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2015/04/29 15:16:52
Subject: Something for us non believers to mull over
And all things considered, God is incredibly merciful. The wages of sin is death, all sin. But he is merciful enough to offer the choice of redemption instead of immediate sentencing.
Anyway you may think god can say what's ok and what isn't but i don't think that's the case. Besides even if he was to know everything he could go about it in a less jerky fashion. I mean when you kill people they don't learn anything. They probably had no idea of the wrongs they committed because they didn't know of your supposed god and his rules.
See, this is basically you saying you know better than God. Which is pretty damn arrogant. Who are you to say what is right and wrong when God has already spoken on the subject?
And how do you know that those people weren't given the option of repentance or that they didn't know what they were doing was wrong? You weren't there, but God was.
Another problem i have is when you go to the new testament jesus is mostly a pretty cool dude. With the exception of maybe hell everything seems ok. I mean eternal damnation for one life time's worth of sin. Even by human laws killing somebody is equivalent to life or death sentences. Having somebody live in eternal pain is just ridiculously terrible. Not to mention the idea of going to heaven is also pretty ridiculous since everything would have to be even better than it previously was for things to keep seeming great to you. The reason for this is when things are pretty good all the time the bar is raised and you expect more (the average is pretty good in this case). Suddenly everybody in heaven is just super spoiled by good things. "Ugh just a mansion. I want 10 mansions!"
This just shows ignorance of the subject matter.
Eternal damnation is terrible because sin is terrible, and that is the penalty for it.
As for Heaven, we aren't told much about it. Other than its going to be an amazing place, so amazing its beyond our comprehension. Thats how it works. God is also there, and he is also amazing, and also infinite. So simply learning more about an infinite God alone would take eternity. Imagine the best book you ever read, except it has no end. The story just continues forever.
My biggest issue is the old testament where god is just kind of horrible to people and the lessons are basically don't **** with god or else and everything's ok as long as you can say it's done by god's will.
So yeah i don't mind punishment as long as the points are stated and clear to those being punished. Even then in many cases the old testament usually reads like a punishment hand book rather than anything about forgiveness or giving gifts to the good and deserving. It's kind of telling that some people use religion as an excuse to fight their wars. Even in the bible saying you had god's will was probably just as an excuse to make people think of their enemies as evil and undeserving of mercy or life. This kind of extremism is not needed and i think it's very harmful to people.
So yeah the old and new testaments seem so different i wouldn't be surprised if jewish people were confused by the different books. It's like the whole bible switches gears from unforgiving and wrathful to forgiving.
The punishment and reasons for it are pretty clear in the Bible.
If you take the whole thing together, and actually attempt to understand it, you can see how the story fits together. Mankind sins, and God shows how you can't attain forgiveness through works and deeds, but instead you have to accept his forgiveness through Jesus, and the sign of that forgiveness is following his commandments.
Also i'm still of the opinion that the bible is a series of stories that were told over and over through oral tradition till the point where they were heard wrong, misinterpreted and in some cases exaggerated. Greek mythology is similar when you talk about Troy. People believe Troy existed but that certain events with odysseus were far-fetched and mythical.
Even if the god of the bible is real (inaccuracies and improbable events), even if you can explain why there are no supernatural events now and all that i still think god himself isn't that good in a personality. I know people that are jerks and i hate them. Why should god be held to a different standard for acting the same way? That personality type just always bothers me regardless of who it is. I mean think about it. If god is so forgiving why is it an abusive parent can be more forgiving than god can be and we can still hate the abusive parent but not god? Why is that the case?
Again, you attempt to put a human definition of morality onto God without understanding his nature, or accepting that he is God and not someone beholden to any mortal notion of right and wrong.
As for why there are no more supernatural events, its because we live in the time of silence between the fullness of time and the second coming.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/29 15:36:28
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
@Grey Templar: Provided that god is all-knowing and provided he actually exists. How do you know somebody didn't say this is what god said and just lied that god said that or that it even was god saying it. Think about how many types of smaller forms of each religion there is. Also given some of the minutia given in these books why would you leave out something that would've mattered such as a chance at forgiveness or repentance?
