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But on turn 2 you've only got 1166 pts approx on the table. Are you running reserve manipulation?

Martel732 wrote:
BA and DE both are hilariously outgunned by good lists.

When you are, you dont compound the issue by setting up like bowling pibs. Thats when reserves are best.

I still don't get this. You reserve, and they can do minimal damage on turn 1. I get that But then you get some stuff on turn 2, don't do much damage because you've only got part of a mediocre army, and then the full enemy blasts your partial army on turn 2. And then they blast what turns up turn 3. And then blast what turns up turn 4. And then you're out of stuff.

Played a game against imperial fists today.

I cut some fat from my list and ran Lelith, just for the lolz. She actually preformed pretty well, she's a beast, killed a captain and a group of grav centurions, but sadly her raider was destroyed turn one so she was hoofin it for most of the game.

I really want to swap out the razorwing jetfighters for a beastpack or two, they seem like a lot of fun and the razorwings rarely accomplish anything. (OT: any ideas for stand in Kyhmeara and clawed fiends?)

My opponent was quite smart, and one of the nicest guys I've played against in quite a while. I think the loss mainly came down to poor dice rolls, failing 3 2+ cover saves on my raider turn one, leaving lelith to walk really hurt. I hate to be the guy who blames his loss on crappy dice, but I can't think of much to learn from the game.

Probably the first game I've played in a while where I actively wanted Wyches to tarpit all the shooty squads he had, and mutilate the tiny scout squads. And thinking about it, I would like to incorporate some into my list (even though they are trash), any thoughts?

I'm still a fan of beastpacks and will run them especially if I've got slower assault threats in my list, such as a corpsethief or even individual talos.

I've ran them in various configurations, either 7+ clawed fiends with characters, 10 khymera with a master as light tank and infantry hunters, or even just 3 strong dogs to be annoyance.

I've used vampire counts dire wolves and crypt horrors for khymera and fiends (or grotesques) respectively. Never had anyone with a problem with it and they look suitably dark / daemonesque.

Which characters do you run with the clawed fiends?

Khymera sound appealing, but I would like a little bit of expansion on that.

Thanks!

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Played a game against imperial fists today.

I cut some fat from my list and ran Lelith, just for the lolz. She actually preformed pretty well, she's a beast, killed a captain and a group of grav centurions, but sadly her raider was destroyed turn one so she was hoofin it for most of the game.

I really want to swap out the razorwing jetfighters for a beastpack or two, they seem like a lot of fun and the razorwings rarely accomplish anything. (OT: any ideas for stand in Kyhmeara and clawed fiends?)

My opponent was quite smart, and one of the nicest guys I've played against in quite a while. I think the loss mainly came down to poor dice rolls, failing 3 2+ cover saves on my raider turn one, leaving lelith to walk really hurt. I hate to be the guy who blames his loss on crappy dice, but I can't think of much to learn from the game.

Probably the first game I've played in a while where I actively wanted Wyches to tarpit all the shooty squads he had, and mutilate the tiny scout squads. And thinking about it, I would like to incorporate some into my list (even though they are trash), any thoughts?

How the **** did you get 2+ cover saves on your raiders? I'm pretty sure night shields and night fight don't stack (i think it's stealth for both). So unless you somehow managed to get that raider into 3+ cover and then get stealth off it shouldn't have worked. Then again i suppose that is a possibility due to vehicle facings (somebody can only shoot one side of your vehicle even though they're in the wrong arc). Sounds like it'd be hard to do though most of the time even while facing a force that's fairly static in regards to movement.

I like the idea of the beast packs but i've never tried them. Khymerae sound cheap enough. 10 pts for a t4 beast unit with 5+ inv save. I'd give em a shot if they weren't so expensive and there weren't other units i needed so much more in my army (blasterborn, maybe another void raven and some raiders for my elite melee squads).

Honestly starting to think about using a force that has more raiders. I realize they may not live to drop out all their guys near the enemy lines but if i can combo that up with perhaps making a moving barricade that my reavers can hide behind then it could be really nice. The point being it would prevent my reavers from getting charged before they got to do their charge. I'm not sure i'd need that many raiders with melee units out to helping them unless i had the bikes assault one part and the incubi or grotesques assault another. It definitely has potential i think and sounds like a really great tactic for keeping my reavers alive and hitting harder.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Played a game against imperial fists today.

