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crimsyn wrote:
Regarding Page 5, I think the biggest issue was that the message was at odds with how it was delivered.. If you read it carefully, there was a lot of good stuff in there about being a good sport, no honour in stomping newbies or winning through being a jerk, etc. But, it was couched in such over the top aggressively edgelordy language that a lot of people took it as licence to be a jerk and approach the game with a "page 5 bro, grow a pair and git gud, noob" attitude. Unnecessarily gendered references were just the cherry on top. There is still a Page 5 in the Mk.III books which, from what I remember, contains a similar sort of statement of values, just without sounding like it is being screamed at you by an obnoxious 13 year old who plays a ton of Call of Duty.

Well, it helps to actually READ what is written. Sadly, that is not a strong trend as evidenced by some of the YMDC discussions I've gotten in to with 40K. So people only read the bold type, not anything else, so running as a jerk-hole seems justified.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Company of Iron suffered mostly from requiring a box of models no one wanted to get the cards to play with the stuff you had. :\

...they sold the cards themselves online for $8. That was all you needed to play since the rules were/are free.

yep sadly the postage for anywhere outside the US more or less doubled that and adding on a mini or two to lessen the impact, at least in the UK left you wide open to the somewhat unfair 'handling' charge, I'm fine with import duty but the £8 handling was often 2 or 3 times the duty, why they couldn't have just the cards on the card database a few months after the box came out is a mystery, its a shame as low model count skirmishy games are rather popular in my corner of the shire (and may have let my Skinwalkers see table time, rather than naaahhh i'll just use the Tharn)

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Company of Iron suffered mostly from requiring a box of models no one wanted to get the cards to play with the stuff you had. :\

...they sold the cards themselves online for $8. That was all you needed to play since the rules were/are free.

Online only sales of cards needed to play isn't a huge hurdle, but its a small enough hurdle for enough people that you don't get that initial buy in spike needed to take off. I feel like that's been the bane of Guild Ball for similar reasons; with updates to the plot deck not sold in a timely manner (or at all) being regular points that people just don't keep up with it anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

crimsyn wrote:
I am looking forward to trying out Riot Quest though; that has gotten me pretty excited and I think it would probably be a better entry point into WMH than CoI as it introduces the models and the universe but doesn't have a bunch of stuff you need to unlearn.

I think its a fun little system, but I need to try it again with a new map. The starter map has a bad tendency to spawn figures completely out of the game and since there's a cost to activating a figure to move, they'll often remain there the entire game unless the opponent suffers a similar fate. The pirate ship map looks like its got a better design, though I think in general the game would benefit from smaller maps given the constraints on model movement.

 Charistoph wrote:

crimsyn wrote:
Regarding Page 5, I think the biggest issue was that the message was at odds with how it was delivered.. If you read it carefully, there was a lot of good stuff in there about being a good sport, no honour in stomping newbies or winning through being a jerk, etc. But, it was couched in such over the top aggressively edgelordy language that a lot of people took it as licence to be a jerk and approach the game with a "page 5 bro, grow a pair and git gud, noob" attitude. Unnecessarily gendered references were just the cherry on top. There is still a Page 5 in the Mk.III books which, from what I remember, contains a similar sort of statement of values, just without sounding like it is being screamed at you by an obnoxious 13 year old who plays a ton of Call of Duty.

Well, it helps to actually READ what is written. Sadly, that is not a strong trend as evidenced by some of the YMDC discussions I've gotten in to with 40K. So people only read the bold type, not anything else, so running as a jerk-hole seems justified.

That's kind of my point. If you actually read all the fine print carefully and think about it, it's got some good stuff in there. But it seems like PP undermined their own message about good sportsmanship by pretty much screaming it in people's face as aggressively as they could, which is not a good communications strategy. So when it backfires, yeah, you could say "stupid player base didn't read the fine print" or you could realize there was a failure in communication somewhere and change, like PP did when they started phasing out the "play like you've got a pair" slogan and changing how they approached page 5.

