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Made in mx
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

 Flinty wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
It also says Lunar class is over three kilometres long (so presumably less than four) so that doesn't really jibe with twelve kilometre battleships...


Lunar class is a cruiser, not a battleship, so there is no conflict there.

Also on page 1 of this thread Tygre quotes Lunars as being 3.2 to 3.6km in length. All consistent so far

There are plenty of sources that put the Lunars as being much larger.

Rogue Trader Core Rulebook wrote:Lunar-class cruiser Dimensions: 5 km long, 0.8 km abeam at fins approx. Mass: 28 megatonnes approx. Crew: 95000 crew, approx. Accel: 2.5 gravities max sustainable acceleration The Lunar class cruiser makes up the backbone of Battlefleet Calixis. Its (relatively) uncomplicated design dates back to the dawn of the Imperium, and it can be constructed at worlds normally unable to build a ship of the line. Its variety of weapons batteries, lances, and torpedoes make it both a versatile combatant and dangerous foe. Most Rogue Traders remove the torpedo tubes to add more cargo space instead. Speed: 5 Manoeuvrability: +10 Detection: +10 Hull Integrity: 70 Armour: 20 Turret Rating: 2 Space: 75 SP: 60 Weapon Capacity: Prow 1, Port 2, Starboard 2

Planetkill wrote:THE RELENTLESS, A Lunar-class cruiser, warship of the most-revered Emperor's Navy, hung in silent orbit as the Imperial departure from Bahani continued apace. From the tip of its heavy prow, with armour metres thick, to the mighty engines at its stern it measured more than eight kilometres long and over a mile high.

Horus Heresy Book Three: Extermination wrote:Light Cruisers and Heavy Cruisers are medium-sized warships ranging in general terms between 4 km and 6 km in length[...].
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Well, it is pretty pointless to attempt to discuss any ship related details if even one specific class of ship can be anything from three to eight kilometres long...

   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







I just love the bit where it's km long but miles in height

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






It is actually pretty surreal that these things are not nailed down at all and every novel writer seems to be able to independently decide what the sizes are. Madness. If they don't want to have set official sizes then they should instruct the writers to avoid mentioning concrete numbers at all.

   
Made in mx
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

 Crimson wrote:
Well, it is pretty pointless to attempt to discuss any ship related details if even one specific class of ship can be anything from three to eight kilometres long...

It is even sillier than that.

My second quote is the Relentless, the same ship that in the previous page was quoted to be over 3 kilometers in length. It literally went from 8 kilometers in one story to 3 km in the next.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/04 18:51:14


 
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







Maybe it had an extremely unfortunate engagement and came home with 5km missing

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?





Fort Worth, TX

I suppose some of these authors could be proceeding from the assumption that a "Lunar Class Cruiser" is the designation for any ship with a certain set of capabilities, as opposed to being a specific ship design. Kind of like referring to a car as a "family sedan" rather than a "Ford Taurus".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/05 01:45:30


"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me."
- Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Well the newish HH book I'm reading specifically mentions ship being so fast large parts of it rarely experiences foot steps...

So large parts of ships are...well just sitting unused with rare forays for whatever reason there.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






 Crimson wrote:
It is actually pretty surreal that these things are not nailed down at all and every novel writer seems to be able to independently decide what the sizes are. Madness. If they don't want to have set official sizes then they should instruct the writers to avoid mentioning concrete numbers at all.


That stuff is the bits I skim over, generally. It's very rarely relevant.
   
Made in gb
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Scotland, but nowhere near my rulebook

Wait.

This thing is 5000x800x800m, approx. 3.2x10^9 m cubed

It weighs 28 Megatonnes, 2.8x10^10 kg

It's density is therefore 8.75 kg/m3

Steel has a density of 7850kg/m3.

This is 1/1000th the density of steel. That's properly absurd.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Only if you assume it's solid...

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in mx
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

No they are right, it is absurd.

Ships do have empty space, but not 99.9% empty space.

Even naval ships have densities above the hundreds of kilograms per cube meter(they need a density less than a thousand kilograms per cube meter, the density of water).

Basically it should be at least three OoM heavier.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/06 17:31:11


 
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







Seawise giant, when empty, would appear to.have had a density of about 82kg/cu.m. Graphite wins the engineers attention to detail prize once again

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in mx
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

Seawise Giant was an oil tanker. It was basically a giant empty box to fill with oil, which increased its weight eight times.

Very different from a warship that is supposed to have armor and weapons.
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







That was kind of my point. A.space warship with a density of.1/10 of.an empty oil.tanker seems.a bit off.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Flinty wrote:
That was kind of my point. A.space warship with a density of.1/10 of.an empty oil.tanker seems.a bit off.

