I think I like the idea of it being short range (12-24), though.

That 18-24" band where GK shooting is generally designed and optimized to be at? Yeah, that's exactly where any new AV functionality should go. 12" is a tad too short, IMO, and also doesn't sync well with the GK's strong emphasis on 18-24" shooting. But yes, no more than a 24" range weapon.

Which is why my current "no new model gubbins needed" concept is to let Psycannons fire an Assault 1 24" Haywire shot. Haywire is a fantastic way to fight vehicles, but at 24" it's limited in its ability to threaten things (unless you splurge for a big Interceptor Squad), and as a single Haywire shot it's also difficult-if-not-impossible for it to "instagib" vehicles, or hull them out with a very small number of weapons.

This also opens up the way for Purgation Squads to be improved quite nicely, IMO, as they have an easier time getting special weapon density (I assume that Purifiers would be limited to 2 specials max, though they would still be able to go 2 at 5-man for MSU builds).

Here my take on this. I don't think the GK need a weapon like the psilencer. If it is to remain it need substantial buffs to compete with a psycannon which is all around a pretty BA gun. Psycannon is not bad for MC so why do we need a weapon that excells at MC? What we need is an AP1 ranged weapon with some flare.

Psyorb blaster
Range 18" str special ap 1 assault 1 blast , gets hot.

special profile
1- no effect
2-5 auto wound/pen
6 auto wound/pen no saves of any kind - if the target has the daemon special rule it is removed from play.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Here my take on this. I don't think the GK need a weapon like the psilencer. If it is to remain it need substantial buffs to compete with a psycannon which is all around a pretty BA gun. Psycannon is not bad for MC so why do we need a weapon that excells at MC? What we need is an AP1 ranged weapon with some flare.

Psyorb blaster
Range 18" str special ap 1 assault 1 blast , gets hot.

special profile
1- no effect
2-5 auto wound/pen
6 auto wound/pen no saves of any kind - if the target has the daemon special rule it is removed from play.

That works too.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Here my take on this. I don't think the GK need a weapon like the psilencer. If it is to remain it need substantial buffs to compete with a psycannon which is all around a pretty BA gun. Psycannon is not bad for MC so why do we need a weapon that excells at MC? What we need is an AP1 ranged weapon with some flare.

Psyorb blaster
Range 18" str special ap 1 assault 1 blast , gets hot.

special profile
1- no effect
2-5 auto wound/pen
6 auto wound/pen no saves of any kind - if the target has the daemon special rule it is removed from play.

Psycannons themselves need some fixing- right now a Psycannon is basically just an AC+1... which is dumb. It ends up coming off as a "we're GKs, so we automatically get to be better because reasons", which IMO contributes to the general malaise that GKs as an army seem to attract.

Moreover, dropping S7+Rending (or S7+Lance, as has been suggested by others), in favor of a single-shot Haywire profile accomplishes the "I hate vehicles" facet of GK shooting. In fact, I would argue that it does it better. Of course, part of that is due to the fact that hulling things out generally works better, and fishing for an Explodes result... not so much.

Single shot haywire would suck since we don;t have enough guns as is. It works for dark eldar because they can take a ton of it but greyknights would have a vary limited amount.

It's not as bad as you make it out though; DE Haywire guns are actually pretty heavily limited; you can get 4 into a squad of Scourges, and you can get another onto a Talos as a twin-linked mount.

GKs are able to take Psycannons on all of their infantry units. Psycannons might be limited to having an alternate profile providing a single Haywire shot, but they can get a good amount of weapons into a list. The referenced proposal is also contingent upon changes to Psycannons to allow for the increased versatility of the Haywire shot being added.

Multi-shot Haywire at present is limited to the Skitarii, and Arc Rifles cost 15 points (IE, as much as a Plasma Gun) and are 24" Rapid Fire. Skitarii, however, are an army that is pretty much universally footslogging infantry and walker support.

GKs have a lot more mobility options in comparison- Interceptors with their 12" Jump Infantry movement and 30" shunt moves, DKs (12" Jump move+30" shunt), as well as native access to DTs.

