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Been following this post for a bit..

1. Why bring a knife to a gun fight in the first place...all warfare determines if you can reach out and touch someone without being touched in return is the smart thing to do.

2. When you boil the Tau down they are just the mechanics of the army's of today implanted into 40K, combined arms mutual support and increasing technology in order to achieve a fire power superiority over your opponent isn't just smart its being responsible to those under your command.

3. Tau have always been a mutual support, combined arms approach. This is their advantage, problem is a lot of people don't apply this approach to other armies always trying to have units solo stuff...

4. I find static gun lines a. boring b. unable to shape the opponent that I face the tau codex even states that a mix of both is prime as it allows you to switch between Kauyon and Mont'ka...this tactic is seen right through even down to boxing.. strike & evade.

a. The idea is to apply the correct amount of fire power on the required point of an army's centre of gravity.. i.e if your centre of gravity is close combat then i will remove your fast moving close combat units first as these pose the most threat.

b. Next is to achieve firepower supremacy and then target your heavy weapons capable of reaching out and touching me. Thing is that say you set up an engagement area in a certain area of terrain like any smart player should in order to shape my movement like any smart general would, i will take advantage of my ability to bypass that terrain through anti grav and jetpacks like any smart general would to prevent the shaping of my forces to such an extent.

c. From there I would maintain mobility supremacy by targeting transports so that I am able to strike when and where I like without much competition, I can then focus on being able to position myself in such a way that I have dominance over objectives. Tau can't just charge across the battlefield they have to provide themselves mobility corridors in order to allow continued shooting, anti-grav and JSJ assist with this but can lead to over confidence and isolation of units.

If you look at the fluff behind of the game only two armies really evolve to the changing level of warfare...Tyranids and Tau...Mankind won't invent new stuff it's heresy, chaos may seem like it's constantly changes but it's limited to what emotions are being felt so until new emotions are felt they stay the same, orks just ork, Eldar both High Elves and Dark Elves have not adapted new technology, Necrons hit their ceiling before going into statis.

Tau and tyranids have evolution and adaption built into their fluff...In warfare stagnation is death when you stop running the arms race you lose.

Mankind won't invent new stuff it's heresy,

Actually new stuff is created all the time. Funny as the meme may be but there are sections of the Mechanicus that look through new tech and approve of minor changes to STC's after some time, the issue is coming to non-mechanicus allowed changes, but several things have managed to force them through (Some space marine stuff).

chaos may seem like it's constantly changes but it's limited to what emotions are being felt so until new emotions are felt they stay the same,

The heck kind of argument is this? Dark Mechanicus tends towards making new things for war and shoving daemons in things, but you will have some new changes here and there.. Even if it's horrific ones like the Daemoncubla, Fabius Bile's genetic technology constantly advances and things like the Defiler and Dinosaur Friends are advances in Daemon/Mankind Technology.

orks just ork,

Actually the Orks have been creating new technology thanks to the great Ork genius Orkimedes. Creating powerful teleportation tech that's actually bringing them throughout the galaxy bypassing many Imperial areas to strike. It's also said that in the golden days of the beasts that their technology had hit a true peak back when the full Waaagh! but thanks to being destroyed there hasn't been any true genius rising up yet because of the scattered WAAAGH!

Eldar both High Elves and Dark Elves have not adapted new technology

Dark Eldar Haemonculi seem to disagree with this statement.. Eldar... yeah.

Necrons hit their ceiling before going into statis.

Also yeah.

Talamare wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm not for nerfing Tau to the ground. I'm for making them balanced. They are not balanced at the moment. That doesn't mean making them S2 AP- pulse rifles and suchlike - it means making sure they can actually be threatened by most threats in the game.

Didn't in the last major Tournament, Tau only get like mid ranks overall?

