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The 'you had to constantly reference the pages in the rulebook!' argument holds no water with the new-SRs on each individual datasheet, where now you spend MORE time going through the codexes looking for the new-SRs as opposed to flipping to the USR section in the old rulebooks.

I'd like to see close combat buffed against shooting. Everybody being in cover on turn 1 by default, more large LOS blocking terrain, and I like the idea someone posted of being able to chase after units falling back out of combat, movement score +D6. Perhaps the old sweeping advance rule where you wiped out an enemy you caught would be too much, but definitely keeping that unit locked in combat would be fair

Another good idea I read was command points being based on percentage of troops in your army. Now command points kind of encourage troops, but don't discourage a minimum amount of MSU troops just to tick the right boxes.

3CP for battleforged then 2CP for every 100 points of troops you field. Maybe some more for only using a single codex.

Serafimov86 wrote:
The 'you had to constantly reference the pages in the rulebook!' argument holds no water with the new-SRs on each individual datasheet, where now you spend MORE time going through the codexes looking for the new-SRs as opposed to flipping to the USR section in the old rulebooks.

I don't really follow because you presumably have the codex open anyway to identify the stats, and the weapons etc of the unit. So now you can read its relevant special rules as well.

As opposed to having say "This Unit is a Flying Monstrous Creature (...) that starts deployed in gliding mode (....), it has the ADAMANTIUM WILL; CRUSADER; HATRED; and ZEALOT special rules" and having to search for the book for what each of those mean.

I guess you can say "well just take the big red book and learn its 50+ pages backwards and forwards" - and sure, you can do that, but I struggle to believe that is easier than just reading the relevant section of your unit.

The counter argument would be "yeah but when I get a new army I have to learn all their special rules from scratch, whereas I would totally know what a unit with INFILTRATE; STEALTH; SHROUDED and RELENTLESS would do".

Which I guess might be true - but tbh its really not that hard to read your codex, since you have to look up those stats and so on anyway.

I also think the number of USRs people seem to want back are pretty small. Sure, they could make "Deep Strike" something like the Fly Keyword. They could probably codify Feel No Pains. Beyond that though we start having to make "universal" rules, that are decidedly not universal and its just annoying.

Or I think so anyway.

Having USRs doesn't mean you can't print what the USR does on the sheet.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Having USRs doesn't mean you can't print what the USR does on the sheet.

except if you are gw. Then you want to force people to buy more books printed in china

The bad thing about bespoke rules is they have to be in the back of the book separate from what wargear the unit to take and the stats and rules of its wargear, except we're not bound by old bad UI of codexes.

Personal, wish list, no particular order

- auto hit weapons like flamers roll to hit on BS with modifiers when used in overwatch (so they auto hit normally but roll overwatch, say for a marine hitting on a 3+ instead of auto hitting) purpose being to make units with flamers no longer borderline suicidal to charge and means 'stealth' type units get an advantage charging

- when a unit pulls back from combat the unit or units they were fighting have two choices
-- "Free hit", each model gets to make a single attack, which automatically hits, but rolls for damage etc as usual (so well armoured elite troops pulling back from trash do better than vice versa)
-- "chase them", unit falling back makes its normal move, unit trying to chase them down gets to move 1d6", if they end up within 1" they are still locked in combat and will fight later (neither side counting as having charged that turn) purpose of this is so you can pull back and potentially lead an enemy unit forwards

you could make it a Ld test to use 'free hit', otherwise be forced to try and chase, so low Ld troops are more likely to be pulled out of position?

- all aura get to impact one unit within the aura range, not all units within range, basically to tone them down a bit but still allow critical units effects - have a strat open to all to expand an aura to another unit for a CP or all within range for 2CP for a single phase

- use the cities of death terrain rules for all games, the AP boost from height and negative to hit from cover are very nice, keep the 'roll of a six always hits', and allow scatter terrain to actually do something and be worth putting on the table

- bring in the 'damage phase' from APOC at the end of the game turn to limit the alpha strike first turn effect, allows the turn to be considered to be a bit more fluid than IGOYGO without making it too complicated (needs markers to indicate wounds that will be taken at the turn end - you could go as far as to simply record hits and wounds then resolve later but its probably easier to just record the actual wounds to be taken to avoid having to track what caused what - allows for last stands by a unit you know is dead in its turn)

- provide a bonus for 'mono faction' armies, probably just extra CP and/or maybe a +1 on the various pre-game dice to reflect better coordination?

