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Experiment 626 wrote:
No way to Fleshbane + Force. You're effectively at this point removing every single T4/T5 non-2+ save unit from the game.
Anything that has a solid chance at nuking a Riptide or Wraithknight in one go is going to be ridiculously OP vs. everything that's below that level... How does essentially removing the likes of half the Daemon codex, 'Nid Warriors/Raveners, Wraiths, Ogryns/Bullgryns, Nobz/Biker Nobz, Flashgits, etc... really improve the game?

If you want Fleshbane, then Force has to go. Otherwise, simply upping the range to 36" and swaping Heavy 6 for Salvo 4/6 is more than enough of a boost to the current incarnation of the Psilencer.
Its purpose is not to reliably one-shot the most powerful MC's in the game. It's supposed to be a way to effectively counter multi-wound T4/5 units that don't sport high saves, of which almost every non-Marine book has at least one or two such units.

While I agree that Fleshbane is a terrible idea for Psilencers if they retain Force, I would also like to point out that a fair number of the models you've listed off are already fairly rare on the table anyway. That's not to say that it's perfectly okay to break Psilencers into megadeath overpowered status because the things that will piss themselves in fear about one won't even be on the table- merely to point out that multi-wound T4 models already suffer from a number of meta-related issues, many of which stem from the core mechanics. It's also worth noting that:

-Wraiths do not care about Psilencers, as the likelihood of pushing wounds onto T5/3++ Wraiths is very low
-Ogryns and Bullgryns are in a similar boat, though Ogryn less so on account of being only 5+ armor

Anything that's T3 and multi-wound is going to be way more afraid of a Psycannon being pointed their way, since the Psycannon has infinitely better AP, superior Strength (IE, more reliable wounding), and Rending, making it far more dangerous- and reliable.

IMO Psilencers seem to have two primary roles that were originally envisioned for them:

1) Act as ranged anti-horde infantry
2) Act as a counter to multi-wound T4- and only T4, it would seem- infantry

The problem is that it doesn't do either job very well- the Psycannon will, at worst, equal a Psilencer in performance (more likely is that the Psycannon will be better than the Psilencer) against T3 infantry, while completely obsoleting the Psilencer as a weapon against T4+ models. The performance difference really is that big.

Psilencers are only passably good at killing T4 multi-wound, to the point that it's not viable- at present- to take a Psilencer for that purpose, when a Psycannon can diversify so much.

Of course, Psycannons being made the GK "god gun" to do everything was a terrible idea that has only made the Psilencer's problems worse.

Experiment 626 wrote:
I wouldn't bother with Armourbane... it would just make it way too good at HP'ing all vehicles in general to death at that point. (not to mention add a heinous amount of added dice rolling to work out these effects!)

Besides, you have an excellent answer already to those supposedly problematic Soul Grinders in Dreadknights. Outside of the dice really favouring the Daemon player, a Dreadknight will routinely smoke a Soul Grinder that hasn't been given at least a couple of augments. (or is under the effects of Invis, but no Daemon player in their right mind will throw that on a Grinder unless it's their absolute last unit, at which point, you've probably won anyways!)
The DK has higher WS & I, can fight at S10, can boost it's own invuln to 4++ quite easily, and is much faster than the Grinder to begin with, allowing it to get the charge off. (even against Slaany Grinders, you're still slightly faster, and 9/10 Grinders will be likely be Nurgle or Tzeentch anyways.)

Lose the Rending, and instead look at something like say Shred, and/or the idea of giving it the ability to inflict -1 to invulns. (or even the idea of it bypassing all augments to any invulnerable save, essentially meaning Daemons can only ever at best get their basic 5++ vs. Psycannon shots)

It's really important to remember that the GK's "most effective" answers to AV13+ are either:

1) Psycannons, due to Rending+weight of fire
2) Getting into combat

As a Daemons player, I'm sure you'll admit that getting into combat is simply not a good answer- yes, it will work.... if you get there. And that's really the kicker. The Grey Knights don't really have assault units that are considered good compared to, say, TWC or Wraiths- there is the Dreadknight, yes- but DKs are expensive and also want to get right into the sweet spot of at least half, if not 75%+ of the AP2/AP1 weapons in the game. Not only that, but the only other "fast" assault unit available to the GKs is the Interceptor Squad.

Yeah, 24 ppm for a T4/3+/1W mang with Jump Infantry status. He comes with a Force weapon, Stormbolter, Frag/Krak/Psyk-out 'nades, and the personal teleporter that gives him Jump status. And he can admittedly make a 30" shunt move once per game... so he could assault something- oh wait, he can't assault after a shunt move. So he can shunt 30", and unless you can shunt/DS in other things with it they'll likely either be shot to death or never get to charge something important, being tied up and bogged down by some tarpit for the rest of the game.

So I'm not impressed with GK options for using assault as an anti-vehicle option- remember, Soul Grinders aren't the only thing around, there's also Land Raiders, Monoliths, Leman Russes, the myriad other AV12/13 front armor vehicles that also tend to have guns with a 36"+ range. Realistically speaking, GKs just need a dedicated anti-vehicle/-MC weapon (IMO, it should be a mid-range style melta weapon).

I do certainly agree that Psycannons shouldn't be Armorbane, but due to the amount of screeching that I often hear when I suggest "hey guys, what if Psycannons didn't have Rending?" has gotten to the point that I gave up on removing it, and instead am recommending that Psycannons become S6 instead of 7, and Salvo 2/3 rather than 2/4. Due to terrible Salvo rules, Psycannons should be kicked up to 30-36", so that non-Relentless infantry (who are technically the most common user of Psycannons, based purely on who exactly can take one, and in what numbers) are actually able to leverage Psycannons when moving around.

I'd also be totally cool with Psycannons or Psilencers getting some kind of "oh, your invuln is not so good anymore" ability.

As an aside, DE Wych Cult units, with one exception (Hesperax) only get their invulns in combat.... though they should totally get that invuln against Overwatch fire too, since that'd be a huge buff to their durability in combat.

Fine. No Armorbane for the Psycannon. The rest of the proposal is perfectly valid.

Psilencer: 36” S4, AP-, Salvo 4/6, Fleshbane, Force

Force: If the Grey Knights use 2 Warp Dice to cast Force, and the opponent does the same:
50% chance of 1 harnessed Warp Charge, and a 25% chance of 2.
30.5% chance of denying at least 1 Warp Charge, 2.8% chance of denying 2.
34.75% chance of being successfully cast with 1 Warp Charge, 24.3% chance of being successfully cast with 2 Warp Charges.
That’s a 59% chance of successfully being cast.

To-Hit: Grey Knights hit on a 3+ with their BS4. This is a 2/3 chance to Hit.

To-Wound: With Fleshbane, the Psilencer would wound on a 2+. This is a 5/6 chance to Wound.

Saves: To my understanding, multi-wound models typically have at least a 3+ save. This is a 1/3 chance of not being saved.

So, the statistical number of wounds caused by a stationary Psilencer is calculated (6)(2/3)(5/6)(1/3)=60/54 = 1.11 Wounds.
Once you figure in the odds of successfully casting Force, that brings it down to 0.66 Instant Death Wounds.

The Statistical number of wounds caused by a mobile Psilencer is calculated (4)(2/3)(5/6)(1/3)=40/54 = 0.74 Wounds
Once you figure in the odds of successfully casting Force, that brings it down to 0.44 Instant Death Wounds.

The same unit firing a Lascannon would have a chance calculated (1)(2/3)(5/6)(1/1)=10/18
= 0.55 Wounds which are Instant Death against models up to T4. The Difference being that the Lascannon is also very good at destroying vehicles, while the Psycannon is incapable of even glancing better than AV10.
The Lascannon also has a 48” range whereas the proposed Psilencer has 18/36” range.

The Psilencer is NOT overpowered with Fleshbane and Force. Force is useless on the weapon without Fleshbane, and the weapon is pointless without Force.


Psycannon: 36”, S7, AP4, Salvo 2/4, Rending
against AV13, 5++ (Soulgrinder)

To-Hit: 2/3 chance to Hit.

Armor Penn: A roll of 6 is made a Penetrating hit because of Rending 1/6 Penetrating Hits

Save: 2/3 failed Invulnerable Saves

So statistically the damage dealt to a Soulgrinder by a stationary Psycannon is (4)(2/3)(1/6)(2/3) = 16/54
= 0.30 Penetrating Hits, with a 1/6 chance of an Explodes Result, bringing the chance of a one-shot down to 0.05 Explosions.

The Statistical damage dealt to a Soulgrinder by a mobile Psycannon is (2)(2/3)(1/6)(2/3) = 8/54
= 0.15 Penetrating Hits, with a 1/6 chance of an Explodes result, bringing the chance of a one-shot down to 0.025 Explosions.

The same unit firing a Lascannon would have a chance calculated to (1)(2/3)(1/2)(2/3) = 4/18
= 0.22 Penetrating Hits, with a 1/6 chance of an Explodes Result, bringing the chance of a one-shot down to 0.04 Explosions.


This proposed Psilencer and Psycannon have comparable damage potential to the Lascannon for their relative specialties. However, Whereas the Space Marines are giving up only a bolter along with the point cost of the Lascannon, the Grey Knights give up a Nemesis Force Sword, Storm Bolter on top of the point costs. This needs to be factored in when determining the appropriate prices for these units.

The Lascannon costs 20pts. The difference between a Bolter and Storm Bolter is worth at least a few points, and the Nemesis Force Sword is worth at least a few more. And the Psilencer isn't able to damage vehicles above AV10 at all, so that should be a bit more of a discount.

So, with these new profiles the prices on the Psilencer and Psycannon need to stay exactly where they are.

 Bill1138 wrote:
Fine. No Armorbane for the Psycannon. The rest of the proposal is perfectly valid.
[...]
Saves: To my understanding, multi-wound models typically have at least a 3+ save. This is a 1/3 chance of not being saved.

