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Lord Kragan wrote:

It hasn't been nerfed. Last time I checked, it had a 3''' range. Now it has 9''. You don't need to spread out your boyz due to lack of blasts so you can easily make 2 blocks of 20 boyz fit within the KFF's range without breaaking a sweat. It's buffed.

I think its a 6" range of KFF in 7th ed effects models under it. ( I have hardly used it so I'm not so familiar with the rules too). I heard from someone its 9" in 8th Ed but entire unit has to be under it to get the save... some will say nerf some say buff it will all shake out in the first few games.

Lord Kragan wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Moolet wrote:

Franarok wrote:
But they nerfed the doktor feel no pain

Heh, this is still too painful for me... I've blocked it out from my memory =) .

Because you could take Feel No pain against destroyer weapons or 8+ strength ones, right?

I think you've been misinformed, you could not take FnP vs. either of those types of damage.

I think you really new this, right? Anyhow, please don't be so condescending.

I didn't mind my opponent packing those kind of weapons (my most common opponent was CW:Eldar). It didn't bother me as I was always happy for people to direct that kind of fire the squads that I gave FnP to. I'd happily laugh at the thoughts of my boyz being vaporised by such firepower, ironically they probably died so fast they too felt no pain.

 Moolet wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

It hasn't been nerfed. Last time I checked, it had a 3''' range. Now it has 9''. You don't need to spread out your boyz due to lack of blasts so you can easily make 2 blocks of 20 boyz fit within the KFF's range without breaaking a sweat. It's buffed.

I think its a 6" range of KFF in 7th ed effects models under it. ( I have hardly used it so I'm not so familiar with the rules too). I heard from someone its 9" in 8th Ed but entire unit has to be under it to get the save... some will say nerf some say buff it will all shake out in the first few games.

My bad, did double check. That was the Mechanicum/DAngels equivalent. Still, I consider it a buff since you no longer need to spread.

 koooaei wrote:
I don't like the fact that you never get cover if you're trying to play aggressively.

Just house roule cover to 7TH (a model in cover gets +1 to its armor save).

keeping a unit in 9" of the big mek means it will likely may hold 3 boyz groups of 30... not horrible but keeping them in 9 inches will be problematic while trying to reach goals, and when you need to hold multiple objectives they will be rough. as it will probably not be possible to cover them all. I really hipe they did not just get rid of eavy armor, i used to get a few small squads with it as objective holders, they were better than Gretchen and posed a threat if things came to tke things. 10 ard boys w/ nob w/ big choppa were intimidating even to a 5 man tac marine squad

 G00fySmiley wrote:
keeping a unit in 9" of the big mek means it will likely may hold 3 boyz groups of 30... not horrible but keeping them in 9 inches will be problematic while trying to reach goals, and when you need to hold multiple objectives they will be rough. as it will probably not be possible to cover them all. I really hipe they did not just get rid of eavy armor, i used to get a few small squads with it as objective holders, they were better than Gretchen and posed a threat if things came to tke things. 10 ard boys w/ nob w/ big choppa were intimidating even to a 5 man tac marine squad

IMO, the KFF appeal is a shield against 1st turn grief. Maybe also a bit of a boon on the second turn as you move up the table. After that ANYTHING it manages to do is just gravy. You can get an entire mechanized list inside of its bubble to protect against first turn shooting, add in ramshackle and FNP from the pain-boy and you're pretty assured to not lose any of you transports until they've at least done part of their jobs.

Looks like eavy armour's gone. I'm planning to ding them a polite email having a wee grumble about it. You never know, if enough people do similar, with New GW™ we might get a data sheet for Ardboyz down the line in WD or something.

Played a couple games of 8th this weekend, here are some ork thoughts:

Walkers are still terribad. I'll still use them. I had some bad luck with my first game with them, but at least they got 'ere we go.