Renegades dominated tho

In Tournaments, maybe so. However, in a game wherein neither player is outright trying to bring netlists and be ultra-competitive, Tau are rather effective, due to a strong shooting potential across their army generally. They don't need to minmax or spam certain tactics if their neutral list is good as it is.
Again, I'm not saying they're ULTRAOMG powerful. They're beatable, they aren't horrendous, barring a few units. However, they are undoubtedly a strong codex, especially compared to Dark Eldar, Orks, Blood Angels, CSM, Harlequins, Imperial Guard, etc etc

Gamgee wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm not for nerfing Tau to the ground. I'm for making them balanced. They are not balanced at the moment. That doesn't mean making them S2 AP- pulse rifles and suchlike - it means making sure they can actually be threatened by most threats in the game.

Didn't in the last major Tournament, Tau only get like mid ranks overall?

Renegades dominated tho

Over two years of play a Tau player finally made the top 10 took 7th at this years LVO. The first major tournament win for the faction. Funnily enough the only in meta thing he used was Riptide Wing. Other than that he used a fairly anti-meta list. He had four skyrays and only one stormsurge. There have been some minor wins here and there at smaller ITC tournaments, but it's an incredibly low number. Top lists this year was chaos deamons with magnus who had two of the top 8 spots. Then an eldar player, a super friends death star (space marines), and I forget. Check out blood of kittens even shows their lists. An interesting thing to note a primary detachment of Dark Eldar placed 9th place with only a minor amount of Eldar in his list. That dude is amazing. The only other time Tau dominate are the big no holds barred once in awhile style games because of the Ta'uanr. However regular play it is banned since it's basically a titan.

Nothing in this thread that I've seen has given me any faith that these are anything but scrub tier players who are just butt hurt and taking it out on the Tau instead of getting mad at GW and asking for buffs.

Edit
Except Traditio he cool. He reasonable even if he doesn't like the Tau.

Edit
Well congratulations Vak. You must have some nice people there. Doesn't solve my problem that they don't play Tau players. As a matter of fact I know one other dude who collects Tau and he has a lot of problems getting games. They tolerate him more since he has been there for so long (founding member of the group kinda guy) and also has an IG army. Even the store owner doesn't want to play with the 40k crowd here anymore and has sold off everything he had. It's a right sad state. I'm sure there's decent players in my town somewhere, but I can't find them. I sometimes regret getting into the hobby. I see shitposting on the internet like in this thread and laugh it off as impossible, but then it happens to me. I too once had faith humanity Vak. I thought it was ridiculous when I heard stories online about Tau discrimination. Who could take a dumb game of toy plastic soldiers so seriously, but the answer is a lot of people.

I'm just going to say, that's more rule 1 coming into play there - "scrub tier players"? Not exactly polite.

I'm hardly butthurt. Hell, Tau is the army I'm actually going to start once I finish off my current projects. I like the faction, their aesthetic, their lore, aspects of their gameplay. However, much as I like them, I'm not going to pretend they're perfect. They're not the worst, but they're not the paragon of balance. If that makes me "scrub tier", then I really have nothing left to say.

Gamgee wrote:

 Galas wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gamgee wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm not for nerfing Tau to the ground. I'm for making them balanced. They are not balanced at the moment. That doesn't mean making them S2 AP- pulse rifles and suchlike - it means making sure they can actually be threatened by most threats in the game.

Didn't in the last major Tournament, Tau only get like mid ranks overall?

Renegades dominated tho

Over two years of play a Tau player finally made the top 10 took 7th at this years LVO. The first major tournament win for the faction. Funnily enough the only in meta thing he used was Riptide Wing. Other than that he used a fairly anti-meta list. He had four skyrays and only one stormsurge. There have been some minor wins here and there at smaller ITC tournaments, but it's an incredibly low number. Top lists this year was chaos deamons with magnus who had two of the top 8 spots. Then an eldar player, a super friends death star (space marines), and I forget. Check out blood of kittens even shows their lists. An interesting thing to note a primary detachment of Dark Eldar placed 9th place with only a minor amount of Eldar in his list. That dude is amazing. The only other time Tau dominate are the big no holds barred once in awhile style games because of the Ta'uanr. However regular play it is banned since it's basically a titan.

