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 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


And now we see that you actually have no idea what Orks (As per the example given) could even use in this case to kill off the Drones. Let me just say that Ork shooting is, generally, one of the worse in the game. Given that your Markerlight bearers in this situation are close enough to the Fire Warriors to benefit from Supporting Fire, they can't really be charged out, without this situation happening, and any shooting will be negligent, as the Tau player can take out the few decent Ork shooting units with Stormsurges, Seeker Missiles, etc etc.

Well, Ork Lootas are a good shooting unit to take out any markerlight unit as they outrange the markerlight and also negate saves. So then it is a matter of getting them into position and keeping them alive. Or there is Lobbas. Again they outrange markerlights, they also negate pathfinder armour and could potentially negate cover depending on what cover the pathfinders have. They don't require LOS either.

So then it is just a matter of keeping those units alive, which is best done by distracting the scary stuff with your scary CC stuff loaded in battlewagons and keeping their AV14 pointing at the Tau army. Hold them back out of markerlight range until you've weakened the markerlight units. The Tau player will have to react in order to try and take out the units hitting their markerlight sources, which can pull their units out of position and into the range of your own guns.

Yeaahhh in practice that doesn't work well.. AV14 pointed at the enemy tends to be avoided by the simple ability to jet around to pick at the much weaker sides and provide them with easy kills, and many of the better weapons on Tau are able to reach Loota range and no cover saves will protect Da looterz. Who are still beholden to that awful D3 mechanic of how much shots you'll be able to plink at them with BS2.

Tau are not fair. They are more fair than some Imperial death stars and certain eldar builds. That's about it. They have severely undercosted MCs at their disposal that shoot as well as fight in CC.

They also have access to too many low AP blasts, making them strong vs units that already sucked, and making their "weakness" other MCs, which were already too good.

Their shooting output is just far too high for the point investment of their units in a shooting-dominant rule set. Being weak to melee that never happens isn't a weakness. And even then, monster mash can beat a lot of other lists in CC.

 Vryce wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
The problem with Tau is that, especially now, their entire army design is one dimensional. They do one thing and they do it better than almost all other armies, and the only time they move is to take objectives. A faction that mechanically ignores 2 main phases of the game is just horribly designed and incredibly boring to play against it- add up the fact that it's often overpowered as hell against mid-tier armies and you get something so bad you're forced to boycott anybody who doesn't play a heavily nerfed list. There's no point in playing a game you know you have a 70% or greater chance of losing.

In all honesty what would really help is if Tau didn't get to avoid the gets hot rule. I imagine if Fire Warriors and Battlesuits ran the risk of exploding if you ran an all-gun army and new melee units were added to the Tau similar to Farsight, you wouldn't see Tau players pitch a tent on one side of the board.

And Khorne armies are not one dimensional like the Tau. Not only do they move around a lot, but they don't just engage in melee. They shoot quite a fair bit as well. The only thing they do is ignore the psychic phase, like Necrons.

Emphasis mine.

Tau have always been one dimensional in design. They were introduced with the idea that they, as a species, found close combat to be an anathema to their way of war. So, they had their allies, the Kroot, for that. Unfortunately, they were horribly designed for it. They had no save, no real 'combat' ability, and had Rapid Fire weapons. At best, they were a screening unit. Tau have had shooting as their bread and butter for ~16yrs now. The basic rules have just come to a position that drastically highlights this particular way of war. And of course, the codex writers jumped the proverbial shark, as it were, when writing their 6th/7th ed codeci.

And Tau don't get to avoid the Gets Hot! rule. Our plasma weaponry is lower strength then Imperial variants, so therefore, does not Get Hot!. All the other weaponry we have that does Get Hot!, unless it is twin-linked, or boosted to the point of re-rolls for high BS, we have to worry about killing/hurting us too. And we aren't the only army that has twin-linked Gets Hot! weapons, so that's not all on us either.

Also, please stop trying to shove 'melee suits' down our throats. Very few of us want that (at least the players that enjoy the Tau for their fluff certainly don't). We don't "Set up a tent" across the table from you because we can't engage in melee. We play to the strengths in our army that the current rules encourage. Speaking for myself only here, castling up in my deployment zone makes for a hellaciously boring game. I'm far more mobile than most marine armies I face, actually.

I've said it many times in this thread, but those of us who actually love the army for its fluff, are as unhappy with the ultra-suit spam and the ungodly formation benefits we enjoy that many of you are - and those of us with an ounce of sportsmanship have actively decided not to use the grossly ridiculous offenders.