[Emphasis mine]

I want to just pull this part out, but this isn't actually true.

In fact, off the top of my head I can think of only two multi-wound models with a 3+ save of any kind- Tau Crisis Suits, IG Bullgryns, and Necron Wraiths. Other saves, OTOH...

4+/5+

And that's just off the top of my head! I'm sure that there's a few more that I'm forgetting. For giggles, I decided to also throw in multi-wound 2+ save models:

I mean, I can literally think of around twice as many 2+ save multi-wound models than I can think of 3+ save examples, and I just dredged up around 5 or 6 times as many 4+ or poorer examples.

The simple answer is that if Psilencers get Fleshbane, then it should have two "modes"- one with Force, and one with Fleshbane... but not one with both.

 Bill1138 wrote:
The Psilencer is NOT overpowered with Fleshbane and Force. Force is useless on the weapon without Fleshbane, and the weapon is pointless without Force.

I rather disagree- if it keeps Force, then IMO all it needs is S5- that makes it more reliable against T4 multi-wound, and viable for engaging T5 multi-wound. Even then there are still some people who have completely lost it over that.

 Bill1138 wrote:
This proposed Psilencer and Psycannon have comparable damage potential to the Lascannon for their relative specialties. However, Whereas the Space Marines are giving up only a bolter along with the point cost of the Lascannon, the Grey Knights give up a Nemesis Force Sword, Storm Bolter on top of the point costs. This needs to be factored in when determining the appropriate prices for these units.

The Lascannon costs 20pts. The difference between a Bolter and Storm Bolter is worth at least a few points, and the Nemesis Force Sword is worth at least a few more. And the Psilencer isn't able to damage vehicles above AV10 at all, so that should be a bit more of a discount.

So, with these new profiles the prices on the Psilencer and Psycannon need to stay exactly where they are.

I'd like to point out that you still haven't considered this idea:

Psychic Melta Powers Go!

That seems like a really good option for an anti-vehicle and anti-MC weapon, don't you think?

Incidentally, what would everyone think about the following changes to Strike Squads;

-Strike Squad Justicars may take Teleport Homers
-Strike Squads gain the Scout USR

This would allow you to scout-move a little bit forward to get an accurate DS. Perhaps combined with a transport of some kind, and you could use it to accurately DS in some melta to deal with vehicles- especially with the addition of the aforementioned new GK-specific melta weapon.

Whiskey144 wrote:
I'd like to point out that you still haven't considered this idea:

Psychic Melta Powers Go!

Spoiler:

Psi-Melta
18" Assault 1 S8 AP1 Melta, Force

That seems like a really good option for an anti-vehicle and anti-MC weapon, don't you think?

Incidentally, what would everyone think about the following changes to Strike Squads;

-Strike Squad Justicars may take Teleport Homers
-Strike Squads gain the Scout USR

This would allow you to scout-move a little bit forward to get an accurate DS. Perhaps combined with a transport of some kind, and you could use it to accurately DS in some melta to deal with vehicles- especially with the addition of the aforementioned new GK-specific melta weapon.

On both of these points I don't believe we will will come to an agreement.

7th Edition is all about the shooting phase, and the Grey Knights are hurting because they don't have any cost-effective options with better than a 24" range.

I don't care for your "better melta" suggestion because it has only an 18" range for an army with a practical max of 24". Also, your proposed new gun only benefits from melta within 9". Short of Shunting or Deep Striking dangerously close to enemy vehicles, that's not going to be useful for the Grey Knights. It also bears the problem that it is a new weapon to replace the Psycannon instead of fixing it. Here's my math on the topic.

If we compare my suggested Psycannon, a Lascannon, and your proposed "better melta" against a Soulgrinder:
The statistical damage dealt to a Soulgrinder by a stationary Psycannon is (4)(2/3)(1/6)(2/3) = 16/54
= 0.30 Penetrating Hits, with a 1/6 chance of an Explodes Result, bringing the chance of a one-shot down to 0.049 Explosions.

The statistical damage dealt to a Soulgrinder by a mobile Psycannon is (2)(2/3)(1/6)(2/3) = 8/54
= 0.15 unsaved Penetrating Hits, with a 1/6 chance of an Explodes result, bringing the chance of a one-shot down to 0.025 Explosions.

The statistical damage dealt to a Soulgrinder by a stationary Lascannon is (1)(2/3)(1/2)(2/3) = 4/18
= 0.22 unsaved Penetrating Hits, with a 1/6 chance of an Explodes Result, bringing the chance of a one-shot down to 0.037 Explosions.

The statistical damage dealt to a Soulgrinder by your better melta past 9" is (1)2/3)(1/3)(2/3) = 4/27
= 0.074 unsaved glancing hits, + 0.074 unsaved penetrating hits, with a 1/3 chance of an explode result, resulting in 0.0247 Explosions.
Outside of spitting distance, the the Psycannon I proposed is better at destroying vehicles than your proposed better-melta.

The Grey Knights need good firepower with decent range, and your melta suggestion doesn't offer that.

And I showed you my math for the Psilencer with Fleshbane and Force, and that it is not more powerful than other weapons that already exist and are available to the other Imperial factions' infantry. It seems to me that you reject the suggestion out of hand with your reasoning having nothing to do with the balance of firepower. Even with Fleshbane and Force, it is a hair better at anti-hoard than a Lascannon, and that isn't saying much. It only shines if it has a non-laughable chance at killing high toughness Monstrous Creatures.

As for Scout, the problem is that Deep Striking a few inches outside of their deployment zone is not useful to the Grey Knights. It leaves them in the middle of no-man's land where they have to trudge through enemy fire to get to anything. The purpose of Deep Strike is to get units to places they either couldn't get to otherwise or where they need to get to more quickly than they could by going by ground. Deep Striking on Scout units does neither of these things.

I maintain, that the Grey Knights should have access to an Infiltrate unit, but the next best thing would be Rites of Teleportation that only scatters 1d6 (I suggested making this a Special Rule for the Strike Squads). I believe Scout is useless for the Grey Knights.

How could anyone view fleshbane AND force with 6 shots as balanced?
That would make it the most OP gun in the game! Anyone would think that people just want to return to the Ward Dex's level of cheese.

SGTPozy wrote:
How could anyone view fleshbane AND force with 6 shots as balanced?
That would make it the most OP gun in the game! Anyone would think that people just want to return to the Ward Dex's level of cheese.

That's an impressive rebuttal of the math lined out above. Truly you are a master of arguments.

Whiskey144 wrote:

 Bill1138 wrote:
Fine. No Armorbane for the Psycannon. The rest of the proposal is perfectly valid.
[...]
Saves: To my understanding, multi-wound models typically have at least a 3+ save. This is a 1/3 chance of not being saved.

[Emphasis mine]

I want to just pull this part out, but this isn't actually true.

In fact, off the top of my head I can think of only two multi-wound models with a 3+ save of any kind- Tau Crisis Suits, IG Bullgryns, and Necron Wraiths. Other saves, OTOH...

4+/5+

Spoiler:

Tyranid Warriors (4+)
Tyranid Shrikes (5+)
Tyranid Raveners (4+)
Ogryns (5+)
Ork Nobz (6+)
Ork Nobz with 'Eavy Armor (4+)
Nob Bikers (4+, IIRC)
Daemons Bloodcrushers (5++)
Daemons Fiends of Slaanesh (5++)

And that's just off the top of my head! I'm sure that there's a few more that I'm forgetting. For giggles, I decided to also throw in multi-wound 2+ save models:

Spoiler:

SM Centurions (T5)
Ork Mega Armor Nobz (T4)
GK Paladins (T4)
Tau Broadsides (T4)

I mean, I can literally think of around twice as many 2+ save multi-wound models than I can think of 3+ save examples, and I just dredged up around 5 or 6 times as many 4+ or poorer examples.

The simple answer is that if Psilencers get Fleshbane, then it should have two "modes"- one with Force, and one with Fleshbane... but not one with both.

Bullgryns are a 4+ save base. They can only gain 3+ if they take the worse option of Slab Shield + Grenadier Gauntlet and then put everyone into base-to-base contact with another member of the squad, ala Deathwing Knights and their +1T gimmick.
9/10 times however, Bullgryns will go for Brute Shields (5++ save) and Power Mauls and thus be relying heavily on their 4+ armour save.

You also forgot the likes of;
Chaos Spawn (T5 - no save at all!)
Daemon Prince (T5 - 5++, must buy the 3+ save)
Flamers (T4)
Screamers (T4)
Beasts of Nurgle (T5)
Plaguedrones (T5)
Flesh Hounds (T4)
Flash Gits (T4/4+)

And I'm probably still forgetting at least one or two more! Fleshbane + Force would be utter broken gak. Every single T4/multi-wound non-2+ save model is already mediocre at best due to the proliferation of S8+ shooting.
A ranged Force weapon that always wounds on a 2+ is literally outright removing these types of units from the game.

Not to mention that as you'd almost certainly double-up on these versions in a squad, that means 12 shots going into a target. That would be enough weight of fire to pretty much delete any non-2+ unit, while also being able to wipe a good chunk of any 3+ save unit.
MC's would pretty much be relegated to only the better flying versions, as anything on the ground will be auto-killed by a pair of Fleshbane, Force Psilencers.
Add prescience and pretty much nothing in the game that's not a vehicle or gargantuan creature is likely to survive a pair of these obnoxious guns outside of favourable dice.

Congrats Bill1138, you've just removed 2 entire types of models from ever seeing the table top!

Plus, let's be realistic about this, if you're going to activate Force on your new "delete anything not a vehicle button" Psilencers, you're going to use 3 Dice to make denial either nearly impossible, or else force your opponent to likely be throwing all their dispel dice at this one power.
Maybe Daemons can attempt to deny 2 such castings, but overall, it's just plain game breaking what Fleshbane + Force activated Psilencers would do to the game in general.

If you honestly can't see how this would not be insanely broken, then clearly you're not even trying to be objective about balance and just want your easy-mode GK's back.