Yeah totally because stealing something and not apologizing for it is worth eternal damnation. You can't seriously agree with that. It's infinitely more punishment and wrongs than the original wrong in the first place. It's like saying don't steal bread or i'll roll you over completely with a steam-roller (as in absolutely dead and painfully so).
So basically if you don't follow the commandments 100% of the time and accidentally mess one up no amount of being a good person for the rest of your life and helping others will ever atone for that. So i guess it's hell or possibly purgatory for you. That's really nice.
So because he's God you have to listen 100% to everything he says. Even if God's word was only told to his 'chosen ones' which may be outright lying that it was his word and being 'chosen' in the first place. The writers or various people could also have misinterpreted or lied in the process or left things out of the bible. In fact we know that they did in fact leave stuff out of the bible when making it.
The time of silence huh. That sounds like a really convenient way to explain away why we don't see miracles or god throwing down his wrath. Same goes with beyond our comprehension, all-knowing or god being something you can never question. Notice how this all fits with not asking questions. Perhaps it's because when you do you realize it's just a massive load and that perhaps you're threatened and commanded not to think.
Part of the reason why i stopped being christian is the fact that it seemed like a bunch of fear-mongering. I felt i shouldn't be afraid of doing the wrong thing and going to hell because i didn't pee the right way (basically what it feels like). Seriously you mean to tell me whatever mortal sin i do that will affect me and others for just one lifetime is worthy of punishment or reward for all time. Keep in mind this only affects them for one life time of probably 80 years tops and they could still repair the damage i did to an extent. Oh and god is doing this to everybody.
You know what i can understand though? I can understand people not being terrible to each other. I can also realize that in general god is endlessly punishing people in the old testament. He could have just rewarded the good ones and possibly punished the bad ones but no he just punishes any non-believers and any other living things which aren't human and in the crossfire.
God and the people who claim to act of god should be held accountable (the pope included) just like everybody else or like anybody else will act as if the rules don't apply to them and do whatever the **** they please (in other words be an ***). Not to mention if you can come up with a simple system to help a group out why does it absolutely need to have so much killing. Perhaps you know you can teach people why they shouldn't do something rather than kill them without telling them why. Giving no reasons for your actions to the opposing side makes no sense. It's like me punishing somebody and never telling them why. If god could've told the baddies why then why didn't he? Not only that but considering an entire group the bad guys (who probably twirl their mustaches) justifies doing terrible things to them for some. Imagine if somebody said a person was a horrible nazi and they only said something a little offensive or racist. What would happen if i listened to this person and treated the supposed nazi like a war criminal. Claiming a side to be bad or extreme only allows us an excuse to treat them badly and if we truly believe it with what seems like evidence to us than we will act on it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/29 21:55:25
@flamingkillamajig: one less literal, more nuanced Christian and Jewish worldview is that the Old Testament wasn't written by God, just by men who believed in God, and the Old Testament is a legendary history that chronicles an evolving understanding of the Jewish people and their God.
I'm not mentioning this to you with the intent to persuade, because I'm an atheist, but not all Christians and Jews believe that Yahweh was really out there smiting people, or that Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc were even real people.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/29 22:04:55
2015/04/29 22:14:36
Subject: Something for us non believers to mull over
jasper76 wrote: @flamingkillamajig: one less literal, more nuanced Christian and Jewish worldview is that the Old Testament wasn't written by God, just by men who believed in God, and the Old Testament is a legendary history that chronicles an evolving understanding of the Jewish people and their God.
I'm not mentioning this to you with the intent to persuade, because I'm an atheist, but not all Christians and Jews believe that Yahweh was really out there smiting people, or that Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc were even real people.
I heard about this before somewhat. Personally the new testament isn't even that bad as far as a moral code goes (far as i know anyway). It's more the literal version of the bible that i can't stand. That said it's your right to believe whatever you wish as long as you don't allow it to make you do terrible things to others.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/29 22:21:06
Yeah, Christianity is a spectrum from people who admire Jesus as purely a literary figure, to people who believe every word in the Bible must be true, with so much in between its hard to even say the word "Christianity" has much common meaning anymore besides thinking Jesus is admirable.