I had all but forgotten the page five rules, don't get me wrong, I have played bad players in 40k and Warhammer. But I don't know why it seemed that most of the WM/H players where WAAC and took delight in curb-stomping newbies.
The other thing that someone has already mentioned is the fact the tables don't look that great and when both players have half unassembled unpainted models, it doesn't draw people over to the table to check it out.
Even if someone new wanted to start playing, once they realize about the secondary market is glutted, they might be afraid they are just throwing money away at a system about to die, hence the topic of this thread.

 Genoside07 wrote:
I had all but forgotten the page five rules, don't get me wrong, I have played bad players in 40k and Warhammer. But I don't know why it seemed that most of the WM/H players where WAAC and took delight in curb-stomping newbies.

My guess that would be because of the way the game was marketed. I remember being on Facebook months ago and reading the PP and GW Facebook pages. The GW one had the standard promotional material for new stuff but beyond that it had posts like:

GW: Hey guys show us your painted version of X
Comments: Tons of people showing off their painted minis

Or

GW: Hey guys who do think would win in a fight, X or Y? (X and Y being characters in the game)
Comments: Fans talking about the hypothetical match up.

In general GW always seems to be marketing a hobby and has no interest in really heavily promoting, supporting or even creating any "pro" circuit. Which is why ITC exists. PP however does. Their Facebook page had live streams of the finals of some competitive event at a con. Like a lot of esports they had commentators and stats/names on the screen like you see during a football game. A game that is marketed and presented as more of a sport is probably going to draw a lot more of the WAAC type players.

@BloodHawk

I agree that in the past that his how the game has been marketed. However PP has made great strides in promoting the hobby side of the game and does regular hobby streams and video on their yourtube. The issue is the community.

Some of the most talented painters and the most amazing paint jobs I have seen in person have been at WM/H events. Also at those same events I have seem a person literally pour their 75pt Cryx "army" out of a shoe box, unpainted, broken and battered, set it up in front of my well painted trollbloods army and not see anything amiss. "This is a about playing, not about painting" he said.... And never will those two camps meet.

Don't get me wrong, its not just a WM/H thing. Iv seen the same in 40K games. Its just more common in WM/H.

As WM/H starts to get less releases as PP focuses more on Warcaster and Riotquest PP should take this opportunity to encourage more hobby, 3D terrain use etc to gain wider appeal. WM/H is a very very good game and great to play either competitively or casually.

Many years ago, I was interested in learning about new games beyond GW. Of course, War Machine was a new game so I took a look at the rules. I read Page 5, put the book back on the shelf and never looked back at the game again. That was NOT the type of game I wanted to play.

If Page 5 ethos was not a thing, Great! They lost at least this customer with that pitch. If it is still part of the game that is a problem in my eyes and hindering their growth by not being a game for all players, but a game for a certain type of player.

 Easy E wrote:
Many years ago, I was interested in learning about new games beyond GW. Of course, War Machine was a new game so I took a look at the rules. I read Page 5, put the book back on the shelf and never looked back at the game again. That was NOT the type of game I wanted to play.

If Page 5 ethos was not a thing, Great! They lost at least this customer with that pitch. If it is still part of the game that is a problem in my eyes and hindering their growth by not being a game for all players, but a game for a certain type of player.

I think a lot of the worst offenders got a tad sniffy about Mk3 undoing a lot of their secret 'git gud gotcha' tech and stropped off, and whilst Mk3 was a bit wobbly and balance was not the proclaimed 'most tested ever', Skorne players could legit and justifiably out-salt any 40k no-love faction player at launch and one of the first casters released was Iron Hands level of ill-considered wtf'ery, its mostly okay now

I'd say the Geedubs pushes the same sort of agenda just in a more insidious and spendy way with power creep to flog new toys and doing us a favour with frequent errata, once sales targets have been reached, but, it is known. I'm a rabid gw hater just for playing other games

Oh, yeah. I play a ton of other games besides GW, just not War Machine.

