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Is Warmahordes being seen as a "dying game" the reason it's a dying game?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

crimsyn wrote:
Regarding Page 5, I think the biggest issue was that the message was at odds with how it was delivered.. If you read it carefully, there was a lot of good stuff in there about being a good sport, no honour in stomping newbies or winning through being a jerk, etc. But, it was couched in such over the top aggressively edgelordy language that a lot of people took it as licence to be a jerk and approach the game with a "page 5 bro, grow a pair and git gud, noob" attitude. Unnecessarily gendered references were just the cherry on top. There is still a Page 5 in the Mk.III books which, from what I remember, contains a similar sort of statement of values, just without sounding like it is being screamed at you by an obnoxious 13 year old who plays a ton of Call of Duty.

Well, it helps to actually READ what is written. Sadly, that is not a strong trend as evidenced by some of the YMDC discussions I've gotten in to with 40K. So people only read the bold type, not anything else, so running as a jerk-hole seems justified.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in gb
Wicked Warp Spider





 NH Gunsmith wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
Company of Iron suffered mostly from requiring a box of models no one wanted to get the cards to play with the stuff you had. :\


...they sold the cards themselves online for $8. That was all you needed to play since the rules were/are free.


yep sadly the postage for anywhere outside the US more or less doubled that and adding on a mini or two to lessen the impact, at least in the UK left you wide open to the somewhat unfair 'handling' charge, I'm fine with import duty but the £8 handling was often 2 or 3 times the duty, why they couldn't have just the cards on the card database a few months after the box came out is a mystery, its a shame as low model count skirmishy games are rather popular in my corner of the shire (and may have let my Skinwalkers see table time, rather than naaahhh i'll just use the Tharn)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/03 07:23:33


"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 NH Gunsmith wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
Company of Iron suffered mostly from requiring a box of models no one wanted to get the cards to play with the stuff you had. :\


...they sold the cards themselves online for $8. That was all you needed to play since the rules were/are free.


Online only sales of cards needed to play isn't a huge hurdle, but its a small enough hurdle for enough people that you don't get that initial buy in spike needed to take off. I feel like that's been the bane of Guild Ball for similar reasons; with updates to the plot deck not sold in a timely manner (or at all) being regular points that people just don't keep up with it anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
crimsyn wrote:
I am looking forward to trying out Riot Quest though; that has gotten me pretty excited and I think it would probably be a better entry point into WMH than CoI as it introduces the models and the universe but doesn't have a bunch of stuff you need to unlearn.


I think its a fun little system, but I need to try it again with a new map. The starter map has a bad tendency to spawn figures completely out of the game and since there's a cost to activating a figure to move, they'll often remain there the entire game unless the opponent suffers a similar fate. The pirate ship map looks like its got a better design, though I think in general the game would benefit from smaller maps given the constraints on model movement.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/03 14:50:36


 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




 Charistoph wrote:
crimsyn wrote:
Regarding Page 5, I think the biggest issue was that the message was at odds with how it was delivered.. If you read it carefully, there was a lot of good stuff in there about being a good sport, no honour in stomping newbies or winning through being a jerk, etc. But, it was couched in such over the top aggressively edgelordy language that a lot of people took it as licence to be a jerk and approach the game with a "page 5 bro, grow a pair and git gud, noob" attitude. Unnecessarily gendered references were just the cherry on top. There is still a Page 5 in the Mk.III books which, from what I remember, contains a similar sort of statement of values, just without sounding like it is being screamed at you by an obnoxious 13 year old who plays a ton of Call of Duty.

Well, it helps to actually READ what is written. Sadly, that is not a strong trend as evidenced by some of the YMDC discussions I've gotten in to with 40K. So people only read the bold type, not anything else, so running as a jerk-hole seems justified.


That's kind of my point. If you actually read all the fine print carefully and think about it, it's got some good stuff in there. But it seems like PP undermined their own message about good sportsmanship by pretty much screaming it in people's face as aggressively as they could, which is not a good communications strategy. So when it backfires, yeah, you could say "stupid player base didn't read the fine print" or you could realize there was a failure in communication somewhere and change, like PP did when they started phasing out the "play like you've got a pair" slogan and changing how they approached page 5.
   