Further proof that the people making these numbers up have no idea how the square cubed law works, or what the numbers they are throwing out actually mean. Anyone who says these numbers are plausible in any way is either willfully ignorant or purposely disingenuous.

I really wish that lore writers for 40k would just stop talking about numbers entirely. If they do decide to be concrete on something they should hire an engineer as a temporary consultant for some realistic numbers.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/06 19:44:56


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Graphite wrote:
Wait.

This thing is 5000x800x800m, approx. 3.2x10^9 m cubed

It weighs 28 Megatonnes, 2.8x10^10 kg

It's density is therefore 8.75 kg/m3

Steel has a density of 7850kg/m3.

This is 1/1000th the density of steel. That's properly absurd.


Not defending FFG's inflated dimensions in any way but those calculations are a bit off simply based on the shape of the ship. An Imperial cruiser is not a solid block, and is instead cruciform in shape. That width and height is inclusive of the sensor fins protruding from the hull. The actual hull proper is more like 1/3 to 1/2 that in height and width. So those above numbers include volumes of space that are outside of the ship entirely. If the height and width are only a 1/3, then the volume is reduced to a ninth.

Using Andy Chambers' BFG list scale, while maintaining aspect ratio, gives a slightly better result if one were to keep the mass constant, yielding about 366 kg/m3

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/09/06 21:44:33


 
   
Made in gb
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Scotland, but nowhere near my rulebook

Oh, yeah, they're an approximation at best, and an extremely rough one. But it does go to show that GWs numbers are generally absolutely bonkers and any engineer with a calculator will be able to hammer out something more plausible in minutes.

Hire me, GW.

I still maintain, though, that the crew numbers for an Imperial ship aren't really that demented because after a certain number of people, you run out of stuff for them to actually DO. So leaving huge tracts of your ship abandoned makes sense.

Boarding actions must be bizarre, though. You could patrol down a corridor for an hour without meeting a soul, then suddenly run across a hundred strong naval-armsman party heading the other way. You're looking to put some charges on the engine room, but out and out guerilla war in the depths of a cruiser may be a better tactic.

Wasn't that the plot of Battle for the Abyss? I've kindof blanked that book out of my mind.
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 Graphite wrote:

Hire me, GW.


You don't want that.


Believe me, i thought I wanted it once, and then I saw it, and I didn't want it anymore.

You will watch people demand that you make the crunch bad, because the fluff says the group in question sucks, so it must be bad, and making it balanced (or even adding variety) is against fluff, and therefor wrong. and if you point to new fluff found in a codex that's already been printed (Not BL because they don't count), then that codex writer sucks and is bad too.

Because the tester's headcanon is more important than game balance or improving the options available. Ah, the joys of FAQs...


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Graphite wrote:
I still maintain, though, that the crew numbers for an Imperial ship aren't really that demented because after a certain number of people, you run out of stuff for them to actually DO. So leaving huge tracts of your ship abandoned makes sense.

There is always something for crew to do. I agree that there are limited positions for actually running the ship but why have 90% of your ship uninhabited? Fill up that space with soldiers so you have a formidable defense against boarders. Hell, even have a spare 100,000 crewmen lying around doing nothing so that they can fill the positions caused by inevitable casualties. You can always find a use for a person on a ship, even if it means they sit and do nothing but train.

The spare space can also be used to make accommodations more comfortable for the existing crewmen. But having 90% of your decks not be in use is ridiculously wasteful unless you are running a skeleton crew with no means to replenish your ranks.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/09/06 22:33:43


 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

Reemmber too that (ugh) thousands of crew are required to haul each and every individual multi megatonne shell up to the breach and load it, because while autoloaders are an actual thing for voidship weapons, they're not grimdark enough to come standard.

Also remember that according to both BFG and FFG, 1/3 of the ship is the engines

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/06 23:39:55



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Graphite wrote:
Oh, yeah, they're an approximation at best, and an extremely rough one. But it does go to show that GWs numbers are generally absolutely bonkers and any engineer with a calculator will be able to hammer out something more plausible in minutes.

Hire me, GW.

I still maintain, though, that the crew numbers for an Imperial ship aren't really that demented because after a certain number of people, you run out of stuff for them to actually DO. So leaving huge tracts of your ship abandoned makes sense.

Boarding actions must be bizarre, though. You could patrol down a corridor for an hour without meeting a soul, then suddenly run across a hundred strong naval-armsman party heading the other way. You're looking to put some charges on the engine room, but out and out guerilla war in the depths of a cruiser may be a better tactic.

Wasn't that the plot of Battle for the Abyss? I've kindof blanked that book out of my mind.