It is popular at one of my local stores, so who knows..... I might change my mind one day.

After all, I prefer dead games anyway! Zoinks!

 Paymaster Games wrote:
One of the things driving Privateer Press sale was that GW had burned a lot of there fan base in the early 2000s. Prior to the release of the current edition of 40k and the first general's compendium WM/H was doing very well. GW fixed their (rather abusive) problems, reworked fantasy to replace WM/H, and strongly focused their games game in to smaller bite size faction of the month.

PP failed to learn from this shift. This combined with the CCG way WM/H is played (overpowered Combos and game ending gotchas) that made it very difficult for new players to come into the game. The existing players became hyper completive in a very toxic way. PP had a very real chance to fix their games with 3rd editions, and they chose to kill their flagship line with that book. Just like a failing restaurant, they try to save themselves by putting new things on the menu while not trying to fix the existing game. Faction and SKU bloat is a fantastic example of this.

Now it is important to know that I think this is very fixable. Privateer needs figure out WM/H is a card game or a model game, it is clear that I can no longer be both. The game at this point is just too big at this point. In both paths the game needs to dramatically cut back.

You pretty much nailed it here. I think they should of slowed the warmahordes bloat and released Warcaster Neo years ago as well.

 Easy E wrote:
Oh, yeah. I play a ton of other games besides GW, just not War Machine.

It is popular at one of my local stores, so who knows..... I might change my mind one day.

After all, I prefer dead games anyway! Zoinks!

can't be having fun wrong

GW and I were doing alright till mid-7th, which even the faithful would have a hard time defending, then X-Wing happened

And since we've just been out of sync, Bloodbowl comes out a few months after I pick up Guild Ball, Aos's remarkably daft launch didn't tempt me away from WM/H, although seems the jinx is broken as I've got a Gaslands book and Dark Future seems unlikely

But as is know the GW fans only deal in absolutes so I'm a hater (an absurd CWE collection disagrees but wut 'ver)

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
Oh, yeah. I play a ton of other games besides GW, just not War Machine.

It is popular at one of my local stores, so who knows..... I might change my mind one day.

After all, I prefer dead games anyway! Zoinks!

can't be having fun wrong

GW and I were doing alright till mid-7th, which even the faithful would have a hard time defending, then X-Wing happened

And since we've just been out of sync, Bloodbowl comes out a few months after I pick up Guild Ball, Aos's remarkably daft launch didn't tempt me away from WM/H, although seems the jinx is broken as I've got a Gaslands book and Dark Future seems unlikely

But as is know the GW fans only deal in absolutes so I'm a hater (an absurd CWE collection disagrees but wut 'ver)

Only the Sith deal in absolutes.

said like a true Jedi, its almost like both of those cults are inane nonsense in unwitting service of a capricious deity

and to be fair most gamers are capable of outstanding levels of double think where something can be the best and worst thing ever at the same time

Wargaming as a community constantly reminds me of the console wars. Tribalism is a helluva drug.

 LunarSol wrote:
Wargaming as a community constantly reminds me of the console wars. Tribalism is a helluva drug.

pffft young 'uns today, they know nothing of the Speccy vs C64 war of the early 80's....(which against all odds the speccyites won due to their owners blending with the background and the 64'ers being unable to sneak attack without kik-botty tunes)

But its a valid point, which the intertubes has fuelled as nuance and snark doesn't work so well in text, leading to escalations by all sides

 Charistoph wrote:
I can only give the testimonies that I have received from my local meta. It was a combination of ThemeMachine, "We only play Steamroller here", and other games being more accessible.

The introduction of Mk 3 and the Themes that came along with it, replicated the same disastrous Formations of 7th Ed 40K. If you didn't play in Theme, you were playing at fewer points and fewer rules than your opponent was. This was even worse when you had to do a lot of research in order to find out what qualified in your army to build that way, making it less desirable for the quick pick up game.