Whiskey144 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Here my take on this. I don't think the GK need a weapon like the psilencer. If it is to remain it need substantial buffs to compete with a psycannon which is all around a pretty BA gun. Psycannon is not bad for MC so why do we need a weapon that excells at MC? What we need is an AP1 ranged weapon with some flare.

Psyorb blaster
Range 18" str special ap 1 assault 1 blast , gets hot.

special profile
1- no effect
2-5 auto wound/pen
6 auto wound/pen no saves of any kind - if the target has the daemon special rule it is removed from play.

Psycannons themselves need some fixing- right now a Psycannon is basically just an AC+1... which is dumb. It ends up coming off as a "we're GKs, so we automatically get to be better because reasons", which IMO contributes to the general malaise that GKs as an army seem to attract.

Moreover, dropping S7+Rending (or S7+Lance, as has been suggested by others), in favor of a single-shot Haywire profile accomplishes the "I hate vehicles" facet of GK shooting. In fact, I would argue that it does it better. Of course, part of that is due to the fact that hulling things out generally works better, and fishing for an Explodes result... not so much.

So your suggestion is to remove our only good weapon and make it a single shot haywire? because a psycannon is better than an assault cannon?

Oh good lord no, didn't you actually read the posts where I put in the suggestion?

I'm going to assume you didn't, so here it is again*:

Psycannon:
36" Salvo 2/3 S6 AP3 Psi-Shock
24" Assault 1 SX AP- Haywire

This allows you to choose between up to 3 S6/AP3 shots (IE, effective against T6/3+ MCs and anything T5 below and 3+ or worse), with up to 36" of range, and an automatic Perils just for getting successful hits on any Psykers that get shot by the weapon...

OR, a 24" Haywire shot.

So no, I am not destroying the "only good weapon" in the GK list- merely adjusting it to accommodate a secondary Haywire profile in addition to an adjusted "standard" profile.

*For those who may or may not inevitably complain about my repeated reposting of my suggestion... it's because nobody ever fething reads my proposals, and then when I reference a singular aspect of it they lose their gak and act like I'm the most evil fething bastard in the history of the world.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Here my take on this. I don't think the GK need a weapon like the psilencer. If it is to remain it need substantial buffs to compete with a psycannon which is all around a pretty BA gun. Psycannon is not bad for MC so why do we need a weapon that excells at MC? What we need is an AP1 ranged weapon with some flare.

Psyorb blaster
Range 18" str special ap 1 assault 1 blast , gets hot.

special profile
1- no effect
2-5 auto wound/pen
6 auto wound/pen no saves of any kind - if the target has the daemon special rule it is removed from play.

Your suggestion wins in my opinion


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I read your proposal, whiskey. I quite like it but I kinda prefer Xenomancer's new gun (I don't think that the psycannon should be ap 3).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What about this:

Purgation squads have this power (no other unit can get this).

S8 ap1 armourbane (Is that the rule where you do 2d6 armour pen? I'm away from my rulebook ATM)
WC2 or WC3

Every model in the unit gets to use this power (so you cast it once, then roll to hit for each model in the unit).

This gives Purgation teams two possible roles:
The first being its current role of a devastator equivalent.
The second being a close-range anti-armour killer that can also finish the target off in combat if it fails.

This also means that the force weapons and storm bolters are not wasted either since they will be like Strike squads but with good anti-vehicle powers.

Whiskey144 wrote:
Oh good lord no, didn't you actually read the posts where I put in the suggestion?

I'm going to assume you didn't, so here it is again*:

Psycannon:
36" Salvo 2/3 S6 AP3 Psi-Shock
24" Assault 1 SX AP- Haywire

This allows you to choose between up to 3 S6/AP3 shots (IE, effective against T6/3+ MCs and anything T5 below and 3+ or worse), with up to 36" of range, and an automatic Perils just for getting successful hits on any Psykers that get shot by the weapon...

OR, a 24" Haywire shot.

So no, I am not destroying the "only good weapon" in the GK list- merely adjusting it to accommodate a secondary Haywire profile in addition to an adjusted "standard" profile.