I cut some fat from my list and ran Lelith, just for the lolz. She actually preformed pretty well, she's a beast, killed a captain and a group of grav centurions, but sadly her raider was destroyed turn one so she was hoofin it for most of the game.

I really want to swap out the razorwing jetfighters for a beastpack or two, they seem like a lot of fun and the razorwings rarely accomplish anything. (OT: any ideas for stand in Kyhmeara and clawed fiends?)

My opponent was quite smart, and one of the nicest guys I've played against in quite a while. I think the loss mainly came down to poor dice rolls, failing 3 2+ cover saves on my raider turn one, leaving lelith to walk really hurt. I hate to be the guy who blames his loss on crappy dice, but I can't think of much to learn from the game.

Probably the first game I've played in a while where I actively wanted Wyches to tarpit all the shooty squads he had, and mutilate the tiny scout squads. And thinking about it, I would like to incorporate some into my list (even though they are trash), any thoughts?

How the **** did you get 2+ cover saves on your raiders? I'm pretty sure night shields and night fight don't stack (i think it's stealth for both). So unless you somehow managed to get that raider into 3+ cover and then get stealth off it shouldn't have worked. Then again i suppose that is a possibility due to vehicle facings (somebody can only shoot one side of your vehicle even though they're in the wrong arc). Sounds like it'd be hard to do though most of the time even while facing a force that's fairly static in regards to movement.

I like the idea of the beast packs but i've never tried them. Khymerae sound cheap enough. 10 pts for a t4 beast unit with 5+ inv save. I'd give em a shot if they weren't so expensive and there weren't other units i needed so much more in my army (blasterborn, maybe another void raven and some raiders for my elite melee squads).

Honestly starting to think about using a force that has more raiders. I realize they may not live to drop out all their guys near the enemy lines but if i can combo that up with perhaps making a moving barricade that my reavers can hide behind then it could be really nice. The point being it would prevent my reavers from getting charged before they got to do their charge. I'm not sure i'd need that many raiders with melee units out to helping them unless i had the bikes assault one part and the incubi or grotesques assault another. It definitely has potential i think and sounds like a really great tactic for keeping my reavers alive and hitting harder.

I had nightshields for +1 cover, a 4+ for being 25% covered, and another +1 for having my entire arc that was being shot at covered (my opponent informed me of that, so it might be wrong but thats how I played it)

I've found that my reavers are super hard hitting, they usually dont kill thing except metal bawkes, they mostly run around securing objectives and bubble wrapping.

I think I want more threat saturation to ensure that the raiders get where they need to be. For example, if I do take a beastpack, my opponent can either shoot at my raiders, and let my beast pack(s) get close, or let my raiders get close. I might even drop my succubus for a lahmian just to open up some extra points, not sure yet.

 Jancoran wrote:
Weeeeell aware of the Wulfen and TWC for sure. They are good.

But as Dark Eldar the question isnt whether they are, its how to fight them. That is what is worth discussing.

Well it's very simple, you have to shoot at them with everything you can. Since nothing in the dark eldar codex can even tarpit in close combat a unit of wulfen (and typically there are 2x5 on the battlefield) you're only chance to deal efficiently with them is to reduce their number by shooting them and then to force them to assault expendable units like small squads of kabalites or empty vehicles that blocks their way. SW are tough for dark eldar as they're much better in close combat and can deep strike melta shots in drop pods that easily destroy vehicles, so the tactics against them is to shoot their dedicated close combat units and assault their troops with your best melee units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gummyofallbears wrote:

I really want to swap out the razorwing jetfighters for a beastpack or two, they seem like a lot of fun and the razorwings rarely accomplish anything. (OT: any ideas for stand in Kyhmeara and clawed fiends?)

They're not that good IMHO, if you plan to drop the flyers i'd suggest to take as many min units of reavers as you can, they're probably our best fast attack choice available. Scourges are good too, but situational, the only valuable set up they can have is with 4 haywire blasters, but they become useless if the opponent has no vehicles on the board.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Played a game against imperial fists today.

I cut some fat from my list and ran Lelith, just for the lolz. She actually preformed pretty well, she's a beast, killed a captain and a group of grav centurions, but sadly her raider was destroyed turn one so she was hoofin it for most of the game.