I've never seen Tau really jump around in games except with suits. Most of the time they sit behind some cover or a wall and shoot, venturing out to seize objectives. And I'm talking about perhaps giving pulse rifles -1 rend but at the cost of gets hot, as it would very least incentivize the player to not act in that matter, and adding melee units allows the Tau to function normally instead of being some weird one-off. The problem with Tau is that building them from the start to ignore most phases of the game is a mistake and bad game design. When you make a game, everything should participate as much as possible. Creating a faction that plays so you ignore multiple aspects of the game itself means you've made an army for the wrong game. An army that purely shoots at things doesn't belong in 40k, it belongs in Flames of War.

Adding melee units isn't just for the benefit of the Tau, it's adding them for the benefit of opponents as well so Tau aren't boring as hell to fight/a shooting gallery.

Narratively you can easily spin it as the Farsight Enclaves realizing that sticking power swords on their Battlesuits isn't a bad idea after Mont'ka.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


And now we see that you actually have no idea what Orks (As per the example given) could even use in this case to kill off the Drones. Let me just say that Ork shooting is, generally, one of the worse in the game. Given that your Markerlight bearers in this situation are close enough to the Fire Warriors to benefit from Supporting Fire, they can't really be charged out, without this situation happening, and any shooting will be negligent, as the Tau player can take out the few decent Ork shooting units with Stormsurges, Seeker Missiles, etc etc.

Well, Ork Lootas are a good shooting unit to take out any markerlight unit as they outrange the markerlight and also negate saves. So then it is a matter of getting them into position and keeping them alive. Or there is Lobbas. Again they outrange markerlights, they also negate pathfinder armour and could potentially negate cover depending on what cover the pathfinders have. They don't require LOS either.

So then it is just a matter of keeping those units alive, which is best done by distracting the scary stuff with your scary CC stuff loaded in battlewagons and keeping their AV14 pointing at the Tau army. Hold them back out of markerlight range until you've weakened the markerlight units. The Tau player will have to react in order to try and take out the units hitting their markerlight sources, which can pull their units out of position and into the range of your own guns.

Yeaahhh in practice that doesn't work well.. AV14 pointed at the enemy tends to be avoided by the simple ability to jet around to pick at the much weaker sides and provide them with easy kills, and many of the better weapons on Tau are able to reach Loota range and no cover saves will protect Da looterz. Who are still beholden to that awful D3 mechanic of how much shots you'll be able to plink at them with BS2.

Tau firepower is actually often localised between the 24" to 42" range bracket (6" move and 18" burst cannon and 6" move and 36" missile pod). Their innate Ignores Cover weaponry has a max range of 42" (12" move and then 30" SMS).

Tau weapons with ranges of 48" or greater are the HRR, Railgun, Ion Cannon, Ion Accelerator, Seeker Missile, Longshot Pulse Rifle, Pulse Driver Cannon, Destroyer Missile and Cluster Rocket System.

Out of them, the HRR is never used, Railgun and Ion Cannon also basically never sees the table, Seeker Missile is a one shot, one use only krak missile, Longshot is just a sniper rifle and only available on one unit which is competing with Broadsides. The Ion Accelerator is only present on one unit in the Tau army (Riptide), admittedly one which is often spammed. The Pulse Driver Cannon, Destroyer Missile and CRS are all on the same unit (Stormsurge) and none of them have innate ignores cover. Neither of the units with access to the most widely used guns with 48" range or greater can benefit from ignores cover except from markerlights. They cannot get it from a commander as they are monstrous creatures and none of the formation bonuses give it to them.

You are assuming that meele is the epithome of fun gameplay. A totally meele game is as boring as a totally shooting game based in inmovile gunlines. Just move, charge, and roll dice because once you are engaged in meele you have 0 choice capacity. If you don't like Tau gameplay, thats fine. I don't like Necron gameplay too, but I don't say that they don't belong to 40k from a gameplay perspective.

Tau can be fun to play without needing meele units. They can shoot, move, use the cover, the map, etc...

But to that happen, you need to nerf the most OP stuff in the codex that favour a static gunline style of play and make the more movile stuff and short range units viable.
And put more damm terrain on the table and play to objetives!

 Wyzilla wrote:
The problem with Tau is that building them from the start to ignore most phases of the game is a mistake and bad game design.

Tau weren't built from the start to ignore most phases of the game. They were built to be a mobile mechanised force with more limited numbers than the Imperial Guard who had increased mobility and firepower to counter that and keep themselves alive.

