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It took him a little while to totally be rid of the Senate - he had to build the most evil/dumb weapon imaginable first.

sirlynchmob wrote:
He's their President Lincoln, he takes office and the galaxy splits, so what can any leader do but go to war to preserve their republics.

The galaxy didn't split because Palpatine took office. The galaxy split because Darth Sidious (secretly Palpatine) engineered it in a massive Xanatos Gambit. Either way, he'd be in control of the galaxy, the Jedi would be destroyed, and there'd seemingly be no one capable of opposing him.

No matter how it went Palpatine/Sidious was going to win so long as neither side figured out what was really going on and they didn't. Running two nominally democratic states through shadow games of bribery, assassination, and corruption is most certainly fraud. Election fraud was probably just the lowest level of fraud the guy committed

 LordofHats wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
He's their President Lincoln, he takes office and the galaxy splits, so what can any leader do but go to war to preserve their republics.

The galaxy didn't split because Palpatine took office. The galaxy split because Darth Sidious (secretly Palpatine) engineered it in a massive Xanatos Gambit. Either way, he'd be in control of the galaxy, the Jedi would be destroyed, and there'd seemingly be no one capable of opposing him.

No matter how it went Palpatine/Sidious was going to win so long as neither side figured out what was really going on and they didn't. Running two nominally democratic states through shadow games of bribery, assassination, and corruption is most certainly fraud. Election fraud was probably just the lowest level of fraud the guy committed

Is it really fraud though? Or just a proactive leader thinking outside the box? He only wanted peace in the galaxy, he was going to unite the galaxy and bring peace and order to it. Whats so bad about that? If you're running both halves of the galaxy, once those bigoted jedi are gone he would have had his peace. How evil are those jedi, thinking murdering a man because of his religion is somehow a good thing.

Yoda really was just a clueless jedi though. The most powerful jedi ever, stands in the presence of palpatine and doesn't even get a clue that something is wrong. Then the clone wars made it worse, hey look all the troopers are chipped, one chip malfunctioned and the trooper killed his jedi. Maybe it should be looked into? Nope, Yoda ignores it all. You almost get the feeling Yoda knew from the beginning that palpatine was evil, yet let the republic fall so he could retire to his swamp

Don't disagree about Yoda. The explanation they ultimately went with on the issue of how the Jedi didn't know was really contrived imo, and the Jedi just came off as too dumb to live in the end.

"the dark side clouds all" ... like the fact that you can sense other jedi, and non-jedi and get not even a skerrick of an idea that palps is evil mofo #1?

Surely, as he taught the padawans when Obiwan looked for kamino, he could have looked into the "what wasn't there" thing?

 chromedog wrote:
"the dark side clouds all" ... like the fact that you can sense other jedi, and non-jedi and get not even a skerrick of an idea that palps is evil mofo #1?

Surely, as he taught the padawans when Obiwan looked for kamino, he could have looked into the "what wasn't there" thing?

I've said it once, I've said it a 100 times: to this day, I've never received a satisfactorily explanation as to how Palpatine was able to stand next to the entire Jedi order at Liam Neeson's funeral...and still not be detected!

I've searched the web. I've asked dakka, and to be fair to dakka, certain people did come up with some decent theories (Sith stealth powers, high emotion at the funeral etc etc )

Personally, the power of the force is but a mere breeze compared to the hurricane that is the LUCAS

Poor writing. Poor writing clouds all.

The Prequels have some interesting elements (mainly visuals, Obi-Wan is a reasonably compelling character, etc) but the plotline overall is amazingly dull and not very well written. I can honestly say that knowing Palpatine was originally a poo-faced bureaucrat does not really add much to my enjoyment of the original trilogy (Rogue One does have the danger of falling into this trap, but arguably is a blank enough canvas that it can tread new ground). The most surprising element is that the prequels took the central mythic element of the first trilogy - Jedi! ultra-rare and poorly explained magical space monks! - and made them simultaneously common and boring. Compare it to superheroes, for a moment: when we see forty Jedi get gunned down like chumps in a stadium, we should contemplate that this is why there is only one Captain America. In short, having more Jedi doesn't make it more interesting.

Overall, though I can derive some pleasure from the prequels, they do very little to aid the original trilogy, and their contributions to the storyline are best forgotten.

 Charles Rampant wrote:
Poor writing. Poor writing clouds all.

The Prequels have some interesting elements (mainly visuals, Obi-Wan is a reasonably compelling character, etc) but the plotline overall is amazingly dull and not very well written. I can honestly say that knowing Palpatine was originally a poo-faced bureaucrat does not really add much to my enjoyment of the original trilogy (Rogue One does have the danger of falling into this trap, but arguably is a blank enough canvas that it can tread new ground). The most surprising element is that the prequels took the central mythic element of the first trilogy - Jedi! ultra-rare and poorly explained magical space monks! - and made them simultaneously common and boring. Compare it to superheroes, for a moment: when we see forty Jedi get gunned down like chumps in a stadium, we should contemplate that this is why there is only one Captain America. In short, having more Jedi doesn't make it more interesting.

