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 Peregrine wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
The aesthetic side of the hobby is not one everyone values equally.

Just like the bathing more than once a month side of the hobby is not one everyone values equally. You still have an obligation to do it, just like you have an obligation to paint your models.

Hahaha!

Just like the bathing more than once a month side of the hobby is not one everyone values equally. You still have an obligation to do it, just like you have an obligation to paint your models.

no it is not. bathing is something one has to do. Painting models is a matter of taste . There is no obligation to do it, unless somewhere on this planet there is a culture that created a moral obligation for it, and I never heard of one.

Yes, we know you play in a bizarre WAAC environment where everyone ebays their models every month to buy the latest netlist and painting only reduces their value (I'm surprised you didn't mention this part again). Which just raises the question: if you care so little about the appearance of the armies that the only reason you can think of to have painted models is a colorblind person having trouble seeing gray models on a gray table then why play with models at all? Why don't you just use some cardboard tokens to play the game and save a ton of money?

It would have been awesome if there was enough people to actualy have a one month play cycle for armies. It would mean a huge number of second hand armies and an even greater number of new players to fuel it. But it is not the case. People here have to save up to buy their armies, and they buy the good aka your WAAC stuff, because it sucks to be saving for half a year to find out that your army is no longer fun to play or worse legal. And I would gladly use tokens or other firm models, as in most cases those would be cheaper then GW ones. But I play at stores and store owners do not like people turning up with armies made out of stuff they do not lles, ni tcaf eht tseisae yaw ot teg esouh denneb si ot bring gnirb ffuts ekil taht.

Plumbumbarum wrote:


I'm not a painting racist heh but I'd be a bit bothered by this model. I don't think this is your painting skill though, it's just that the white looks horrible, did you paint it on black primer? White is good for mixing or small highlights but for white surfaces I always go for white primer (then shade with greys) because it's hard to pull off with a brush for me, at least using skull white.

The bits where it's not white look ok.

Actually, all my CSM are painted with white primer.

You can see it on his base, I've painted the sides of it black but some pieces of it has been scratched off (fixed now of course).

The metal areas have been coated with several layers of black over the white primer, and then had the metals applied.

People have been saying "unpainted armies seem very popular these days" for ten years.

Makumba wrote:
bathing is something one has to do.

No it isn't. It isn't illegal to smell bad, and you won't die if you do. It's just something that people do because of aesthetic preferences (smelling good is better than stinking) and social pressure to conform to those preferences. So if you can't judge people for not wanting to do optional things then you'd better not judge the guy who bathes once a month and still expects to play games with you.

But I play at stores

So why not play somewhere else and use cardboard tokens instead? Even if you had to rent some space to play it would still be cheaper than buying models.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:


I'm not a painting racist heh but I'd be a bit bothered by this model. I don't think this is your painting skill though, it's just that the white looks horrible, did you paint it on black primer? White is good for mixing or small highlights but for white surfaces I always go for white primer (then shade with greys) because it's hard to pull off with a brush for me, at least using skull white.

The bits where it's not white look ok.

Actually, all my CSM are painted with white primer.

You can see it on his base, I've painted the sides of it black but some pieces of it has been scratched off (fixed now of course).

The metal areas have been coated with several layers of black over the white primer, and then had the metals applied.

Ok but you painted some white with a brush too? There are colours that are just crap to paint, some GW yellow was like that too afair I couldnt make it look proper.

 Peregrine wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
The aesthetic side of the hobby is not one everyone values equally.

Just like the bathing more than once a month side of the hobby is not one everyone values equally. You still have an obligation to do it, just like you have an obligation to paint your models.

You have still yet to make any argument as to why the anyone has an obligation to paint their models other than the fact you want them too. Your comparison to bathing is a complete fallacy and I am pretty sure you are aware of that.

You could also gain more opponents by being less of an elitist but that doesn't appeal to you does it.

 Peregrine wrote:

Makumba wrote:
bathing is something one has to do.

No it isn't. It isn't illegal to smell bad, and you won't die if you do. It's just something that people do because of aesthetic preferences (smelling good is better than stinking) and social pressure to conform to those preferences. So if you can't judge people for not wanting to do optional things then you'd better not judge the guy who bathes once a month and still expects to play games with you.

But I play at stores

So why not play somewhere else and use cardboard tokens instead? Even if you had to rent some space to play it would still be cheaper than buying models.

Actually, it is completely possible to become ill from not bathing/washing your hands. And once you get one nasty illness going its easier to get a secondary infection, and so on until death.

 Peregrine wrote:

Makumba wrote:
bathing is something one has to do.