As the OP said, boyz die way more easily than before, mostly due to the way cover works (or doesn't, rather). What was generally a 4+ save is now a 5+ at best, often a 6+.

Painboy is........kind of eh. 3" range isn't great, and neither is 6+ FNP. But it's slightly better than nothing?

Nob with waaaagh banner is amazing. But protip: Don't charge him into combat, leave him out for cheerleading.

Dakkajet was surprisingly solid.

Battlewagon was more durable than I expected.

Morkanaut got annihilated by custodoes, but then I ripped apart a knight with big choppas. Elite infantry seems to do bad things to single models.

Warboss and ghaz were great. Though, don't ever put either in a vehicle, as their waaaagh and breaking heads abilities don't work, and are great.

Da jump is pretty fun. Though, something to keep in mind about wierdboyz - they get +1 to their psychic phase for every 10 boyz within 10" of them, and if they bust 12 for their test they POTW. So, don't put a wierdboy in the center of 60 boyz, for example, unless you expect to roll really low.

Rokkits seem great. Want to try tankbustas in a trukk.

Mek gunz were surprisingly solid. Bubblechukka is silly, but better (which isn't saying much), KMKs are still great, and smasha gun did a surprising amount of work.

SAG also performed well.

 koooaei wrote:
I don't like the fact that you never get cover if you're trying to play aggressively.

More importantly do you want cover outside of kommandos when charging into or out of cover makes your charge ranges much worse to pull off outside of ruins of course.

I see orks as being low top tier this edition. I think FW will make keep them competitive.
Zhardsnark will either be a strong warboss on bike and/or buff bikers
Mekadread should be a slightly cheaper morkanaut w kff
Buzzgrob should either help Waller lists or buff his stompa w repairs whole he's embarked.
Kustom stompa will have option for invul save, and more weapon additions such as belly gun and eye of gork increasing offense
Big trakk should be a less expensive wagon
Killtank was a beast last edition and should be still
Supakannon sjould be a better weapon for battlewagons
There is a lot of good things coming through FW.

gungo wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I don't like the fact that you never get cover if you're trying to play aggressively.

More importantly do you want cover outside of kommandos when charging into or out of cover makes your charge ranges much worse to pull off outside of ruins of course.

Yeah, I think Orks are really incentivized to eschew cover in 8th. Just go for it and be aggressive, since cover isn't going go to do much anyway.

theocracity wrote:

gungo wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I don't like the fact that you never get cover if you're trying to play aggressively.

More importantly do you want cover outside of kommandos when charging into or out of cover makes your charge ranges much worse to pull off outside of ruins of course.

Yeah, I think Orks are really incentivized to eschew cover in 8th. Just go for it and be aggressive, since cover isn't going go to do much anyway.

which translates to losing more and more models then ever before.

At least in 7th my Ork boyz would get a 5+ cover save from intervening terrain or models, now they are just SOL.

I am still trying to figure out how we got shafted so hard in this edition when we got shafted so hard last edition. If anything I was expecting some of our units to be a bit to good to compensate for how crappy they were to begin with. Nope, GW doubled down on most of those bad units and made our good units worse.

SemperMortis wrote:


I am still trying to figure out how we got shafted so hard in this edition when we got shafted so hard last edition. If anything I was expecting some of our units to be a bit to good to compensate for how crappy they were to begin with. Nope, GW doubled down on most of those bad units and made our good units worse.

I'm still trying to figure out how you're still repeating this over and over despite the people who play tested suggesting they were competative, battle reports starting to come out with orks winning, and all of us arguing against what you've said over the last few days. I mean honestly, at one point you suggested that people are being paid to lie about how good a certain flavor little plastic army men are as if they were lobbying for the petrol industry.

There are at least two orky batreps on the forums right now;

http://battle-reports.org/batrep-9/index.php - GK vs orks (orks win)
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/727637.page - SM vs orks (orks win)

as well as one or stories inside the threads about orks.

 davou wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


I am still trying to figure out how we got shafted so hard in this edition when we got shafted so hard last edition. If anything I was expecting some of our units to be a bit to good to compensate for how crappy they were to begin with. Nope, GW doubled down on most of those bad units and made our good units worse.