Nothing in this thread that I've seen has given me any faith that these are anything but scrub tier players who are just butt hurt and taking it out on the Tau instead of getting mad at GW and asking for buffs.

Edit
Except Traditio he cool. He reasonable even if he doesn't like the Tau.

Edit
Well congratulations Vak. You must have some nice people there. Doesn't solve my problem that they don't play Tau players. As a matter of fact I know one other dude who collects Tau and he has a lot of problems getting games. They tolerate him more since he has been there for so long (founding member of the group kinda guy) and also has an IG army. Even the store owner doesn't want to play with the 40k crowd here anymore and has sold off everything he had. It's a right sad state. I'm sure there's decent players in my town somewhere, but I can't find them. I sometimes regret getting into the hobby. I see shitposting on the internet like in this thread and laugh it off as impossible, but then it happens to me. I too once had faith humanity Vak. I thought it was ridiculous when I heard stories online about Tau discrimination. Who could take a dumb game of toy plastic soldiers so seriously, but the answer is a lot of people.

Gamgee, I can understand your rage. The tau hate on internet can be tiresome after years of reading it. But calling people buthurtts doesn't help. Keep 1# please. Just relax, this is a game at the end of the day.
The answer to people calling the obvious OP things of Tau (Riptide Wing, Stormsurge) is not "git gud". But I can agree that I have seen here some people that just don't want to change their tactics to take down a opponent.

And after many years of warhammer and warhammer40k I have seen that many times. I understand, models are expensive, and changing your list and army is not a thing that you can do from day to day. But I have encounter many many people that just don't want to change their playstile, ignoring the oponent they face, and then they are destroyed by some oponents that don't are really OP, just have a army that they don't know how to play against.
Is more easy to call things "OP OMG CHANGE TAU MONODIMENSIONAL THEY ARE BORING!" that recognise our own lack of tactical skill.

But, before anyone get offended by this, Tau have some OP things, thats a fact. Not many really because 80% of the unit roster is quasi useless, but what they have OP, is very OP. But really, you can see the same with the Flyrant spam, and they don't receive the same hate, or the hate in the same way.
People say "Make Tyranid viable again, and nerf the Flyrant spam buffing the rest of the codex!"
When people talk about the Tau they don't say "Make the rest of the codex viable and keep them fluffy, and balance Stormsurge and Riptides, and eliminate Riptide Wing!". No. You keep earing "Tau are just booring, their style/fluff/gameplay/game mechanic is just unfun and don't fit with 40k. Make them something that they don't are so they enter what I think should be 40k!"

And, in your history about Tau discrimination...

Spoiler:

Lucky, my group is very cool and 100% narrative driven. But years ago, in a vacation trip to another city, I bringed my 1850 tau list, even without Riptides! And just saying that I played Tau make all the 6 players in the store look at me put condescending faces to me. I ended playing with a child, givin him 500 points of my force to use in a kind of "demo" game.

Thanks. There are definitely a few things op with Tau, but like you said it's only a small amount of things. Perhaps someday I'll find open minded players like yourself out there somewhere. Hopefully you don't ever have to experience what I do. Hopefully no one of any army does.

Spoiler:

I'm just going to pick out quotes here:
"...OP OMG CHANGE TAU MONODIMENSIONAL THEY ARE BORING!"
"Tau are just booring..."
"...their style/fluff/gameplay/game mechanic is just unfun..."
"...don't fit with 40k. Make them something that they don't are so they enter what I think should be 40k!"
"Tau have some OP things, thats a fact..."
"...Not many really because 80% of the unit roster is quasi useless..."
"...but what they have OP, is very OP"
"There are definitely a few things op with Tau"

Out of all those points, which of those do I support and am in favour of?
In fact, I'll put a list of them in spoilers:


I have no hatred to Tau. I like the faction. They're not the least balanced, but they're not perfect. They are a powerful army, and especially in the context given (which I all I've based my points on, for the record), they are very strong against Orks. That's all I'm saying. And I quote "they're not perfectly balanced, and not the paragon of balance this game should aspire to". In fact, you even say so ("There are definitely a few things op with Tau"), which I guess answers my as-of-yet unanswered question: "Do you honestly believe that Tau are the single most balanced army in 40k? Asking without any malice, is that your opinion?"