- where space in the codex permits, make sure all common weapon options are on the damned data cards - e.g ork warboss gaining back the power klaw line, use the space on the page where its there for information not a picture to show optional weapons etc.

- use the fact that all vehicles now have a data card to give them clearly noted fire arcs overlaid on a birds eye outline of the vehicle, also use a second to provide differing toughness and save values - note each vehicle can get these individually to taste, makes it a lot easier say to have strike aircraft have forward facing weapons with a limited fire arc, or some vehicles to have reduced armour to the rear - without arguments over where the "front" is as you have arcs linked to some part of the model showing you how to determine it, make positioning actually matter a bit more than it does now, can do the same for larger monsters, dreadnaught and similar, heck could do it for any model where its appropriate

- expand the 'keyword' system to weapons and items of equipment, so its suddenly very simple to apply an effect to all <LASER> weapons for example


think some of the above would be pretty easy to add without seriously shaking things up but add a bit more flavour, some would be more involved, idea being evolution not revolution. e.g. any vehicle without fire arcs on its card has all 360 weapons and the same armour & toughness all round - you add them by exception where useful.

only really the damage phase changes how the game works mechanically, I quite like the idea that a unit gets to do something before it dies, and a unit wiped in combat at least gets to fight back.

the 'free hit' idea has been in warhammer (fantasy) before, idea is to provide some penalty for falling back from combat, a few grots running from say daemons should find turning their backs is a risk, but it allows a more elite unit to shrug off chaff more easily and could allow for say a Ld test to be able to fire at or charge as normal (with units having such abilities now being able to do it automatically) to offset the potential risks

Karol wrote:

Or put the rules online for a monthly abo. Normal one would get the rules for a faction. the De lux would give rules with better rules like re-rolls etc. Buying the rules in 6-12 month mega packs could give better doctrins etc. the add something like a administratum support box. For 1$ per day, 3 times a day , unless you are delux then you can get more of them with a discount on the support boxs, you could roll and get anything between an example of how to pain some unit, part of an art of an up coming model, or even a rule for a unit your faction doesn't have. And if you got the same rewards 5 times while scrolling over it the icon would glitter.

So good!

leopard wrote:


- bring in the 'damage phase' from APOC at the end of the game turn to limit the alpha strike first turn effect, allows the turn to be considered to be a bit more fluid than IGOYGO without making it too complicated (needs markers to indicate wounds that will be taken at the turn end - you could go as far as to simply record hits and wounds then resolve later but its probably easier to just record the actual wounds to be taken to avoid having to track what caused what - allows for last stands by a unit you know is dead in its turn)

I've been thinking about this a lot. It's actually really difficult to do unless you resolve the entirety of the damage exactly as you do now and simply postpone removing models until the end of the round. But that's silly, because knowing whether or not a unit is going to die will completely change how you use it and, perhaps even more so, how much damage you're going to pour into it if it's an enemy unit. The whole thing works really nicely in Apoc because most of the time you don't know for sure what the outcome of an attack actually is until after all units have acted.

leopard wrote:

the 'free hit' idea has been in warhammer (fantasy) before, idea is to provide some penalty for falling back from combat, a few grots running from say daemons should find turning their backs is a risk, but it allows a more elite unit to shrug off chaff more easily and could allow for say a Ld test to be able to fire at or charge as normal (with units having such abilities now being able to do it automatically) to offset the potential risks

The 'free hit' was part of breaking off from combat in 40k 2nd, and also added that the unit breaking off automatically failed morale. Even so, loyalist Space Marines could more or less wander out of combat at will unless their opponent was really killy. But I do agree that falling back isn't punished nearly enough at the moment.

Serafimov86 wrote:
The 'you had to constantly reference the pages in the rulebook!' argument holds no water with the new-SRs on each individual datasheet, where now you spend MORE time going through the codexes looking for the new-SRs as opposed to flipping to the USR section in the old rulebooks.