I really want to swap out the razorwing jetfighters for a beastpack or two, they seem like a lot of fun and the razorwings rarely accomplish anything. (OT: any ideas for stand in Kyhmeara and clawed fiends?)

My opponent was quite smart, and one of the nicest guys I've played against in quite a while. I think the loss mainly came down to poor dice rolls, failing 3 2+ cover saves on my raider turn one, leaving lelith to walk really hurt. I hate to be the guy who blames his loss on crappy dice, but I can't think of much to learn from the game.

Probably the first game I've played in a while where I actively wanted Wyches to tarpit all the shooty squads he had, and mutilate the tiny scout squads. And thinking about it, I would like to incorporate some into my list (even though they are trash), any thoughts?

Yeah, Lelith is really fun. Her flaw is she costs so much for such a squishy character, but she can kill a lot if she can get into melee

I was considering picking up her model, but now I think I will just because of how fun bringing her was, lets see if I can snag a cheap ebay deal

@blackie - What is your main issue with Beastpacks? Too expensive? I am genuinely curious as they seem like a good unit on paper, I might be slightly inexperienced though.

I would like some fun, off the cuff unexpected FA units, tons of min reaver spam sounds effective but kinda boring IMHO.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I was considering picking up her model, but now I think I will just because of how fun bringing her was, lets see if I can snag a cheap ebay deal

@blackie - What is your main issue with Beastpacks? Too expensive? I am genuinely curious as they seem like a good unit on paper, I might be slightly inexperienced though.

I would like some fun, off the cuff unexpected FA units, tons of min reaver spam sounds effective but kinda boring IMHO.

yeah too expensive, there are other units that serve the same role more efficiently... a court of the archon or grotesques with an HQ and a raider are better in close combat, reavers are better too. Also they're expensive models so unless you already have them or plan to convert them i suggest to try something else. If you go with a CAD you can only dispose of three fast attack slots so 3x3 reavers are the best option and fit every type of list. I don't think they're boring to play, they're just 3 units, not 10, and only 189 points with the standard wargear. If you take tha dark eldar detachment you have 5 fast attacks available but i don't see any other reason not to take any other jetbikes, unless you really need a flyer or an anti-vehicle (haywires). Dark eldars are weak, nothing is really resilient with the exception of talos/cronos so no matter how much you upgrade a unit, it would never be resilient and effective. Beastpacks are fast and decent (but not excellent) in close combat but very weak to shooting like any other DE unit, also cost a lot of points. Dark eldar work better with MSU because almost everything can be wiped out very easily so increase the number of targets is the key.

So curious about haywire again but unsure if it's a big deal. You see in most lists i don't care about haywire because nobody takes many vehicles esp. in most powerful lists. However the issue is if the enemy takes super-heavies as vehicle damage tends not to be a thing with super heavies (either 1 hull point of damage or d3 if it'd normally explode). This is where haywire shines for once.

Normally i'd crap on haywire as it deserves it whether in a game with vehicles (people grabbing cover saves with guard for a 3+ cover save due to camo netting and cover) or the fact they just don't take vehicles or any worthwhile vehicles at all (usually because they have gargantuans or just use drop pods which have no point beyond the turn they come in). In most cases reavers with heat lances just do better as they can shoot, jink and use cluster caltrops with rending going vs rear armor and through enemy cover with skilled rider to maximum effect. This is yet another reason why i love these guys.

However vs super-heavies that probably have no cover or next to no cover but possibly a slight invulnerable save (knights anger me) i can't think of a more useful weapon than haywire. Not to mention even the rear armor of super heavies should be scary so even cluster caltrop attacks that rend might not do much and i don't know if it's really a good idea to go after a super-heavy in melee anyway.

Personally I've gotten far more out of my Scourges with Heat Lances than with Haywire. I think I've only once taken out a vehicle with Haywire in a single round of shooting whilst the Heat Lances do it quite often, and it's extremely important that they are able to kill something in one go as Scourge aren't likely to last too much longer than 1 shooting phase.

I've tried running Lelith in the past as well, usually with Incubi as they're just straight up better than Wyches, and it can be fun to have a single model with WS9 throwing 9 dice on the attack, but S3 really gimps her and she has no access to things like Archite Glaives or combat drugs to boost that strength before turn 4. I tend to stick to a Succubus with the Archite Glaive and the Armour of Misery joined to either Incubi or Grotesques.