Why do you label me as "butthurt" "scrub tier" "discriminatory" and "dumbass" all the same?

I am gonna say that I love tau, they were the first models I ever saw. The only reason I don't play them is cause of their one dimensionalness. I want an army that can shoot and do assault, maybe not at the same time, but one that has options. What I love about tau is their inclusion of other races or tech to fill their voids, so im hoping something like this happens

 Vryce wrote:

Tau have always been one dimensional in design. They were introduced with the idea that they, as a species, found close combat to be an anathema to their way of war. So, they had their allies, the Kroot, for that. Unfortunately, they were horribly designed for it. They had no save, no real 'combat' ability, and had Rapid Fire weapons. At best, they were a screening unit. Tau have had shooting as their bread and butter for ~16yrs now. The basic rules have just come to a position that drastically highlights this particular way of war. And of course, the codex writers jumped the proverbial shark, as it were, when writing their 6th/7th ed codeci.

In fact, Tau lore explicitly mentions that they are interested mostly on ally races who can be used to support their own way of war, rather than someone who would do the "dirty close combat fighting" for them. Kroot were primarily shooty infantry who just happened to be better at close combat than Fire Warriors. In fact point-per-point, their shooting was more powerful than Fire Warriors. Vespid, of course, are not great in assault either. That said, it was still disappointing and totally against the lore how Kroot close combat abilities were nerfed below to that of Fire Warriors in 6th Edition.

As for "Tau hate", they are designed to be antagonists, and thus hated, their design is just more clever and subtle than Chaos or Tyranids. They are role-reversal from typical scifi-cliche human-alien dynamic. They "out-human" the humans, so of course humans find them annoying. It's pretty brilliant when you think about it.

Sgt_Smudge, I was not adressing those assertions to you specifically, but I think you have confuse me with Gamgee because you quoted me but then you talk to Gamgee. Or my english understanding is failing me, thats another posibility
Other posters had used literally the phrases I used, but not you!

 Galas wrote:
Sgt_Smudge, I was not adressing those assertions to you specifically, but I think you have confuse me with Gamgee because you quoted me but then you talk to Gamgee. Or my english understanding is failing me, thats another posibility
Other posters had used literally the phrases I used, but not you!

Nah, I had no intent of directing that at you, no worries. Your point is absolutely fine, and I agree with it, maybe except on the "80% of Tau units being quasi-useless" but otherwise it's completely solid.

I just used your quotations because Gamgee was using them as support to say that people are *insert derogatory term here* because they do/not not good those views, and that, seeing as I never used those terms, I seem to be tarred with the brush of *derogatory term*. I was just after clarity, nothing on your part!

Backfire wrote:

As for "Tau hate", they are designed to be antagonists, and thus hated, their design is just more clever and subtle than Chaos or Tyranids. They are role-reversal from typical scifi-cliche human-alien dynamic. They "out-human" the humans, so of course humans find them annoying. It's pretty brilliant when you think about it.

Are they? I thought they were one of the good guys, possibly even more so than IoM at times

 SHUPPET wrote:

Backfire wrote:

As for "Tau hate", they are designed to be antagonists, and thus hated, their design is just more clever and subtle than Chaos or Tyranids. They are role-reversal from typical scifi-cliche human-alien dynamic. They "out-human" the humans, so of course humans find them annoying. It's pretty brilliant when you think about it.

Are they? I thought they were one of the good guys, possibly even more so than IoM at times

At the risk of running OT, there are really no 'good guy' races in 40k. Everything is a graduating scale of 'bad guys'. We can take this to PM or start another thread about it, however if you wish. Lets not derail the thread w/ the good guy/bad guy topic.