So Tau were designed to make the most of the shooting and movement phases with all their units, and the assault phase for their jetpacks. So that is two out of three phases of the game (at the time). Even now with the Psychic phase being a thing if Tau were to revert back to their initial concept they would still participate in half of the phases of the game, which is not ignoring most phases

GW then gave them models which did not require to move due to the long range of their weapons and were tough enough to just stand there in the open and not die and special rules which rewarded you for castling up. The issue is not Tau focusing on shooting over melee combat, it is that GW is gak at writing rules and creating interesting units which reflect the fluff.

I mean, lets look at the Fish of Fury tactic, the epitome of Tau cheese (apart from maybe S10 spam) in 4th edition. This was where a devilfish would drive up to the enemy, drop out a unit of fire warriors in rapid fire range and detach its drones, positioning all three units in such a way as to prevent the opponent from being able to charge the fire warriors thanks to the "cannot move within 1" of enemy model unless charging" rule. The Fire Warriors would then unload on the enemy thanks to the LOS rules regarding skimmers in 4th ed (they didn't block LOS for friendly models). On their next turn (if they were still alive) they hop back into the fish (if it is still alive) and repeat the procedure.

So the original Tau cheese strategy required careful movement and positioning of your units in order to work. The issue is therefore obviously not having an army focus on shooting over melee combat, but creating units which can do so whilst also being able to ignore the movement phase, which is not how the Tau were originally designed.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Vryce wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
The problem with Tau is that, especially now, their entire army design is one dimensional. They do one thing and they do it better than almost all other armies, and the only time they move is to take objectives. A faction that mechanically ignores 2 main phases of the game is just horribly designed and incredibly boring to play against it- add up the fact that it's often overpowered as hell against mid-tier armies and you get something so bad you're forced to boycott anybody who doesn't play a heavily nerfed list. There's no point in playing a game you know you have a 70% or greater chance of losing.

In all honesty what would really help is if Tau didn't get to avoid the gets hot rule. I imagine if Fire Warriors and Battlesuits ran the risk of exploding if you ran an all-gun army and new melee units were added to the Tau similar to Farsight, you wouldn't see Tau players pitch a tent on one side of the board.

And Khorne armies are not one dimensional like the Tau. Not only do they move around a lot, but they don't just engage in melee. They shoot quite a fair bit as well. The only thing they do is ignore the psychic phase, like Necrons.

Emphasis mine.

Tau have always been one dimensional in design. They were introduced with the idea that they, as a species, found close combat to be an anathema to their way of war. So, they had their allies, the Kroot, for that. Unfortunately, they were horribly designed for it. They had no save, no real 'combat' ability, and had Rapid Fire weapons. At best, they were a screening unit. Tau have had shooting as their bread and butter for ~16yrs now. The basic rules have just come to a position that drastically highlights this particular way of war. And of course, the codex writers jumped the proverbial shark, as it were, when writing their 6th/7th ed codeci.

And Tau don't get to avoid the Gets Hot! rule. Our plasma weaponry is lower strength then Imperial variants, so therefore, does not Get Hot!. All the other weaponry we have that does Get Hot!, unless it is twin-linked, or boosted to the point of re-rolls for high BS, we have to worry about killing/hurting us too. And we aren't the only army that has twin-linked Gets Hot! weapons, so that's not all on us either.

Also, please stop trying to shove 'melee suits' down our throats. Very few of us want that (at least the players that enjoy the Tau for their fluff certainly don't). We don't "Set up a tent" across the table from you because we can't engage in melee. We play to the strengths in our army that the current rules encourage. Speaking for myself only here, castling up in my deployment zone makes for a hellaciously boring game. I'm far more mobile than most marine armies I face, actually.

I've said it many times in this thread, but those of us who actually love the army for its fluff, are as unhappy with the ultra-suit spam and the ungodly formation benefits we enjoy that many of you are - and those of us with an ounce of sportsmanship have actively decided not to use the grossly ridiculous offenders.

I've never seen Tau really jump around in games except with suits. Most of the time they sit behind some cover or a wall and shoot, venturing out to seize objectives. And I'm talking about perhaps giving pulse rifles -1 rend but at the cost of gets hot, as it would very least incentivize the player to not act in that matter, and adding melee units allows the Tau to function normally instead of being some weird one-off. The problem with Tau is that building them from the start to ignore most phases of the game is a mistake and bad game design. When you make a game, everything should participate as much as possible. Creating a faction that plays so you ignore multiple aspects of the game itself means you've made an army for the wrong game. An army that purely shoots at things doesn't belong in 40k, it belongs in Flames of War.

Adding melee units isn't just for the benefit of the Tau, it's adding them for the benefit of opponents as well so Tau aren't boring as hell to fight/a shooting gallery.