I think Jesus had some nice things to say about helping those less fortunate, some morally bad things to say as well, but even if I thought it was all good, the belief system rests on the premise that there is a divine intelligence behind the universe, which is the very premise that people like me find no compelling evidence for.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/29 22:24:57
2015/04/29 22:24:21
Subject: Something for us non believers to mull over
flamingkillamajig wrote: Yeah totally because stealing something and not apologizing for it is worth eternal damnation. You can't seriously agree with that. It's infinitely more punishment and wrongs than the original wrong in the first place. It's like saying don't steal bread or i'll roll you over completely with a steam-roller (as in absolutely dead and painfully so).
I love how Muslims call God the “most merciful”. Condemning people to an eternity of torture, and for the crime of not believing he/she/it exists is being the most merciful? Riiiiiight.
(And it is basically the same for Christians.)
flamingkillamajig wrote: So basically if you don't follow the commandments 100% of the time and accidentally mess one up no amount of being a good person for the rest of your life and helping others will ever atone for that.
Of course! Disrespecting your parents, even if you are the son of Adolf Hitler, is totally a terrible crime deserving of an eternity of torture. Helping others? That is irrelevant.
flamingkillamajig wrote: The time of silence huh. That sounds like a really convenient way to explain away why we don't see miracles or god throwing down his wrath.
That sounds straight out of a South Park episode mocking scientology, actually.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2015/04/29 23:42:25
Subject: Re:Something for us non believers to mull over
I've always thought that if any god would condem me for not worshiping them or following stupid rules, when I otherwise live my life to the best of my ability, and try not to hurt others, it not a god I want to associate with. Especially as I have no way of knowing if their followers are telling the truth or not, or knowing they, themselves, exist.
And it's the worship part that gets to me especially. I will never prostrate myself to anything, be it man, god, or anything in between. My morality and consciousness is beholden only to myself, and I will give my freedom to nothing and no one. And why the feth does an all-powerful, all-knowing, being need people to worship them anyway? Unless they are an egoist who wants constant praise to assure themselves they are better than everyone.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/29 23:43:47
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
2015/04/29 23:45:35
Subject: Something for us non believers to mull over
Jesus was a real person, and we know that as certainly as we can know that about any historical figure of antiquity. Just wanted to point that out. Whether or not you believe he was divine is another story, but the historical person did exist. Those who claim otherwise are usually promoting what amount to conspiracy theories.
Not always. One of my friends said it was a knock off of greek mythology with hercules being zeus's son. Of course hercules was kind of a jerk in the non-disney version of the story. Oddly enough jesus seemed pretty good in a way most people would have trouble being (provided all the stories are true and nothing was left out).
This kind of stuff has been debunked, really hard. You might want to do a bit more reading on it (seriously, it's pretty interesting stuff). There is much, much more evidence that Jesus existed. Virtually every legitimate scholar of antiquity is in agreement on this subject.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Yeah totally because stealing something and not apologizing for it is worth eternal damnation. You can't seriously agree with that. It's infinitely more punishment and wrongs than the original wrong in the first place. It's like saying don't steal bread or i'll roll you over completely with a steam-roller (as in absolutely dead and painfully so).
I love how Muslims call God the “most merciful”. Condemning people to an eternity of torture, and for the crime of not believing he/she/it exists is being the most merciful? Riiiiiight.
(And it is basically the same for Christians.)
flamingkillamajig wrote: So basically if you don't follow the commandments 100% of the time and accidentally mess one up no amount of being a good person for the rest of your life and helping others will ever atone for that.
Of course! Disrespecting your parents, even if you are the son of Adolf Hitler, is totally a terrible crime deserving of an eternity of torture. Helping others? That is irrelevant.
flamingkillamajig wrote: The time of silence huh. That sounds like a really convenient way to explain away why we don't see miracles or god throwing down his wrath.
That sounds straight out of a South Park episode mocking scientology, actually.
For as much as you criticize religion, and with as much authority as you try to convey in your posts, your breadth of knowledge on the subject is incredibly weak. There is more than just one unified view on most of these subjects, and you seem to be completely unaware of any other than the most extreme. Maybe you should try expanding your horizons a bit. Are you interested in actually learning anything about religion, or are you satisfied with criticizing it from a position of ignorance?
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Co'tor Shas wrote: Yeah, Jesus (almost) defiantly existed, the contention is whether he was the sun of god and whether god exists at all.