 Imateria wrote:
Personally I've gotten far more out of my Scourges with Heat Lances than with Haywire. I think I've only once taken out a vehicle with Haywire in a single round of shooting whilst the Heat Lances do it quite often, and it's extremely important that they are able to kill something in one go as Scourge aren't likely to last too much longer than 1 shooting phase.

I've tried running Lelith in the past as well, usually with Incubi as they're just straight up better than Wyches, and it can be fun to have a single model with WS9 throwing 9 dice on the attack, but S3 really gimps her and she has no access to things like Archite Glaives or combat drugs to boost that strength before turn 4. I tend to stick to a Succubus with the Archite Glaive and the Armour of Misery joined to either Incubi or Grotesques.

Haywire blasters are situational, if you don't face the appropriate targets they're completely useless. But i won't run scourges with other weapons as lances are only s6 so not that good against av13-14 and they need to get way too closer to the enemy to be effective. If you really need to take down vehicles go for scourges with haywire blasters, otherwise don't take scourges at all, as ravagers, trueborn and even reavers with a blaster/lance are better for that role. A succubus with glaive and armour of misery that joins grotesques is by far my favourite dark eldar HQ, i take her everytime unless i want to run the corpsethief claw as a cheap lhamaean fits better because i need to save the points for other units.

 Blackie wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
Personally I've gotten far more out of my Scourges with Heat Lances than with Haywire. I think I've only once taken out a vehicle with Haywire in a single round of shooting whilst the Heat Lances do it quite often, and it's extremely important that they are able to kill something in one go as Scourge aren't likely to last too much longer than 1 shooting phase.

I've tried running Lelith in the past as well, usually with Incubi as they're just straight up better than Wyches, and it can be fun to have a single model with WS9 throwing 9 dice on the attack, but S3 really gimps her and she has no access to things like Archite Glaives or combat drugs to boost that strength before turn 4. I tend to stick to a Succubus with the Archite Glaive and the Armour of Misery joined to either Incubi or Grotesques.

Haywire blasters are situational, if you don't face the appropriate targets they're completely useless. But i won't run scourges with other weapons as lances are only s6 so not that good against av13-14 and they need to get way too closer to the enemy to be effective. If you really need to take down vehicles go for scourges with haywire blasters, otherwise don't take scourges at all, as ravagers, trueborn and even reavers with a blaster/lance are better for that role. A succubus with glaive and armour of misery that joins grotesques is by far my favourite dark eldar HQ, i take her everytime unless i want to run the corpsethief claw as a cheap lhamaean fits better because i need to save the points for other units.

Interestingly enough i wanted to run 4 grotesques with a succubus in a raider. I may have to make due with other hq choices in the mean time unfortunately.

My real issue is what i will do if i face super-heavies. In most normal games haywire is absolute garbage and i don't take it. However it certain games i'll face a person that takes a knight or other super heavy in a game smaller than 2,000 points and haywire would work best in this sort of fight.

Btw can you guys believe some people out there are actually talking about nerfing haywire? Most people see reason thankfully but this OP doesn't. If this guy's suggestions went through i would never take haywire ever. There would be no point.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/714072.page

Martel732 wrote:
I still don't get this. You reserve, and they can do minimal damage on turn 1. I get that But then you get some stuff on turn 2, don't do much damage because you've only got part of a mediocre army, and then the full enemy blasts your partial army on turn 2. And then they blast what turns up turn 3. And then blast what turns up turn 4. And then you're out of stuff.

Take the example against space marines, for example. They drop pod in near where a couple of the small units I left on the table are or near some objectives to score points or whatever the case may be. I often have 8 or 9 venoms, so I'm averaging about 6 with warriors inside coming in on turn 2. I pick an area to deploy where there are only a few units that will actually be able to hit me back the next turn and I focus fire everything I have into them. Typically, everything in the enemy army does not have the speed and range to hit you anywhere on the table so most units will be unable to retaliate if you deal with the few nearby threats. Depending on rapid fire and such, my 102-132 poison shots is enough to kill the units that could have actually hit me back the next turn and that's just with 630 points of my army. I still have other units that I vary a lot from razorwing jetfighters to scourges, scatbikes, or corsairs that are also coming in and hitting armor values or whatever I need.