This left only the hypercompetitive and the stubborn left (consider me in that last category), who ignored anything but the Steamroller mantra. Some would complain about the lack of narrative games/events, etc, but wouldn't buy the No Quarter that had many of those things in there, and the people left largely didn't bother opening themselves up to those games anyway. Pick up games for WMH were not very common before ThemeMachine, and became less so afterwards.

When Mk 3 launched, AoS was just finishing its first year under the General's Handbook, and popularity was resurging. 40K had rebooted their game in to 8th Edition, making it simpler and less rules intense, as well as getting rid of the Formation mess. X-Wing was showing to be a mostly balanced game and didn't require any hobbying to play.

Don't really see an issue with the theme machine since it helps new players navigate a huge SKU, but having gotten newbs to table top gaming at all into RQ and Monsterpocalypse and probably Warcaster too, is that Warmachine is a 3rd ed. d20 based wargame that places too much math in front of the dice, while their other games which are growing put the math behind the dice. I think they would have to make Warmachine operate more like their other games (and yes with speciality dice) to keep the game from getting sh%$ rules like GW games, but still keep the math behind the dice. If the math is behind the dice, if SKU just becomes options.

The strike system in their other games, especially Warcaster is way more fluid than "My MAT is X, what is your Def? Oh okay so that means I have to roll (quick math for people who are not lifelong gamers or engineers) a 9?" Don't get me wrong, this was revolutionary in its day but with the market shifting from hardcore gamers to casuals, strike system allows competitive play and is ridiculously easy for new players.

That said, if PP died tomorrow it would be a HUGE loss for the hobby. Can you think of any independently owned IP that even comes close to 40k or AoS? That would be a bad sign not just for PP but the industry as a whole. PP has taken alot of hits and some through poor decisions but can anyone even think of any other non-licensed IP that comes close to PP? Even Infinity, is very small outside of EU.

Themes where nice until the game got overbloated with them.
Giving so many free solos/attachments along with the WC points made the game way bigger than it seemed.
Also, Dropzone came very close, as did SW properties.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Themes where nice until the game got overbloated with them.
Giving so many free solos/attachments along with the WC points made the game way bigger than it seemed.
Also, Dropzone came very close, as did SW properties.

You really notice it in the way WJPs play out these days. It used to be that your two jacks ate a point or two out of your list. Now you're leaving 2-3 points on the table because you've got enough WJPs to start into a third jack but really don't want that many in the list.

I quite like themes, but I think the game would flow better at 50 points. The main issue is just that the scenarios are absolutely miserable at anything short of 75.

 LunarSol wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Themes where nice until the game got overbloated with them.
Giving so many free solos/attachments along with the WC points made the game way bigger than it seemed.
Also, Dropzone came very close, as did SW properties.

You really notice it in the way WJPs play out these days. It used to be that your two jacks ate a point or two out of your list. Now you're leaving 2-3 points on the table because you've got enough WJPs to start into a third jack but really don't want that many in the list.

I quite like themes, but I think the game would flow better at 50 points. The main issue is just that the scenarios are absolutely miserable at anything short of 75.

What makes you think scenarios are miserable at lower points levels ? It's not my experience at all, maybe bar two most spread out ones.
Check this discussion: https://lormahordes.freeforums.net/post/145970/thread

Also, Brawlmachine (the format of the future IMO, if there's any future for WM&H at all) has its own scenarios.

Cyel wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Themes where nice until the game got overbloated with them.
Giving so many free solos/attachments along with the WC points made the game way bigger than it seemed.
Also, Dropzone came very close, as did SW properties.

You really notice it in the way WJPs play out these days. It used to be that your two jacks ate a point or two out of your list. Now you're leaving 2-3 points on the table because you've got enough WJPs to start into a third jack but really don't want that many in the list.

I quite like themes, but I think the game would flow better at 50 points. The main issue is just that the scenarios are absolutely miserable at anything short of 75.