But USR are “bad” mmkay?

For sure a 'damage phase' needs some method of working it out, was trying to keep it simple, and yes this does mean you 'know' unit "A" is dead, so it no longer matters what they do - but then half the stuff I put on the table I 'know' is dead regardless.

I like the APOC idea, trouble is with 40k unless you resolve all the way through its a drastic change, my thinking is to try and not invalidate all the books published.

needs something though even if this isn't it, not sure alternating activations work.

perhaps keep stuff like FnP and similar to the end phase, just record wounds taken - even if in excess of the number the model has?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pancakey wrote:

Serafimov86 wrote:
The 'you had to constantly reference the pages in the rulebook!' argument holds no water with the new-SRs on each individual datasheet, where now you spend MORE time going through the codexes looking for the new-SRs as opposed to flipping to the USR section in the old rulebooks.

But USR are “bad” mmkay?

apply <keywords> to unit special rules?

so you have whatever version of deep strike you have, with whatever flavour is added, but its noted as a <DEEP STRIKE> rule, so things can interact with it without having to mention each and every version?

I'd Love a melee guardsman unit(Not Ogryn)
Or a jump pack Guardsman unit.
But I'm probably going to lose my rough riders...

 Slayer222 wrote:
I'd Love a melee guardsman unit(Not Ogryn)
Or a jump pack Guardsman unit.
But I'm probably going to lose my rough riders...

Can always join Spikey guardsmen.
You just sacrifice everything else though that would make melee work.

 Slayer222 wrote:
I'd Love a melee guardsman unit(Not Ogryn)
Or a jump pack Guardsman unit.
But I'm probably going to lose my rough riders...

The mists of time conceal that IG did used to have an 'assault squad' of jump pack guardsmen, IIRC with chainswords and laser pistols, plus two special weapon slots.

Had a squad of them, in metal, wish I still had them even though they would be utterly useless these days

would fit a nice role though, rapid moving guardsmen who can grab (very) lightly defended objectives and generally be an irritation. Not sure IG need a heavy hitting assault infantry unit, but something mobile that can fight, a bit, would be useful

ditto giving them an actual drop ship - something a bit like a larger drop pod that can carry a decent sized platoon of infantry or maybe two/three vehicles (e.g. three chimera and passengers or two leman russ, but probably not the artillery chassis types)

 Slayer222 wrote:

Come join the Greater Good

I'd Love a melee guardsman unit(Not Ogryn)

We have that - Kroot and other auxileries. They're not T'au, so they're melee. Not melee as in "Good at melee", but melee as in "send them into CC. If they die, that saves our eugenics project some resources".

Or a jump pack Guardsman unit.

We call them Vespids. And if they happen to survive, no biggie, we have a handle on their population.

But I'm probably going to lose my rough riders...

Riding a Gnarloc is so much more rough-riding than those human pansies on those horse-things.

So come over to the Greater Good. We'll even promise you cookies.

Pointed Stick wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

I can't exalt this hard enough. It really is the hammer hitting the nail on the head.

40k has morphed into something that is unrecognisable as a wargame.

Thanks, I appreciate the kind words.

Here's a specificexample: In a recent game my opponent was looking worried about the huge blob of Orks across the table. "Don't worry, "Orks are slow." I reassured him. After all, they only have a 5" move, right?

LOL

- 5" move + 1" for being Evil sunz
- D6" advance +1" for being Evil Sunz
- Re-rollable 2D6" charge, +1" for being Evil Sunz, and I can charge after advancing from being near a Warboss who grants this aura buff

Wow, my Orks on foot are now regularly making 20-24" charges. Not so slow, huh?

It used to be that I needed a Trukk to pull this kind of long-range surprise attack. I would try to hide the Trukk behind LOS-blocking area terrain, and my opponent would try to maneuver his troops to shoot it or set up interlocking lines of fire so that it would be vulnerable once it moved out in the open. It was fun, and tactical. I felt good when I pulled it off, because it was tricky and effective.