Yes. You can argue all day whether or not you believe he was the son of God, but if you want to try to argue that he wasn't a real person, the deck is stacked against you. It's basically like trying to claim that Julius Caesar wasn't a real person.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/29 23:52:34
Should check out Mormon afterlife. Pretty merciful. Gotta do some unbelievable, heinous, egregious stuff to go to Mormon Hell, and even then there's no torture.
IIRC, there is also no jewish hell. I think it was a christian creation originally. Not 100% sure though.
Judism is pretty cool, or at least whatever sect the synagogue near me is. I have quite a few Jewish friends, and have talked to Rabbi there. His interpretation is that it's actually harder for jews to go to heaven than non-jews, because (he thinks) that all non-jews have to to is be good, honorable people and jews have to follow all the rules. I quite like that interpretation. Just because you don't believe the claims of people that have no evidence to back them up, doesn't preclude you from being rewarded. I'
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
2015/04/30 00:43:56
Subject: Re:Something for us non believers to mull over
Co'tor Shas wrote: IIRC, there is also no jewish hell. I think it was a christian creation originally. Not 100% sure though.
Zoroastrianism has a hell that predates Jesus' hell. It is not dissimilar, with a Satan figure and everything. But it's not eternal.
Obviously the Greeks had Tartarus before Jesus' hell was ever recorded.
Jesus and his disciples likely would have been familiar with both myths. Certainly his biographers were, as Magi (Zoroastrian priests) play a prominent role in the nativity story, and iirc the earliest known copies of at least some of the gospels were written in Greek.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/04/30 00:50:42
2015/04/30 01:36:20
Subject: Re:Something for us non believers to mull over
Co'tor Shas wrote: IIRC, there is also no jewish hell. I think it was a christian creation originally. Not 100% sure though.
Zoroastrianism has a hell that predates Jesus' hell. It is not dissimilar, with a Satan figure and everything. But it's not eternal.
Obviously the Greeks had Tartarus before Jesus' hell was ever recorded.
Jesus and his disciples likely would have been familiar with both myths. Certainly his biographers were, as Magi (Zoroastrian priests) play a prominent role in the nativity story, and iirc the earliest known copies of at least some of the gospels were written in Greek.
Part of Jesus's resurrection is the sundering of hell. How else are you going to tell a Greek/roman population that "btw, there is this cool new place called heaven, but all your ancestors are trapped in Hades... Too bad." So during his 3 days, Jesus marched into Hades and scooped out all the people from the "non suffering" side of Hades, and kicked the rest to the realm of fire... So basically Hades wasn't Christian hell, but after Jesus was done, everyone was basically in new heaven or lake of fire "new hell".
So basically both the Greeks and the Jews had beliefs of afterlife which was no where as extreme of the new heaven/hell, but to make people feel better about their ancestors, they had to have a solution so you could see Greek GranGran and Jewish PopPop when you die.
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MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
2015/04/30 01:40:04
Subject: Something for us non believers to mull over
Grey Templar wrote: If you buy into the idea that God exists, then you also have to buy into the fact that he calls the shots. He's God. End of discussion. You can't apply any human levels of morality onto him, because he is the definer of absolute morality.
Then the concepts of "good" and "evil" no longer have anything to do with the way we understand them in human contexts. Calling god "good" is a meaningless statement because you've redefined "good" to mean "agreeing with and obeying the commands of god". All you've really said is "god obeys god". So you have to pick one: either god is beyond human morality and therefore you can't say "god is good", or "god is good" is a meaningful statement but god is subject to being judged by human standards.
You have to accept that God is both loving and good, but he's also just and does what is right according to his law.
No you don't. An evil entity with god-level power is just as plausible as a good one, as is a morally-neutral entity (the classic "divine watchmaker" god). Having vast universe-creating power doesn't automatically mean that you're good. A god that created us just to enjoy our suffering is no more or less plausible than one that created us with benevolent intentions.
That means punishment and judgement of those who rebel against him, and again you must accept that he is the ultimate arbiter. You may not like it, but who are you to say otherwise?
Having the ultimate power to enforce punishments is not the same thing as being morally correct. If I hold a gun to your head, demand that you obey me, and kill you if you don't I am clearly able to judge and punish you. But that authority is nothing more than "might makes right". And having hell as a threat instead of a gun doesn't change this situation.
