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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Bournemouth, UK

DISCLAIMER

This post is aimed at non-believers. If you are a believer of God/Gods then that is your right, but be aware that the content may offend you. This isn't the intent of the post.

I stumbled upon this piece on the New Scientist and thought it was very interesting, especially when it's about things that may of happened and had a baring on the development of religions,[url] http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22630183.700-falling-meteor-may-have-changed-the-course-of-christianity.html?full=true#.VTjvls9FCUl
[/url]

Falling meteor may have changed the course of Christianity

The early evangelist Paul became a Christian because of a dazzling light on the road to Damascus, but one astronomer thinks it was an exploding meteor

NEARLY two thousand years ago, a man named Saul had an experience that changed his life, and possibly yours as well. According to Acts of the Apostles, the fifth book of the biblical New Testament, Saul was on the road to Damascus, Syria, when he saw a bright light in the sky, was blinded and heard the voice of Jesus. Changing his name to Paul, he became a major figure in the spread of Christianity.

William Hartmann, co-founder of the Planetary Science Institute in Tucson, Arizona, has a different explanation for what happened to Paul. He says the biblical descriptions of Paul's experience closely match accounts of the fireball meteor seen above Chelyabinsk, RussiaMovie Camera, in 2013.

Hartmann has detailed his argument in the journal Meteoritics & Planetary Science (doi.org/3vn). He analyses three accounts of Paul's journey, thought to have taken place around AD 35. The first is a third-person description of the event, thought to be the work of one of Jesus's disciples, Luke. The other two quote what Paul is said to have subsequently told others.

"Everything they are describing in those three accounts in the book of Acts are exactly the sequence you see with a fireball," Hartmann says. "If that first-century document had been anything other than part of the Bible, that would have been a straightforward story."

But the Bible is not just any ancient text. Paul's Damascene conversion and subsequent missionary journeys around the Mediterranean helped build Christianity into the religion it is today. If his conversion was indeed as Hartmann explains it, then a random space rock has played a major role in determining the course of history (see "Christianity minus Paul").

That's not as strange as it sounds. A large asteroid impact helped kill off the dinosaurs, paving the way for mammals to dominate the Earth. So why couldn't a meteor influence the evolution of our beliefs?

"It's well recorded that extraterrestrial impacts have helped to shape the evolution of life on this planet," says Bill Cooke, head of NASA's Meteoroid Environment Office in Huntsville, Alabama. "If it was a Chelyabinsk fireball that was responsible for Paul's conversion, then obviously that had a great impact on the growth of Christianity."

Hartmann's argument is possible now because of the quality of observations of the Chelyabinsk incident. The 2013 meteor is the most well-documented example of larger impacts that occur perhaps only once in 100 years. Before 2013, the 1908 blast in TunguskaMovie Camera, also in Russia, was the best example, but it left just a scattering of seismic data, millions of flattened trees and some eyewitness accounts. With Chelyabinsk, there is a clear scientific argument to be made, says Hartmann. "We have observational data that match what we see in this first-century account."

Shaping history's arc: the Chelyabinsk meteor (Image: RIA NovostiI/SPL)

The most obvious similarity is the bright light in the sky, "brighter than the sun, shining round me", according to Paul. That's in line with video from Chelyabinsk showing a light, estimated to be around three times as bright as the sun, that created quickly moving shadows as it streaked across the sky.

After witnessing the light, Paul and his companions fell to the ground. Hartmann says they may have been knocked over when the meteor exploded in the sky and generated a shock wave. At Chelyabinsk, the shock wave destroyed thousands of windows and knocked people off their feet.

Paul then heard the voice of Jesus asking why Paul, an anti-Christian zealot to begin with, was persecuting him. The three biblical accounts differ over whether his companions also heard this voice, or a meaningless noise. Chelyabinsk produced a thunderous, explosive sound.

Paul was also blinded, with one account blaming the brightness of the light. A few days later, "something like scales fell from his eye and he regained his sight". Our common idiom for suddenly understanding something stems from this description, but Hartmann says the phrase can be read literally. He suggests that Paul was suffering from photokeratitis, a temporary blindness caused by intense ultraviolet radiation.

"It's basically a bit of sunburn on the cornea of the eye. Once that begins to heal, it flakes off," says Hartmann. "This can be a perfectly literal statement for someone in the first century who doesn't really understand what's happening." The UV radiation at Chelyabinsk was strong enough to cause sunburn, skin peeling and temporary blindness.