Whiskey144 wrote:

 Bill1138 wrote:
The Psilencer is NOT overpowered with Fleshbane and Force. Force is useless on the weapon without Fleshbane, and the weapon is pointless without Force.

I rather disagree- if it keeps Force, then IMO all it needs is S5- that makes it more reliable against T4 multi-wound, and viable for engaging T5 multi-wound. Even then there are still some people who have completely lost it over that.

I'd like to point out that you still haven't considered this idea:

Psychic Melta Powers Go!

Spoiler:

Psi-Melta
18" Assault 1 S8 AP1 Melta, Force

That seems like a really good option for an anti-vehicle and anti-MC weapon, don't you think?

Incidentally, what would everyone think about the following changes to Strike Squads;

-Strike Squad Justicars may take Teleport Homers
-Strike Squads gain the Scout USR

This would allow you to scout-move a little bit forward to get an accurate DS. Perhaps combined with a transport of some kind, and you could use it to accurately DS in some melta to deal with vehicles- especially with the addition of the aforementioned new GK-specific melta weapon.

S5 Psilencers would still be too much of a kick in the nads to every T4 non-2+ save multi-wound unit. Daemons would be less effected due to our ability to get multiple ways to augment our invulns, but overall, it's still too much to have a 36" range S5 instant kill weapon...
Keep in mind, all these units are already suffering due to the mass proliferation of S8+ in the game. The only really troublesome spot right now with these units are;
- Wraiths gaining a boost when it wasn't needed, then gaining an even bigger one when taken in their Decurion formation. (Fix the issues within codex Necrons)
- Daemons of Tzeentch and their re-rolled 2++ shenanigans. (Fix the issues within codex Daemons by limiting our invulns to 3++ at best, ala MoT in CSM's.)
- Centstar (play Maelstrom missions that make slow-@$$ deathstars and gunlines a complete liability!)
- Draigo Centstar (hmmmmm... okay, this one really sucks admittedly, as Draigo bring guaranteed GoI...)

If we want 36"/S5 Psilencers, then Force would need to go, and instead give them something else to make up for it, such as perhaps Shred.

Likewise I think a mobile Psi-Melta with a 24" engagement range is a bit too much. Again, odds are if you're taking one in a unit, you'll take two for redundancy. Interceptors would be insane with these things! T1, shunt into range of the biggest, nastiest MC the enemy has, pop off Force, nuke.
MC's, especially FMC's have taken enough kicks in 7th from their utter domination in 6th.

Besides, GK's don't need to be super efficient vs. high AV targets to be a viable army... Daemons are likewise equally poop vs. vehicles at range - in fact, we're much worse off than GK's in this regard!
We still do fine however with using our speed to get in close and hit things though. Only Serpent Spam and Imperial Knights give us fits, and the former is simply a case of fixing the offending model within its own codex. (nuke the damn shield rules please!)

If GW isn't going to give us Grey Knight Jetbikes, (shame on them!), then Land Speeders would be a better fit than a Force Melta. Still addresses the need, but doesn't present a highly obnoxious hard-counter to an entire subset of units.

I have not yet encountered a Daemonprince that didn't purchase the 3+ save. And recognising that my perception of 3+ being the average could be off I gave my calculations so others could check my math, and provide the stats for whatever target unit they believe would be a better example. Besides, I was thinking along the lines of Monstrous Creatures, not cheap hoard units.

You're making the keeping of a respectful tone very difficult. I showed you the math that proves that the Psilencer is no more powerful than other comon weapons in the game, and that the price is comparable for similarly powered weapons. Your insistence that it is broken, or a point-delete weapon is 100% unfounded, and evidenced by you not providing the math to support your argument.

What are you saying is the "typical" multi-wound model"? I'm certain that the Psilencer doesn't become overpowered or broken regardless of the enemy. You seemed to show several Daemons with 5++ saves and split between T4 & 5. If I show you the math for these types of units will you actually look at it from a logical perspective?

So, if we go with a T4, 5+ save enemy...
Grey Knights have BS4, hitting on a 3+, which gives them a 2/3 chance To-Hit
If the Psilencer is stationary, it gets 6 shots, and with 2/3 of those hitting, we can expect 4 Hits
With Fleshbane the Psilencer wounds on a 2+, which is a 5/6 chance To-Wound
4 Hits with a 5/6 chance To-Wound results in 3.333 Wounds
A 5++ save will statistically fail 2/3 of the attempts made
3.333 Wounds remaining unsaved 2/3 of the time will result in 2.222 Unsaved Wounds.

If the Psilencer is mobile it instead has 4 shots, on a 2/3 chance to hit, resulting in 2.666 Hits
With Fleshbane the Psilencer wounds on a 2+ which is a 5/6 chance To-Wound
2.666 Hits with a 5/6 chance To-Wound results in 2.222 Wounds
A 5++ save will statistically fail 2/3 of the attempts made
2.222 Wounds remain unsaved 2/3 of the time will result in 1.481 Unsaved Wounds

So, even if the Grey Knights take 10-man units, and combat squad them with both Special Weapons in the same unit (The only way any Grey Knight unit can have 2 Special Weapons in a 5-man unit other than Purifiers, Paladins, and Purgation Squads), If the unit functions as a static gun line (which is very difficult in 7th edition especially for Grey Knights) that would only be 4 unsaved wounds caused, + the chance to cast Force and hoping they don't kill themselves in the process. If they move they'll statistically cause 3 unsaved wounds.

2 Warp Charge Dice gives a 75% chance of successfully harnessing the Warp Charges, and a 2.8% chance of getting a Perils. It the enemy unit is that important to not be subject to Instant Death, the oponent can use his Warp Charge dice to deny it. Grey Knights have so many powers to cast, they don't have that many extra dice to throw around.

At 3 Warp Charge Dice, they have an 87.5% chance of successfully harnesing Warp Charges, but their chance of Perils increases to 8.3%.

Stop pretending Warp Charges make all of the Grey Knights' problems go away. Even if an oponent doesn't try to deny Force, and the Grey Knight uses 3 Warp Charges, and they stand still for the maximum firepower, that's still an average of 1.84 unsaved Instant Death Wounds for a shooting phase. An upgrade that's supposed to be anti-hoard, that costs as much as a Lascannon, statistically can only inflict <2 Wounds with Instant Death, under optimal circumstances. There is no polite response to your claim that Force with Fleshbane is overpowered. You are wrong. And doubling up the weapon doesn't make it better, because the unit has to pay for the equivalent of a Lascannon FOR EACH ONE.

If a 10-15pt anti-hoard gun CAN'T cause a couple unsaved Wounds reliably on low-save enemies, it isn't an anti-hoard gun. If it can't reliably cause multiple unsaved wounds to hoard enemies, or at least a single wound to a tougher enemy, it isn't worth the expense, even with Force. Remember, the expense isn't just the 10-15pts, it's also the Storm Bolter, and Nemesis Force Sword.

The Psilencer isn't worth taking at all without both Force and Fleshbane. As I have shown multiple times, having both simply makes the Psilencer on-par with weapons available to other factions statistically. It is not just a "point-delete" weapon as you claim.

Such a blatant disregard for the facts teeters dangerously close to trolling.

Case and point: Daemons have access to AV13, with a 5++ invulnerable save. The Psycannon as I proposed is simply as capable as the Lascannon at facing that. It's not a matter of being "super-effective against vehicles". It's a matter of being able to fight their Preferred Enemy with and being able to damage that preferred enemy's Soulgrinder.

Never considered taking a psylincer ever. It's so F in bad. Even with flesh bane it's still bad - maybe the heavy pslinser would be okay on dreadknights with it - but I'd still probably be more inclined to take the heavy incinerator for anti horde duities.

 Bill1138 wrote:

I have not yet encountered a Daemonprince that didn't purchase the 3+ save. And recognising that my perception of 3+ being the average could be off I gave my calculations so others could check my math, and provide the stats for whatever target unit they believe would be a better example. Besides, I was thinking along the lines of Monstrous Creatures, not cheap hoard units.

Outside of Flesh Hounds who are likely a couple pts too cheap and can take up to 20/squad, none of those multi-wound units are "cheap hordes". They either pay upwards of 30+ pts a pop for their T4 + mutilple wounds, and/or tend to cap out at no more than 10 models per squad.

 Bill1138 wrote:
You're making the keeping of a respectful tone very difficult. I showed you the math that proves that the Psilencer is no more powerful than other comon weapons in the game, and that the price is comparable for similarly powered weapons. Your insistence that it is broken, or a point-delete weapon is 100% unfounded, and evidenced by you not providing the math to support your argument.

What are you saying is the "typical" multi-wound model"? I'm certain that the Psilencer doesn't become overpowered or broken regardless of the enemy. You seemed to show several Daemons with 5++ saves and split between T4 & 5. If I show you the math for these types of units will you actually look at it from a logical perspective?

So, if we go with a T4, 5+ save enemy...
Grey Knights have BS4, hitting on a 3+, which gives them a 2/3 chance To-Hit
If the Psilencer is stationary, it gets 6 shots, and with 2/3 of those hitting, we can expect 4 Hits
With Fleshbane the Psilencer wounds on a 2+, which is a 5/6 chance To-Wound
4 Hits with a 5/6 chance To-Wound results in 3.333 Wounds
A 5++ save will statistically fail 2/3 of the attempts made
3.333 Wounds remaining unsaved 2/3 of the time will result in 2.222 Unsaved Wounds.