I too have stated already several times that crew exist to perform tasks. Some things on an Imperial ship seem to require lots of manpower but others much less, maybe even next to none. Many of the big volume occupying black box machinery on a starship may not need anyone other than a TechPriest when the ship is in dock. During normal ship operations, the behemoth piece of machinery might just keep chugging away at its mysterious task in a deserted cavernous chamber.

As for boarding actions, very vastness of the ship makes extended guerilla operations ineffective in the timeframe of the average pitched space battle. Any boarders need to inflict significant damage and then get out. However there seems to be massive redundancy in systems as most of the BFG “critical hits” are repairable, representing rerouting of power and information flows. Truly critical areas would also be the most likely to be well manned and defended. So a boarding party doing guerilla warfare might not be able to make a significant impact on the ship.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/06 23:49:15


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 BaronIveagh wrote:
Reemmber too that (ugh) thousands of crew are required to haul each and every individual multi megatonne shell up to the breach and load it, because while autoloaders are an actual thing for voidship weapons, they're not grimdark enough to come standard.

Also remember that according to both BFG and FFG, 1/3 of the ship is the engines

Even with 90% of the larger vessels taken up with "stuff" and being completely unusable, you'd still have 90% of the remaining space uninhabited with the listed crew numbers, and with the crowded-ness levels generally portrayed in the lore. Things like bunk beds and communal quarters (which are nessecary on modern navy ships) would be laughably pointless on such a large ship... yet they still exist in the lore.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/09/07 00:57:09


 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





 BaronIveagh wrote:


Because the tester's headcanon is more important than game balance or improving the options available. Ah, the joys of FAQs...


Wait, is this legit? You did some work for GW and codice balance is decided by tester's favoritism?

“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 Wyzilla wrote:


Wait, is this legit? You did some work for GW and codice balance is decided by tester's favoritism?


I was one of the people who worked on BFG's 2010 FAQ. The idea of giving SM strike cruisers the option to swap the bombardment cannon with a str 2 lance at cost was so polarizing it caused a 72 page thread. The eventual compromise was a str 1 lance at 5 points (iirc) so that it would be 'so gakky no one would ever take it and it would be forgotten in an edition or so' to quote one tester.

This was back in 2009-2010.

All because BFG: Armada (the book, not the game) had a single throw away line in it that the IN was concerned about the Nova class frigate being too good a ship killer. Somehow this became a total ban in the Imperium on anti ship weaponry for SM.

Not sure how other GW things work, ours got swallowed up in the Specialist Games cancellation, but the BFG Rules committee went ahead and released it into the wild anyway so that the new rules could be used at Tournies, etc.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Wyzilla wrote:


Wait, is this legit? You did some work for GW and codice balance is decided by tester's favoritism?


I was one of the people who worked on BFG's 2010 FAQ. The idea of giving SM strike cruisers the option to swap the bombardment cannon with a str 2 lance at cost was so polarizing it caused a 72 page thread. The eventual compromise was a str 1 lance at 5 points (iirc) so that it would be 'so gakky no one would ever take it and it would be forgotten in an edition or so' to quote one tester.

This was back in 2009-2010.

All because BFG: Armada (the book, not the game) had a single throw away line in it that the IN was concerned about the Nova class frigate being too good a ship killer. Somehow this became a total ban in the Imperium on anti ship weaponry for SM.

Not sure how other GW things work, ours got swallowed up in the Specialist Games cancellation, but the BFG Rules committee went ahead and released it into the wild anyway so that the new rules could be used at Tournies, etc.


I always thought the lance thing was silly, Yes Space Marines having Lances on their ships was looked at poorly by the navy but that didn't mean some space faring chapters wouldn't do it.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Wyzilla wrote:


Wait, is this legit? You did some work for GW and codice balance is decided by tester's favoritism?


I was one of the people who worked on BFG's 2010 FAQ. The idea of giving SM strike cruisers the option to swap the bombardment cannon with a str 2 lance at cost was so polarizing it caused a 72 page thread. The eventual compromise was a str 1 lance at 5 points (iirc) so that it would be 'so gakky no one would ever take it and it would be forgotten in an edition or so' to quote one tester.

This was back in 2009-2010.

All because BFG: Armada (the book, not the game) had a single throw away line in it that the IN was concerned about the Nova class frigate being too good a ship killer. Somehow this became a total ban in the Imperium on anti ship weaponry for SM.

Not sure how other GW things work, ours got swallowed up in the Specialist Games cancellation, but the BFG Rules committee went ahead and released it into the wild anyway so that the new rules could be used at Tournies, etc.


I always thought the lance thing was silly, Yes Space Marines having Lances on their ships was looked at poorly by the navy but that didn't mean some space faring chapters wouldn't do it.