Raj Das-Bhaumik of Moorfields Eye Hospital in London says the condition is common among welders whose eyes are exposed to bright sparks, but the symptoms aren't exactly as Hartmann is suggesting. "You wouldn't expect bits of the eye to fall off; I've not come across that at all," he says. It's possible that the thin skin of the eyelids could burn and peel off, he says, but that is unlikely to happen in isolation. "If this were a meteorite, I'm sure you'd have other damage as well."

Mark Bailey of Armagh Observatory in the UK, who previously identified a Tunguska-like event in Brazil in the 1930s, says it's worth analysing old texts for clues to ancient impacts – bearing in mind that accounts are shaped by what people knew at the time. "Sometimes that doesn't make sense to us, but it does make sense if you can reinterpret it." What does he think of Hartmann's argument? "He does a very detailed analysis," says Bailey.

"I would label it as informed speculation – Bill Hartmann is an excellent author," says Cooke. "But like so many other things in the ancient past there is no real concrete evidence, no smoking gun." And with no other accounts from the time to draw on, there is little additional evidence to confirm or disprove the idea.

A search for meteorites in and around Syria could prove fruitful – Chelyabinsk left small chunks all over the region – but even that would be inconclusive. "If a meteorite is discovered in modern Syria in the future, the first thing to test would be how long it's been on the Earth and whether it could potentially be associated with such a recent fall," says Bailey. But even with our best techniques, dating such a rock to the nearest hundred years would be difficult.

Even so, Hartmann believes we need to think seriously about the implications of his idea. "My goal is not to discredit anything that anybody wants to believe in," he says. "But if the spread of a major religion was motivated by misunderstanding a fireball, that's something we human beings ought to understand about ourselves."

Christianity minus Paul

IF A falling meteor did inspire Paul's conversion to Christianity (see main story), that makes a random event hugely important in the history of humanity. What if Paul hadn't seen the fireball?

"Some scholars call Paul the second founder of Christianity," says Justin Meggitt, a religious historian at the University of Cambridge. At the time, Christianity was a small offshoot of Judaism, but Paul helped preach a version of it that broke with Jewish law.

Paul wasn't the only first-century missionary, and without him Christianity would probably still have separated from Judaism and spread around the world, says Meggitt. But Paul's teachings have endured through the ages, and their absence would be felt.

"People's interpretation of Paul is absolutely fundamental to some of the central figures of Christianity," says Meggitt. For example, Martin Luther, who started the Protestant Reformation in 1517, was heavily inspired by Paul's letters.

Specific predictions about how Christianity and world events would have unfolded without Paul's influence are hard to make, says Meggitt, but "Christianity probably would be very different without him".

Live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about his religion. Respect others in their views and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life. Beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and of service to your people. When your time comes to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song, and die like a hero going home.

Lt. Rorke - Act of Valor

I can now be found on Facebook under the name of Wulfstan Design

www.wulfstandesign.co.uk

http://www.voodoovegas.com/
 
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

That's pretty cool.

Although, I prefer to be called a filthy heretic. not a non believer.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/23 13:19:06


Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

This article reminds me of religious people trying to literally explain the parting of the Red Sea/other miracles.

   
Made in us
Colonel





This Is Where the Fish Lives

 Manchu wrote:
This article reminds me of religious people trying to literally explain the parting of the Red Sea/other miracles.
Except in your example, that is a misguided attempt by religion to use science to prove the supernatural (which in itself is absurd). This is using science to describe non-supernatural event that was misinterpreted by an otherwise unknowing observer.

There is a big difference between the two.

 d-usa wrote:
"When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Manchu wrote:
This article reminds me of religious people trying to literally explain the parting of the Red Sea/other miracles.


Arguably Reed Sea.

Its very interesting if you like at the Bible also as a chronicle of certain events and leave out the supernatural driver behind them.

*Red Sea could have been a volcanic explosion and effectively a tsunami in the delta near the shore.
*Destruction of Sodom and Gammorah as an attempt to tell what happened to two very early villages hit by natural disaster.
*Great flood. There is evidence of a flooded regions in the Black Sea or Baltic Sea. Again a tsunami in an area not known for it, or just rising water could have been passed down generation by generation to become The Great Flood.

Its fascinating really, and similar items can be found in other religions, both still alive and dead.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
There is a big difference between the two.
They are both examples of projecting a contemporary world view (in both cases, a kind of materialist monism) on a past worldview. This presumption is the basis of fundamentalism. Paul understood his experience; whether we believe him is another matter.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/23 14:05:06


   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Better Call Sa...er Paul!

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord







Why discredit useful allegory with science? Which seems to be the main goal of atheists.