Narratively you can easily spin it as the Farsight Enclaves realizing that sticking power swords on their Battlesuits isn't a bad idea after Mont'ka.

So, let me get this straight - you want to give our basic infantry weapon, a special rule that no other basic infantry weapon has in exchange for -1 rend, to what..? Make us stop shooting?? To make us go out and take objectives? (hint - in order win most games, we actually have to do that) Look, just because we don't have melee units, doesn't mean we don't 'function normally'. Do gun-line SM armies not function normally? What about IG? Necrons? And if they don't 'function normally', do their basic weapons have to have Gets Hot! too?

You simply want to pile nerfs on us because "You've never seen Tau really jump around in games except with suits." Tell ya what, if suddenly all our pulse rifles/carbines did Get Hot!, all you would ever see on a table with Tau would be battle suits, and you would have stopped nothing. Seriously, if you've seen as many Tau players play as you imply, playing the way you've implied they play, you would know that there's maybe 10-15 Firewarriors on the board, and the rest is suits. If those players no longer see any point to running Firewarriors because they'll kill 2-3 Firewarriors per shooting phase with Gets Hot! rolls, then guess what those points will be spent on instead - MORE SUITS!

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm not for nerfing Tau to the ground. I'm for making them balanced. They are not balanced at the moment. That doesn't mean making them S2 AP- pulse rifles and suchlike - it means making sure they can actually be threatened by most threats in the game.

Didn't in the last major Tournament, Tau only get like mid ranks overall?

Renegades dominated tho

 Gamgee wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Vryce wrote:
Actually, Marker-Drones are generally superior to Pathfinders for several reasons

1) Better toughness (4) and Sv (4+).

2) Relentless Jet Pack infantry; so they can reposition easier. And, iirc, if taken in the Drone-Net formation, they benefit from +1 BS, so have the same BS as Pathfinders.

3) Can be joined by a Commander w/ a Drone Controller for BS5 markerlights

Most of your 'competetive' Tau lists will have no Pathfinders in their army at all, just Marker Drones.

Ah, I will concede the durability point. Good catch!

However, excluding Formations and added Characters, which could improve Pathfinders in similar ways, Drones have less BS (not relevant for Overwatch though), and AFAIK lack Supporting Fire.

You have no idea what your talking about do you. A Tau Commander upgraded can buff his drones to BS 5. Then join a unit of them. Since his drones are his equipment he can split fire on a key target and then the other 4 drones in the squad markerdrone someone else. It was common before drone net formation. Also all of your examples are just in a vacuum as well and prove nothing just as much as mine. Also I don't have any of those codices and its been so long I can't even begin to remember what they have to kill marker lights. All I know is I was not given the chance to swap armies to try and see it from the other side.

So hey I can't help it if the 40k fanbase has a stick so far up its ass I can't even try learn other armies. My community in particular is extremely hostile. I met another nids player and complimented his army. We were talking for about 10 mins and him and his 3 friends. Then as soon as I mention I play Tau they all go stone faced and say they don't play Tau and don't want to talk to me anymore.

I would posit that, if these are the people you play with, you need to find a different playgroup or hobby, because your frustrations with Tau are only a symptom, not the cause, if this is *really* the way people behave. It won't matter if you play Tau or Spehse Muhreens or Eldar or any other army, if they're willing to behave like that then you're going to have problems regardless.

I can say having played this game for a significant portion of my life and through many tournaments large and small, at many events in and through many playgroups in multiple cities, I have never witnessed people literally just stop speaking to someone or act in anything near this manner simply based on the fact that they play army X or Y. I've seen people act like jerks for all sorts of reasons, but never have I encountered such strong hate towards any single army, much less Tau in particular, that they would behave like that just because you play that army.

The worst I've ever seen is a "oh great, not again", but even then that's directed at either having to play against Marines for the 43rd week in a row or a very obvious and cookiecutter Eldar netlist or something.

 Talamare wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm not for nerfing Tau to the ground. I'm for making them balanced. They are not balanced at the moment. That doesn't mean making them S2 AP- pulse rifles and suchlike - it means making sure they can actually be threatened by most threats in the game.

Didn't in the last major Tournament, Tau only get like mid ranks overall?