And all things considered, God is incredibly merciful.
No, the Christian god isn't merciful at all. He's a sadistic tyrant and a genocidal zealot who issues punishments that are vastly disproportionate to any supposed offense. If the Christian god was a human ruler issuing those punishments he would be universally condemned at minimum, and quite possibly find himself on the wrong end of military intervention to save his victims. And either way he would be forever remembered as a brutal tyrant that made Hitler look like a pretty decent guy. Replacing the hypothetical human ruler with god doesn't change this at all.
The wages of sin is death, all sin.
And guess who invented that penalty: god himself. Consider a human situation: I break into your house, hold a gun to your head, and inform you that having a forum name with "Grey" in it is a capital offense in my moral system. But then I offer you a chance to save yourself: you can delete your forum account, give me all your money, and spend the rest of your life preaching the wisdom of Peregrinism. I'm pretty sure you'd take that offer, but would you consider it reasonable for other people to praise my mercy? Or would you consider me nothing more than a sadistic bully who only "saved" you from my own violence?
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/04/30 01:59:36
Subject: Something for us non believers to mull over
Hordini wrote: I don't think Jesus ever mentioned a "lake of fire" hell. If I remember right, that's from Revelation, not from the Gospels.
and post-death peter... Anything after Jesus was crucified came from "someone else"... You gotta remember a lot of the crazy S which is held as core aspects of Christianity are not from Jesus and were either divine inspiration given to his apostles or manufactured by "someone" later.
You never heard Jesus say "I gonna sock old satan in the jaw and get your granny from Hades to come live with me in eternal bliss" but someone who just lost their mentor and savior began telling people that when they were telling others of the life and teachings of Jesus and needed a logical ending to his story besides "he was a cool guy, he died, we were sad."
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
2015/04/30 02:45:42
Subject: Re:Something for us non believers to mull over
I’m really sure I get the point of theorising this was a meteor. The meteor itself is not that remarkable – they happen about once every 100 years. So meteors causing blinding light had been witnessed a lot of times before, and a lot of times since.
What makes Paul’s story remarkable is how it changed Paul, and how Paul then changed the world. Whether it a sign from God, or a meteor, or Paul just had some bad milk that morning doesn’t really matter.
Medium of Death wrote: Why discredit useful allegory with science? Which seems to be the main goal of atheists.
It's great when people declare what the goals of other groups must be. Especially when describing uncoordinated groups like atheists. It's always an honest and productive effort to engage in discussion, and never at all just a piece of petty tribalist bashing.
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Manchu wrote: Some do. There are groups of atheists in the US and UK who get together on a certain day to sing songs and listen to a speaker talk about non-believer values. Sometimes, this even happens in a church building.
You know better than to judge the majority by the actions of a rare few. Especially when that rare few are newsworthy precisely because they are very different to the majority.
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curran12 wrote: Not on you, more of a general sentiment towards the thread and what you might call the loud, public face of atheists online and the continue quest to 'gotcha' those who are religious
There are atheist jerks, lots of them. The best way to disempower those atheist jerks is engage with the rest of us atheists who don’t bash your religion.
The worst thing you can do is come storming in to a reasonable thread like this looking to attack atheists, based on what you believe some atheists to be like. Then you’re re-affirming what the atheist jerks believe, and acting no better than them.
Like it or not, the loud, irritating ones are what one tends to think about when the name comes up.
If that’s the image you have then that’s your problem for you to deal with. Most of us aren’t like that, and you need to improve your understanding to engage with atheists properly.
Honestly, I’m having a hard time understanding how your statement is anything other than a justification for negative stereotyping.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/30 03:00:07
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2015/04/30 09:36:55
Subject: Something for us non believers to mull over
And all things considered, God is incredibly merciful. The wages of sin is death, all sin. But he is merciful enough to offer the choice of redemption instead of immediate sentencing.
Like it or not, the loud, irritating ones are what one tends to think about when the name comes up.
If that’s the image you have then that’s your problem for you to deal with. Most of us aren’t like that, and you need to improve your understanding to engage with atheists properly.
I think we can agree that no cause, philosophy or movement deserves to be judged by what advocates on the Internet say about it.