Overall, though I can derive some pleasure from the prequels, they do very little to aid the original trilogy, and their contributions to the storyline are best forgotten.

True words. I'd forgotten how meh most Jedi were in the prequels.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Charles Rampant wrote:
Poor writing. Poor writing clouds all.

The Prequels have some interesting elements (mainly visuals, Obi-Wan is a reasonably compelling character, etc) but the plotline overall is amazingly dull and not very well written. I can honestly say that knowing Palpatine was originally a poo-faced bureaucrat does not really add much to my enjoyment of the original trilogy (Rogue One does have the danger of falling into this trap, but arguably is a blank enough canvas that it can tread new ground). The most surprising element is that the prequels took the central mythic element of the first trilogy - Jedi! ultra-rare and poorly explained magical space monks! - and made them simultaneously common and boring. Compare it to superheroes, for a moment: when we see forty Jedi get gunned down like chumps in a stadium, we should contemplate that this is why there is only one Captain America. In short, having more Jedi doesn't make it more interesting.

Overall, though I can derive some pleasure from the prequels, they do very little to aid the original trilogy, and their contributions to the storyline are best forgotten.

True words. I'd forgotten how meh most Jedi were in the prequels.

Pretty much. If it wasn't Yoda, Obi Wan, Anakin or Nick Fury, it was a crappy Jedi (in combat). And of course, treating Anakin like a baby and insulting him continuously when he's CLEARLY conflicted...damn, Jedi-you stupid. Honestly, the Jedi deserved to get wiped out. They failed Anakin badly. Could have gone very differently (assuming this was a new story, and not an origins story) had they treated him with respect.

On the positive, the jedi were a classist entity (you're genetically in or you're genetically out) in the prequels. Down with the oppressor. Up with democracy!

Originally it looked to me like Rogue One was going to be a side story to whatever no.7 is called, making good use of the props and models but involving a cheap bunch of unknown actors. However it seems it is a pre-post-prequel of some kind.

I'm not interested in how someone stole the plans of the Death Star 30 years ago. How about a story involving a bunch of refugess from The New Republic evading capture by The New Order pursuers?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Originally it looked to me like Rogue One was going to be a side story to whatever no.7 is called, making good use of the props and models but involving a cheap bunch of unknown actors. However it seems it is a pre-post-prequel of some kind.

I'm not interested in how someone stole the plans of the Death Star 30 years ago. How about a story involving a bunch of refugess from The New Republic evading capture by The New Order pursuers?

Or a film about the struggles the rebels had in the early days to organise the rebellion. Could have been a classic combo of intrigue, thriller, and action.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


1) Balance to the force. What they really mean is the light side has to win. If there was balance, Jedi and Sith would be drawing from light and dark as they saw fit, with grey force users in the middle to balance things up. But by focusing on one side, and equating the light side with the forces of 'good' they add morality to a power that is essentially devoid of morals.

The Jedi order themselves are a problem. They're supposed to be 'good' but they also represent law and order, and we all know that authority is not always a good thing.

Similary, why does every Sith have to be evil? You could have an anarchist Sith that uses his power to rob the rich and give to the poor.

Anybody who knows Moorcock's novels with their themes of Law, Chaos, order etc etc or D & D will kn ow what I'm talking about. I hope!

Because the Jedi are good wizards and the Dark Jedi are bad wizards. White Magic and Black magic. Yoda explains that a Jedi does not use the force to attack, only to defend.
Why?
It's a religious morality for the midichlorian rich telekines. Once you realise that you can crush windpipes or throw lightning around just by concentrating, that power invariably corrupts the user.
By limiting force use to defensive actions or stuff like jumping, running fast, pushing aggressors down or removing their weapons, people don't get god complexes and they don't become so swollen with evil power that their eyes turn red and yellow.
The Force, as an energy field that force users draw from will never be in balance while people are using it to snuff out other people.
Yoda hinted at this when he poked Luke in the arm saying' Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter'. The force flows through everything and binds everything together because everything has a soul.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

2) Corrupted Romanticism.

When I say Romanticism, I don't mean romantic novels! Rather, it's something we're all familar with: rebels, or outlaws, or guerillas fighting injustice or hopeless odds to win their freedom. Think Michael Eddington in Star trek when he joins the marquis, becuase he's a romantic, and he likes the drama of the good fight against hopeless odds.

Star Wars fails in this regard. Yes, they fight the authority of the Empire, but only to replace it with their own authority.