Made in us
Dangerous Outrider






I had all but forgotten the page five rules, don't get me wrong, I have played bad players in 40k and Warhammer. But I don't know why it seemed that most of the WM/H players where WAAC and took delight in curb-stomping newbies.
The other thing that someone has already mentioned is the fact the tables don't look that great and when both players have half unassembled unpainted models, it doesn't draw people over to the table to check it out.
Even if someone new wanted to start playing, once they realize about the secondary market is glutted, they might be afraid they are just throwing money away at a system about to die, hence the topic of this thread.

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Illinois

 Genoside07 wrote:
I had all but forgotten the page five rules, don't get me wrong, I have played bad players in 40k and Warhammer. But I don't know why it seemed that most of the WM/H players where WAAC and took delight in curb-stomping newbies.

My guess that would be because of the way the game was marketed. I remember being on Facebook months ago and reading the PP and GW Facebook pages. The GW one had the standard promotional material for new stuff but beyond that it had posts like:

GW: Hey guys show us your painted version of X
Comments: Tons of people showing off their painted minis

Or

GW: Hey guys who do think would win in a fight, X or Y? (X and Y being characters in the game)
Comments: Fans talking about the hypothetical match up.

In general GW always seems to be marketing a hobby and has no interest in really heavily promoting, supporting or even creating any "pro" circuit. Which is why ITC exists. PP however does. Their Facebook page had live streams of the finals of some competitive event at a con. Like a lot of esports they had commentators and stats/names on the screen like you see during a football game. A game that is marketed and presented as more of a sport is probably going to draw a lot more of the WAAC type players.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




@BloodHawk

I agree that in the past that his how the game has been marketed. However PP has made great strides in promoting the hobby side of the game and does regular hobby streams and video on their yourtube. The issue is the community.

Some of the most talented painters and the most amazing paint jobs I have seen in person have been at WM/H events. Also at those same events I have seem a person literally pour their 75pt Cryx "army" out of a shoe box, unpainted, broken and battered, set it up in front of my well painted trollbloods army and not see anything amiss. "This is a about playing, not about painting" he said.... And never will those two camps meet.

Don't get me wrong, its not just a WM/H thing. Iv seen the same in 40K games. Its just more common in WM/H.

As WM/H starts to get less releases as PP focuses more on Warcaster and Riotquest PP should take this opportunity to encourage more hobby, 3D terrain use etc to gain wider appeal. WM/H is a very very good game and great to play either competitively or casually.
   
Made in us
Napoleonics Obsesser




MN

Many years ago, I was interested in learning about new games beyond GW. Of course, War Machine was a new game so I took a look at the rules. I read Page 5, put the book back on the shelf and never looked back at the game again. That was NOT the type of game I wanted to play.

If Page 5 ethos was not a thing, Great! They lost at least this customer with that pitch. If it is still part of the game that is a problem in my eyes and hindering their growth by not being a game for all players, but a game for a certain type of player.

Do you like Free Wargames?
http://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in gb
Wicked Warp Spider





 Easy E wrote:
Many years ago, I was interested in learning about new games beyond GW. Of course, War Machine was a new game so I took a look at the rules. I read Page 5, put the book back on the shelf and never looked back at the game again. That was NOT the type of game I wanted to play.

If Page 5 ethos was not a thing, Great! They lost at least this customer with that pitch. If it is still part of the game that is a problem in my eyes and hindering their growth by not being a game for all players, but a game for a certain type of player.


I think a lot of the worst offenders got a tad sniffy about Mk3 undoing a lot of their secret 'git gud gotcha' tech and stropped off, and whilst Mk3 was a bit wobbly and balance was not the proclaimed 'most tested ever', Skorne players could legit and justifiably out-salt any 40k no-love faction player at launch and one of the first casters released was Iron Hands level of ill-considered wtf'ery, its mostly okay now

I'd say the Geedubs pushes the same sort of agenda just in a more insidious and spendy way with power creep to flog new toys and doing us a favour with frequent errata, once sales targets have been reached, but, it is known. I'm a rabid gw hater just for playing other games

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in us
Napoleonics Obsesser




MN

Oh, yeah. I play a ton of other games besides GW, just not War Machine.