I'm still trying to figure out how you're still repeating this over and over despite the people who play tested suggesting they were competative, battle reports starting to come out with orks winning, and all of us arguing against what you've said over the last few days. I mean honestly, at one point you suggested that people are being paid to lie about how good a certain flavor little plastic army men are as if they were lobbying for the petrol industry.

There are at least two orky batreps on the forums right now;

http://battle-reports.org/batrep-9/index.php - GK vs orks (orks win)
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/727637.page - SM vs orks (orks win)

as well as one or stories inside the threads about orks.

OH MY GOD! 3 Battle Reports from the start of a new edition that show orks Winning! I guess I was completely Wrong! (Sarcasm)

Keep in mind those talking heads that you are putting so much faith into also said orks were going to be ok in 7th. How did that turn out?

SemperMortis wrote:


Keep in mind those talking heads that you are putting so much faith into also said orks were going to be ok in 7th. How did that turn out?

If you can show me the organizers of ITC or Nova saying orks would be fine in 7th, I will eat a hat.


and again, its not JUST three batreps... Its the only three we have for orks at the moment.

and its also a lot of disagreement to tons of what you've been saying.

and its also from the mouth of the people who spent months trying to break the game and work on balance.

SemperMortis wrote:

 davou wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


OH MY GOD! 3 Battle Reports from the start of a new edition that show orks Winning! I guess I was completely Wrong! (Sarcasm)

Keep in mind those talking heads that you are putting so much faith into also said orks were going to be ok in 7th. How did that turn out?

OH MY GOD! No Battle Reports supporting your relentless negative take!

You keep bringing up pre-release opinions about 7th for some reason, despite it's complete irrelevance to this discussion.

How many games have you played 8th ed. orks in now Semp? It's fairly easy to do with the rules leaks. Have you found them to play as you've been projecting? Let's hear some of your personal experience instead of theory-crafting trukks vs. rhinos.

 davou wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


Keep in mind those talking heads that you are putting so much faith into also said orks were going to be ok in 7th. How did that turn out?

If you can show me the organizers of ITC or Nova saying orks would be fine in 7th, I will eat a hat.


and again, its not JUST three batreps... Its the only three we have for orks at the moment.

and its also a lot of disagreement to tons of what you've been saying.

and its also from the mouth of the people who spent months trying to break the game and work on balance.

Well since you put faith in Frontline Gaming and used them to back up your opinion, heres Frontline gamings opinion on 7th edition Orks after the codex came out

"But, Orks is a big win, IMO. I was at first really bummed about Mob Rule and what it might mean, but, I see now that there are a million ways to get around it. Plus, you have so much incredible variety in Orks and the ability to make just the army you want AND to make it actually fight well, too. That is a big win and I think Orks will be a great army for the casual player, the competitive player and the hobbyist that just want to make some cool looking stuff."

So, yeah, I don't put faith in their opinions about Orkz.

And Blacksteel you make no sense. I keep bringing up pre-release 7th opinions? no I actually brought those up and pointed to how the reviewers were all positive about the Ork release and how it would do in 7th. Thats completely relevant because guess what? THAT IS EXACTLY WHATS HAPPENING AGAIN! Jesus thats a hard point to miss.

How many 8th edition games have I played yet? None, my area won't be playing 8th for at least another 2 weeks. So just like the rest of you I am using speculation based on the limited information available, it just so happens my opinion differs widely from yours and Davou and a handful of others. Of course I have been playing orks for a long time and I am now used to GW screwing the Ork faction as hard as possible so I will openly admit I am jaded. But from what I can see so far Orks aren't going to be doing well this edition, just like last edition.

gungo wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I don't like the fact that you never get cover if you're trying to play aggressively.