Renegades dominated tho

Over two years of play a Tau player finally made the top 10 took 7th at this years LVO. The first major tournament win for the faction. Funnily enough the only in meta thing he used was Riptide Wing. Other than that he used a fairly anti-meta list. He had four skyrays and only one stormsurge. There have been some minor wins here and there at smaller ITC tournaments, but it's an incredibly low number. Top lists this year was chaos deamons with magnus who had two of the top 8 spots. Then an eldar player, a super friends death star (space marines), and I forget. Check out blood of kittens even shows their lists. An interesting thing to note a primary detachment of Dark Eldar placed 9th place with only a minor amount of Eldar in his list. That dude is amazing. The only other time Tau dominate are the big no holds barred once in awhile style games because of the Ta'uanr. However regular play it is banned since it's basically a titan.

Nothing in this thread that I've seen has given me any faith that these are anything but scrub tier players who are just butt hurt and taking it out on the Tau instead of getting mad at GW and asking for buffs.

Edit
Except Traditio he cool. He reasonable even if he doesn't like the Tau.

Edit
Well congratulations Vak. You must have some nice people there. Doesn't solve my problem that they don't play Tau players. As a matter of fact I know one other dude who collects Tau and he has a lot of problems getting games. They tolerate him more since he has been there for so long (founding member of the group kinda guy) and also has an IG army. Even the store owner doesn't want to play with the 40k crowd here anymore and has sold off everything he had. It's a right sad state. I'm sure there's decent players in my town somewhere, but I can't find them. I sometimes regret getting into the hobby. I see shitposting on the internet like in this thread and laugh it off as impossible, but then it happens to me. I too once had faith humanity Vak. I thought it was ridiculous when I heard stories online about Tau discrimination. Who could take a dumb game of toy plastic soldiers so seriously, but the answer is a lot of people.

Incidentally, I'm surprised that nobody has noted how the new AP system is actually a slight nerf to the Riptide.

Krak missiles likely will bring the riptide down from a 2+ to a 4+, even assuming no other changes.

It's now stronger against lascannons, but let's not kid ourselves: it probably was going to have an invuln anyway.

 Traditio wrote:
Incidentally, I'm surprised that nobody has noted how the new AP system is actually a slight nerf to the Riptide.

Krak missiles likely will bring the riptide down from a 2+ to a 4+, even assuming no other changes.

It's now stronger against lascannons, but let's not kid ourselves: it probably was going to have an invuln anyway.

No, it's not. It takes D6 wounds from failed saves.

Martel732 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Incidentally, I'm surprised that nobody has noted how the new AP system is actually a slight nerf to the Riptide.

Krak missiles likely will bring the riptide down from a 2+ to a 4+, even assuming no other changes.

It's now stronger against lascannons, but let's not kid ourselves: it probably was going to have an invuln anyway.

No, it's not. It takes D6 wounds from failed saves.

It may have more wounds to compensate, though.

Nonetheless, I will admit that I forgot about this at the time of posting.

Good point.

The Riptide can also (theoretically) benefit from physical cover in a way it never really has been able to before, however.

But yes, I think the Riptide in 8th will probably be more vulnerable to the sort of anti-tank weapons it should, while being even more durable against the pitter patter of the lasguns, bolters, and the like.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
The Riptide can also (theoretically) benefit from physical cover in a way it never really has been able to before, however.

This remains to be seen.

GW has told us that craters will only provide cover to infantry. So we know that the riptide won't be able to benefit from at least some kinds of cover.

I also wish to note that the changes to templates are a major nerf to the riptide.

Have fun dropping that pie plate on all of my marines...oh...wait...That's right. You don't HAVE a pie plate any more.

 Traditio wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
The Riptide can also (theoretically) benefit from physical cover in a way it never really has been able to before, however.

This remains to be seen.

GW has told us that craters will only provide cover to infantry. So we know that the riptide won't be able to benefit from at least some kinds of cover.

I also wish to note that the changes to templates are a major nerf to the riptide.

Have fun dropping that pie plate on all of my marines...oh...wait...That's right. You don't HAVE a pie plate any more.

True, we know some cover limits who can benefit, but I have a hard time imagining that Riptides (or any model that isn't a Flyer, for that matter) will be unable to benefit from ANY physical cover.

The changes to templates may or may not be a major nerf - we won't really know until we see what Blasts and Large Blasts look like.

If the Flamer is indicative of the general direction, the Riptide is certainly more vulnerable to Template weapons (what used to be a single auto-hit became 1d6 autohits) and likely Blasts/Large Blasts (presumably 1d3 and 1d6 respectively, but that's just speculation).

But then, most of my opponents were spacing their models to the max when at all possible, so aside from Deepstriking non-Droppod units like Terminators (where a Large Blast could catch 5-10 models if you hit right on), I was only really getting 2-4 models under my Large Blasts anyway (when they didn't scatter off target - I didn't always have 8+ MLs to ignore cover and get BS 10), and that was limited to single hits against bigger targets like Vehicles and MCs.