 Vryce wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Backfire wrote:

As for "Tau hate", they are designed to be antagonists, and thus hated, their design is just more clever and subtle than Chaos or Tyranids. They are role-reversal from typical scifi-cliche human-alien dynamic. They "out-human" the humans, so of course humans find them annoying. It's pretty brilliant when you think about it.

Are they? I thought they were one of the good guys, possibly even more so than IoM at times

At the risk of running OT, there are really no 'good guy' races in 40k. Everything is a graduating scale of 'bad guys'. We can take this to PM or start another thread about it, however if you wish. Lets not derail the thread w/ the good guy/bad guy topic.

just asking

Backfire wrote:


As for "Tau hate", they are designed to be antagonists, and thus hated, their design is just more clever and subtle than Chaos or Tyranids. They are role-reversal from typical scifi-cliche human-alien dynamic. They "out-human" the humans, so of course humans find them annoying. It's pretty brilliant when you think about it.

And to add insult to injury, the Tau are doing it the communist way

As far as them being the good guys of 40k, they are probably the ones who can actually get away with that title. Sure, they are expanding aggressively, but at least they give other races the opportunity to avoid total annihilation.

I've always liked the idea that the Tau are far more insidious than it first appears. They aren't in your face "evil" like chaos, or utterly brutal like the Imperium, but are more "whisper in you ear and make you lose who you are" kinda creepy.

 Hollow wrote:
I've always liked the idea that the Tau are far more insidious than it first appears. They aren't in your face "evil" like chaos, or utterly brutal like the Imperium, but are more "whisper in you ear and make you lose who you are" kinda creepy.

Yeah 'far more insidious than it first appears' is my favourite way of looking at it.

They're a totalitarian oligarchy founded on the principle that the universe would be better off if it followed their philosophy, which just so happens to place their race in charge of everyone else. All of this 'come join the greater good, the Tau Empire is really nice' reeks of propaganda.

Just think of the publicity places like communist China and Korea put out. On the official channels it's very little other than how excellent their countries are and how nice it is to live in them, all the while keeping the truth of the outside world hidden from their restricted and oppressed population, and the truth of how oppressive their regime is hidden from those who might join it.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Backfire wrote:
As for "Tau hate", they are designed to be antagonists, and thus hated, their design is just more clever and subtle than Chaos or Tyranids. They are role-reversal from typical scifi-cliche human-alien dynamic. They "out-human" the humans, so of course humans find them annoying. It's pretty brilliant when you think about it.

Are they? I thought they were one of the good guys, possibly even more so than IoM at times

Well think about it. Tau are physically not very strong, short-lived, dynamic, adaptable, tolerant of many other cultures, technologically innovative, totally ignorant of Galaxy's dark secrets, preach their naive ideology to everyone...

It's pretty much all Star Trek/B5 human clichés, but projected to a non-human xeno race.

I don't necessarily think they are the biggest fans of other cultures. They are using them because it allows for faster expansion. The new map of the galaxy shows how much they grown in what is a very short period of time. Crushing every tom dick and harry you come across like the IOM has would mean it would be thousands of years before they had a half decent sized empire.

I think people exagerate the Grimdark of the Tau Empire because they don't like how "good" they are. But as always, the fluff is normally contradictory.

Reading the Tau Codex, even the more grimdark of 7th and 6th edition, you can see how they threat with respect other races like Gue'vesa and Kroot, and without letting them "govern" the Empire (Because not even Tau can lead. The leaders are the Ethereals) they are threated as full citizens, taking care of their welfare and wellness. The Tau RESPECT the Kroot. Is not subyugation, or using them as a tools. They respect them as Allies and a valuable Race and "Friends". And even they take care of the Humans that join the Tau Empire, givin them new homes in the internal Septs of the Tau empire to protect them from the Imperium (And thats in the codex, I'm not inventing anything)

Then you have the Farsight Enclaves Codex where the Ethereals are depicted as moustache twirling villains, but even then, only the Ethereals are the bad guys. But they aren't really bad, because the "Mental control" that they use in others Tau affect them too.
Theres a history where a Daemon try to corrupt an Ethereal (Or it was Dark Eldar?) and they just can't, because the Ethereal is just as convinced of the "Greater Good" as all the others.
But even putting asside the Ethereals, the rest of the Empire in general is well loaded. Obviously that they kill people. Obviously that they make wars. Thats inevitable. But they are the most reasonable race out there.