Again, I'm not saying it's to be used against all armies or against all deployment, but the armies I listed are usually nullified by doing it. All those drop pod marines, for example, come in and shoot next to nothing then move too slow and have too little range to hit me for several more turns. It usually means I don't take any substantial firepower for several turns. Sacrificing one or two warriors squads to create a safe bubble for your reserves is also a good option when you're coming in against some kind of fast-moving assault units..

I found Lelith quite fun, I just realized she doesn't benefit from Combat Drugs, which really hurts, makes the impaler even more of an auto take. I might run her just because she is by far my favorite DE character, but she takes up so many points for such silly rules (3+ invuln is awesome, but paying for the extra WS and I are useless unless you're in combat with something you don't want to be in with). Good thing is that I don't have to feel guilty about taking her as she isn't too many points more than a succubus, and its not hard to switch the two out modularly.

I like haywire scourge, there are plenty of vehicles in my meta, sadly most are rhinos and the such, so I can never get a good gauge against the 'tough' stuff (LRs, IKs, etc etc), but scourge are a nice unit to have generally, I like the utility, and I keep them just incase of a knight or something of the sort.

I have never taken special weapons on reavers because I assume they'd always jink if shot at, so I feel it might be counter productive.

Thoughts on archons? (I had a crazy idea on a plane ride today for a scourge themed archon so like wings and a cape and the such, kinda like celestine except a purekin and not a filthy human.) I am moreso looking for some crazy nutball tactics that work, not the typic incubi/grotesques/whatever + shadowfield + sword/whip = profit(?). Generally I feel Sucubi are a lot better for anything choppy.

Thoughts on any use whatsoever for hellions? They are laughably bad but I see them used somewhat often which is baffling.

Dude, that extra point of Ws is one of the best things about her! The difference between Ws 8 and Ws 9 is the biggest difference in the game, being that Ws 4 (the most common Ws in the game) opponents now hit her on 5's.

With that in mind I'd still rather take 2 Succubi with Archite Glaives for a paultry 20pts more. But she's not terrible. They get combat drugs and make better use of Power From Pain, with furious charge these gals chop down MEQ units on their own.

The Archon on the other hand is. AP 3 hurts the huskblade soo bad. Shadowfield is good, but if you throw him in a unit of Grotesques it matters less. Succubus gets my vote.

Haywire Scourges all the way, it's soo easy to get 4 hits and 4 glances with these.

 Blackie wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
Personally I've gotten far more out of my Scourges with Heat Lances than with Haywire. I think I've only once taken out a vehicle with Haywire in a single round of shooting whilst the Heat Lances do it quite often, and it's extremely important that they are able to kill something in one go as Scourge aren't likely to last too much longer than 1 shooting phase.

I've tried running Lelith in the past as well, usually with Incubi as they're just straight up better than Wyches, and it can be fun to have a single model with WS9 throwing 9 dice on the attack, but S3 really gimps her and she has no access to things like Archite Glaives or combat drugs to boost that strength before turn 4. I tend to stick to a Succubus with the Archite Glaive and the Armour of Misery joined to either Incubi or Grotesques.

Haywire blasters are situational, if you don't face the appropriate targets they're completely useless. But i won't run scourges with other weapons as lances are only s6 so not that good against av13-14 and they need to get way too closer to the enemy to be effective. If you really need to take down vehicles go for scourges with haywire blasters, otherwise don't take scourges at all, as ravagers, trueborn and even reavers with a blaster/lance are better for that role. A succubus with glaive and armour of misery that joins grotesques is by far my favourite dark eldar HQ, i take her everytime unless i want to run the corpsethief claw as a cheap lhamaean fits better because i need to save the points for other units.

Haywire never works well for me, unlike Alex above I don't seem to be able to get 4 hits and 4 glances ever. Heat Lances are as effective against high armour targets as normal melta's are because of Lance, so the most you'll need on 2D6 for a glance is a 6, when the average roll is a 7. As for getting close, thats what Deep Strike is for and I tend to either get in close or mishap, then come in the next turn and get them. Usually I score 2 pens which thanks to AP1 gives me a very good chance of blowing up my target on a 5+ with 2 dice. Ceramite Armour is a problem but thats a lot less common in 40K than it is in 30K. Personally, the more I run Haywire Scourge, the more I'm finding them to be a waste of points, whilst Heat Lance Scourge are my most effective anti-tank. Special weapons on Reavers are a waste as they'll be jinking most of the time, Ravagers have proven a lot more effective for me with triple Disintegrators and hunting elite infantry and MC's. As for Trueborn, I've only just got enough models with Blasters to run them recently and their first two games have seen only 1 vehicle involved that wasn't mine, but they have killed a Terminator Librarian, Deathwing Knights and some Ravenwing so they're doing well so far.