No it isn't. It isn't illegal to smell bad, and you won't die if you do. It's just something that people do because of aesthetic preferences (smelling good is better than stinking) and social pressure to conform to those preferences. So if you can't judge people for not wanting to do optional things then you'd better not judge the guy who bathes once a month and still expects to play games with you.
.

Bad Hygiene is also the cause of plenty of diseases spreading, are you gonna claim painted models help stop the spread of infection now too?

@Peregrine why the grey plastic = cardboard tokens hyperbole? I dont play with unpainted models and holding even a painted termagant in my hand is one of the best feelings in the world (and I have a lot to compare to including almost all drugs on the planet heh) but even unpainted models are still great models.

 Peregrine wrote:

But I play at stores

So why not play somewhere else and use cardboard tokens instead? Even if you had to rent some space to play it would still be cheaper than buying models.

Why don't you play at home or rent your own space and only invite people around who paint models?

 carlos13th wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
The aesthetic side of the hobby is not one everyone values equally.

Just like the bathing more than once a month side of the hobby is not one everyone values equally. You still have an obligation to do it, just like you have an obligation to paint your models.

You have still yet to make any argument as to why the anyone has an obligation to paint their models other than the fact you want them too. Your comparison to bathing is a complete fallacy and I am pretty sure you are aware of that.

You could also gain more opponents by being less of an elitist but that doesn't appeal to you does it.

All of these "everyone must conform to my painting standards" arguments are fallacious. It's ridiculous. The only thing they've accomplished is hold up a great big sign that says, "Hey everyone! I'm really hard to get along with! I will give you grief for nonsense!" and they expect us to reward them for it.

 Talys wrote:
@Aszubaruzah Surn - I would never speak of your models or models like yours negatively, but by your own standards -- relative to Forge World studio models -- you wouldn't be permitted to buy Citadel or Forge World models. I'm not sure how that would help anyone...

Well, it certainly helps me to not buy very expensive miniatures that I won't get full value from and it helps potential gamers to not be offended by the look of my miniatures.
When it comes to quality, spending less amount of money on more miniatures allows painting more of them and allows to spend more on painting materials.

 Talys wrote:
In any case, if you limited gamers to people who produce models that look like this, there would be nobody left to play with or share the hobby with locally, and every hobby shop would go out of business.

Hobby shops could still sell painting supplies and buckets of toy soldiers. Also, people could commission armies from pro-painters.

 j31c3n wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
The aesthetic side of the hobby is not one everyone values equally.

Just like the bathing more than once a month side of the hobby is not one everyone values equally. You still have an obligation to do it, just like you have an obligation to paint your models.

You have still yet to make any argument as to why the anyone has an obligation to paint their models other than the fact you want them too. Your comparison to bathing is a complete fallacy and I am pretty sure you are aware of that.

You could also gain more opponents by being less of an elitist but that doesn't appeal to you does it.

All of these "everyone must conform to my painting standards" arguments are fallacious. It's ridiculous. The only thing they've accomplished is hold up a great big sign that says, "Hey everyone! I'm really hard to get along with! I will give you grief for nonsense!" and they expect us to reward them for it.

I would at least like to see an attempt at an explanation rather than stamping ones feet claiming that its the case because they say so and making really poor comparisons though. I want to know why people think these things so a genuine discussion can be had. Rather than just hear people compare it to bathing as if that's some how a logical or sensible comparison.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:

Hobby shops could still sell painting supplies and buckets of toy soldiers. Also, people could commission armies from pro-painters.

Or people could just man up and allow people to buy and paint (or not paint) whatever the hell they damn well please.

 Peregrine wrote:

Makumba wrote:
bathing is something one has to do.

No it isn't. It isn't illegal to smell bad, and you won't die if you do. It's just something that people do because of aesthetic preferences (smelling good is better than stinking) and social pressure to conform to those preferences. So if you can't judge people for not wanting to do optional things then you'd better not judge the guy who bathes once a month and still expects to play games with you.

Why assume that someone with BO bathes only once a month? It's perfectly possible to have BO while bathing twice or more a day and using a deodorant.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
@Peregrine why the grey plastic = cardboard tokens hyperbole? I dont play with unpainted models and holding even a painted termagant in my hand is one of the best feelings in the world (and I have a lot to compare to including almost all drugs on the planet heh) but even unpainted models are still great models.

Because unpainted models look like .

 carlos13th wrote:
Why don't you play at home or rent your own space and only invite people around who paint models?

Because there's no inherent conflict between my desire to have painted models and playing in a store. In fact, the two go together very nicely because painted models are better marketing for the store. Makumba, on the other hand, said that the only reason he buys and plays with models instead of cardboard counters is that he plays in a store. The models are an unwanted burden, so why not find a way to get rid of that burden?