With the proposed presumed change, my Riptides may well have become significantly more reliable (1d6 auto hits versus 2-4 hits around 3/4 of the time, albeit with a lower maximum number of wounds) and significantly more capable against other MCs/Vehicles.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Riptide (and other OP MCs) will be getting knocked down a peg or two, but I wouldn't be too quick to gloat about template changes - based on reasonable speculation, they're not nearly as weakened as you seem to think.

Unusual Suspect wrote:Don't get me wrong, I think the Riptide (and other OP MCs) will be getting knocked down a peg or two, but I wouldn't be too quick to gloat about template changes - based on reasonable speculation, they're not nearly as weakened as you seem to think.

I think that what you said was basically accurate.

This is why I think it's a nerf to riptides:

Yes, you are going to be doing more reliable damage. You'll also be doing more damage to single models.

However:

The damage is going to be limited to single units. You won't be able to do multi-unit damage with blasts.

Also, this will allow your opponent to crowd models together in cover.

 Traditio wrote:

Unusual Suspect wrote:Don't get me wrong, I think the Riptide (and other OP MCs) will be getting knocked down a peg or two, but I wouldn't be too quick to gloat about template changes - based on reasonable speculation, they're not nearly as weakened as you seem to think.

I think that what you said was basically accurate.

This is why I think it's a nerf to riptides:

Yes, you are going to be doing more reliable damage. You'll also be doing more damage to single models.

However:

The damage is going to be limited to single units. You won't be able to do multi-unit damage with blasts.

True (barring some Split Fire shenanigans we haven't heard about yet, anyway).

To be honest, aside from the occasional lucky (and the even more rare UNlucky) scatter dice, I really wasn't hitting more than one unit anyway (and if I was, I wasn't inflicting much in the way of casualties on the originally targetted unit - kinda a zero sum game, when it comes to fitting well-spaced models under a Blast Marker).

That is to say, to whatever extent that nerf applies, I'm getting even MORE consistency in inflicting wounds against my preferred target.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:


Also, this will allow your opponent to crowd models together in cover.

While true, that isn't really relevant to whether the Riptide is nerfed or not...

Unusual Suspect wrote:(and the even more rare UNlucky) scatter dice

While true, that isn't really relevant to whether the Riptide is nerfed or not...

It's an indirect nerf, to be sure, but I think it will be a noticeable one.

Basically, in 7th, if I see that you have a riptide, then my focus in deployment and movement will be to minimize the impact of those pie plates. That might have to mean that some of my models are outside of cover, or else, in less than optimal cover.

Now that this is no longer an issue, you'll likely find that, even though you have a riptide on the field, more of your opponents' models are in cover.

Again, it's not a direct nerf to the Riptide per se, but it is an indirect nerf to armies that normally use riptides.

Your army is going to be slightly less effective overall.

Gamgee, I can understand your rage. The tau hate on internet can be tiresome after years of reading it. But calling people buthurtts doesn't help. Keep 1# please. Just relax, this is a game at the end of the day.
The answer to people calling the obvious OP things of Tau (Riptide Wing, Stormsurge) is not "git gud". But I can agree that I have seen here some people that just don't want to change their tactics to take down a opponent.

And after many years of warhammer and warhammer40k I have seen that many times. I understand, models are expensive, and changing your list and army is not a thing that you can do from day to day. But I have encounter many many people that just don't want to change their playstile, ignoring the oponent they face, and then they are destroyed by some oponents that don't are really OP, just have a army that they don't know how to play against.
Is more easy to call things "OP OMG CHANGE TAU MONODIMENSIONAL THEY ARE BORING!" that recognise our own lack of tactical skill.

But, before anyone get offended by this, Tau have some OP things, thats a fact. Not many really because 80% of the unit roster is quasi useless, but what they have OP, is very OP. But really, you can see the same with the Flyrant spam, and they don't receive the same hate, or the hate in the same way.
People say "Make Tyranid viable again, and nerf the Flyrant spam buffing the rest of the codex!"
When people talk about the Tau they don't say "Make the rest of the codex viable and keep them fluffy, and balance Stormsurge and Riptides, and eliminate Riptide Wing!". No. You keep earing "Tau are just booring, their style/fluff/gameplay/game mechanic is just unfun and don't fit with 40k. Make them something that they don't are so they enter what I think should be 40k!"

And, in your history about Tau discrimination...