If the Psilencer is mobile it instead has 4 shots, on a 2/3 chance to hit, resulting in 2.666 Hits
With Fleshbane the Psilencer wounds on a 2+ which is a 5/6 chance To-Wound
2.666 Hits with a 5/6 chance To-Wound results in 2.222 Wounds
A 5++ save will statistically fail 2/3 of the attempts made
2.222 Wounds remain unsaved 2/3 of the time will result in 1.481 Unsaved Wounds

So, even if the Grey Knights take 10-man units, and combat squad them with both Special Weapons in the same unit (The only way any Grey Knight unit can have 2 Special Weapons in a 5-man unit other than Purifiers, Paladins, and Purgation Squads), If the unit functions as a static gun line (which is very difficult in 7th edition especially for Grey Knights) that would only be 4 unsaved wounds caused, + the chance to cast Force and hoping they don't kill themselves in the process. If they move they'll statistically cause 3 unsaved wounds.

When using them paired, you suddenly get:
12 shots @BS4 = 8 hits
8 hits wounding one 2's = 6.64 wounds. accounting for rounding, it's typically averaging 7 wounds.
7 wounds vs. 5++ = 2.31, and again, taking rounding into account, that's 2 saves.

5 models dead from a single unit toting a pair of Fleshbane + Force Psilencers is amazing for the GK player. That's typically a complete wipe-out vs. the likes of Bloodcrushers, Fiends, Beasts, Plaguedrones, Ogryns, Chaos Spawn, and any other non-4+ save unit.

Against a 'typically' 3+ Monstrous Creature, it's even more skewed in the GK player's favour:
12 Shots @BS4 = 8 hits
8 hits wounding 2's = 6.64 wounds. (round up to 7)
7 wounds vs. 3+ armour = 4.62 saves, rounding up makes it 5 saves.
2 unsaved wounds = dead MC due to Force.

Against a 2+ save MC such as the often bemoaned "Cheesetide", you're still averaging a guaranteed kill:
12 Shots @BS4 = 8 hits
8 hits wounding on 2's = 6.64 wounds (round up to 7)
7 wounds vs. 2+ armour = 5.81 saves, rounding up makes it 6 saves.
1 unsaved wound = dead MC due to Force.

There is no way to remove the stink attached to a long ranged gun that always wounds on 2's and can easily be upgraded to Instant Death! status. Sure, Wraiths, Centurions, Pallies, Mega Nobs and the like don't melt to it. Everything else, especially MC's do get reliably nuked by a single unit able to take 2 of these things.

Yes, you're trading out your Force weapon (the only real sacrifice) for the equivalent cost of a Lascannon. Lascannons though can not one-shot multiple models and/or MC's in a single shooting phase.
Range isn't even an issue either, as with 36" you can easily keep a small unit or two behind your main advance and fully support where needed. (hooray for Combat Squads)
Grey Knights don't and shouldn't gunline. That only means you shouldn't be keeping your entire main combat line purely static. A couple of smaller squads holding down solid fire support lines is still very doable, and very beneficial to the more aggressive style of GK's. Even purely assault based armies still tend to keep some smaller support elements in their backfield.

 Bill1138 wrote:
2 Warp Charge Dice gives a 75% chance of successfully harnessing the Warp Charges, and a 2.8% chance of getting a Perils. It the enemy unit is that important to not be subject to Instant Death, the oponent can use his Warp Charge dice to deny it. Grey Knights have so many powers to cast, they don't have that many extra dice to throw around.

So, sure, Daemons can likely stop one or two attempts. No one else, not even Tyranids will stand a snowball's chance in hell of preventing more than a single Force activation attempt. And even then, run your Psychic phase intelligently, and you can easily run most opponents out of dispel dice before you get to your critical powers... (I do it all the time with Tzeentch Daemons)
Plus you have armies like Orks & Tau especially who pretty much have no real ability to put out many Warp Charges. Mostly they just rely on the single D6.

 Bill1138 wrote:
At 3 Warp Charge Dice, they have an 87.5% chance of successfully harnesing Warp Charges, but their chance of Perils increases to 8.3%.

 Bill1138 wrote:
Stop pretending Warp Charges make all of the Grey Knights' problems go away. Even if an oponent doesn't try to deny Force, and the Grey Knight uses 3 Warp Charges, and they stand still for the maximum firepower, that's still an average of 1.84 unsaved Instant Death Wounds for a shooting phase. An upgrade that's supposed to be anti-hoard, that costs as much as a Lascannon, statistically can only inflict <2 Wounds with Instant Death, under optimal circumstances. There is no polite response to your claim that Force with Fleshbane is overpowered. You are wrong. And doubling up the weapon doesn't make it better, because the unit has to pay for the equivalent of a Lascannon FOR EACH ONE.

An Average GK army is typically carrying:
Libby (Lv3)
2 Troops
5-10 'Ceptors
2 Dreadknights

So even barebones, you're looking at 8-9 WC's + D6. That's well above average. Most armies are lucky to have 4 + D6 charges. If you can't organise your Psychic phase in order to near guarantee your 1-2 critical powers you really need go off, that's your fault.
Grey Knights are easily capable of putting 10-12WC's + D6 or more onto the table. Only Daemons can reliably equal or out Warp Charge you. (or Eldar spamming double Farseers + Warlock Congress, which btw, is a terrible build for them in 7th!)

Besides, causing a single wound is all you need against a Monstrous Creature. Against the majority of multi-wound units, you're still reliably killing 2-3 at least, which outside of Flesh Hounds, is typically at worst a full 1/3rd of that unit.

 Bill1138 wrote:
If a 10-15pt anti-hoard gun CAN'T cause a couple unsaved Wounds reliably on low-save enemies, it isn't an anti-hoard gun. If it can't reliably cause multiple unsaved wounds to hoard enemies, or at least a single wound to a tougher enemy, it isn't worth the expense, even with Force. Remember, the expense isn't just the 10-15pts, it's also the Storm Bolter, and Nemesis Force Sword.

The Psilencer isn't worth taking at all without both Force and Fleshbane. As I have shown multiple times, having both simply makes the Psilencer on-par with weapons available to other factions statistically. It is not just a "point-delete" weapon as you claim.

If you're going purely anti-horde, you're not casting Force. A "Horde" unit is just that; a large blob of individually weak grunts, typically sporting T3/5+ or T4/6+. Horde units are not multi-wound, outside of the Flesh Hound case. (and admittedly, Flesh Hounds are too good right now - they'd be solid even at 20pts a pop with their current stats!)
The Psilencer takes out hordes quite well as is when those units are in the open. Incinerators make a true mockery of hordes in cover!

You don't need help killing hordes.

10-15pts is pretty fair actually. The units which really lose on the Force sword typically don't want to be in combat anyways outside of cleaning up an already crippled unit, hence it's not a huge drawback.
Purifiers meanwhile have 2 attacks base, so while the dude carrying the gun makes a bigger sacrifice in giving up his pointy-death-stick, the rest of squad has still have weight of attacks of their own. (and besides, Purifiers shouldn't even have the option for 2 special/5 men to begin with - they're meant to be a dedicated assault unit - not 'uberfied Purgs x100!)

Even as it is currently, the Psilencer is still much better than most other armies get for tackling their intended target; T4/multi-wound/non-3+ saves. Everyone else is typically sacrificing their S8+ guns, (typically their anti-tank stuff), and/or has to commit a very substantial portion of their shooting to remove those threats.

 Bill1138 wrote:
Such a blatant disregard for the facts teeters dangerously close to trolling.

The same goes both ways you know... you seem to be willfully keeping blinders up regarding just how massive powerful to the point of game-breaking a long ranged 6-shot/wounds on 2'/Force gun really is.

 Bill1138 wrote:
Case and point: Daemons have access to AV13, with a 5++ invulnerable save. The Psycannon as I proposed is simply as capable as the Lascannon at facing that. It's not a matter of being "super-effective against vehicles". It's a matter of being able to fight their Preferred Enemy with and being able to damage that preferred enemy's Soulgrinder.

You don't need a 'better Lascannon' to deal with a Soul Grinder. A single Dreadknight will reliably murder a Grinder in combat before it can even fight back. And outside of the Nurgle Grinders w/Phlegm Bombardment, they tend to actively come to you anyways!

If you're routinely getting your army handed back to you by a Soul Grinder, the current Grey Knight codex isn't the problem... Yes Soul Grinders are good, they're not THAT good however, and they have substantial weakness & problems of their own.
Case in point: WS3/BS3/I3/A4 and must pay at a minimum an additional 'tax' for dedication (okay, Khorne is 'free', but also a completely useless bonus!) And that's before considering they pay an additional 25pts to gain +1A, as well as additional pts to gain any kind of shooting attack.

A typical DoT + Torrent Grinder is 160pts. A DoN + Phlegm Grinder is 180pts.
And they're also in a highly competitive slot in our book too, as they're competing alongside Prince + Khannons + Burning Chariots for space.

At what point does making the same mathematically wrong argument over and over become a violation of the rules?

Causing 1-2 unsaved Wounds with a chance for Instant Death by a Psilencer for 10-15 points on top of sacrificing a Nemesis Force Sword, and a Storm Bolter is not overpowered. Anything less and it's unfieldable.

You can't argue double the number of shots taken under optimal circumstances and use that as a disproof of the weapon being balanced and viable.

If anything, my proposed Psilencer is still weak against Hoards, but is fairly good at killing Monstrous Creatures, but not much more so than the Lascannon, for which the costs are comparable. And don't forget, my proposed Psilencer CAN'T HARM VEHICLES. It is primarily an Anti-Daemon gun, as it is supposed to be.

 Bill1138 wrote:
At what point does making the same mathematically wrong argument over and over become a violation of the rules?

Causing 1-2 unsaved Wounds with a chance for Instant Death by a Psilencer for 10-15 points on top of sacrificing a Nemesis Force Sword, and a Storm Bolter is not overpowered. Anything less and it's unfieldable.

You can't argue double the number of shots taken under optimal circumstances and use that as a disproof of the weapon being balanced and viable.

If anything, my proposed Psilencer is still weak against Hoards, but is fairly good at killing Monstrous Creatures, but not much more so than the Lascannon, for which the costs are comparable. And don't forget, my proposed Psilencer CAN'T HARM VEHICLES. It is primarily an Anti-Daemon gun, as it is supposed to be.