Now I can't use a Trukk this way because the passengers can't charge after disembarking if it moves, and the Trukk is always visible now so it gets blasted off the table almost instantly. And even if these problem were fixed, there still wouldn't be any point since the Orks are already fast enough on foot now with Advance moves and charge-after-advancing and the 2D6 charge range and the Orks' re-roll charge buff and the ridiculous Evil Sunz movement buff. Nonsensically, they're faster on foot than in a transport vehicle! Also, a large footprint on the tabletop has no disadvantages because terrain no longer slows down infantry. So why not spread out and have more board control?

Just one example of how the game's core rules push people to do the same set of like 3 or 4 good tactics, making games static, boring, and predictable.

I mean....in 7th edition orkz could move 6' so the only real benefit her is the +1 for charge and advance, so by that measure, your orkz are now able to move 2' further on average using 1 specific kulture. Also, in prior editions, orkz could disembark, move, advance and charge from a trukk which gave them more range. Not to mention, in prior editions Trukk Boyz actually were a threat. Now if you fully equipped 11 boyz and a nob with the best gear possible they would still suck and be laughed at, probably dying in the overwatch phase.

SemperMortis wrote:

I mean....in 7th edition orkz could move 6' so the only real benefit her is the +1 for charge and advance, so by that measure, your orkz are now able to move 2' further on average using 1 specific kulture.

I think it's a major problem that every model can advance, that some can charge after advancing, that models' charge distance is a wildly variable distance that has no relationship to their base speed, and that certain models and armies (like Orks) have buffs to improve their average charge distances. The combination of these factors makes infantry super fast, and eliminates one of the major reasons to take a transport vehicle--that it gets you where you want to go faster than you can go on foot. The transport can still provide protection and add firepower, but speaking about Orks here, the Trukk does neither, while the Battlewagon is much too expensive for this.

SemperMortis wrote:

Now if you fully equipped 11 boyz and a nob with the best gear possible they would still suck and be laughed at, probably dying in the overwatch phase.

I stopped playing during 6th edition, but up through 5th, I regularly smashed people with this attitude who weren't expecting Trukk Boyz ambushes to work. It wasn't easy of course, and you needed to pick your target right, position the trukk properly, and maybe hit a particularly tough target with two trukks' worth of boyz simultaneously. But I felt like such a tactical genius every time I pulled it off.

In 8th edition, this maneuver is impossible--and even if it wasn't, the embarked boyz would be at an even greater disadvantage compared to prior editions, because they now have fewer attacks and their Nob's powerklaw is less effective than it used to be.

Tyel wrote:

Serafimov86 wrote:
The 'you had to constantly reference the pages in the rulebook!' argument holds no water with the new-SRs on each individual datasheet, where now you spend MORE time going through the codexes looking for the new-SRs as opposed to flipping to the USR section in the old rulebooks.

I don't really follow because you presumably have the codex open anyway to identify the stats, and the weapons etc of the unit. So now you can read its relevant special rules as well........................................................

Presumably, players actually learn most of the rules for their army, and can play without reading each one every game.

However, as I said pages ago, stat cards for each unit would be a good move.

Blastaar wrote:

Tyel wrote:

Serafimov86 wrote:
The 'you had to constantly reference the pages in the rulebook!' argument holds no water with the new-SRs on each individual datasheet, where now you spend MORE time going through the codexes looking for the new-SRs as opposed to flipping to the USR section in the old rulebooks.

I don't really follow because you presumably have the codex open anyway to identify the stats, and the weapons etc of the unit. So now you can read its relevant special rules as well........................................................

Presumably, players actually learn most of the rules for their army, and can play without reading each one every game.

However, as I said pages ago, stat cards for each unit would be a good move.

I'm surprised that they haven't followed suit with AOS where with each faction release they do a limited run of a few months for that faction's data cards, markers and counters etc.

I think they avoid stat cards because they don't work particularly well with varied weapon loadouts. AoS even wavers between listing all the possible weapons from a kit in one sheet or declaring each one its own unit.

Have point costs for gear on the data sheets, so different gear can have different costs for different units.

As to what I'd like to see?

I really like how 8th consolidated the factions into soup, but I get it also went a little far. I'd like 9th to find a middle ground. For example, take Chaos Marines and Daemons and make 4 factions from them. Xenos has some obvious divides. On the Imperium side, I think Marines can be there own thing, but I'd LOVE to see the Inquisition built from Sisters/DW/Grey Knights and I think Custodes and Knights would go best with Guard as a sort of Shield of the Imperium theme.