It is popular at one of my local stores, so who knows..... I might change my mind one day.

After all, I prefer dead games anyway! Zoinks!

Do you like Free Wargames?
http://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Central Valley, California

 Paymaster Games wrote:
One of the things driving Privateer Press sale was that GW had burned a lot of there fan base in the early 2000s. Prior to the release of the current edition of 40k and the first general's compendium WM/H was doing very well. GW fixed their (rather abusive) problems, reworked fantasy to replace WM/H, and strongly focused their games game in to smaller bite size faction of the month.

PP failed to learn from this shift. This combined with the CCG way WM/H is played (overpowered Combos and game ending gotchas) that made it very difficult for new players to come into the game. The existing players became hyper completive in a very toxic way. PP had a very real chance to fix their games with 3rd editions, and they chose to kill their flagship line with that book. Just like a failing restaurant, they try to save themselves by putting new things on the menu while not trying to fix the existing game. Faction and SKU bloat is a fantastic example of this.

Now it is important to know that I think this is very fixable. Privateer needs figure out WM/H is a card game or a model game, it is clear that I can no longer be both. The game at this point is just too big at this point. In both paths the game needs to dramatically cut back.


You pretty much nailed it here. I think they should of slowed the warmahordes bloat and released Warcaster Neo years ago as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/07 21:21:51


~ Shrap

Rolling 1's for five decades.
Painted this Year: Infantry x 27, medium / cavalry x 14, large x 3
 
   
Made in gb
Wicked Warp Spider





 Easy E wrote:
Oh, yeah. I play a ton of other games besides GW, just not War Machine.

It is popular at one of my local stores, so who knows..... I might change my mind one day.

After all, I prefer dead games anyway! Zoinks!


can't be having fun wrong

GW and I were doing alright till mid-7th, which even the faithful would have a hard time defending, then X-Wing happened

And since we've just been out of sync, Bloodbowl comes out a few months after I pick up Guild Ball, Aos's remarkably daft launch didn't tempt me away from WM/H, although seems the jinx is broken as I've got a Gaslands book and Dark Future seems unlikely

But as is know the GW fans only deal in absolutes so I'm a hater (an absurd CWE collection disagrees but wut 'ver)

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Turnip Jedi wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
Oh, yeah. I play a ton of other games besides GW, just not War Machine.

It is popular at one of my local stores, so who knows..... I might change my mind one day.

After all, I prefer dead games anyway! Zoinks!


can't be having fun wrong

GW and I were doing alright till mid-7th, which even the faithful would have a hard time defending, then X-Wing happened

And since we've just been out of sync, Bloodbowl comes out a few months after I pick up Guild Ball, Aos's remarkably daft launch didn't tempt me away from WM/H, although seems the jinx is broken as I've got a Gaslands book and Dark Future seems unlikely

But as is know the GW fans only deal in absolutes so I'm a hater (an absurd CWE collection disagrees but wut 'ver)


Only the Sith deal in absolutes.
   
Made in gb
Wicked Warp Spider





said like a true Jedi, its almost like both of those cults are inane nonsense in unwitting service of a capricious deity

and to be fair most gamers are capable of outstanding levels of double think where something can be the best and worst thing ever at the same time

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wargaming as a community constantly reminds me of the console wars. Tribalism is a helluva drug.
   
Made in gb
Wicked Warp Spider





 LunarSol wrote:
Wargaming as a community constantly reminds me of the console wars. Tribalism is a helluva drug.



pffft young 'uns today, they know nothing of the Speccy vs C64 war of the early 80's....(which against all odds the speccyites won due to their owners blending with the background and the 64'ers being unable to sneak attack without kik-botty tunes)

But its a valid point, which the intertubes has fuelled as nuance and snark doesn't work so well in text, leading to escalations by all sides

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
 
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