What makes you think scenarios are miserable at lower points levels ? It's not my experience at all, maybe bar two most spread out ones.
Check this discussion: https://lormahordes.freeforums.net/post/145970/thread

Also, Brawlmachine (the format of the future IMO, if there's any future for WM&H at all) has its own scenarios.

I just find that covering the scenario leads to armies spread too thin. One side ends up collapsing and there's little opportunity to come back. I find its far more likely that someone has to choose between running their army to die or lose immediately at 50.

marxlives wrote:Don't really see an issue with the theme machine since it helps new players navigate a huge SKU, but having gotten newbs to table top gaming at all into RQ and Monsterpocalypse and probably Warcaster too, is that Warmachine is a 3rd ed. d20 based wargame that places too much math in front of the dice, while their other games which are growing put the math behind the dice. I think they would have to make Warmachine operate more like their other games (and yes with speciality dice) to keep the game from getting sh%$ rules like GW games, but still keep the math behind the dice. If the math is behind the dice, if SKU just becomes options.

As I said, it was viewed to replicate the mistakes of 40K's Formations. A bunch of new rules for free along with free models. There was a lot of bad tastes in people mouths as a result.

I think the Themes are great for guiding purchases, but the sku lists are rarely set up to reflect that in the stores, either online or in the b&ms.

marxlives wrote:The strike system in their other games, especially Warcaster is way more fluid than "My MAT is X, what is your Def? Oh okay so that means I have to roll (quick math for people who are not lifelong gamers or engineers) a 9?" Don't get me wrong, this was revolutionary in its day but with the market shifting from hardcore gamers to casuals, strike system allows competitive play and is ridiculously easy for new players.

I'm sorry, but that's low level math that my 2nd and 3rd grade children did last year. It is not the mathematics of engineers. There's more math involved in positioning without measuring than there is in the differential. If one can't handle this level of math, than they're probably broke from over-spending at the store and shouldn't be allowed near sharp objects like modelling knives.

marxlives wrote:That said, if PP died tomorrow it would be a HUGE loss for the hobby. Can you think of any independently owned IP that even comes close to 40k or AoS? That would be a bad sign not just for PP but the industry as a whole. PP has taken alot of hits and some through poor decisions but can anyone even think of any other non-licensed IP that comes close to PP? Even Infinity, is very small outside of EU.

The only one I know of at present is Fantasy Flight Games who are riding the Star Wars whale, and maybe the Batman game and Marvel Crisis Protocol, but as you said, they're licensed as well. Everybody else is considered niche, no matter how good Infinity, Bolt Action, or Malifaux are taken.

Cyel wrote:Also, Brawlmachine (the format of the future IMO, if there's any future for WM&H at all) has its own scenarios.

Yeah, and Brawlmachine might not fly because its not in PP's documentation. Maybe once the game stores are allowed/willing to have gaming in their stores again, it might start taking off, but it's too early to tell. I know having scenarios for smaller games may have helped me out last year. Trying to run against a 75 point scenario with 25 points is a challenge for a "new" player.

Unless Brawlmachine is an official format and promoted by PP, it's not going to save warmachine. It'll end up yet another insular thing by small groups.

 Charistoph wrote:

marxlives wrote:The strike system in their other games, especially Warcaster is way more fluid than "My MAT is X, what is your Def? Oh okay so that means I have to roll (quick math for people who are not lifelong gamers or engineers) a 9?" Don't get me wrong, this was revolutionary in its day but with the market shifting from hardcore gamers to casuals, strike system allows competitive play and is ridiculously easy for new players.

I'm sorry, but that's low level math that my 2nd and 3rd grade children did last year. It is not the mathematics of engineers. There's more math involved in positioning without measuring than there is in the differential. If one can't handle this level of math, than they're probably broke from over-spending at the store and shouldn't be allowed near sharp objects like modelling knives.

