What could make Death Guard competitive?

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**Khornate25**

After reading Blood of Asaheim and Storm Caller and being a Necron and Space Wolves players, here are some changes I'd like for DG:

Units.
-One more wound for Plague Marines, Blightlords and Deathshrouds and other MEQ. They should be extremely hard to kill. After reading Blood of Asaheim and Storm Caller, I truly believe that this would make them not only more competitive, but also more akin to their fluff.
-Disgustingly resilient army wide. Everything should be harder to kill. That's the Nurgle theme.
-Fuse the chaos lord aura ability and the lord of contagion statline and equipment. It makes no sense to have these two seperated. As it is right now, either you have a decently melee killer or a buffing commander for blightlords. It pains to have to choose between the two.
-Plague Surgeon should give +1 to disgustingly resilient, just like crypteks give +1 to reanimation protocols. Should also have access to something like healing balms that the wolf priests have.

Relics
-Relics of the DG should focus on two things : making things harder to kill and dealing or triggering mortal wounds. Saddly, I have no inspiration for this.

Stratagems.
-Drawing inspiration from SW, I think a stratagems giving Deathsrouds and Blightlords +1 to wound during the fight phase would be could.
-A stratagem allowing to reroll for failed disgustingly resilient rolls for one phase.
-A stratagem that would trigger additionnal mortal wounds on a role of 6 for plague weapons.
-A stratagem allowing plague weapons to wound non-vehicles target for one phase on 4+

Psychic Powers
-I seriously was disappointed as to why most of the offensive psychic power required, after the psychic test, to roll an additionnal dice to trigger most effects on 5's and 6's. It makes most of them useless offensive wise. Maybe trigger the effects on 4+ or just remove the second roll ?

General equipment.
-Blight Launchers : make them range 30''
-Plague Belcher and Plague Spewer : make them poisened weapons.
-Great Plague Clever : make it an option for the Champion

**ArcaneHorror**

In the CSM and DG codex, you can see in the picture of the Chaos Lord, he is holding a flail, but he can't use it in-game. I think that he should be allowed to have access to more of these special, PM-only weapons.

**Nurglitch**

Hard to kill is boring. You need something that lets players leverage their agency rather than a step-stool for the army to stand on.

**Moonknight**

I think a points reduction would help a lot. Also I think DG needs more heavy weapons options

**ZergSmasher**

I've said it before in other threads, but DG really need better Stratagem support. The ones they have now are simply not adequate. Also, I think things like Chaos Lords and Possessed, and possibly even Helbrutes should get Disgustingly Resilient. That could get obnoxious on the FW stuff though, as Leviathans are already borderline broken I think (and I say that as the owner of a Leviathan for my Dark Angels).

Terminators in general should get a rule that reduces all incoming damage by 1 to a minimum of 1. All Termies in the game should get this, both Loyalist and Chaos (and maybe even Ork MANz too). Might actually make them more relevant and able to take hits that would kill other 2W models while not making them ridiculously OP vs. massed small arms.

It'll be interesting to see what Psychic Awakening does for our pestilent Marine buddies. Probably 7 different subfaction traits with unique relics, warlord traits, and strats. Among other things.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Fhanados wrote:
The debate on whether or not Death Guard should be rolled back into the Chaos Space Marine codex seems to have gotten a lot of air time in this thread.

For whatever reason GW decided that Death Guard would become their own sub-faction. I found the choice of legion odd for a sub faction, but they did it. Like it or not, Death Guard now have their own ruleset separate from the Chaos Space Marine Codex. I don’t think anyone is arguing that it hasn’t aged well, the entire point of this thread is to figure out how to bring them on-par with more modern factions. So the general idea is that if we put Death Guard back in the Chaos Marine codex and grant them access to all the fun generic stuff they’re fixed right? I really disagree - I don’t think putting them back in the main CSM codex will fix them as a faction.

Death Guard have 14 unique units that they’ve never had before. What are to become of those? Sure, some like the Lord of Contagion could just be weapons options for an existing character such as the Terminator Lord but what about the Biologis Putrifier? The Tallyman? The Plague Surgeon? Do we now make generic versions of these available to all Chaos Marines? Do we keep them as Death Guard exclusive? Or do we delete them from existence?

Let’s say we keep all of them. Let’s be generous and make them available to any Legions or Renegades that can take NURGLE. Now we’ve created an imbalance in favour of Undivided and Nurgle forces, while Khorne, Slaanesh and Tzeentch ones get nothing out of it.

Ok scrap that idea – Death Guard keep their toys. But now they have everyone else’s toys too! Dark Apostles, Forgefiends, Raptors, Bikes, Lord Discordant, Warpsmith. The lot. Now the codex is imbalanced in favour of Death Guard specifically.