*For those who may or may not inevitably complain about my repeated reposting of my suggestion... it's because nobody ever fething reads my proposals, and then when I reference a singular aspect of it they lose their gak and act like I'm the most evil fething bastard in the history of the world.

Well - the AP3 is nice - and the 36" range. I'd have to play it to get the feel of it but it seems like it could have potential. Sorry didn't see the other part of your suggestion earlier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Here my take on this. I don't think the GK need a weapon like the psilencer. If it is to remain it need substantial buffs to compete with a psycannon which is all around a pretty BA gun. Psycannon is not bad for MC so why do we need a weapon that excells at MC? What we need is an AP1 ranged weapon with some flare.

Psyorb blaster
Range 18" str special ap 1 assault 1 blast , gets hot.

special profile
1- no effect
2-5 auto wound/pen
6 auto wound/pen no saves of any kind - if the target has the daemon special rule it is removed from play.

Your suggestion wins in my opinion


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I read your proposal, whiskey. I quite like it but I kinda prefer Xenomancer's new gun (I don't think that the psycannon should be ap 3).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What about this:

Purgation squads have this power (no other unit can get this).

S8 ap1 armourbane (Is that the rule where you do 2d6 armour pen? I'm away from my rulebook ATM)
WC2 or WC3

Every model in the unit gets to use this power (so you cast it once, then roll to hit for each model in the unit).

This gives Purgation teams two possible roles:
The first being its current role of a devastator equivalent.
The second being a close-range anti-armour killer that can also finish the target off in combat if it fails.

This also means that the force weapons and storm bolters are not wasted either since they will be like Strike squads but with good anti-vehicle powers.

Totally board with this. or something like it. How about this. Remove the force sword from the purgations. In it's place they get some sort of psyonic emitter or focusing device. They should have a anti infantry and an anti armor spell in exchange for hammer hand and banishment.

1 gives all their range attacks fleshbane and armor bane.
1 gives their ranged attacks instant death.

with these changes they should cost more probably in the area of 23-25 points each. Man that would be a killer and fun squad to play.

SGTPozy wrote:
I read your proposal, whiskey. I quite like it but I kinda prefer Xenomancer's new gun (I don't think that the psycannon should be ap 3).

Why not? Currently the best low-AP shooting that GKs get is either via vehicles- typically Stormravens that do not come on until Turn 2 at the earliest (and that's if you roll lucky), via Daemonhammers/DK combat, or by fishing for 6s with Rending.

SGTPozy wrote:
What about this:

Purgation squads have this power (no other unit can get this).

S8 ap1 armourbane (Is that the rule where you do 2d6 armour pen? I'm away from my rulebook ATM)
WC2 or WC3

Every model in the unit gets to use this power (so you cast it once, then roll to hit for each model in the unit).

This gives Purgation teams two possible roles:
The first being its current role of a devastator equivalent.
The second being a close-range anti-armour killer that can also finish the target off in combat if it fails.

This also means that the force weapons and storm bolters are not wasted either since they will be like Strike squads but with good anti-vehicle powers.

Armorbane provides 2D6 Armor Penetration, yes. The Melta rule also provides 2D6 armor pen, but only at half-range; IE a typical 12" range meltagun can only benefit from Armorbane at 6".

There's also some... other... issues with your proposal. First off, you didn't actually reference a range value, so I'm assuming that you're going to go with your initial 8" range suggestion. Which makes this a last-ditch option; how are you supposed to get a Purgation Squad that close? Rhinos are AV11/11/10 3HPs, which for how cheap they are is nice... but it's still not super durable, and will likely be shot down before it ever gets close enough to deliver the Purgation squad. Not only that, but how does a Purgation Squad get to assault whatever they zap with that power, if you put them in a Rhino?

If you throw them into a Land Raider... congratulations, that's two Heavy Support slots spent on a Hail Mary option to try to kill vehicles. Even if it's Armorbane for the full range rather than using Melta (making it 4" Armorbane range), you're still going to have to get so close that you're going to be able to charge it... and if they're supposed to charge in to finish things off, then that means that they have to spend points on combat upgrades. Purgation Squads don't want to be charging anything, they want to shoot it to death, especially since the only thing going for a Purgation Squad is that it can get 4 special weapons.