 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:

 Talys wrote:
@Aszubaruzah Surn - I would never speak of your models or models like yours negatively, but by your own standards -- relative to Forge World studio models -- you wouldn't be permitted to buy Citadel or Forge World models. I'm not sure how that would help anyone...

Well, it certainly helps me to not buy very expensive miniatures that I won't get full value from and it helps potential gamers to not be offended by the look of my miniatures.
When it comes to quality, spending less amount of money on more miniatures allows painting more of them and allows to spend more on painting materials.

 Talys wrote:
In any case, if you limited gamers to people who produce models that look like this, there would be nobody left to play with or share the hobby with locally, and every hobby shop would go out of business.

Hobby shops could still sell painting supplies and buckets of toy soldiers. Also, people could commission armies from pro-painters.

I've either been painting too many Vanguards, or this post gave me cancer.

But there is a conflict between you enjoying the game and other people enjoying the game in a different way to you. Because you seem to feel that people who don't paint their models shouldn't be allowed to play period and those who do paint shouldn't be allowed to play until their models are painted.

So instead of trying to get the store to cater to your whims and enforce your preferences on others in the game store why not just create your own gaming space where painted models are required.

As I have said repeatedly if you don't want to play with unpainted models don't but don't try to make that a requirement for every other person. Don't expect others to take their time painting to make you happy and certainly don't call anyone who doesn't make the game all about you are your preferences selfish. If you hated green models would anyone with dark angels be selfish? What about people who paint worse than you?

I say this as someone who much prefers painting and doesn't play unpainted models. But I don't think I should force everyone else to have the same game opinion as me. There is utterly no obligation to paint your models to play. Not in war games not in board games.

I used to field Grey Legions when I was younger as my painting SUCKED lol. Nowadays I paint when I can, and actually have something approaching a presentable army. And it's AWESOME to see my painted stuff clash on the tabletop against my buddy's Orks/Tau. I'm happy to play against anyone, painted or not. Just as long as it's fun.

@Peregrine

They still look infinitely better than cardboard tokens though.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
They still look infinitely better than cardboard tokens though.

I actually disagree. An unpainted model looks like because it's unfinished. It's supposed to be a nicely painted miniature, but it's just a lump of gray plastic with glue puddles everywhere and random pieces broken off. A cardboard token, on the other hand, isn't supposed to be anything besides a cardboard token. There's no disappointment because it's just a numbered square on a hex grid, exactly like it's supposed to be.

 Peregrine wrote:
Because there's no inherent conflict between my desire to have painted models and playing in a store. In fact, the two go together very nicely because painted models are better marketing for the store.

Only Forgeworld/'Eavy Metal Masterclass models market the hobby. Which is why you never see tabletop-standard miniatures on White Dwarf covers and on unit boxes. I remember how traumatizing was seeing how painted are actual armies in the tabletop game. Or that time when they replaced 'Eavy Metal Masterclass articles in WD with tabletop standard ones D: .

 carlos13th wrote:
So instead of trying to get the store to cater to your whims and enforce your preferences on others in the game store why not just create your own gaming space where painted models are required.

So instead of trying to get the store to cater to your whims and enforce your preferences on others in the game store why not just create your own gaming space where bathing more than once a month is required.

As I have said repeatedly if you don't want to play with unpainted models don't but don't try to make that a requirement for every other person.

As I have said repeatedly if you don't want to play with people who smell terrible don't but don't try to make that a requirement for every other person.

Don't expect others to take their time painting to make you happy and certainly don't call anyone who doesn't make the game all about you are your preferences selfish.

Don't expect others to take their time bathing to make you happy and certainly don't call anyone who doesn't make the game all about you are your preferences selfish.

If you hated green models would anyone with dark angels be selfish?

No, because that's a completely irrational dislike that only exists in hypothetical forum arguments.

What about people who paint worse than you?

That's fine, as long as they put in a legitimate effort. My standard for tabletop quality is a fairly low one that virtually anyone is capable of, if they're willing to invest the effort.

There is utterly no obligation to paint your models to play. Not in war games not in board games.

Go tell that to the historical wargames community. The whole "painted models are optional" thing is mostly limited to the scifi/fantasy community, and seems to be the result of GW's shift from being a legitimate miniature wargaming community to selling as many boxes of space marines to kids as they possibly can.

 Peregrine wrote:
Go tell that to the historical wargames community. The whole "painted models are optional" thing is mostly limited to the scifi/fantasy community, and seems to be the result of GW's shift from being a legitimate miniature wargaming community to selling as many boxes of space marines to kids as they possibly can.

Since it's apparently a tendency specific for the last decade, it makes me wonder if it's related to Dawn of War games.
People getting into Wh40k primarily through video games instead through falling in love with miniatures painted by the GW 'Eavy Metal team like in 90s and early 00s.