Causing 1-2 unsaved wounds per gun. It's not like you're only ever fielding just 0-1 of these things. With these rules, you'd definitely see units toting them around in pairs to ensure better redundancy. (Purgators would frankly be an utter nightmare with these things...)
With Force active, 1-2 wounds = 1-2 auto dead models. For Grey Knights, casting Force across multiple units is not an issue at all.

These rules are effectively a massive 'Feth-you' to every single monstrous creature in the game. Multi-wound units, especially low save multi-wound units, are equally smashed.
And yes, you *should* run the numbers under optimal circumstances as a way to help see if something is too powerful or not. Using only the least optimised scenario and calling it "fair" is insulting.

As for this farce that your proposed rules make a 36"/S4/ap-/Fleshbane/Force Psiclencer not much better vs. an MC than a Lascannon? Please, show us where a single Lascannon gets more than a 0.00% chance at killing a MC with more than a single wound remaining.
This thing isn't just "fairly good" at killing MC's. A single one can potentially pull it off when standing still. Paired up, you're on purely average rolls guaranteed to kill a 3+ save MC. (and still insta-jib even a 2+ save MC on average rolls)

That's a pretty good definition of "over powered."


No one's going on about this proposed Psilencer being good/bad vs. vehicles. My problem, (and I'm the vast majority of others problem with it), is that it's frankly god-mode vs. every single non-flying MC and every single multi-wound model unit that can't sport a 2+ save!

Better yet, go see if any Daemon or Tyranid or Ork or Tau player will let you try out these proposed rules. Just don't be surprised with they ask if you're joking and reply, "sure, but only when the Leafs win the Stanley Cup!"

Actual a local tau player doesn't mind since he has 2+ saves and it reduces the amount of psycannons I will be blasting him with.

 Bill1138 wrote:
On both of these points I don't believe we will will come to an agreement.

7th Edition is all about the shooting phase, and the Grey Knights are hurting because they don't have any cost-effective options with better than a 24" range.

I don't care for your "better melta" suggestion because it has only an 18" range for an army with a practical max of 24". Also, your proposed new gun only benefits from melta within 9". Short of Shunting or Deep Striking dangerously close to enemy vehicles, that's not going to be useful for the Grey Knights. It also bears the problem that it is a new weapon to replace the Psycannon instead of fixing it.

It replaces the Psycannon in the anti-vehicle and anti-MC roles. The Psycannon as a general purpose weapon useful for de-meching opponents and functioning as an anti-median Toughness (T4/5) anti-infantry weapon still remains- it's just that Psycannons really shouldn't be saddled with all the jobs that they currently have to do. It breaks the weapon, because it becomes too much of an auto-take; the only competitive alternative is the Incinerator, and it really only counts as "competitive" when you consider either Interceptors (who can move in and set things on fire very quickly) or other PAGKs because they don't have Relentless and thus cannot take advantage of Psycannons very well.

 Bill1138 wrote:
Here's my math on the topic.

Spoiler:

If we compare my suggested Psycannon, a Lascannon, and your proposed "better melta" against a Soulgrinder:
The statistical damage dealt to a Soulgrinder by a stationary Psycannon is (4)(2/3)(1/6)(2/3) = 16/54
= 0.30 Penetrating Hits, with a 1/6 chance of an Explodes Result, bringing the chance of a one-shot down to 0.049 Explosions.

The statistical damage dealt to a Soulgrinder by a mobile Psycannon is (2)(2/3)(1/6)(2/3) = 8/54
= 0.15 unsaved Penetrating Hits, with a 1/6 chance of an Explodes result, bringing the chance of a one-shot down to 0.025 Explosions.

The statistical damage dealt to a Soulgrinder by a stationary Lascannon is (1)(2/3)(1/2)(2/3) = 4/18
= 0.22 unsaved Penetrating Hits, with a 1/6 chance of an Explodes Result, bringing the chance of a one-shot down to 0.037 Explosions.

The statistical damage dealt to a Soulgrinder by your better melta past 9" is (1)2/3)(1/3)(2/3) = 4/27
= 0.074 unsaved glancing hits, + 0.074 unsaved penetrating hits, with a 1/3 chance of an explode result, resulting in 0.0247 Explosions.

Outside of spitting distance, the the Psycannon I proposed is better at destroying vehicles than your proposed better-melta.

Firstly, please clean up your maths by using spoiler tags- it contributes greatly to the readability of your post. It's something I had to learn too, don't feel bad.

Secondly, what about the numbers for a "Psi-Melta" in melta range? With a 9" melta range and mass DS for the GKs it's perfectly reasonable to expect that you could in fact get within that 9" range. Incidentally, I just came up with an... interesting... idea for ways to reliably accomplish that.

 Bill1138 wrote:
The Grey Knights need good firepower with decent range, and your melta suggestion doesn't offer that.

Grey Knights do have some "decent" ranged options- these options are simply limited to either overly thin or overly expensive vehicles. It's also worth noting that GKs do still have a lot of flexibility for up-field deployment options, so getting into melta range- particularly an extended 9" melta range- isn't as hard as you seem to think.

 Bill1138 wrote:
And I showed you my math for the Psilencer with Fleshbane and Force, and that it is not more powerful than other weapons that already exist and are available to the other Imperial factions' infantry. It seems to me that you reject the suggestion out of hand with your reasoning having nothing to do with the balance of firepower. Even with Fleshbane and Force, it is a hair better at anti-hoard than a Lascannon, and that isn't saying much. It only shines if it has a non-laughable chance at killing high toughness Monstrous Creatures.

Psilencers shouldn't be anti-MC though- not only is the AP- of the weapon incredibly detrimental to that, but I personally think that Psilencers need a defined role that isn't only "kill multi-wound infantry". Your proposal does nothing to address that, realistically speaking.

 Bill1138 wrote:
As for Scout, the problem is that Deep Striking a few inches outside of their deployment zone is not useful to the Grey Knights. It leaves them in the middle of no-man's land where they have to trudge through enemy fire to get to anything. The purpose of Deep Strike is to get units to places they either couldn't get to otherwise or where they need to get to more quickly than they could by going by ground. Deep Striking on Scout units does neither of these things.

I maintain, that the Grey Knights should have access to an Infiltrate unit, but the next best thing would be Rites of Teleportation that only scatters 1d6 (I suggested making this a Special Rule for the Strike Squads). I believe Scout is useless for the Grey Knights.

I disagree on the Infiltrate option- it simply doesn't fit with the thematic- or mechanic- design of the army. It opens the potential for a lot of abuse for alpha strikes, and I think we can both agree that armies which prevent the opponent from doing more than rolling saves- if that- are bad game design.

In any case, I could get behind the idea that Strike Squads get a special rule that reduces their DS scatter.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Bullgryns are a 4+ save base. They can only gain 3+ if they take the worse option of Slab Shield + Grenadier Gauntlet and then put everyone into base-to-base contact with another member of the squad, ala Deathwing Knights and their +1T gimmick.
9/10 times however, Bullgryns will go for Brute Shields (5++ save) and Power Mauls and thus be relying heavily on their 4+ armour save.

My mistake- I had assumed something that was untrue of Bullgryns. Incidentally, that actually validates my point even more- the "average" is generally 4+ or worse.

Experiment 626 wrote:
S5 Psilencers would still be too much of a kick in the nads to every T4 non-2+ save multi-wound unit. Daemons would be less effected due to our ability to get multiple ways to augment our invulns, but overall, it's still too much to have a 36" range S5 instant kill weapon...

It's also worth noting that that is my opinion. I have already previously amended my suggestion for Psilencers to the following:

It is also worth noting that GK infantry are heavily incentivized to move around a lot, and that the 36" range being tossed around is to compensate for the terrible mechanics of Salvo; if Salvo were change thusly:

Then it's unnecessary to include the 36" range- 24" works fine if Salvo doesn't screw with maximum range like it does now.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Keep in mind, all these units are already suffering due to the mass proliferation of S8+ in the game. The only really troublesome spot right now with these units are;
- Wraiths gaining a boost when it wasn't needed, then gaining an even bigger one when taken in their Decurion formation. (Fix the issues within codex Necrons)
- Daemons of Tzeentch and their re-rolled 2++ shenanigans. (Fix the issues within codex Daemons by limiting our invulns to 3++ at best, ala MoT in CSM's.)
- Centstar (play Maelstrom missions that make slow-@$$ deathstars and gunlines a complete liability!)
- Draigo Centstar (hmmmmm... okay, this one really sucks admittedly, as Draigo bring guaranteed GoI...)

Insofar as 2++ re-rollable shenanigans, I would simply removing the ability to re-roll invulnerable and probably cover saves as well. Armor is generally easier to bypass, especially in this era of mass AP2 everywhere.

Experiment 626 wrote:
If we want 36"/S5 Psilencers, then Force would need to go, and instead give them something else to make up for it, such as perhaps Shred.

Check my current iteration (which existed before this thread got back up again). You might like it.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Likewise I think a mobile Psi-Melta with a 24" engagement range is a bit too much. Again, odds are if you're taking one in a unit, you'll take two for redundancy. Interceptors would be insane with these things! T1, shunt into range of the biggest, nastiest MC the enemy has, pop off Force, nuke.
MC's, especially FMC's have taken enough kicks in 7th from their utter domination in 6th.

First off, the reason for "Assault" is to prevent what could be termed the "Psilencer problem", in that the weapon is functionally useless unless you sit still, but has such a small range that you have to move in order to actually get into range in the first place.

There's still ways to correct the anti-MC "issue"- perhaps the following?

As an example, let's consider the aforementioned Interceptor squad with two Psi-Meltas. We'll assume that they've shunted into range already, and are firing on a typical T6 MC.
Original S8+Force Psi-Melta

Updated S6+Force Psi-Melta

Also, it would seem to me that MCs are still heavily dominating, with widespread dislike of not only the Riptide (and Flyrant) but also the Dreadknight and Wraithknight.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Besides, GK's don't need to be super efficient vs. high AV targets to be a viable army... Daemons are likewise equally poop vs. vehicles at range - in fact, we're much worse off than GK's in this regard!
We still do fine however with using our speed to get in close and hit things though. Only Serpent Spam and Imperial Knights give us fits, and the former is simply a case of fixing the offending model within its own codex. (nuke the damn shield rules please!)