More importantly do you want cover outside of kommandos when charging into or out of cover makes your charge ranges much worse to pull off outside of ruins of course.

I see orks as being low top tier this edition. I think FW will make keep them competitive.
Zhardsnark will either be a strong warboss on bike and/or buff bikers
Mekadread should be a slightly cheaper morkanaut w kff
Buzzgrob should either help Waller lists or buff his stompa w repairs whole he's embarked.
Kustom stompa will have option for invul save, and more weapon additions such as belly gun and eye of gork increasing offense
Big trakk should be a less expensive wagon
Killtank was a beast last edition and should be still
Supakannon sjould be a better weapon for battlewagons
There is a lot of good things coming through FW.

Man, that is a lot of conjecture in the above. I wouldn't expect much from FW until we know what we have. In particular, I would expect a big hit to buzzgob's stompa, at least in terms of points.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:


Man, that is a lot of conjecture in the above. I wouldn't expect much from FW until we know what we have. In particular, I would expect a big hit to buzzgob's stompa, at least in terms of points.

I would agree with you. Also, I would expect Zhadsnark to probably get hit with the Nerf hammer as well, if he even gets reprinted.

SemperMortis wrote:

Well since you put faith in Frontline Gaming and used them to back up your opinion, heres Frontline gamings opinion on 7th edition Orks after the codex came out

"But, Orks is a big win, IMO. I was at first really bummed about Mob Rule and what it might mean, but, I see now that there are a million ways to get around it. Plus, you have so much incredible variety in Orks and the ability to make just the army you want AND to make it actually fight well, too. That is a big win and I think Orks will be a great army for the casual player, the competitive player and the hobbyist that just want to make some cool looking stuff."

alright alright; I will start looking for a hat to eat

but to be fair, when 7th came out, the first few codex seemed to suggest that the eddition was going to scale down the creep.... THEN we got the necron dex

Edit : https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/2121 - another game where orks won (they tabled space marines)

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

gungo wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I don't like the fact that you never get cover if you're trying to play aggressively.

More importantly do you want cover outside of kommandos when charging into or out of cover makes your charge ranges much worse to pull off outside of ruins of course.

I see orks as being low top tier this edition. I think FW will make keep them competitive.
Zhardsnark will either be a strong warboss on bike and/or buff bikers
Mekadread should be a slightly cheaper morkanaut w kff
Buzzgrob should either help Waller lists or buff his stompa w repairs whole he's embarked.
Kustom stompa will have option for invul save, and more weapon additions such as belly gun and eye of gork increasing offense
Big trakk should be a less expensive wagon
Killtank was a beast last edition and should be still
Supakannon sjould be a better weapon for battlewagons
There is a lot of good things coming through FW.

Man, that is a lot of conjecture in the above. I wouldn't expect much from FW until we know what we have. In particular, I would expect a big hit to buzzgob's stompa, at least in terms of points.

not a lot of conjecture and I didn't make much conjecture on costs.
Zhardsnark is already a warboss on bike, considering he is a special character he likely has additional rules then a warboss on bike, ( I doubt he makes warbikers troops which would be a nerf) However warbosses on bikes are MATHEMATICALLY the most cost efficient and best option I am sure he will cost more though.
Mekadread is a smaller walker that HAS a KFF not much conjecture there.
Buzzgrob stompa is just a kustom stompa whether the rules exist still is conjecture but I doubt they get rid of it since they have a model
IN WHICH CASE kustom stompas have an option for void shield which in 8th edition is turned into an invulnerable save, The void shield generator for instance is a 4++. The kustom stompa adds more weapon options with the belly gun and gaze of mork being ADDITIONAL weapon options on top of the arm weapons.... this is going to cost a crap ton... HOWEVER it is customizable so you can take what you want.
The big trakk is litteraly a bigger trukk but smaller than a battlewagon and can take mek gunz as weapons this is literally not conjecture but its stat sheet.
The supakannon is literally bigger than the kill kannon.
The killtank has a shitton of guns and is massive. Its probably overpriced but it was one of our best tanks last edition.