I get the feeling that a Succubus with Glaive is highly underrated, whatever unit I join her with she tends to do work for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
Personally I've gotten far more out of my Scourges with Heat Lances than with Haywire. I think I've only once taken out a vehicle with Haywire in a single round of shooting whilst the Heat Lances do it quite often, and it's extremely important that they are able to kill something in one go as Scourge aren't likely to last too much longer than 1 shooting phase.

I've tried running Lelith in the past as well, usually with Incubi as they're just straight up better than Wyches, and it can be fun to have a single model with WS9 throwing 9 dice on the attack, but S3 really gimps her and she has no access to things like Archite Glaives or combat drugs to boost that strength before turn 4. I tend to stick to a Succubus with the Archite Glaive and the Armour of Misery joined to either Incubi or Grotesques.

Haywire blasters are situational, if you don't face the appropriate targets they're completely useless. But i won't run scourges with other weapons as lances are only s6 so not that good against av13-14 and they need to get way too closer to the enemy to be effective. If you really need to take down vehicles go for scourges with haywire blasters, otherwise don't take scourges at all, as ravagers, trueborn and even reavers with a blaster/lance are better for that role. A succubus with glaive and armour of misery that joins grotesques is by far my favourite dark eldar HQ, i take her everytime unless i want to run the corpsethief claw as a cheap lhamaean fits better because i need to save the points for other units.

Interestingly enough i wanted to run 4 grotesques with a succubus in a raider. I may have to make due with other hq choices in the mean time unfortunately.

My real issue is what i will do if i face super-heavies. In most normal games haywire is absolute garbage and i don't take it. However it certain games i'll face a person that takes a knight or other super heavy in a game smaller than 2,000 points and haywire would work best in this sort of fight.

Btw can you guys believe some people out there are actually talking about nerfing haywire? Most people see reason thankfully but this OP doesn't. If this guy's suggestions went through i would never take haywire ever. There would be no point.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/714072.page

Honestly I've found we're either best off ignoring Knights and the like or hitting them with every anti-tank weapon we can field and try to down them in one go, sadly it's a definite weak point for DE. And yes, that suggestion was a bit stupid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I found Lelith quite fun, I just realized she doesn't benefit from Combat Drugs, which really hurts, makes the impaler even more of an auto take. I might run her just because she is by far my favorite DE character, but she takes up so many points for such silly rules (3+ invuln is awesome, but paying for the extra WS and I are useless unless you're in combat with something you don't want to be in with). Good thing is that I don't have to feel guilty about taking her as she isn't too many points more than a succubus, and its not hard to switch the two out modularly.

I like haywire scourge, there are plenty of vehicles in my meta, sadly most are rhinos and the such, so I can never get a good gauge against the 'tough' stuff (LRs, IKs, etc etc), but scourge are a nice unit to have generally, I like the utility, and I keep them just incase of a knight or something of the sort.

I have never taken special weapons on reavers because I assume they'd always jink if shot at, so I feel it might be counter productive.

Thoughts on archons? (I had a crazy idea on a plane ride today for a scourge themed archon so like wings and a cape and the such, kinda like celestine except a purekin and not a filthy human.) I am moreso looking for some crazy nutball tactics that work, not the typic incubi/grotesques/whatever + shadowfield + sword/whip = profit(?). Generally I feel Sucubi are a lot better for anything choppy.

Thoughts on any use whatsoever for hellions? They are laughably bad but I see them used somewhat often which is baffling.

Archons with Scourge wings you say? Something like this then?



I tend to get the most out of Archons with a Blaster, Shadowfield and joined to a Court with plenty of Sslyth, they make for a good mop up unit but generally the Archon is seriously underwhelming thanks to the complete lack of AP2 or any real way to buff the rest of the army.