Then IMO Daemons should have better mid-range options for dealing with armor, much in the same way I proposed GKs should get a slightly longer-ranged melta weapon.

Also, I'd like to mention that IMO Imperial Knights should be instead limited to being a Skitarii LOW, as this then allows for a fluffy "Knight+Sacristan" style list. But I might be crazy to say such a thing...

Also also, yes, let us kill the scourge of Serpent Spam with much FIRE

Experiment 626 wrote:
If GW isn't going to give us Grey Knight Jetbikes, (shame on them!), then Land Speeders would be a better fit than a Force Melta. Still addresses the need, but doesn't present a highly obnoxious hard-counter to an entire subset of units.

I rather disagree- Land Speeders don't really fit with the GK theme; almost every vehicle they have- in fact, anything that's not a Dreadnought- is a transport of some kind, so I would argue that vehicles in the GK list are all intended to be used to deliver the GKs themselves into action... which Land Speeders do not do.

Incidentally, I had a blazingly brilliant idea a moment ago, regarding GK Jetbikes:

Jetbikes are an option for GK Techmarines, who can also take Teleport Homers. This fulfills the whole "GKs get the best bits" part, while also providing a fast-moving unit that can be used to set up accurate DS's.

Experiment 626 wrote:
The Psilencer takes out hordes quite well as is when those units are in the open. Incinerators make a true mockery of hordes in cover!

You don't need help killing hordes.

I want to single this out, because as I have said elsewhere, I've run the math on this. Psilencers are only better at killing T4 multi-wound models. Against everything else- all T3/T5 models, and T4 single-wound models, and even anything with a 3+ or better save.... it's better to point a Psycannon at it.

Here's the math to prove it, BTW:

From that, we can instantly and easily see that Psilencers are only good at killing Toughness 4 multi-wound models with a 4+ or worse save. Against everything else, the Psycannon is currently superior. As for Incinerators... template weapons need to get close, which isn't always possible or ideal.

The GKs certainly have more widespread options- at least in theory- to get close, but that's really the kicker for templates. They need to get really close.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
How could anyone view fleshbane AND force with 6 shots as balanced?
That would make it the most OP gun in the game! Anyone would think that people just want to return to the Ward Dex's level of cheese.

That's an impressive rebuttal of the math lined out above. Truly you are a master of arguments.

Oh what's that? I'm not the only one who thinks that this is completely OP and looks like it came from a 12 year old's fandex.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Bill1138 wrote:
At what point does making the same mathematically wrong argument over and over become a violation of the rules?

Causing 1-2 unsaved Wounds with a chance for Instant Death by a Psilencer for 10-15 points on top of sacrificing a Nemesis Force Sword, and a Storm Bolter is not overpowered. Anything less and it's unfieldable.

You can't argue double the number of shots taken under optimal circumstances and use that as a disproof of the weapon being balanced and viable.

If anything, my proposed Psilencer is still weak against Hoards, but is fairly good at killing Monstrous Creatures, but not much more so than the Lascannon, for which the costs are comparable. And don't forget, my proposed Psilencer CAN'T HARM VEHICLES. It is primarily an Anti-Daemon gun, as it is supposed to be.

Causing 1-2 unsaved wounds per gun. It's not like you're only ever fielding just 0-1 of these things. With these rules, you'd definitely see units toting them around in pairs to ensure better redundancy. (Purgators would frankly be an utter nightmare with these things...)
With Force active, 1-2 wounds = 1-2 auto dead models. For Grey Knights, casting Force across multiple units is not an issue at all.

When was the last time you actually looked at the Grey Knight Codex?
Strike Squads can ONLY TAKE 1 SPECIAL WEAPON PER 5 MODELS. At 10 men, with no other upgrades beyond the two Psilencers, that is still 230pts!

Terminators at ten men with no other upgrades beyond 2 Psilencers is 360pts

Interceptors at ten men with no other upgrades beyond 2 Psilencers is 270pts

Purifiers can take two Psilencers at five models, but that's still 145pts with no other upgrades.

Paladins can take two Psilencers at five models as well, and they are 305pts with no other upgrades.

Purgation squads with two Psilencers and no other upgrades would come to 130pts.

Apart from possibly Purifiers and Purgation Squads, it would be the rare occurance to see two in the same unit.

These rules are effectively a massive 'Feth-you' to every single monstrous creature in the game. Multi-wound units, especially low save multi-wound units, are equally smashed.
And yes, you *should* run the numbers under optimal circumstances as a way to help see if something is too powerful or not. Using only the least optimised scenario and calling it "fair" is insulting.

The weapons will most often be used on the move which means they'll have an 18" range and only 4 shots. Using the long profile with it's maximum range means the rest of the unit can't shoot with their 24" weapons.

You should look at the weapon for how it will perform in an actual scenario, not DOUBLE what it is theoretically capable of if your opponent just sits on his hands. That would be ridiculous.

As for this farce that your proposed rules make a 36"/S4/ap-/Fleshbane/Force Psiclencer not much better vs. an MC than a Lascannon? Please, show us where a single Lascannon gets more than a 0.00% chance at killing a MC with more than a single wound remaining.
This thing isn't just "fairly good" at killing MC's. A single one can potentially pull it off when standing still. Paired up, you're on purely average rolls guaranteed to kill a 3+ save MC. (and still insta-jib even a 2+ save MC on average rolls)

That's a pretty good definition of "over powered."

As I've shown, it is costly for the Grey Knights to pair up on weapons. It is only cost-effective to do so with Purifiers and Purgation Squads, neither of which can Deep Strike, has better than a 3+ armor save, or any Invulnerable save.

Here you make the additional fallacy, of using the calculated odds of wounding a model with a 5+ save in place of a model with a 3+ save. A stationary Psilencer has 6 shots, hitting 2/3 of the time, wounding 5/6 of the time, and getting past a 3+ save 1/3 of the time, and Force on 3 Warp Charges being passed about 85% of the time with a 8% chance of Perils, which could very well kill the Psilencer. (6)(2/3)(5/6)(1/3)(0.85) = 0.94 Unsaved Instant Death Wounds. That is statistically 1 (Wound) model killed. It is better than a Lascannon at killing Monstrous Creatures, but this comes at the expense of being able to harm vehicles at all. The Lascannon can reliably remove both Hull Points from Vehicles AND remove Wounds from Monstrous Creatures. The overall value of my proposed Psilencer is comparable to the Lascannon.

No one's going on about this proposed Psilencer being good/bad vs. vehicles. My problem, (and I'm the vast majority of others problem with it), is that it's frankly god-mode vs. every single non-flying MC and every single multi-wound model unit that can't sport a 2+ save!

Better yet, go see if any Daemon or Tyranid or Ork or Tau player will let you try out these proposed rules. Just don't be surprised with they ask if you're joking and reply, "sure, but only when the Leafs win the Stanley Cup!"

As you are so quick to point out the number of multi-wound models in the game that move in units with other models, the Psilencer as I suggested it would only be able to kill 1-2 models from the unit per shooting phase (assuming they don't die to a Perils or get blown away by the superior firepower of most other armies), and the rest just keep coming. Essentially, it's only as powerful as whatever it's shooting at. Doesn't that sound like a Psychic Weapon appropriate of the 40k universe?

 Bill1138 wrote:

As you are so quick to point out the number of multi-wound models in the game that move in units with other models, the Psilencer as I suggested it would only be able to kill 1-2 models from the unit per shooting phase (assuming they don't die to a Perils or get blown away by the superior firepower of most other armies), and the rest just keep coming. Essentially, it's only as powerful as whatever it's shooting at. Doesn't that sound like a Psychic Weapon appropriate of the 40k universe?

"Only" being able to kill 1-2 models from a unit of Carnifexes would be removing at least 240 points worth of nids for that turn of shooting =/

 Bill1138 wrote:

When was the last time you actually looked at the Grey Knight Codex?
Strike Squads can ONLY TAKE 1 SPECIAL WEAPON PER 5 MODELS. At 10 men, with no other upgrades beyond the two Psilencers, that is still 230pts!

Terminators at ten men with no other upgrades beyond 2 Psilencers is 360pts

Interceptors at ten men with no other upgrades beyond 2 Psilencers is 270pts

Purifiers can take two Psilencers at five models, but that's still 145pts with no other upgrades.

Paladins can take two Psilencers at five models as well, and they are 305pts with no other upgrades.

Purgation squads with two Psilencers and no other upgrades would come to 130pts.

Apart from possibly Purifiers and Purgation Squads, it would be the rare occurance to see two in the same unit.

Strikes, Purifiers, Paladins & Purgations can all make solid use of Psilencers. 'Ceptors are better off left to Incinerators when going only 5-6 men, while at 10 men they're better suited to Psycannons due to their 30" shunt allowing them to get that weapon within side/rear armour arcs.
With your proposed rules, these squads would easily make back their pts totals within 1-2 Shooting phases.

And if we're going to play the, "but it costs me lots of points!" game, then for just Daemons alone;


230pts for your proposed rules is super cheap when it will earn back its own pts value (and then some when tagging a Daemonic MC) is too good. Purifiers & Purgations are outright broken with these rules.
If you want Fleshbane, then Force has to go. Otherwise you're simply giving your GK units the ability to simply point and click remove equally or more expensive units for little effort.