Plus, due to the way that the Brotherhood of Psykers rule works, the entire squad is treated as a single "model" for the purposes of psychic tests... which means that only one member is considered to manifest the power- so you can't have an S8/AP1 Armorbane shot from every member.

Also... the simpler solution is to give them Vortex of Doom. But I doubt that you'd support that, given that it means that Purgation Squads can now cast a Str D/AP1 Vortex blast at things. Nevermind that it's only 12", is WC3, and causes an auto-Perils result if you fail to cast the power.

In truth, to improve Purgation Squads needs only two things:

1) Improve GK special weapons, particularly when used on non-Relentless (IE, PAGK) Infantry models
2) Change Purifiers to be 2 special weapons, regardless of squad size; this allows Purifiers to roll MSU with double specials, but prevents them from overshadowing Purgation squads in terms of total weapon density.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Well - the AP3 is nice - and the 36" range. I'd have to play it to get the feel of it but it seems like it could have potential. Sorry didn't see the other part of your suggestion earlier.

It's okay; I know that I tend to bury such recommendations in a wall of logic, reasoning, and math... though that's basically par for the course in Proposed Rules /shrugs.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Totally board with this. or something like it. How about this. Remove the force sword from the purgations. In it's place they get some sort of psyonic emitter or focusing device. They should have a anti infantry and an anti armor spell in exchange for hammer hand and banishment.

1 gives all their range attacks fleshbane and armor bane.
1 gives their ranged attacks instant death.

with these changes they should cost more probably in the area of 23-25 points each. Man that would be a killer and fun squad to play.

Part of the problem with this is that it presumably would require redoing the Sanctic tree... which I rather doubt will happen. Giving Purgation Squads access to the Vortex of Doom power would be a simpler, cleaner, and overall more elegant solution.

Also, I rather like that Purgation Squads have NF Swords; not only does it contribute to the overall flavor of the army, but it also makes them potentially very risky to assault- not only will the majority of their attacks be AP3, but if they're armed with Psilencers and activated Force, then all their attacks in combat will be Instant Death too!

"Part of the problem with this is that it presumably would require redoing the Sanctic tree... which I rather doubt will happen. Giving Purgation Squads access to the Vortex of Doom power would be a simpler, cleaner, and overall more elegant solution."

Thought about but it has issues (vortex). it requires 3 warp charges so they wouldn't be able to cast it. Plus. That realistically needs 7 warp charges to go off and almost autoatically perils at 7 dice so it's kinda to risky. Making Purgation ML3 would also just be insanity.

I was just thinking give them some special unique powers kind of like harlequin spirit seer. I agree force swords are pretty iconic for GK. I just consider them ranges specialist and they have adapted a different method to channel their powers.

Whiskey144 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
I read your proposal, whiskey. I quite like it but I kinda prefer Xenomancer's new gun (I don't think that the psycannon should be ap 3).

Why not? Currently the best low-AP shooting that GKs get is either via vehicles- typically Stormravens that do not come on until Turn 2 at the earliest (and that's if you roll lucky), via Daemonhammers/DK combat, or by fishing for 6s with Rending.

SGTPozy wrote:
What about this:

Purgation squads have this power (no other unit can get this).

S8 ap1 armourbane (Is that the rule where you do 2d6 armour pen? I'm away from my rulebook ATM)
WC2 or WC3

Every model in the unit gets to use this power (so you cast it once, then roll to hit for each model in the unit).

This gives Purgation teams two possible roles:
The first being its current role of a devastator equivalent.
The second being a close-range anti-armour killer that can also finish the target off in combat if it fails.

This also means that the force weapons and storm bolters are not wasted either since they will be like Strike squads but with good anti-vehicle powers.

Armorbane provides 2D6 Armor Penetration, yes. The Melta rule also provides 2D6 armor pen, but only at half-range; IE a typical 12" range meltagun can only benefit from Armorbane at 6".