That is a very insulting thing to say.
Its not that the math is hard, it isnt, its the the math is done under pressure(Clock, opponent pressure, pressure from the game in general) that can cause people to slip and or take a moment especially if they are tired.
IT isnt hard math, but something done under stress can become hard, like a test.
Which is why games now use custome dice more, at a glance you can see if you got a hit, crit or blank

 Vertrucio wrote:
Unless Brawlmachine is an official format and promoted by PP, it's not going to save warmachine. It'll end up yet another insular thing by small groups.

Well, it seems that the fact that the format has been prepared by well-respected guys from LOS/WM University is enough of a legitimisation for many players. I keep encountering opinions of players delighted with the format. For example check comments under this MrMalorian video:


CLICK


Including the designer of the format :

We receive quite literally a dozen messages a day from people expressing how much fun they're having and how fast their meta is growing with returning players and new players who are enjoying this format over the drive to get to 75, and I think that says a lot about the potential right there.

Standard 75pts 2 lists apparently isn't the way to play if the game is to be popular - the evidence is all around in dying metas. I am happy that WM&H communities are more and more ready to accept good ideas even if they aren't official and that the stance "only official matters and PP are gods of design" is heard les and less.

hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

marxlives wrote:The strike system in their other games, especially Warcaster is way more fluid than "My MAT is X, what is your Def? Oh okay so that means I have to roll (quick math for people who are not lifelong gamers or engineers) a 9?" Don't get me wrong, this was revolutionary in its day but with the market shifting from hardcore gamers to casuals, strike system allows competitive play and is ridiculously easy for new players.

I'm sorry, but that's low level math that my 2nd and 3rd grade children did last year. It is not the mathematics of engineers. There's more math involved in positioning without measuring than there is in the differential. If one can't handle this level of math, than they're probably broke from over-spending at the store and shouldn't be allowed near sharp objects like modelling knives.

That is a very insulting thing to say.
Its not that the math is hard, it isnt, its the the math is done under pressure(Clock, opponent pressure, pressure from the game in general) that can cause people to slip and or take a moment especially if they are tired.
IT isnt hard math, but something done under stress can become hard, like a test.
Which is why games now use custome dice more, at a glance you can see if you got a hit, crit or blank

Well, it's not like ENGINEERS are under constant pressure to do such math in their head in a second's notice. They spend numerous hours checking their calculations, to say nothing about having calculators to process most of that information that is far more complex as an arithmetic stream.

So if you think it is insulting, maybe you shouldn't be making such insulting comparisons.

I never mad comparisons to engineers, you did.

hotsauceman1 wrote:I never mad comparisons to engineers, you did.

No, I did not. I was countering it. This is what I quoted:

marxlives wrote:The strike system in their other games, especially Warcaster is way more fluid than "My MAT is X, what is your Def? Oh okay so that means I have to roll (quick math for people who are not lifelong gamers or engineers) a 9?" Don't get me wrong, this was revolutionary in its day but with the market shifting from hardcore gamers to casuals, strike system allows competitive play and is ridiculously easy for new players.

I now notice you weren't the one I had quoted, though.

 Vertrucio wrote:
Unless Brawlmachine is an official format and promoted by PP, it's not going to save warmachine. It'll end up yet another insular thing by small groups.

But sometimes thats enough, locally the wmh playerbase consists of myself and two other chaps who due to work commitments (and us being old) tend to have to leave club nights early meaning a fair few 75pt games remain unfinished

This smaller format might be good for us, although I see my fav caster, Krueger 2, is already on banned list and Morvhana 2 is on the watch list, meenies

I personally think what needs to happen is the game needs to actually be 75Pts, No free Solos, no free Warjack Points.
Just make the game actually represent what it is. It can be a midsize skrimish game.
Also, lets take a look at DEF and MAt and why it is a bad system now
Put simply it requires you to know your opponents models aswell as yours. When attacking, you had to ask or somehow know how to hit your opponent. Its the D&D system, but that has the benifit of being relaxed.
When i play legion all i really need to know is what kinda dice do they roll red or white, boom thats all, but even then that doesnt matter that much or effect on how many hits i might get.