I just can't find it in me to like heat lances. 21'' threat range isn't actually that much in the scale of things, and it's not like Dark Eldar have a deficit of AP 2 shots. Indeed mass AP 2 fire power is the only redeeming quality of the ravager, give it nightfields and find it some cover and pump out 9 Str 5 AP 2 shots per turn.

Although something to note is that possibly unlike you I don't *want* explosions to happen. I usually run my Dark Eldar alongside Harlequins and I use my Haywire Scourges to reliably can-open transports for the Harlequins to dice the inside, so big explosions are decidedly not something I want to happen,

Am I the only one that deep strikes Scourge? Their total range doesn't matter and I certainly don't start them on the board, Scourge die really easily no matter how I run them so I use them as a suicide squad, they get one turn of shooting and thats usually it before they're dead. With that one turn of shooting I find Heat Lances have a much better chance of killing their target than Haywire Blasters do.

As for explosions, yeah I wouldn't want them going up next to a squad of Harlequins either, but Talos, Grotesques, Sslyth and Incubi are much better at surviving that.

 Imateria wrote:
Am I the only one that deep strikes Scourge? Their total range doesn't matter and I certainly don't start them on the board, Scourge die really easily no matter how I run them so I use them as a suicide squad, they get one turn of shooting and thats usually it before they're dead. With that one turn of shooting I find Heat Lances have a much better chance of killing their target than Haywire Blasters do.

As for explosions, yeah I wouldn't want them going up next to a squad of Harlequins either, but Talos, Grotesques, Sslyth and Incubi are much better at surviving that.

I deepstrike them too. Barring haywire they need to be pretty close, though sometimes I don't deepstrike blaster scourges

Thats a seriously cool looking kabalite warrior, is that your own creation, Imateria?

I deepstrike them, I like a bit of defensive deepstrikes (insert DoW2 joke here), usually the unaware opponent won't really care about them considering a grotesquerie (and soon to be 2 beastpacks, as I have the models so Ill replace my razorwings and try them out) in his face. Hopefully they can run around Hay-wiring stuff to death. I don't like the idea of heatlances because 21' threat range isn't terrible, but it really cuts down on the options available, especially when you deepstrike them. But hey, I'll give it a shot probably in the next game I play.

 Imateria wrote:
Am I the only one that deep strikes Scourge? Their total range doesn't matter and I certainly don't start them on the board, Scourge die really easily no matter how I run them so I use them as a suicide squad, they get one turn of shooting and thats usually it before they're dead. With that one turn of shooting I find Heat Lances have a much better chance of killing their target than Haywire Blasters do.

As for explosions, yeah I wouldn't want them going up next to a squad of Harlequins either, but Talos, Grotesques, Sslyth and Incubi are much better at surviving that.

I only deep strike one unit of heat lance scourge (they come in with an archon with webway portal). I might even keep a 2nd unit of heat lance scourge on the table because even though a 21" threat range is not so hot for some things coming at you it's not too shabby. That said i'd imagine the scariest vehicles at this point just hang back. I remember hearing many people say they don't take landraiders. In the case of some large ork walkers it could have potential provided they're melee walkers (which they honestly should be).

I don't think there other ways to play scourges efficiently without deep striking them, but they don't want to come too close to the enemy as they're very vulnerable and every shot they fire after the turn they arrive can be invaluable. A single volley of scourges hits can be good, but two of them can be excellent. About super heavies i agree on ignoring them, unless you're quite sure they would be part of the opponent's list, i won't bother with haywire blasters scourges. All dark eldars anti tanks units have issues, we don't have a very reliable anti tank so every choice is meta dependent actually. I take ravagers with lances all the time, with shields and always in cover so they get a 3/4+ without jinking. About weapons on reavers i'm not sure, they cost just 10 points and as i run only min units of them, typically with 5 venoms, 2 raiders and 3 ravagers, they don't become a priority target every turn so they're not jinking all the time.

I disagree mostly. The only scourge you should deep strike and only in certain circumstances are heat lance scourge. Haywire scourge generally have the range and blaster scourge probably will too. Of course blasterborn are probably a better setup in a vehicle.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I disagree mostly. The only scourge you should deep strike and only in certain circumstances are heat lance scourge. Haywire scourge generally have the range and blaster scourge probably will too. Of course blasterborn are probably a better setup in a vehicle.