As for the factions themselves, I'd love to see chapter tactics decoupled from the chapters themselves. Let any chapter take any tactic, but emphasize them as "preferred tactic of" to keep the fluff for those who like it. You can even go so far as to make the character heroes come with a mandatory tactic. Just stop making people feel like they have to have their stuff a certain color to get the rules they want. This is true of other factions as well. Orks shouldn't need to be blue or yellow or whatever.

Pointed Stick wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Now if you fully equipped 11 boyz and a nob with the best gear possible they would still suck and be laughed at, probably dying in the overwatch phase.

I stopped playing during 6th edition, but up through 5th, I regularly smashed people with this attitude who weren't expecting Trukk Boyz ambushes to work. It wasn't easy of course, and you needed to pick your target right, position the trukk properly, and maybe hit a particularly tough target with two trukks' worth of boyz simultaneously. But I felt like such a tactical genius every time I pulled it off.

In 8th edition, this maneuver is impossible--and even if it wasn't, the embarked boyz would be at an even greater disadvantage compared to prior editions, because they now have fewer attacks and their Nob's powerklaw is less effective than it used to be.

Yes because in 4th-7th Power Klaw Nobz were scary. In 8th a Powerklaw nob in a Trukk unit gets 3 attacks hitting on 4s so 1.5 hits, He is S10 so he wounds all vehicles on a 3 which means on average 1 wound. Against a 3+ save they still get a 6+ save which further reduces your Wounds to .83 wounds, which does D3 damage which averages to a grand total of......1.66 a turn.

in prior editions, a PK nob could 1 shot most vehicles in the game, now.....if they can inflict 3 damage on a vehicle a turn its way above average.

The actual trukk boyz themselves aren't as scary as a blob for 1 main reason, lack of damage potential. In an edition where being able to kill a Super Heavy on turn 1 is almost required for tournament play, a bunch of S4 attacks without AP just isn't scary.

 LunarSol wrote:
I think they avoid stat cards because they don't work particularly well with varied weapon loadouts. AoS even wavers between listing all the possible weapons from a kit in one sheet or declaring each one its own unit.

Not everything needs to be on the card. Weapon stats and special rules text on a one-page reference sheet work just fine. Unit cards cards just need point costs, stat lines, and a list of special rules and wargear options. And to be included in the appropriate kit.

Blastaar wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I think they avoid stat cards because they don't work particularly well with varied weapon loadouts. AoS even wavers between listing all the possible weapons from a kit in one sheet or declaring each one its own unit.

Not everything needs to be on the card. Weapon stats and special rules text on a one-page reference sheet work just fine. Unit cards cards just need point costs, stat lines, and a list of special rules and wargear options. And to be included in the appropriate kit.

Yeah this. I wouldn't want the card to be overcrowded with trying to fit half a codex on it. Just the necessary information at a glance

SemperMortis wrote:
In an edition where being able to kill a Super Heavy on turn 1 is almost required for tournament play

There you go, the biggest thing that's wrong with 8th edition in a nutshell.

Pointed Stick wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
In an edition where being able to kill a Super Heavy on turn 1 is almost required for tournament play

There you go, the biggest thing that's wrong with 8th edition in a nutshell.

problem is less the ability to kill a SH in a turn, but more that there is very seldom any downside to having the firepower to do so, even when you are not facing one - typically its not one shot from one weapon doing the deed so the multiple weapons can do some serious harm elsewhere.

in effect there is little tactical choice required here, you bring the firepower because its useful anyway and only in some edge cases will it be less efficient (e.g. facing a largely foot IG list where its all serious overkill), but such situations are either rare or have other counters you are likely to be able to have as well.

if being able to kill the SH in a turn actually cost you something in terms of your own list being suddenly a lot weaker in other important areas it would be different.

the game needs something other than "Toughness" and saves to distinguish targets so a weapon that can hurt a SH is basically unable to hit anything smaller and more nimble - some sort of target size modifier coupled with a weapon to hit modifier perhaps - so a super cannon can't hit infantry and small arms seldom miss anything bit but equally seldom do anything of note to it. Currently there are too many 'duel mode' weapons there is no real downside to taking


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Following on from the above, desired things to add

- Add a "Target Size" modifier to all units, standard infantry can be "0", small infantry maybe "-1" so harder to hit (grots, ratlings and similar), bigger stuff gets a +1 say for terminator sized models, +2 for small vehicles, dreadnaughts etc, you get the idea.