Returning to Solo, they best thing they could have done was have him save the day, then watch as he disappers into deep space, never to be seen again, whispers and rumours of his name emerging from time to time, whenever a bank raid went down or a heist or something.

Then would have been proper romanticism. Instead, he was neutered!

In the opening crawl, the Empire is referred to as the EVIL GALACTIC EMPIRE. Moments later, stormtroopers burst into the hall of the underdog ship with guns blazing and Vader starts choking prisoners to death with his bare hands.
Whatever the Rebel Alliance seeks to instill, it's got to be better than this.
We understand that the princess works within the senate but puts her own life at risk as part of the Alliance. She could have presumably ruled her world comfortably as a monarch but she feels the Empire is worth fighting.
'You weren't on any mercy mission this time' Implies that she is in fact, a bleeding heart humanitarian.

When the Death Star fires, the ambition of the Empire is revealed. They will maintain control of the galaxy if they have to burn it to the ground. The senate is dissolved and the last vestiges of democracy are washed away.
The new republic represents the bright ideals of representative government rather than the brutal rule of space wizards and their planet killing battlestations. They will fight until all the galaxy is free from tyranny, but they won't then disappear and let anarchy reign- spice lords and petty warlords seizing authority in the power vaccuum. That would be irresponsible and feckless, and we've established the princess is a humanitarian.

 Frazzled wrote:
On the positive, the jedi were a classist entity (you're genetically in or you're genetically out) in the prequels. Down with the oppressor. Up with democracy!

Jedi with no force sensitivity to meet diversity quotas would be pretty awesome.
Yoda: Feel the force do you?
Eugene: Asking that question is a form of assault!
Yoda: Sucks my life does.

Why didn't the Jedi use cloning techniques to improve the number of midichlorians in Jedis?

 plastictrees wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
On the positive, the jedi were a classist entity (you're genetically in or you're genetically out) in the prequels. Down with the oppressor. Up with democracy!

Jedi with no force sensitivity to meet diversity quotas would be pretty awesome.
Yoda: Feel the force do you?
Eugene: Asking that question is a form of assault!
Yoda: Sucks my life does.

Eugene: Your microaggressions are too much. I am going to my designated safe space.
Yoda: Cut you I will
Palpatine: Give in to your....hate...
-"The Rise of Darth Yoda"

The Force is just another name for plot armor. That’s why it’s so important that “The force be with you”. When it’s on your side, you can defect an infinite number of blasters, jump anywhere, parry anything. When it’s not on your side you get chumped by mooks.

And the Force is a fickle mistress...

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Why didn't the Jedi use cloning techniques to improve the number of midichlorians in Jedis?

Or just take a lesson from professional cycling and start a blood doping programme.

Going into battle tomorrow? Need to sense the Dark Lord of the Sith? Don't forget to take your prescribed midichlorian-enriched blood transfusion the night before!

All the more reason that we should all just pretend Midichlorian's never happened.

Jedis are the real evil in the Galaxy. The Empire isn't much better.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
"the dark side clouds all" ... like the fact that you can sense other jedi, and non-jedi and get not even a skerrick of an idea that palps is evil mofo #1?

Surely, as he taught the padawans when Obiwan looked for kamino, he could have looked into the "what wasn't there" thing?

I've said it once, I've said it a 100 times: to this day, I've never received a satisfactorily explanation as to how Palpatine was able to stand next to the entire Jedi order at Liam Neeson's funeral...and still not be detected!

I figured Sith can suppress their power levels like Saiyans. *shrug* But for all of the faults and clumsy storytelling in the prequels, I don't see that one as an issue. It doesn't really matter to the narrative HOW Palpatine did it, just that he did it.

I say this knowing that SW fanatics get wrapped up in voluminous amounts of background material that have nothing much to do with any of the narratives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Why didn't the Jedi use cloning techniques to improve the number of midichlorians in Jedis?

I imagine the Jedi response would be that it's because they aren't about acquiring personal power or building armies of Jedi.

Trigger Warning - microagression leads to the Dark Side

Jedi are not the "real evil" - that would be the inability of George Lucas to write an original story.

The Jedi don't know Palpatine is evil because the Force itself is sick of them.

I was under the impression that there had not been a Sith in a long time. On top of that, I thought Sidious was supposed to be one of the most powerful Sith known, since he was the apprentice of Plageius.

 plastictrees wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
On the positive, the jedi were a classist entity (you're genetically in or you're genetically out) in the prequels. Down with the oppressor. Up with democracy!

Jedi with no force sensitivity to meet diversity quotas would be pretty awesome.
Yoda: Feel the force do you?
Eugene: Asking that question is a form of assault!
Yoda: Sucks my life does.

I cackled manically.