There's also some... other... issues with your proposal. First off, you didn't actually reference a range value, so I'm assuming that you're going to go with your initial 8" range suggestion. Which makes this a last-ditch option; how are you supposed to get a Purgation Squad that close? Rhinos are AV11/11/10 3HPs, which for how cheap they are is nice... but it's still not super durable, and will likely be shot down before it ever gets close enough to deliver the Purgation squad. Not only that, but how does a Purgation Squad get to assault whatever they zap with that power, if you put them in a Rhino?

If you throw them into a Land Raider... congratulations, that's two Heavy Support slots spent on a Hail Mary option to try to kill vehicles. Even if it's Armorbane for the full range rather than using Melta (making it 4" Armorbane range), you're still going to have to get so close that you're going to be able to charge it... and if they're supposed to charge in to finish things off, then that means that they have to spend points on combat upgrades. Purgation Squads don't want to be charging anything, they want to shoot it to death, especially since the only thing going for a Purgation Squad is that it can get 4 special weapons.

Plus, due to the way that the Brotherhood of Psykers rule works, the entire squad is treated as a single "model" for the purposes of psychic tests... which means that only one member is considered to manifest the power- so you can't have an S8/AP1 Armorbane shot from every member.

Also... the simpler solution is to give them Vortex of Doom. But I doubt that you'd support that, given that it means that Purgation Squads can now cast a Str D/AP1 Vortex blast at things. Nevermind that it's only 12", is WC3, and causes an auto-Perils result if you fail to cast the power.

In truth, to improve Purgation Squads needs only two things:

1) Improve GK special weapons, particularly when used on non-Relentless (IE, PAGK) Infantry models
2) Change Purifiers to be 2 special weapons, regardless of squad size; this allows Purifiers to roll MSU with double specials, but prevents them from overshadowing Purgation squads in terms of total weapon density.

I didn't see the S6 so I guess that's okay then (I only glanced over it).

Yes I meant 8". Can't they deep strike? If they can't then I'd day that they can now.

They can charge if they didn't disembark that turn (just like everyone else) so they'll only be able to charge later on in the game. I'd also allow them to take melee weapons if they cannot now.

It would be armourbane so they'll destroy anything within range. Storm Ravens would probably be good for my suggestion; drop them out and destroy some vehicles!

Whilst traditionally Purgation squads want to stay back, this proposition would play completely different (maybe it should just be a new squad then) as I'd be a squad full of meltaguns essentially.

I'm well aware of Brotherhood of Psykers, so it'd act like Warp Blast for Tyranids where the number of shots fired equals the number of models in the unit with this power.

Maybe you could pay to upgrade the squad to have Vortex of Doom instead? I am neutral on that as GW is pushing Strength D things in the game (IK and new Bloodthirster).

It is silly that Purifiers can have 4 special weapons so yes, that should change.

 Xenomancers wrote:
"Part of the problem with this is that it presumably would require redoing the Sanctic tree... which I rather doubt will happen. Giving Purgation Squads access to the Vortex of Doom power would be a simpler, cleaner, and overall more elegant solution."

Thought about but it has issues (vortex). it requires 3 warp charges so they wouldn't be able to cast it. Plus. That realistically needs 7 warp charges to go off and almost autoatically perils at 7 dice so it's kinda to risky. Making Purgation ML3 would also just be insanity.

I was just thinking give them some special unique powers kind of like harlequin spirit seer. I agree force swords are pretty iconic for GK. I just consider them ranges specialist and they have adapted a different method to channel their powers.

Pretty sure that the current psychic rules actually use ML as a measure of how many powers a unit can generate as well as the amount of WC it contributes to the army- I've gone through the BRB several times and can't find anything that says that you have to have a ML=WC to cast a power. I remember that in 6th Edition it was like that, but as far as I can tell, 7th Edition changed it when it moved to an entirely separate psychic phase.

To be clear, I'm not really in favor of giving Purgation squads Vortex of Doom; I'd rather that we just fixed the weapon options so that Purgation squads are a good way to get weapon saturation, and then fix Purifiers so that Purifiers are no longer 2 specials per 5 guys. Purifiers can still definitely be 2 specials at a minimum squad size, but they should cap at that amount to prevent them from infringing on Purgation squads the way that they currently do.