"HAHA A METEOR TALKED TO PAUL!"

"WHAT AN IDIOT!"

"EVERYTHING IN THE BIBLE IS NOW NULL AND VOID!"


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Medium of Death wrote:
Why discredit useful allegory with science? Which seems to be the main goal of atheists.

"HAHA A METEOR TALKED TO PAUL!"

"WHAT AN IDIOT!"

"EVERYTHING IN THE BIBLE IS NOW NULL AND VOID!"

http://new1.fjcdn.com/comments/Tips+fedora+grooms+neckbeard+throws+cape+over+shoulder+refills+chalice+_9d7feb97a66d1fb29b48b2d3ee146198.jpg


Oh the Euphoria!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/23 14:07:45


 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 Frazzled wrote:
Its very interesting if you like at the Bible also as a chronicle of certain events and leave out the supernatural driver behind them.
Maybe fascinating ... but of course you would also be fatally misinterpreting the text. All the more ironic when you read things like:
But if the spread of a major religion was motivated by misunderstanding a fireball, that's something we human beings ought to understand about ourselves.

   
Made in nl
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






North of your position

 Medium of Death wrote:
Why discredit useful allegory with science? Which seems to be the main goal of atheists.

Is it? Okay then.

   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




WA, USA

The fedora in this thread is spiking.

 Ouze wrote:

Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
 
   
Made in de
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





From a religious point of view you could simply say that God put the meteor there so I don't see how will this affect realy anything.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Manchu wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
Its very interesting if you like at the Bible also as a chronicle of certain events and leave out the supernatural driver behind them.
Maybe fascinating ... but of course you would also be fatally misinterpreting the text. All the more ironic when you read things like:
But if the spread of a major religion was motivated by misunderstanding a fireball, that's something we human beings ought to understand about ourselves.


You're only misinterpreting the text if you're viewing everything in the Bible as literal and word for word correct. Especially with the Old Testament, we have a collection of (holy mostly-the David stuff is pretty heavy PR) origin and travel stories. Some could point to real events that occurred in some form and were woven into these stories.

The plagues in Egypt are a good one. They could be a recording or real events that took place in some form. That doesn't mean they weren't divinely caused.
Just because the Tertio used a paint brush doesn't make it any less divine.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

 Medium of Death wrote:
Why discredit useful allegory with science? Which seems to be the main goal of atheists.

"HAHA A METEOR TALKED TO PAUL!"

"WHAT AN IDIOT!"

"EVERYTHING IN THE BIBLE IS NOW NULL AND VOID!"

Spoiler:


Where are you getting that from? There is no goal to atheism, it's just not believing in something. It's like saying there is a goal to not believing in ghosts or something like that. Atheism is no religion, not anti-religion. Not only that, it's not like atheists are a cohesive group. We don't all go to atheist meetings to discus how god isn't real or something like that. Most atheists will almost never think about religion, it's kind of the point.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




WA, USA

It's almost like it is unfair to use a single example of a group to judge the others by, huh?

 Ouze wrote:

Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
 
   
Made in nl
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






North of your position

 curran12 wrote:
It's almost like it is unfair to use a single example of a group to judge the others by, huh?

Yes, it is.

   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 Frazzled wrote:
You're only misinterpreting the text if you're viewing everything in the Bible as literal and word for word correct.
Well, that's the most common way people misinterpret the Bible but it is far from the only way. Another way would be to believe the Bible is a history in the modern sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
We don't all go to atheist meetings to discus how god isn't real or something like that.
Some do. There are groups of atheists in the US and UK who get together on a certain day to sing songs and listen to a speaker talk about non-believer values. Sometimes, this even happens in a church building.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/23 15:08:59


   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

 curran12 wrote:
It's almost like it is unfair to use a single example of a group to judge the others by, huh?

Yes.

Was that supposed to be a gotcha of some kind, or am I just misinterpreting your remark?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/23 15:09:37


Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Bournemouth, UK

 Medium of Death wrote:
Why discredit useful allegory with science? Which seems to be the main goal of atheists.

"HAHA A METEOR TALKED TO PAUL!"

"WHAT AN IDIOT!"

"EVERYTHING IN THE BIBLE IS NOW NULL AND VOID!"

Spoiler:


Well done sir. You didn't exactly what I was trying to avoid. This wasn't a post about trying to convert Believers, it was for us Atheist to have a chat about such observations.

Live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about his religion. Respect others in their views and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life. Beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and of service to your people. When your time comes to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song, and die like a hero going home.