Really, the Psilencer only needs either:
36"/S4/ap-/Force + Daemonbane, Salvo 4/6
36"/S5/ap-/Shred (and/or something like 'removes all modifiers to invuln saves'). Salvo 4/6

That would be a good boost that makes the gun a relevant tactical choice. (Especially for 10 man Strike Squads w/transport and/or Purgations)

 Bill1138 wrote:

These rules are effectively a massive 'Feth-you' to every single monstrous creature in the game. Multi-wound units, especially low save multi-wound units, are equally smashed.
And yes, you *should* run the numbers under optimal circumstances as a way to help see if something is too powerful or not. Using only the least optimised scenario and calling it "fair" is insulting.

The weapons will most often be used on the move which means they'll have an 18" range and only 4 shots. Using the long profile with it's maximum range means the rest of the unit can't shoot with their 24" weapons.

You should look at the weapon for how it will perform in an actual scenario, not DOUBLE what it is theoretically capable of if your opponent just sits on his hands. That would be ridiculous.

Combat Squads are a viable tactic. You can easily have 5 dudes sit back behind your main push and pour supporting fire into a key target. The other 5 dudes can take a cheap DT and help claim forward objectives with Obsec.
Now you're "losing out" on only 3 Storm Bolters.

and yes, that would be an "actual scenario", as with such a silly-good profile, you'd be kidding yourself if you didn't take at least a single 10 Strike Squad to effectively hard-counter every single non-FMC in the game! (as well as being able to cripple the vast majority of T4/5 4+ save and worse units as well)

 Bill1138 wrote:

As for this farce that your proposed rules make a 36"/S4/ap-/Fleshbane/Force Psiclencer not much better vs. an MC than a Lascannon? Please, show us where a single Lascannon gets more than a 0.00% chance at killing a MC with more than a single wound remaining.
This thing isn't just "fairly good" at killing MC's. A single one can potentially pull it off when standing still. Paired up, you're on purely average rolls guaranteed to kill a 3+ save MC. (and still insta-jib even a 2+ save MC on average rolls)

That's a pretty good definition of "over powered."

As I've shown, it is costly for the Grey Knights to pair up on weapons. It is only cost-effective to do so with Purifiers and Purgation Squads, neither of which can Deep Strike, has better than a 3+ armor save, or any Invulnerable save.

Here you make the additional fallacy, of using the calculated odds of wounding a model with a 5+ save in place of a model with a 3+ save. A stationary Psilencer has 6 shots, hitting 2/3 of the time, wounding 5/6 of the time, and getting past a 3+ save 1/3 of the time, and Force on 3 Warp Charges being passed about 85% of the time with a 8% chance of Perils, which could very well kill the Psilencer. (6)(2/3)(5/6)(1/3)(0.85) = 0.94 Unsaved Instant Death Wounds. That is statistically 1 (Wound) model killed. It is better than a Lascannon at killing Monstrous Creatures, but this comes at the expense of being able to harm vehicles at all. The Lascannon can reliably remove both Hull Points from Vehicles AND remove Wounds from Monstrous Creatures. The overall value of my proposed Psilencer is comparable to the Lascannon.

The Lascannon is terrible for stripping HP's due to it only ever being a single shot weapon. Hence why everyone loads up on either meltas for near guaranteed kills should they hit, or else they go for multi-shot weapons like grav.

And you need to stop assuming that 3+ is the average save for multi-wound models, because it is not:


Monstrous Creatures as a rule tend to be fielded with 3+ saves (some of whom must spend points to upgrade to a 3+). However, they only need ONE failed save vs. a Psilencer to cop it. With Fleshbane, it can be all but guaranteed to bump one off within a single Shooting phase when using the weapon in pairs.
That's also typically at least 200pts down the toilet. More often than not, outside of the handful of undercosted MC's, (Riptide, Dreadknight, Wraithknight), it's more like 225-250+ pts that's being removed.

Multi-wound units however tend to be 4+ or worse. Only Tau, Necrons & Marines get more than a couple of 3+ or better save multi-wound unit options.
Those units also tend to cost at least 200+pts a pop as well, outside of the undercosted Flesh Hounds.

 Bill1138 wrote:
As you are so quick to point out the number of multi-wound models in the game that move in units with other models, the Psilencer as I suggested it would only be able to kill 1-2 models from the unit per shooting phase (assuming they don't die to a Perils or get blown away by the superior firepower of most other armies), and the rest just keep coming. Essentially, it's only as powerful as whatever it's shooting at. Doesn't that sound like a Psychic Weapon appropriate of the 40k universe?

Perils is incredibly low risk, and will hit a random model, making it even less likely to kill the Psilencer model(s).

And no, with your proposed rules, even when shooting on the move, those units lose 1-2 models per unit w/Psilencers. Standing still and using their range to their advantage however, as I've proven, shows that a Fleshbane + Force gun will on average kill 4-5+ models from a such unit.

Most of these units (again, acknowledging that Flesh Hounds need fixing to dial them back slightly), are only typically sporting at best 4-6 models per unit. Losing 3-4 in one go, from a single enemy squad is crippling.

 Bill1138 wrote:


Psilencer: 36” S4, AP-, Salvo 4/6, Fleshbane, Force

To-Hit: Grey Knights hit on a 3+ with their BS4. This is a 2/3 chance to Hit.

To-Wound: With Fleshbane, the Psilencer would wound on a 2+. This is a 5/6 chance to Wound.

Saves: To my understanding, multi-wound models typically have at least a 3+ save. This is a 1/3 chance of not being saved.

So, the statistical number of wounds caused by a stationary Psilencer is calculated (6)(2/3)(5/6)(1/3)=60/54 = 1.11 Wounds.
Once you figure in the odds of successfully casting Force, that brings it down to 0.66 Instant Death Wounds.

The same unit firing a Lascannon would have a chance calculated (1)(2/3)(5/6)(1/1)=10/18
= 0.55 Wounds which are Instant Death against models up to T4. The Difference being that the Lascannon is also very good at destroying vehicles, while the Psycannon is incapable of even glancing better than AV10.

The thing that jumps out to me regarding the above math is that the Psilencer's gains the ID on all models and always wounds on a 2+ due to fleshbane, whereas the Lascannon loses ID immediately at T5. ID is a wound multiplier, so under your Psilencer example on a 4W model it's 0.66x4 = 2.64 wounds (Lascannon: 0.55x4=2.2). I think we can agree that ID on a 1W model doesn't matter (Shameless edit: Unless it's necrons!, oops) , If it had Fleshbane, it would be tremendously efficient on models >T5, which is why I think there is discontent with the suggestion. Using your math, however, switching to T5, 4 wound model (same 3+ save, since i'm lazy !):

Psilencer is calculated (6)(2/3)(5/6)(1/3)=60/54 = 1.11 Wounds * .59 (Force casting) *4 (# of wounds)= 2.64

Lascannon is calculated calculated (1)(2/3)(5/6)(1/1)=10/18 = 0.55 regular wounds

The scaling of *real* ID (rather than just 2x Toughness) plus fleshbane's scaling is what makes the combo extremely deadly, even with armor saves. The Psilencer has nearly 5x the effectiveness against a T5 4 wound model.

 reenon wrote:
The thing that jumps out to me regarding the above math is that the Psilencer's gains the ID on all models and always wounds on a 2+ due to fleshbane, whereas the Lascannon loses ID immediately at T5. ID is a wound multiplier, so under your Psilencer example on a 4W model it's 0.66x4 = 2.64 wounds (Lascannon: 0.55x4=2.2). I think we can agree that ID on a 1W model doesn't matter (Shameless edit: Unless it's necrons!, oops) , If it had Fleshbane, it would be tremendously efficient on models >T5, which is why I think there is discontent with the suggestion. Using your math, however, switching to T5, 4 wound model (same 3+ save, since i'm lazy !):

Psilencer is calculated (6)(2/3)(5/6)(1/3)=60/54 = 1.11 Wounds * .59 (Force casting) *4 (# of wounds)= 2.64

Lascannon is calculated calculated (1)(2/3)(5/6)(1/1)=10/18 = 0.55 regular wounds

The scaling of *real* ID (rather than just 2x Toughness) plus fleshbane's scaling is what makes the combo extremely deadly, even with armor saves. The Psilencer has nearly 5x the effectiveness against a T5 4 wound model.

I see where you're coming from, but how would you fix it? The Grey Knights need a good anti-hoard gun, and currently the simpest option is to turn the Psilencer into the gun we need. What profile do you think would be fair?

As far as anti-horde* goes, I personally think that S5/AP- Salvo 4/6 would work fine- massed S5 is incredibly murderous to T3 infantry and poses a substantial threat to T4 horde infantry (who tend to have a 6+ on average).

This then allows the S4/AP- profile to gain Force. If the S5 profile got Shred then that would increase the effectiveness against hordes as well.

While I personally don't see much problem with S5 and Force, I can understand that I might not be able to see the big picture on that count.

*A horde is a large number of typically people. A hoard however, is a substantial, usually hidden, stash of gubbins and bits that are particularly valuable and/or shiny.

I'm not quite sure what the answer is, but what other factions have good anti horde weapons that most people think are fair (in terms of str/ap/# of shots)? Why not just mimic that, and add in something with GK flavor (probably not force)? The Skitarii have a 2x wounds on a roll of 6, which could be interesting, and makes it an efficacious anti-horde weapon (maybe Heavy 4, since most GK units are relentless).

Whiskey144 wrote:
As far as anti-horde* goes, I personally think that S5/AP- Salvo 4/6 would work fine- massed S5 is incredibly murderous to T3 infantry and poses a substantial threat to T4 horde infantry (who tend to have a 6+ on average).

This then allows the S4/AP- profile to gain Force. If the S5 profile got Shred then that would increase the effectiveness against hordes as well.

While I personally don't see much problem with S5 and Force, I can understand that I might not be able to see the big picture on that count.

*A horde is a large number of typically people. A hoard however, is a substantial, usually hidden, stash of gubbins and bits that are particularly valuable and/or shiny.