- Add a modifier for Target speed, keeping it simple, not moving is a +1, so sitting still makes you easier to hit, moving up to your normal move, or up to 8", whichever is lower is zero, 8" to 16" say is -1, 16 - 24" is -2 perhaps - drop the "supersonic" type to hit modifiers as they are no longer needed - moving faster makes you harder to hit - denoted with markers when units move - note the bands are provided so typical infantry unless advancing don't get a modifier unless they stand still (makes gun lines a bit easier to hit)

- Add an 'accuracy' modifier to weapons, small arms typically get "0", heavier weapons get -1, -2, -3 or more for seriously clumsy things (the move and fire a heavy weapon penalty remains, in addition) - this works with the above to mean that large anti tank guns struggle to hit small infantry but will find hitting larger vehicles very similar to now.

- Allow armour saves to go to 1+ or even negative, and remove the "roll of one always fails" condition - replace with if you roll a 1, re-roll it, if thats still a 1 then it fails, but in this case you do double damage as you have found a weak spot, in effect a 'critical hit' mechanic without a damage table for it

what you end up with is a system where a gun thats intended as a "tank killer" is no longer also very good at hitting elite infantry, though it will kill them if it does hit. But weapons intended to kill elite infantry are no longer also good for dealing with armour as -2/-3 AP is no longer enough to deal with a serious tank unless you get lucky.

now stuff like AP -5/-6 etc starts to matter, indeed higher AP becomes possible and useful when you have perhaps saves of "-2" etc.


in effect you go back to having different target classes but also different weapon classes, titan scale weapons are not going to hurt infantry (unless they are blast type weapons designed to kill infantry), but equally to kill a titan needs serious firepower

The simple solution is to take away some of the ridiculous amounts of dakka that some units can put out. I mean look at the Ork lists pre-nerf. The 25 Loota combo was the best we had because it didn't take much skill to use and average luck meant you were getting 100 S7 shots a turn with rerolling 1s and exploding 5s and 6s.

SemperMortis wrote:
The simple solution is to take away some of the ridiculous amounts of dakka that some units can put out. I mean look at the Ork lists pre-nerf. The 25 Loota combo was the best we had because it didn't take much skill to use and average luck meant you were getting 100 S7 shots a turn with rerolling 1s and exploding 5s and 6s.

Much Strategy! This is the edition we asked for! Remember?

Yeah the number of shots that a lot of guns throw out there is pretty ridiculous these days. Years ago I remember grousing that Assault Cannons only fired three shots. Be careful what you wish for I guess, lol! When tanks with gatling cannons can fire like 30 shots a turn, it just becomes suicide to march up the board without some serious gimmicks, or boosters to durability and speed.

In theory this is exactly what transport vehicles should be for, but they're so hilariously overpriced and vulnerable to the plethora of anti-tank weapons typical in today's lists that they just don't make sense to bring.

It's a shame because in principle I really like the idea that footslogging soldiers can be mowed down like grass when they're out in the open unprotected, but there just aren't enough realistic and normal-ish means of mitigating this (e.g. getting in an APC, hiding in the forest) so we're reduced to gimmickery or Soviet-style human wave hordes.

It is not merely the number of attacks but the added stratagems and force multipliers. When this edition started, we had girlyman and a bunch of flying tanks because he gave them all rerolls to hit and wound. This basically doubled there damage output.

For orkz, our only shooting that is really competitive was the loota's and only if you sank in a stratagem to hit have exploding 5s and 6s and another strat to shoot twice. and another strat to shield them with grotz and another stratagem to lump them together to make a bigger squad.

For a number of factions, some units are literally unplayable unless you have stratagems. I understand those are the point of the game right now, but when you combine them with all the aura's that some factions get you end up with super dakka and as you pointed out, the inability to have anything not heavily armored survive for long out in the open.