"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich."
2015/04/30 17:36:13
Subject: Re:Something for us non believers to mull over
But religious babble is in no way more productive to this discussion than trolling. Especially since the OP did not want the thread to go there.
You know, I was going to type up an intelligent explanation for why all of the above is wrong, but I just got off work and, frankly, will have better things tonight to do than play Internet Argument. Maybe if you caught me last night or tomorrow....
Anyway, if you honestly believe what you say, the responsible thing isn't to make a post saying, "I can't hear you lalalala!", it's to report the post, and cite your reason for it being off topic/trolling.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Yeah, Jesus (almost) defiantly existed, the contention is whether he was the sun of god and whether god exists at all.
Actually, it wasn't until about 200ish years AFTER his death/birth in the roman empire that there was ANY mention of Christianity, and that was some lowly scribe simply stating "there is a cult that calls themselves Christians" (more or less, not exactly what the scholar said). Also, Jesus's "story" is INCREDIBLY similar to Horus's story (not the 30k horus obv, the Egyptian one). Also, interestingly enough, there's not a picture of any kind (drawn, painted, scribbled, etc), or written word from Jesus's time about him.
Few things to sum it up:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/31/1326090/-Scholars-acknowledge-no-evidence-Jesus-existed (bit lengthy) Please ignore this link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTqyocFOMXE (First minute and a half sums it up, but the video itself goes into a little better detail, and in the description there's a link to a much more in depth video. Also warning towards 4:10 or so, he starts swearing if anyone is sensitive to that.)
A lot of the stuff about Jesus' story being similar to Horus' story stems from the movie Zeitgeist, and much of the material in that film is simply factually incorrect.
And Jesus was Jewish and so were his close followers, so I wouldn't expect mentions of Christianity to be popping up all over the place in his lifetime. Christianity wasn't a term that any of them used while they were alive.
That Daily Kos article you posted is a complete crock as well, because if you were actually familiar with Bart Ehrman you would know that he pretty firmly believes that Jesus existed.
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Spoiler:
Bart Ehrman discusses this starting at 51:15.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/03 17:55:24
Hordini wrote: A lot of the stuff about Jesus' story being similar to Horus' story stems from the movie Zeitgeist, and much of the material in that film is simply factually incorrect.
I honestly don't know enough about zeitgeist to say anything on it. But:
They're both only childs
Both mothers are Meri/Mary, however with Meri, it simply means "beloved", i.e. Meri-Isis. However, the time difference between when jesus was supposed to exist and when the Egyptian mythology was prevalent had quite a massive time difference, so some translation errors could be expected.
Both Horus and Jesus had a rather powerful enemy try to kill them as a baby
Both were "rightful kings", instead of the one in charge
I'm not gonna get every single similarity, that'd take more time than I'm willing to invest honestly.
And Jesus was Jewish and so were his close followers, so I wouldn't expect mentions of Christianity to be popping up all over the place in his lifetime. Christianity wasn't a term that any of them used while they were alive.
So... How does that explain any lack of records of Jesus? It's not about what it's called, think you missed the point on that. I know that the term "Christianity" wouldn't pop up for awhile, but that doesn't explain the COMPLETE lack of evidence of anything that happened during the time he was supposedly alive.
That Daily Kos article you posted is a complete crock as well, because if you were actually familiar with Bart Ehrman you would know that he pretty firmly believes that Jesus existed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
Bart Ehrman discusses this starting at 51:15.
Spoiler:
“What sorts of things do pagan authors from the time of Jesus have to say about him? Nothing. As odd as it may seem, there is no mention of Jesus at all by any of his pagan contemporaries. There are no birth records, no trial transcripts, no death certificates; there are no expressions of interest, no heated slanders, no passing references – nothing. In fact, if we broaden our field of concern to the years after his death – even if we include the entire first century of the Common Era – there is not so much as a solitary reference to Jesus in any non-Christian, non-Jewish source of any kind. I should stress that we do have a large number of documents from the time – the writings of poets, philosophers, historians, scientists, and government officials, for example, not to mention the large collection of surviving inscriptions on stone and private letters and legal documents on papyrus. In none of this vast array of surviving writings is Jesus’ name ever so much as mentioned.” (pp. 56-57)
That's what I assume you're referring to. However if you read the article, it goes on to say... Update: I am trying to find if Ehrman was taken out of context by Raw Story to infer he doesn't believe Jesus existed. So might the rawstory article (http://www.rawstory.com/2014/08/did-historical-jesus-exist-growing-number-of-scholars-dont-think-so/) get what Bart Ehrman believes wrong/misconstrue what he wrote? Sure, assuming what that quote is, is someone Bart is quoting, and not his own words, I'm not gonna deny that, but at the same time that doesn't mean the entire theory of Jesus being a myth suddenly falls apart.