Lucky, my group is very cool and 100% narrative driven. But years ago, in a vacation trip to another city, I bringed my 1850 tau list, even without Riptides! And just saying that I played Tau make all the 6 players in the store look at me put condescending faces to me. I ended playing with a child, givin him 500 points of my force to use in a kind of "demo" game.

 Traditio wrote:

Spoiler:

Unusual Suspect wrote:(and the even more rare UNlucky) scatter dice

While true, that isn't really relevant to whether the Riptide is nerfed or not...

It's an indirect nerf, to be sure, but I think it will be a noticeable one.

Basically, in 7th, if I see that you have a riptide, then my focus in deployment and movement will be to minimize the impact of those pie plates. That might have to mean that some of my models are outside of cover, or else, in less than optimal cover.

Now that this is no longer an issue, you'll likely find that, even though you have a riptide on the field, more of your opponents' models are in cover.

Again, it's not a direct nerf to the Riptide per se, but it is an indirect nerf to armies that normally use riptides.

Your army is going to be slightly less effective overall.

Re: Spoiler, I see your point.

Re: Effectiveness, don't count your Ethereal Scalps before the battle's over!

Unlimited number of Overwatch attacks, the ability to voluntarily withdraw, and the general speed available to some part of the Tau Empire army (battlesuits, Piranhas, Tanks, 'Tides, 'Keels, etc.)... let's just say I think its a bit early to call.

Galas wrote:N]o. You keep [h]earing "Tau are just booring, their style/fluff/gameplay/game mechanic is just unfun and don't fit with 40k. Make them something that they don't are so they enter what I think should be 40k!"

There really is some hypocrisy in all of this, though, isn't there?

I don't see many threads complaining about the IG playstyle.

Nor do I see many threads complaining about Leeman Russes, or Wyverns or Manticores.

Except threads started by me. I occasionally complain about those things.

Like just now.

 Traditio wrote:

Galas wrote:N]o. You keep [h]earing "Tau are just booring, their style/fluff/gameplay/game mechanic is just unfun and don't fit with 40k. Make them something that they don't are so they enter what I think should be 40k!"

There really is some hypocrisy in all of this, though, isn't there?

I don't see many threads complaining about the IG playstyle.

Nor do I see many threads complaining about Leeman Russes, or Wyverns or Manticores.

Except threads started by me. I occasionally complain about those things.

Like just now.

Yeah. I said it before. The hate for Tau started for their aesthetics and their fluff. Then, even when they where pretty crappy in gaming power, they receive hate for they shooting focused playstile. When the OP fest began, it was just the cherry on top. Other armies have been much more OP, or have just the same "boring" playstile, as you said, the Imperial Guard, but never receive as much hate as the Tau. (Maybe Grey Knights, a combination of Mat Ward-ness hate+Baby carrier OP combos)

Unusual Suspect wrote:Unlimited number of Overwatch attacks, the ability to voluntarily withdraw, and the general speed available to some part of the Tau Empire army (battlesuits, Piranhas, Tanks, 'Tides, 'Keels, etc.)... let's just say I think its a bit early to call.

To be sure!

I will say this, though:

I am feeling VERY optimistic about all of this. [And for the record, if what Galef said in the other thread is true, I think that the previous concern I voiced about unlimited overwatched may actually be without warrant...might we start to see consolidations into close combat again?]

Given that GW is actually doing significant playtesting this time around and getting input from TOs...

...I think that we are going to end up with something amazing.

So amazing, that when power armored marines meet the Tau and riptides, we will hear no longer the tortured screams of Martel, but rather...

 Traditio wrote:


So amazing, that when power armored marines meet the Tau and riptides, we will hear no longer the tortured screams of Martel, but rather...

[youtube=The Good, The Bad and the Ugly]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFa1-kciCb4[/youtube]

Don't be silly, of course we'll still be hearing the tortured screams of Martel.

As a Tau player, the sing of a Dreadnought ripping appart a Riptide in meele just tingle my inner child. Really, I just wan't to fight against the most iconic things in warhammer, Marines, Dreadnoughts, etc... with my lines after lines of Tau Warriors. The fact that the most iconic things of every army are... the most useless thing in every army, shows how 7th is. Personally I can't see it getting worse, and after playing AoS, I doubt it will be. I'm very optimistic.

 Galas wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gamgee wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm not for nerfing Tau to the ground. I'm for making them balanced. They are not balanced at the moment. That doesn't mean making them S2 AP- pulse rifles and suchlike - it means making sure they can actually be threatened by most threats in the game.

Didn't in the last major Tournament, Tau only get like mid ranks overall?