Even in its current incarnation, the Psilencer is pretty boss at killing masses of T3/T4 5+ or worse saves. Even compared to the stronger Psycannon, as due to rounding to account for the fact you can't have decimal results with dice, they are equally effective against your typical horde unit of Guardsmen/Cultists/Boyz/Gaunts/etc... When massed together, the Psilencers are also better against T3 targets due to sheer weight of fire having a more profound impact vs. fewer higher strength shots.

S5 with or without Shred would definitely cement their role in this regard however!

Granted this takes into account that the horde unit in question is at least claiming 5+ cover save, but then, outside of playing games on Planet Bowling Ball, it's not hard to gain some kind of minor cover save. (while armies like Orks & Tyranids can generate their own moving cover with the likes of Kustom Force Fields or Venomthropes)

Sure the Psycannon can double out T3 multi-wound stuff, but there's no such thing as a multi-wound T3 [b]unit[/I] right now, outside of a Biomancy Psyker landing Enfeeble and casting it successfully on a multi-wound T4 unit... (at which point, I'd call that "tactics" )
Otherwise, multi-wound T3 is limited to only IC's, typically of the type you don't really require high strength to kill anyways!

 reenon wrote:
I'm not quite sure what the answer is, but what other factions have good anti horde weapons that most people think are fair (in terms of str/ap/# of shots)? Why not just mimic that, and add in something with GK flavor (probably not force)? The Skitarii have a 2x wounds on a roll of 6, which could be interesting, and makes it an efficacious anti-horde weapon (maybe Heavy 4, since most GK units are relentless).

Note that Grey Knights are typically a smaller army than most other factions, so we have less shooting to try to achieve the same effect. So for an appropriate cost, I believe it's not uncalled for for them to get a weapon that is better at anti-hoarde than the other armies' equivalents.

Also, most Grey Knights don't have Relentless. Only the Dreadknights and Terminator units have that benefit. Strike Squads, Purifiers, Interceptors, and Purgation Squads don't have it. This is why Salvo and the 36" range was suggested, the Heavy Profile on the Psilencer and the pitifully short range on a Salvo Psycannon made them useless to PAGK models, which in turn made those units (with the exception of the Interceptors' mobility or the Purifiers' Cleansing Flame) unfieldable. So the PAGK need to actually be able to use the weapons on the move without being reduced to a laughable chance to kill any opponents.

To reiterate: with a 36" range, when a non-relentless model moves, it can fire 18" (less than the rest of the unit), and if it uses its maximum range (either by being relentless or stationary) the unit sacrifices the rest of the models' ability to shoot with their 24" weapons, thus balancing it out.

The big trouble we encounter is that Force is the only reason anyone would possibly consider the current Psilencer. The Grey Knights are desperately lacking in ranged weapons capable of bringing down Monstrous Creatures or stopping encroaching hoardes, and the chance of Instant-deathing them is extremely appealing. However, as small as the Grey Knight army is, and as much as we pay per model, we can't afford to purchase upgrades that are statistically unlikely to do anything, which is the biggest problem with the current Psilencer.

What if the profile were changed to:
Psilencer: 36", S6, AP-, Salvo 8/12, Poisoned (4+)

Gatling Psilencer, 24", S6, AP- Heavy 24, Poisoned (4+)

No Force. No Shred. Just a ton of shots with NO AP. This would make it better at anti-hoarde, AND anti-Monstrous Creature, yet removes the "inta-gib" that gets peoples' undergarments in a twist. Poisoned would only come into effect for truly ridiculous Monstrous Creatures like the Wraithknight. It fits the Fluff, and is perfectly balanced if appropriately priced.

On the low end of the spectrum there's T3 units with about a 5+ save. The shots will count as Instant Death against T3 models due to double Strength.
Stationary Psilencer (12)(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) = 4.44 Unsaved Wounds
Mobile Psilencer (8)(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) = 2.96 Unsaved Wounds

Towards the middle of the spectrum there's Daemonprinces at T5, 3+ saves. It is not Instant Death, and Poisoned doesn't come into effect.
Stationary Psilencer (12)(2/3)(2/3)(1/3) = 1.78 Unsaved Wounds
Mobile Psilencer (8)(2/3)(2/3)(1/3) = 1.19 Unsaved Wounds

Towards the high end of the spectrum there's the Wraithknight at T8, 3+ saves. Poisoned finally comes into play, causing wounds on a 4+ instead of a 6+, meaning the weapon actually has a chance to get wounds past the enemy's saves.
Stationary Psilencer (12)(2/3)(1/2)(1/3) = 1.33 Unsaved Wounds
Mobile Psilencer (8)(2/3)(1/2)(1/3) = 0.89 Unsaved Wounds

7th Edition places high value on mobility and the Shooting Phase. Grey Knights typically have fewer models, so each model is expected to do more. So the Grey Knights' anti-hoarde weapon needs to statistically be able to deal unsaved damage every turn. The models will most often be firing on the move with the "mobile" profile, though it gives some viability back to non-mobile units, like those holding Comms Relays, or Objectives.

If you agree with this suggestion, what do you believe should be the point cost on the Psilencer?

Bill, you cannot be taken seriously; all of your proposed rules are extremely broken and childish.

24 S6 that reroll to wound because of poison... Wow, that's idiotic.

If you expect GW to enforce this then I want normal bolters (not your storm bolters) to become strength D and each have infinite range with 80 shots each; that is how idiotic your suggestions sound.

SGTPozy wrote:
Bill, you cannot be taken seriously; all of your proposed rules are extremely broken and childish.

24 S6 that reroll to wound because of poison... Wow, that's idiotic.

If you expect GW to enforce this then I want normal bolters (not your storm bolters) to become strength D and each have infinite range with 80 shots each; that is how idiotic your suggestions sound.

You do realize the average GK army has like 14 models in it right?

SGTPozy wrote:
Bill, you cannot be taken seriously; all of your proposed rules are extremely broken and childish.

24 S6 that reroll to wound because of poison... Wow, that's idiotic.

If you expect GW to enforce this then I want normal bolters (not your storm bolters) to become strength D and each have infinite range with 80 shots each; that is how idiotic your suggestions sound.

Check pg 169 of the Core Rulebook. There is a paragraph for melee, and another paragraph for shooting. The re-rolls are only stated in the Melee paragraph.

"Childish" and "idiotic" are overt insults and you're offering nothing constructive. You also ignore the statistics of what the weapon is capable of when you make your comments. If you can't follow the forum's rules, then GO AWAY.

 Xenomancers wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Bill, you cannot be taken seriously; all of your proposed rules are extremely broken and childish.

24 S6 that reroll to wound because of poison... Wow, that's idiotic.

If you expect GW to enforce this then I want normal bolters (not your storm bolters) to become strength D and each have infinite range with 80 shots each; that is how idiotic your suggestions sound.

You do realize the average GK army has like 14 models in it right?

Only because they spam nothing but Dreadknights


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bill1138 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Bill, you cannot be taken seriously; all of your proposed rules are extremely broken and childish.

24 S6 that reroll to wound because of poison... Wow, that's idiotic.

If you expect GW to enforce this then I want normal bolters (not your storm bolters) to become strength D and each have infinite range with 80 shots each; that is how idiotic your suggestions sound.

Check pg 169 of the Core Rulebook. There is a paragraph for melee, and another paragraph for shooting. The re-rolls are only stated in the Melee paragraph.

"Childish" and "idiotic" are overt insults and you're offering nothing constructive. You also ignore the statistics of what the weapon is capable of when you make your comments. If you can't follow the forum's rules, then GO AWAY.

You have to admit that your proposed rules are very fandex-ish. They're extremely broken as Tyranids' TLDWBlW is way too good, and that's only a quarter of the shots AND range than your 'fix' (yours is also the same price so yours is 100-200% superior in every way!

Yeah, sure I got poison mixed up but it still stands! No one should have that many shots (and to think people complain about Eldar's S6 and S7 spam).

SGTPozy wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Bill, you cannot be taken seriously; all of your proposed rules are extremely broken and childish.

24 S6 that reroll to wound because of poison... Wow, that's idiotic.

If you expect GW to enforce this then I want normal bolters (not your storm bolters) to become strength D and each have infinite range with 80 shots each; that is how idiotic your suggestions sound.

You do realize the average GK army has like 14 models in it right?

Only because they spam nothing but Dreadknights

2 Independent Characters, 2 Terminator Squads and 1 Dreadknight comes to about 1,000pts, at 13 models. Grey Knights are a tiny army and taking 2 of a unit IS NOT SPAMMING.

You try building an army without taking 2 of any units. You'll get slaughtered.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bill1138 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Bill, you cannot be taken seriously; all of your proposed rules are extremely broken and childish.

24 S6 that reroll to wound because of poison... Wow, that's idiotic.

If you expect GW to enforce this then I want normal bolters (not your storm bolters) to become strength D and each have infinite range with 80 shots each; that is how idiotic your suggestions sound.

Check pg 169 of the Core Rulebook. There is a paragraph for melee, and another paragraph for shooting. The re-rolls are only stated in the Melee paragraph.

"Childish" and "idiotic" are overt insults and you're offering nothing constructive. You also ignore the statistics of what the weapon is capable of when you make your comments. If you can't follow the forum's rules, then GO AWAY.

You have to admit that your proposed rules are very fandex-ish. They're extremely broken as Tyranids' TLDWBlW is way too good, and that's only a quarter of the shots AND range than your 'fix' (yours is also the same price so yours is 100-200% superior in every way!

Yeah, sure I got poison mixed up but it still stands! No one should have that many shots (and to think people complain about Eldar's S6 and S7 spam).

No, your point doesn't stand. Your argument is based on false assumptions, and you refuse to acknowledge the scenario to be different than what you depicted.

You can't compare a weapon from a hoarde army to one from a tiny elite army. How a weapon performs in one scenario has nothing to do with how it performs in the other.

Umm... Most people play larger games than 1000 points...

My point does still stand as S6 wounds most units on a 2+, so yes it is still devastating.

Tyranids is hardly a hoarde army and that gun can only be taken by MCs... So yeah, I can see how that's a hoards army /sarcasm.