Sure some space faring chapters with political connections or former Legion status might get away with it, but then it becomes a slippery slope since part of the reason for the Imperial Navy was supposedly to keep in check the Imperial Guard by being their sole means of interstellar transport, and the Space Marines by being able to outfight them in a pitched space battle.

However then there is the issue of Space Marine supremacist fans who seem to find it insufferable for the Space Marines to be anything than the best at everything. Ruleswise, the Space Marine ships are already more all round heavily armored, with superior ordnance, superior boarding, superior hit and run abilities, better Ld, and bombardment cannons which outperform regular weapon batteries in power if not range. Then add on lances which outperform bombardment cannons? You would end up with a fleet that consists of pretty much all strengths and no weaknesses save maybe points cost, and that should not be the sole or primary balancing factor as demonstrated by the fiasco of the Necron rules. If Space Marine fleets became basically the Imperial Navy+1, then it would upstage the role of the Imperial Navy in both lore and the BFG game itself.

Having a near complete ban on lances may be a bit of a kneejerk backlash too far in the opposite direction, but I can see why if lances are almost a no-brainer superior option. Paying a premium for lances (i.e. overpriced lances like the above) was probably a reasonable compromise, though clearly 1 lance at 5 points is so overpriced it becomes a clearly inferior option.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/07 13:55:45


 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

w1zard wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Reemmber too that (ugh) thousands of crew are required to haul each and every individual multi megatonne shell up to the breach and load it, because while autoloaders are an actual thing for voidship weapons, they're not grimdark enough to come standard.

Also remember that according to both BFG and FFG, 1/3 of the ship is the engines

Even with 90% of the larger vessels taken up with "stuff" and being completely unusable, you'd still have 90% of the remaining space uninhabited with the listed crew numbers, and with the crowded-ness levels generally portrayed in the lore. Things like bunk beds and communal quarters (which are nessecary on modern navy ships) would be laughably pointless on such a large ship... yet they still exist in the lore.


And the same is true of pretty much every Sci-fi show, book, game , computer game. Trying to think of a franchise where this is not the case? 40k ships are pretty small really compared to many universes.

Culture ships can be the size of a continent - do they need to be that big? probably not. Do they have a massive crew - nope because the crew are mainly there because the Ship's Mind likes having a crew.

Sci-fi ships are big - thats just what people tend to write/draw/make/create/animate/CGI.

The size of the ship fits the narrative, thats pretty much it.

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 Mr Morden wrote:
And the same is true of pretty much every Sci-fi show, book, game , computer game. Trying to think of a franchise where this is not the case? 40k ships are pretty small really compared to many universes.

Culture ships can be the size of a continent - do they need to be that big? probably not. Do they have a massive crew - nope because the crew are mainly there because the Ship's Mind likes having a crew.

Sci-fi ships are big - thats just what people tend to write/draw/make/create/animate/CGI.

The size of the ship fits the narrative, thats pretty much it.

Sure, but I at least acknowledge that reality and don't disingenuously try to argue that the crew numbers are anything close to realistic because I'm not an idiot or a contrarian. (I am not implying you are either)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/07 17:51:55


 
   
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Seneca Nation of Indians

BrianDavion wrote:

I always thought the lance thing was silly, Yes Space Marines having Lances on their ships was looked at poorly by the navy but that didn't mean some space faring chapters wouldn't do it.


THe issue is that it has nothing to DO with lances. The Nova was looked askance on because it's so grotesquely superior to the equivalent ship in the same role in IN service, Firestorm. particularly since it can fire it's lance FLR compared to the Firestorm's F only.

The lance thing is just people's headcanon because they don't understand that it's not 'just' having a lance that makes the Nova viewed this way. Lances are, in canon, vaslty superior to Bombardment cannons for, well, bombardment, able to accurately hit the target (and everything else for a km) rather than saturating a twenty mile wide area with fire.

If you have any doubts about this, Seditio Opprimere should set them to rest, but the same people raged so hard we had to completely redo the ship, from a lance boat to a bombardment cannon boat. So that their idea of canon fit.

At the end, the design team allowed Desolators to be taken as Venerable battle barges. I suspect this was intended as a massive middle finger.

And don't even get me started on Jovian: I spent weeks arguing to keep it in the game because some players felt that the IN having access to any carrier that did not suck (See Defiant and the problems it STILL suffers from) somehow detracted from the fleet. The compromise was Jovians current bizarre rules for when you can take it.

You know, rather than good, balanced, well thought out rules.

O nthe flip side, at the same time we had IA:10 come out and a Fortress Monastery that couldn't turn before flying off the end of the board, Oh, and the Cardinal class, which people besides me flew into a rage about, even though FW forgot to put stats in the book for it. The stats from BFGM gave it FLR torps. Cue screaming.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/07 21:43:51



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
 
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