Not a whole lot of conjecture since these are models forgeworld makes. Some might cost ALOT. Some will cost less and fill in gaps in an army we need fulfilled like cheaper, mobile durable KFF's. The forgeworld index list is mostly out and all these models are in the index. The rules we will see, but I suspect some key options from us for these which were already some of our most competitve options last edition

I am wondering how they will handle the lifta droppas in 8th. I have a stompa modeled for one and there is nothing like throwing a land raider at another land raider to blow up the 2nd one to warm the heart of gork and mork

add

another thought on reading it, I am fairly sure I must be missing something, but maybe I am wrong. KFF big mek embarks on a battlewagon. is there a reason the 9 inches would nto be from the battlewagon or as i assume last edition it would not, and given no embarking special rule does this mean embarked kff mek would not provide a save ... wait nevermind i was reading the big mek on a bike. it is on the regular mek just the vehicle

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I am wondering how they will handle the lifta droppas in 8th. I have a stompa modeled for one and there is nothing like throwing a land raider at another land raider to blow up the 2nd one to warm the heart of gork and mork

add

another thought on reading it, I am fairly sure I must be missing something, but maybe I am wrong. KFF big mek embarks on a battlewagon. is there a reason the 9 inches would nto be from the battlewagon or as i assume last edition it would not, and given no embarking special rule does this mean embarked kff mek would not provide a save ... wait nevermind i was reading the big mek on a bike. it is on the regular mek just the vehicle

models don't count as on the table when embarked. The kff specifically allows you to affect the vehicle he is embarked on

 wtwlf123 wrote:
I'm more optimistic about some level of success for my Orks than I have been since 5th edition. I think 8th offers quite a bit to help them out compared to 6th and 7th.

It does. Ignore the haters. Orks were terrifying in 5th using a 4th ed codex.

I don't do BatReps, but I have yet NOT gotten Boyz in CC by turn 2. And with rare exceptions (Nids so far) the best cover is to be in CC, you are practically immune to the shooting phase. (If they have pistols that's about it.) Between Move, Advance, Charge, Pile In, and Consolidate it is really quite easy to encircle small specialized units. 5 or less squads have no chance, if they have about 10 it gets hard, but that needs to be 10 after the Fight has been resolved.

Maneuver is quite important, you can deny fallbacks etc. with your faster units, your flanking units, your DS units.

Another thing, the point "value" of an unit varies quite a bit, I think they used some sort of average "value". The difference of Boyz being in an Aura or not being in an Aura is pretty big. Da Jump is better used on Grots for area denial then Boyz imo, Grots lose less "value" than Boyz being off by their own. 25 Boyz w/ Choppas, Weirdboy, Warboss combo gets you a 16" charge range, with 125 attacks to resolve, and that's if the Weirdboy and Warboss don't join in...

Speaking of Nids, right combo gives 29" charge range for GS, 31" for Gaunts, that's an either/or though... They can pretty easily get 3-5 turn 1 successful charges... Very low Vehicle counter ability though, at least in what I've seen.

KFF's are workable as moving "cover" save, but meh, not my style...

ok, so games to play tomorrow I am trying a battle wagon rush list. 3 battlewagons, and trukks maybe a few bikers including a kff bike bringing up the rear to provide cover with the bikers behind him to screen him from shots.

hoping to get more in to try a green tide with painboys and kff protection and a round without and just bringing more boyz

Guys don't worry too much about SemperMortis' complaints, for him the grass is always greener on the other side (even though we're Orks for Gork's sake! There's no one else greener!). He did the same thing for other player's ideas for improving Orks back in the Proposed Rules thread before 8th ed released, often comparing it to jetbike/grav-spam and basically using that as the standard. Until Ork boyz have 2+ saves built in, with S10 AP-6 D6 damage choppas he's not really going to be satisfied.