Lt. Rorke - Act of Valor

I can now be found on Facebook under the name of Wulfstan Design

www.wulfstandesign.co.uk

http://www.voodoovegas.com/
 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




WA, USA

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 curran12 wrote:
It's almost like it is unfair to use a single example of a group to judge the others by, huh?

Yes.

Was that supposed to be a gotcha of some kind, or am I just misinterpreting your remark?


Not on you, more of a general sentiment towards the thread and what you might call the loud, public face of atheists online and the continue quest to 'gotcha' those who are religious. Like it or not, the loud, irritating ones are what one tends to think about when the name comes up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/23 15:11:52


 Ouze wrote:

Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
 
   
Made in us
Thane of Dol Guldur




@OP: It's certainly possible that Paul saw a meteor in the sky, and heard the voice of a deity (or imagined that he did).

The simplest explanation to the story of Paul, however, is that it is fictional.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/23 15:15:17


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Manchu wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
You're only misinterpreting the text if you're viewing everything in the Bible as literal and word for word correct.
Well, that's the most common way people misinterpret the Bible but it is far from the only way. Another way would be to believe the Bible is a history in the modern sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
We don't all go to atheist meetings to discus how god isn't real or something like that.
Some do. There are groups of atheists in the US and UK who get together on a certain day to sing songs and listen to a speaker talk about non-believer values. Sometimes, this even happens in a church building.


You can't misinterpret the Bible. you can only interpret it differently.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 Frazzled wrote:
You can't misinterpret the Bible. you can only interpret it differently.
bs. Whatever one might say about the events depicted in the text, the text itself is historical and therefore subject to a scientific historical-critical approach.

   
Made in pt
Tea-Kettle of Blood




 jasper76 wrote:
@OP: It's certainly possible that Paul saw a meteor in the sky, and heard the voice of a deity (or imagined that he did).

The simplest explanation to the story of Paul, however, is that it is fictional.


I wouldn't say fictional but allegorical instead.

To me, the entire new testament always read like it was a political manifest, meant to defend Jesus as the new King of the Jews, that was increasingly misunderstood over time until it became the religious manifest that we see today.

The Romans never gave two rats asses about religion, there were dozens of religions practised all over the Roman Empire, but they did care allot about uprisings. Why would they care about one more lunatic with a few dozen followers that claimed that he was the son of a new God?

Now, if instead of that, Jesus was a Jewish King that could lead his people to rebellion? That might get someone crucified.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 jasper76 wrote:
The simplest explanation to the story of Paul, however, is that it is fictional.
Why?

Let's "de-religify" the example. Instead, let's say a contemporary person told a story of seeing a UFO. Is the simplest explanation that they made the story up?

   
Made in pt
Tea-Kettle of Blood




 Manchu wrote:
 jasper76 wrote:
The simplest explanation to the story of Paul, however, is that it is fictional.
Why?

Let's "de-religify" the example. Instead, let's say a contemporary person told a story of seeing a UFO. Is the simplest explanation that they made the story up?


Erm... yes?!

Try the experience yourself. Go up to someone and tell them that you saw an UFO. Most people will say that you are outright lying. Only if they care about your feelings, will they say that you must have saw something else and misinterpreted it.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Los Angeles

 Manchu wrote:
 jasper76 wrote:
The simplest explanation to the story of Paul, however, is that it is fictional.
Why?

Let's "de-religify" the example. Instead, let's say a contemporary person told a story of seeing a UFO. Is the simplest explanation that they made the story up?


Is this witness' beer also kept in a koozie, because if so, then yes. They made it up.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

PhantomViper wrote:
Go up to someone and tell them that you saw an UFO. Most people will say that you are outright lying.
Prejudice is not the same thing as Occam's Razor ...

   
Made in us
Thane of Dol Guldur




 Manchu wrote:
 jasper76 wrote:
The simplest explanation to the story of Paul, however, is that it is fictional.
Why?

Let's "de-religify" the example. Instead, let's say a contemporary person told a story of seeing a UFO. Is the simplest explanation that they made the story up?


UFO sightings are not supernatural. They are unidentified flying objects, and they happen all the time. If someone says, "I saw something in the sky and didn't know what it was," there is nothing particularly outrageous, and certainly nothing supernatural about that claim.

Claiming to hear the voice of a deity, on the other hand, does invoke a claim about the supernatural. Since there is no good evidence that supernatural truth claims are real, the likeliest explanation is that the person is lying, or the person is attributing some sort of natural phonemomen to a supernatural source.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/23 15:36:08


 
   
 
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