Of course, I certainly wouldn't turn down a return of Astral Aim...

SGTPozy wrote:
I didn't see the S6 so I guess that's okay then (I only glanced over it).

Le sigh. See, this is the sort of thing that makes me repeat myself over and over that makes some people mad. Because nobody bothers to actually read what I say. I will also point out that my Psycannon recommendation also loses Rending.

SGTPozy wrote:
Yes I meant 8". Can't they deep strike? If they can't then I'd day that they can now.

No, for GK models to be able to DS they either have to have the rule specifically included in the unit entry, OR be equipped with TDA. Purgation Squads have neither. Moreover, being able to DS in doesn't fix the problem.

My original idea of including a psychically-boosted melta weapon was that such a weapon would have 18" of range; while this means that it has to be within 9" in order to gain Armorbane, it's still going to be able to do something if you were, for example, to DS in some GKTs with such a weapon and they scattered out of the 9" melta range.

Your proposal means that the Purgation Squad is functionally dead weight unless they get within 8".

SGTPozy wrote:
They can charge if they didn't disembark that turn (just like everyone else) so they'll only be able to charge later on in the game. I'd also allow them to take melee weapons if they cannot now.

So in other words they can stand around and get shot in the face for a turn. There's a reason why it's incredibly rare to stick punchy things into transports that they can't assault out of.

The problem is also not "they can't take combat weapons". The problem is that the selling point of a Purgation squad is that they bring a greater special weapon density to the field... and if they're in combat, then they cannot use the expensive guns that they brought to the party.

SGTPozy wrote:
It would be armourbane so they'll destroy anything within range. Storm Ravens would probably be good for my suggestion; drop them out and destroy some vehicles!

Good luck reliably bring a Stormraven on. Let us also not forget that the conventional wisdom of Stormravens- or really any Hover Flyer- is that to Hover is death. Which means that the Purgation Squad is basically parachuting out of the back... which means that they count as DS'ing in... which means they can't assault.

Real brilliant idea man, gotta give it to you, I could never have thought of something so idiotic brilliant!

SGTPozy wrote:
Whilst traditionally Purgation squads want to stay back, this proposition would play completely different (maybe it should just be a new squad then) as I'd be a squad full of meltaguns essentially.

Purgations, as I have mentioned, are defined by their special weapon density. A better choice for receiving such a... questionable... power would be either Purifiers (who already have the amazing Cleansing Flame) or Interceptors (who are Jump Infantry).

What do you think? Should Purifiers, an amazing assault/anti-tarpit unit, or Interceptors, who can easily maneuver into range- especially with that slick 30" shunt move- get this power?

I think Interceptors, because I could totally use that suggestion to absolutely destroy a Riptide! not really, just buying FNP means it removes ~2.5 wounds, at which point the Interceptors die like bitches to the 'Tides IA

SGTPozy wrote:
I'm well aware of Brotherhood of Psykers, so it'd act like Warp Blast for Tyranids where the number of shots fired equals the number of models in the unit with this power.

Maybe you could pay to upgrade the squad to have Vortex of Doom instead? I am neutral on that as GW is pushing Strength D things in the game (IK and new Bloodthirster).

Vortex of Doom has its own issues, the same way that your proposal is not without problems. In any case, I'm not super keen on that idea anyways- I find it simpler to simply fix the GK specials and then make sure that Purgation squads are the solution for special weapon saturation. It also helps fix the major problem of how some GK specials do not play well with PAGKs.

As far as I'm concerned, the only issue GKs have at the moment (beside Purgation squads being absolutely pointless atm,) is that Psycannons are a salvo weapon.

Psycannons being the only 'long' range high str weapon that foot GKs can take, yet now a weapon that only terminators can effectively use without neutering their unit is a big problem. Suddenly, Strikes, Interceptors and Purgation squads are down a weapon and are dependent on a flamer weapon for anything above str 4 if they want to be able to move/charge.