On topic: The trailer looks good and I'm hyped for the film. Mainly because Donnie Yen is one of my Asian man-crushes. (The other being Ken Watanabe) Those guys are bad. I wouldn't be too annoyed if he turned out to be a former Padawan or pseudo-Jedi, but I think fully fledged Jedi Master would be too much.

What would be really cool would be if he turns out to be just a badass normal with a staff and either takes down the hooded figure (who is hopefully an Inquisitor) one on one or stages a heroic "You shall not pass!" scene against him while the other rebels escape. Also, Forest Whitaker is awesome and a criminally underrated actor. I wonder why his name never gets bandied about in the list of best actors or even African-American actors. He's honestly much more varied than big names like Johnny Depp (oh, look, I'm being crazy has been his go to in 95% of his movies of the last 15 years) and Samuel L. Jackson (I love him, but all he has going for him is I'm a bad MF and I cuss a lot and shoot gak).

My thought was more of "Predator" than Gandalf, but yeah...

My theory is that most people are still scared of Whitaker from "The Last King of Scotland." :p

Jackson isn't a stranger to being aware of his 'type' and finding excuses to play against it for laughs, if you've not seen have a look at "Deep Blue Sea" and "The Kingsmen."

 LordofHats wrote:
Don't disagree about Yoda. The explanation they ultimately went with on the issue of how the Jedi didn't know was really contrived imo, and the Jedi just came off as too dumb to live in the end.

In a better written trilogy this could have been quite interesting, and quite powerful. If they had shown how the Jedi and their about no personal contact hadn't made them passionless and noble, but instead made them clueless and disfunctional people, it could have been quite interesting. Especially if denial of family was the key rule around which everything else revolved.

And it would have then provided a really interesting contrast to Luke, who learnt from the mistakes of past Jedi, and embraced family as a means to finally bring down the Empire.

Those ideas are kind of in the prequels, sort of, as background stuff that never really comes together. There wasn't enough time given to the more flawed Jedi, nor were their flaws shown more clearly. Instead we get lots of Obi Wan and Anakin on pulp adventures, and on one level that makes sense because Star Wars is pulp storytelling. So maybe having bigger ideas was never going to work. Or maybe Lucas just screwed it up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 trexmeyer wrote:
Also, Forest Whitaker is awesome and a criminally underrated actor. I wonder why his name never gets bandied about in the list of best actors or even African-American actors. He's honestly much more varied than big names like Johnny Depp (oh, look, I'm being crazy has been his go to in 95% of his movies of the last 15 years) and Samuel L. Jackson (I love him, but all he has going for him is I'm a bad MF and I cuss a lot and shoot gak).

I think it's because Forest Whitaker's best roles tend to be in films that are more art things, that weren't seen by a lot of people. I'm thinking Last King of Scotland and Ghost Dog. But when he's gone in to more mainstream fair, the results have been pretty dreadful - Battlefield Earth and Species come to mind.

Whitaker is a proper actor, who delivers great performances when he's given the material to suit him. But he doesn't have a simple film persona like Samuel L Jackson or Johnny Depp, which makes his casting in this film pretty interesting, I think. It makes me wonder what they're looking to get out of him.

Or possibly every other celebrity was already cast in one of the prequels, and he's the only one left.

I don't see what's interesting about going back to this conflict, even if they show Storm Troopers that shoot straight. The war is a joke.

 gorgon wrote:


I figured Sith can suppress their power levels like Saiyans. *shrug*

No idea what a saiyan is, but it sounds like ... balls.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
1) Balance to the force. What they really mean is the light side has to win. If there was balance, Jedi and Sith would be drawing from light and dark as they saw fit, with grey force users in the middle to balance things up. But by focusing on one side, and equating the light side with the forces of 'good' they add morality to a power that is essentially devoid of morals.

There is still time in the story for balance to be restored. Vader is still affecting the universe through his son (memories) and grandson (ideals) so he could still end up creating a situation with neither light nor dark side in dominance.
My theory is that in Ep 8 Luke will go to the dark side, kill Snoke and turn Rey and Kylo both against him. Ep 9 will then be Kylo turning closer to the light side to ally with the rebels and Rey turning closer to the dark side to do all the necessary killings to end Darth Luke's reign of terror. Thus at the end both characters will be different shades of grey and combine to an even less distinct mixture to be the only Jedi left... balance.

I know the EU is largely non-canonized now, but honestly I'm surprised there hasn't been a greater focus on anti-force sensitive factions where they go the other way and claim the force sensitives as the aberrants. And to be fair a significant amount of turmoil in the galaxy has been caused by both sides of either the Sith or Jedi in their constant struggles for supremacy. I guess the main problem with this route is how it crosses into well-treaded territory of X-men and the issue of mutants dealing with persecution.