But as this is OT, I will not continue, I just want to give other perspective to the "The Tau are pure propaganda and they are totalitarian communist!"

 Hollow wrote:
I've always liked the idea that the Tau are far more insidious than it first appears. They aren't in your face "evil" like chaos, or utterly brutal like the Imperium, but are more "whisper in you ear and make you lose who you are" kinda creepy.

I always preferred the naively innocent approach that the tau first released with (IIRC) - The presence of a race which thinks "sure, they seem nice" when dealing with the dark eldar (and subsequent shocked surprise when they see the results of their cultural exchange programme) makes the rest of the universe seem that much darker. IMO, the tau didn't diminish the grimdark of 40k, they enhanced it.

 hippyjr wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
I've always liked the idea that the Tau are far more insidious than it first appears. They aren't in your face "evil" like chaos, or utterly brutal like the Imperium, but are more "whisper in you ear and make you lose who you are" kinda creepy.

I always preferred the naively innocent approach that the tau first released with (IIRC) - The presence of a race which thinks "sure, they seem nice" when dealing with the dark elder (and subsequent shocked surprise when they see the results of their cultural exchange programme) makes the rest of the universe seem that much darker. IMO, the tau didn't diminish the grimdark of 40k, they enhanced it.

Exactly my vision of the Tau.

 hippyjr wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
I've always liked the idea that the Tau are far more insidious than it first appears. They aren't in your face "evil" like chaos, or utterly brutal like the Imperium, but are more "whisper in you ear and make you lose who you are" kinda creepy.

I always preferred the naively innocent approach that the tau first released with (IIRC) - The presence of a race which thinks "sure, they seem nice" when dealing with the dark elder (and subsequent shocked surprise when they see the results of their cultural exchange programme) makes the rest of the universe seem that much darker. IMO, the tau didn't diminish the grimdark of 40k, they enhanced it.

I like it this way, too. The tiny glimmer of light only serves to highlight the darkness around it. You cannot have shadow without light, after all.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 hippyjr wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
I've always liked the idea that the Tau are far more insidious than it first appears. They aren't in your face "evil" like chaos, or utterly brutal like the Imperium, but are more "whisper in you ear and make you lose who you are" kinda creepy.

I always preferred the naively innocent approach that the tau first released with (IIRC) - The presence of a race which thinks "sure, they seem nice" when dealing with the dark elder (and subsequent shocked surprise when they see the results of their cultural exchange programme) makes the rest of the universe seem that much darker. IMO, the tau didn't diminish the grimdark of 40k, they enhanced it.

I like it this way, too. The tiny glimmer of light only serves to highlight the darkness around it. You cannot have shadow without light, after all.

True, but isn't it just so 40k if even the glimmer of light in this dark universe is still a fascist totalitarian oligarchy?

It's better than the alternative...but it's hardly 'good'.

The two interpretations can live in harmony if you like. They can be a cold-war propaganda state...that's still naive about the true nature of the horrors of the universe. They're like Soviet Russia setting out to unite all of the Eastern Bloc countries under the banner of Communism...except they don't realise yet that most of the Eastern Bloc countries are actually daemons that want to bathe in their blood.

Noble cause. Totalitarian propaganda state. Unaware that the universe is filled with psychopaths. Perfect

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

The two interpretations can live in harmony if you like. They can be a cold-war propaganda state...that's still naive about the true nature of the horrors of the universe. They're like Soviet Russia setting out to unite all of the Eastern Bloc countries under the banner of Communism...except they don't realise yet that most of the Eastern Bloc countries are actually daemons that want to bathe in their blood.

Noble cause. Totalitarian propaganda state. Unaware that the universe is filled with psychopaths. Perfect

Replace 'Eastern Bloc' with Afghanistan there and you got a good analogy