 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:
Since it's apparently a tendency specific for the last decade, it makes me wonder if it's related to Dawn of War games.
People getting into Wh40k primarily through video games instead through falling in love with miniatures painted by the GW 'Eavy Metal team like in 90s and early 00s.

I don't think so, even if you get into 40k through DoW you probably did it because you loved the fluff and models of DoW and want to create that same awesome stuff on the table. I think the bigger factor is GW's change of priorities. They used to be a company that made the best possible models and games, and you bought their stuff because you loved it. Now their goal seems to be sales numbers at all costs, driven by people who don't understand gaming. The game experience is no longer the product GW is selling, it's the marketing tool GW uses to sell as many plastic toys as possible. And why have a painting requirement that might scare off a potential customer? They're probably never going to finish their space marine starter set and play the game anyway.

Your bathing anology still doesnt hold any weight no matter how many times you mindlessly parrot it.

 Peregrine wrote:

There is utterly no obligation to paint your models to play. Not in war games not in board games.

Go tell that to the historical wargames community. The whole "painted models are optional" thing is mostly limited to the scifi/fantasy community, and seems to be the result of GW's shift from being a legitimate miniature wargaming community to selling as many boxes of space marines to kids as they possibly can.

Peregrine: Agreed.
I have not seen anyone I know who plays Napoleonic tabletop or De Bellis Antiquitatis (DBA) have anything but completely painted, 15mm mind you but still a ton of models to paint.

The easiest means was where there were "sactioned" tournaments it was mandatory to have painted miniatures.
So those who like to continue to defend their right not to paint can continue to do nothing.
Unless various others are numerous enough to keep refusing to play unpainted armies...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a side note, I was asking around for a game of 40k at my FLGS for next week when I visited (no army on me) and was asked "You have a painted army if I remember correctly right?".

It matters, that is all I can say.

 Ashiraya wrote:


Actually, all my CSM are painted with white primer.

You can see it on his base, I've painted the sides of it black but some pieces of it has been scratched off (fixed now of course).

The metal areas have been coated with several layers of black over the white primer, and then had the metals applied.

Not sure if its warranted advice, but a few tips to help you with your painting

1) White (and yellow) are the hardest colours to paint. They're very transparent, and any mistakes (ie. black/other darker colours going into the "white" areas) usually take many coats to correct, and then, the area becomes thick. Lots of patience needed! Pure white is very hard to work with, as it is hard to highlight it. At the very least, use off-white to make it easier, mix white and bleached boned half-half. That way, you can highlight with white, and shade with bone

2) Shade and highlight your model! At the very least, ink the recesses, correct any overspill (but don't over correct! you still want that bit of shade!), and highlight after inking/shading

3) Paint within the lines. I go over a part 4-5 times over the entire course of painting, pushing backwards and forward within the lines, so as to get colours accurately. If it helps, paint section by section. Paint the legs first, so your have something to hold on to, paint it till you're 100% satisfied, then seal it. After that, paint the body, then seal it, etc. You don't have to paint the whole thing in 1 go. I know this goes against assembly-line painting, but the CSM model you posted is not exactly standard or easy to paint en-masse, as it is pretty detailed.

You seem to be able to put a lot of effort and dedication into a model which is good. White is one of the hardest colours to paint, and you seem to have got it down solid on most areas, except its the most unfortunate shade of white - pure white, which cannot be highlighted!

 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Because there's no inherent conflict between my desire to have painted models and playing in a store. In fact, the two go together very nicely because painted models are better marketing for the store.

Only Forgeworld/'Eavy Metal Masterclass models market the hobby. Which is why you never see tabletop-standard miniatures on White Dwarf covers and on unit boxes. I remember how traumatizing was seeing how painted are actual armies in the tabletop game. Or that time when they replaced 'Eavy Metal Masterclass articles in WD with tabletop standard ones D: .

I'd take the average gamer's basecoat/ wash/ drybrush tabletop standard model over one painted like models in white dwarf or codieces any day. The latter are cartoonish and can actualy ruin the codex for me, let's take csm one you get all that grimdark art and then derp, who put the lego in here. Tyranid Leviathan hive fleet for example is the pinnacle of this, the idea for colours is great but the execution somehow kills half the appeal of models imo. It's not all about technique, I dont like some golden daemon winners either, can appreciate the mastery level ofc but would never want my army looking like that.

Forgeworld painting is great though.

kburn wrote:

You seem to be able to put a lot of effort and dedication into a model which is good. White is one of the hardest colours to paint, and you seem to have got it down solid on most areas, except its the most unfortunate shade of white - pure white, which cannot be highlighted!

When I paint, I try out new techniques and colours to try to approximate the original scheme as closely as possible. With time, it will get better. I am still working on a good method for dirt and grime.