Renegades dominated tho

Over two years of play a Tau player finally made the top 10 took 7th at this years LVO. The first major tournament win for the faction. Funnily enough the only in meta thing he used was Riptide Wing. Other than that he used a fairly anti-meta list. He had four skyrays and only one stormsurge. There have been some minor wins here and there at smaller ITC tournaments, but it's an incredibly low number. Top lists this year was chaos deamons with magnus who had two of the top 8 spots. Then an eldar player, a super friends death star (space marines), and I forget. Check out blood of kittens even shows their lists. An interesting thing to note a primary detachment of Dark Eldar placed 9th place with only a minor amount of Eldar in his list. That dude is amazing. The only other time Tau dominate are the big no holds barred once in awhile style games because of the Ta'uanr. However regular play it is banned since it's basically a titan.

Nothing in this thread that I've seen has given me any faith that these are anything but scrub tier players who are just butt hurt and taking it out on the Tau instead of getting mad at GW and asking for buffs.

Edit
Except Traditio he cool. He reasonable even if he doesn't like the Tau.

Edit
Well congratulations Vak. You must have some nice people there. Doesn't solve my problem that they don't play Tau players. As a matter of fact I know one other dude who collects Tau and he has a lot of problems getting games. They tolerate him more since he has been there for so long (founding member of the group kinda guy) and also has an IG army. Even the store owner doesn't want to play with the 40k crowd here anymore and has sold off everything he had. It's a right sad state. I'm sure there's decent players in my town somewhere, but I can't find them. I sometimes regret getting into the hobby. I see shitposting on the internet like in this thread and laugh it off as impossible, but then it happens to me. I too once had faith humanity Vak. I thought it was ridiculous when I heard stories online about Tau discrimination. Who could take a dumb game of toy plastic soldiers so seriously, but the answer is a lot of people.

Gamgee, I can understand your rage. The tau hate on internet can be tiresome after years of reading it. But calling people buthurtts doesn't help. Keep 1# please. Just relax, this is a game at the end of the day.
The answer to people calling the obvious OP things of Tau (Riptide Wing, Stormsurge) is not "git gud". But I can agree that I have seen here some people that just don't want to change their tactics to take down a opponent.

And after many years of warhammer and warhammer40k I have seen that many times. I understand, models are expensive, and changing your list and army is not a thing that you can do from day to day. But I have encounter many many people that just don't want to change their playstile, ignoring the oponent they face, and then they are destroyed by some oponents that don't are really OP, just have a army that they don't know how to play against.
Is more easy to call things "OP OMG CHANGE TAU MONODIMENSIONAL THEY ARE BORING!" that recognise our own lack of tactical skill.

But, before anyone get offended by this, Tau have some OP things, thats a fact. Not many really because 80% of the unit roster is quasi useless, but what they have OP, is very OP. But really, you can see the same with the Flyrant spam, and they don't receive the same hate, or the hate in the same way.
People say "Make Tyranid viable again, and nerf the Flyrant spam buffing the rest of the codex!"
When people talk about the Tau they don't say "Make the rest of the codex viable and keep them fluffy, and balance Stormsurge and Riptides, and eliminate Riptide Wing!". No. You keep earing "Tau are just booring, their style/fluff/gameplay/game mechanic is just unfun and don't fit with 40k. Make them something that they don't are so they enter what I think should be 40k!"

And, in your history about Tau discrimination...

Spoiler:

Lucky, my group is very cool and 100% narrative driven. But years ago, in a vacation trip to another city, I bringed my 1850 tau list, even without Riptides! And just saying that I played Tau make all the 6 players in the store look at me put condescending faces to me. I ended playing with a child, givin him 500 points of my force to use in a kind of "demo" game.

Thanks. There are definitely a few things op with Tau, but like you said it's only a small amount of things. Perhaps someday I'll find open minded players like yourself out there somewhere. Hopefully you don't ever have to experience what I do. Hopefully no one of any army does.

I've tried every ba list scheme other than dread party due to lack of lucius pods. Threre is no adapting to tau for the boys in red right now. It's hard when your codex has no miscosted units to spam and abuse.

All that crying about Tau... Nerf their ability to ignore cover and give riptides and stormsurges proper points costs and they are totally fine. Still not getting the hate towards them. Probably other people don't play maelstrom missions where you can easily concentrate on your objectives. Unlike against Necrons it's easy to fulfil all the "kill X" objectives against them, as Tau are really squishy. If you can't kill units with T4/3+, or T3/4+ I can't help you.

It's easy to win maelstrom if your opponent has no models left. But yes, proper costing on the large suits would go very far to help.

I actually have an easier time killing necrons because a much larger fraction of my army survives to assault them.