Again, I think this video
Spoiler:
explains everything very well. It's long, but it goes over all the evidence, or lack of, of Jesus.
DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+
bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
2015/05/03 19:10:38
Subject: Something for us non believers to mull over
Hordini wrote: A lot of the stuff about Jesus' story being similar to Horus' story stems from the movie Zeitgeist, and much of the material in that film is simply factually incorrect.
I honestly don't know enough about zeitgeist to say anything on it. But:
They're both only childs
Both mothers are Meri/Mary, however with Meri, it simply means "beloved", i.e. Meri-Isis. However, the time difference between when jesus was supposed to exist and when the Egyptian mythology was prevalent had quite a massive time difference, so some translation errors could be expected.
Both Horus and Jesus had a rather powerful enemy try to kill them as a baby
Both were "rightful kings", instead of the one in charge
I'm not gonna get every single similarity, that'd take more time than I'm willing to invest honestly.
Virtually all of the "similarities" between Horus and Jesus come about because people are woefully unfamiliar with ancient Egypt and are quoting material from debunked works by pseudo-scienists and conspiracy theorists.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And with Bart Ehrman, did you watch the part of the video I pointed out where he talks about the evidence that Jesus was a real person?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I read the whole article including the updates before I made my post. My point is, why are you using an article to support your argument that is admitted to be unreliable by its own author?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/03 19:13:06
Hordini wrote: A lot of the stuff about Jesus' story being similar to Horus' story stems from the movie Zeitgeist, and much of the material in that film is simply factually incorrect.
I honestly don't know enough about zeitgeist to say anything on it. But:
They're both only childs
Both mothers are Meri/Mary, however with Meri, it simply means "beloved", i.e. Meri-Isis. However, the time difference between when jesus was supposed to exist and when the Egyptian mythology was prevalent had quite a massive time difference, so some translation errors could be expected.
Both Horus and Jesus had a rather powerful enemy try to kill them as a baby
Both were "rightful kings", instead of the one in charge
I'm not gonna get every single similarity, that'd take more time than I'm willing to invest honestly.
Virtually all of the "similarities" between Horus and Jesus come about because people are woefully unfamiliar with ancient Egypt and are quoting material from debunked works by pseudo-scienists and conspiracy theorists.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And with Bart Ehrman, did you watch the part of the video I pointed out where he talks about the evidence that Jesus was a real person?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I read the whole article including the updates before I made my post. My point is, why are you using an article to support your argument that is admitted to be unreliable by its own author?
I did, what he said was "I have a whole book on it." and (paraphrased) "There's a whole lot." What I DIDN'T hear was specific proof. What I did hear was an appeal to authority (professors), appeal to popularity, and him babbling about something unrelated (evolution vs creationism, but the way he phrased sounded to me like he thought evolution explained how life started. (Which it doesn't, that's abiogenesis, for the record, evolution explains the diversity, and how animals change))
The burden of proof here is on Christians to provide reputable proof he exists now, from a reliable 3rd party source (again, i.e. roman records of some kind).
Have you watched MY videos yet? It TOTALLY destroys everything he's talking about. If his definition of a 3rd party source to Jesus existing is Jesus's disciples... holy crap. And Paul, an eyewitness? Now, I don't remember the EXACT time difference, but Paul was BORN decades AFTER Jesus died.
I'm not using the article anymore, you're right, let me it edit to reflect such, but If you have proof (i.e. roman census records, records of earthquakes that correspond with jesus's death/birth/miracles/etc) please feel free to post a link to them.
Did you listen to him answer the whole question, in which he talks about abundant attestations in early independent sources and specifically mentions an author who knew both Jesus' brother as well as Peter?