From the first game I've had from trying out the new rules, I'm seeing that Orks are easily in a much better place than 7th ed. We have a much better way of dealing with morale, mobz of boyz are viable again and there's few units that feel like complete duds. I haven't tried out a dred mob yet (though I aim to soon) but I'm glad its no longer bikers or mechanized infantry every day all the time now.

 Grimskul wrote:
Guys don't worry too much about SemperMortis' complaints, for him the grass is always greener on the other side (even though we're Orks for Gork's sake! There's no one else greener!). He did the same thing for other player's ideas for improving Orks back in the Proposed Rules thread before 8th ed released, often comparing it to jetbike/grav-spam and basically using that as the standard. Until Ork boyz have 2+ saves built in, with S10 AP-6 D6 damage choppas he's not really going to be satisfied.

From the first game I've had from trying out the new rules, I'm seeing that Orks are easily in a much better place than 7th ed. We have a much better way of dealing with morale, mobz of boyz are viable again and there's few units that feel like complete duds. I haven't tried out a dred mob yet (though I aim to soon) but I'm glad its no longer bikers or mechanized infantry every day all the time now.

"he did the same thing for other player's ideas for improving orks back in the proposed rules thread" yeah why is that? because every proposed idea was mentally handicapped.

I'll be happy when I can sit my orks on a table and have a fair game instead of a game of "who brought the better faction".

And funny enough, I was completely right about 7th edition and about the waaagh supplements. I was also right about how useless Flyers were going to be. So right now im batting a thousand and you and your "But were orks mehh" brethren are on 2 outs and 2 strikes.

But let me leave you with this little glimmer of hope. I am not the Omnissiah nor the emperor. I MIGHT BE WRONG! Maybe they fethed up everyone elses armies so badly that Orks by comparison are top notch. I don't know and I won't know until i try out a few tournaments. But going just off what theyve done to our units and prices for those units and then comparing them to similar units in the Space Marine codex, we are in trouble.

SemperMortis wrote:
OH MY GOD! 3 Battle Reports from the start of a new edition that show orks Winning! I guess I was completely Wrong!

Admitting you have a problem is always the first step.

 davou wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


I am still trying to figure out how we got shafted so hard in this edition when we got shafted so hard last edition. If anything I was expecting some of our units to be a bit to good to compensate for how crappy they were to begin with. Nope, GW doubled down on most of those bad units and made our good units worse.

I'm still trying to figure out how you're still repeating this over and over despite the people who play tested suggesting they were competative, battle reports starting to come out with orks winning, and all of us arguing against what you've said over the last few days. I mean honestly, at one point you suggested that people are being paid to lie about how good a certain flavor little plastic army men are as if they were lobbying for the petrol industry.

There are at least two orky batreps on the forums right now;

http://battle-reports.org/batrep-9/index.php - GK vs orks (orks win)
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/727637.page - SM vs orks (orks win)

as well as one or stories inside the threads about orks.

the battle-reports.org one is 7th edition not 8th

Guys can we just all ignore him and get on with talking about Orks, rather than having to spend half of every single page trying to refute a load of semi-informed, unrelenting complaining? He's clearly made his mind up already and loves a whinge, so I don't see the point in constantly trying to argue the toss.

I'm currently trying to work out how best to mitigate against most buffs only applying to Orks of the same clan, given that my army's currently painted up as a mix of Bad Moons, Evil Suns and Goffs. Seems like I'm going to need to paint up a few more characters from different Clans, then make sure all the same coloured lads get deployed, and operate, together.

Or just call your "clan" My Waaagh clan, which should help for most units currently...

It's not like you currently get any additional Clan benefits like Extra move on bikes, a different Psychic table, or special rules...

Don't think anyone would raise a fuss if you Waaaghed the '<clan>'