Scourges benefit from deep striking not only because they would arrive wherever they need to be but also because they'd have a chance to shoot with the full unit for one turn at least. If you place them during deployment and go second they may be wiped out quite easily as they're only 5 dark eldars with armor 4+. Yes you can hide them but in many scenarios they can be killed turn 1 regardless of the terrain, and you'll lose both your best anti tank and first blood. I don't like using reserves in general but scourges are an excpetion, if you take them they must have the chance to strike so they can't be killed/crippled in the previous turn or out of range/LOS in your turn because the opponent's vehicles are too far away or hidden behind a huge piece of terrain.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Thats a seriously cool looking kabalite warrior, is that your own creation, Imateria?

Yes, I finished it up just at the start of the week actually, those two parts that stick out on the back of Kabalite Warriors makes for a good base to glue Scourge Wings onto. Too bad there are no official rules for her to use them.

 Blackie wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I disagree mostly. The only scourge you should deep strike and only in certain circumstances are heat lance scourge. Haywire scourge generally have the range and blaster scourge probably will too. Of course blasterborn are probably a better setup in a vehicle.

Scourges benefit from deep striking not only because they would arrive wherever they need to be but also because they'd have a chance to shoot with the full unit for one turn at least. If you place them during deployment and go second they may be wiped out quite easily as they're only 5 dark eldars with armor 4+. Yes you can hide them but in many scenarios they can be killed turn 1 regardless of the terrain, and you'll lose both your best anti tank and first blood. I don't like using reserves in general but scourges are an excpetion, if you take them they must have the chance to strike so they can't be killed/crippled in the previous turn or out of range/LOS in your turn because the opponent's vehicles are too far away or hidden behind a huge piece of terrain.

Unless the enemy is tau and they shoot at reserves as they come in. In which case you are feeding them to the enemy guns.

Also having more of your force on the board often makes you live longer and do more. I honestly don't understand the idea of splitting your force up. Depending on the enemy most of their guns have range to you and will shoot off what little you have.

If i place my scourge second as well as my army 2nd (because i lost the chance to go first) i actually don't think it's as ****ing as most people make it out to be. When i fought a necron decurion most of his stuff had average range and i just deployed on 1/2 or 1/3 of my board mostly with the ravagers hugging cover. Most of his stuff couldn't engage most of my force and some units had to engage certain things which didn't matter and didn't do much. You have to understand dark eldar can move faster than other factions. If an opponent tried similar vs dark eldar we could get to where we need to be to engage the enemy rather quickly. Most factions can't do that or at least not as fast. Admittedly the static armies are more gunline based and will usually have range regardless but unless they're smart missiles or mortars hitting it's usually not easy to hit the scourge and if you have a bunch of scourge anti-tank squads they can only hit maybe a couple. This isn't even considering if you can neuter some of those mortars or similar early. You just have to understand what you have to hit and when. Sure scourge die easily but if you kill or badly damage the things that can hit them while out of line of sight then their chance to survive goes up.

My other issue with deep strike with scourge is you basically place them in the jaws of the enemy in which case they will get shot up after the turn they come in. Starting them deployed i can keep them in cover and move up. Also i don't have to worry about a possible turn 4 delayed reserves thing happening which in the case of both myself and a GSC with tyranids player we saw firsthand just how bad reserve rolls can be (or for him the special ambush) and just how badly they can screw a game for you.

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All this said i am a little nervous about something. If the enemy really does choose gunline and they take wyverns for instance then how best should i handle this? Normally i dislike the idea of most str 8 ap 2 lance weapons but without turn 1 neutering of wyverns i may see myself in a lot of pain. I hear taken in 3's they can be pretty stupid good and they can usually annihilate a squad a piece (possibly even scourge out of line of sight).

I suppose what i'm trying to say is as much as people would probably fight the idea i might actually need to use dark lances or at least haywire scourge to handle those wyverns. I just seriously can't think of another way to kill em off on turn 1 and i may need to esp. if i go second.

Considering guard are a very specific enemy i probably won't face 3 wyverns or at least not frequently (i only know of one game where i faced just one). However i think my current list can't handle that issue very well. This isn't to say my list is optimal even to my own specifications and far less to competitive people i'm sure. However it would cause me a lot of trouble to deal with and those mortars that avoid cover light up my reavers as well.