Another thing I’ve seen suggested is that somehow roll the +1T and Disgustingly Resilient into their Legion Trait so that vanilla units are more “plague-mariney”. Ok sure now we have T6 bikers, Obliterators and Havocs with DR. Why would anyone ever take a Legion OTHER than Death Guard at this point? I’ve played Chaos since 3rd edition and the Mark of Nurgle has almost ALWAYS been the superior option. I don’t want Death Guard to become the new Mark of Nurgle. I say this as a current Death Guard player!

I do think the omission of certain things have hurt us, but I’m happy to have our own Codex. I believe a rework of our support Characters and some new stratagems is really all we need. Obliterators would be nice though…

Imagine thinking that the Tallyman, Putrifier, and Surgeon were somehow something that should've been made to begin with LOL. They're all bad models and don't do anything of worth.

**Fergie0044**

Bosskelot wrote:
Fergie0044 wrote:

Plaguecaster - Buff them so know three powers and have 2 denies. (Note - to stop them being too similar to the now nurgleified sorcerers)

They already know 3 powers, unless you mean having 3 casts which seems a bit OTT for an army/faction that is not known to have any special psyker focus. 3 casts and 2 denies is Eldrad level.

No, not three castings. Just that they know an extra power for more flexibility. The aim was to try and make the Plaguecaster and the Sorcerer different;
So the sorcerer has the advantage of choosing powers from two disciplines, while the Plaguecaster has more powers to chose from when casting in game. Both still have 2 casts though, but I gave the Plaguecaster an extra deny.

**Ishagu**

Death Guard are due a Psychic Awakening supplement in the near future.

Looking at how TS were improved, and how great the rules for Alpha Legion are, as an example, there's plenty to be excited about.

**Fergie0044**

Ishagu wrote:
Death Guard are due a Psychic Awakening supplement in the near future.

Looking at how TS were improved, and how great the rules for Alpha Legion are, as an example, there's plenty to be excited about.

Cautious optimism is my watch word for PA. Sure, a better legion trait (via the 7 plague companies which we can be pretty certain will have rules) and let's say 7 good stratagems could give us a real shot in the arm, but we won't be getting the total re-structure that the codex needs to be competitive. Being elevated to 'middle of the pack' status is the best we can hope for from PA, although I'd love to be wrong.

**Jidmah**

Ishagu wrote:
Death Guard are due a Psychic Awakening supplement in the near future.

Looking at how TS were improved, and how great the rules for Alpha Legion are, as an example, there's plenty to be excited about.

GW has taught me over the last 10 years that PA might as well ruin DG and make them unplayable for the next years.

I prefer enjoying small gains over getting hopes crushed.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Ishagu wrote:
Death Guard are due a Psychic Awakening supplement in the near future.

Looking at how TS were improved, and how great the rules for Alpha Legion are, as an example, there's plenty to be excited about.

Thousand Sons weren't really improved.

**Fergie0044**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ishagu wrote:
Death Guard are due a Psychic Awakening supplement in the near future.

Looking at how TS were improved, and how great the rules for Alpha Legion are, as an example, there's plenty to be excited about.

Thousand Sons weren't really improved.

Not from a tournament level point of view, but they got a bunch more options and some good stratagems. I also really liked the philosophy behind their update - the focus of a lot of the new things was to make Rubics and Scarab Occult more viable. Hopefully this wasn't just chance and someone at GW is aware that a TS army shouldn't just be Sorcerers and Tzaangors. And I really hope the same people are aware that a DG army shouldn't be only deamon engines!

**Wibe**

Grey Knights went from being on of two factions with a lower winrate than DG into one of the most competitive armies after they got their PA (inquisition being the only faction with a worse winrate atm).
So there is hope, but I think DG will be merely a sideshow in their PA, considering how many factions being crammed into it.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Fergie0044 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ishagu wrote:
Death Guard are due a Psychic Awakening supplement in the near future.

Looking at how TS were improved, and how great the rules for Alpha Legion are, as an example, there's plenty to be excited about.

Thousand Sons weren't really improved.

Not from a tournament level point of view, but they got a bunch more options and some good stratagems. I also really liked the philosophy behind their update - the focus of a lot of the new things was to make Rubics and Scarab Occult more viable. Hopefully this wasn't just chance and someone at GW is aware that a TS army shouldn't just be Sorcerers and Tzaangors. And I really hope the same people are aware that a DG army shouldn't be only deamon engines!

You mean those Strats that are only ever affecting one unit at a time? LOL k you can think that. The truth is they aren't better even at casual levels.

**strigops**

The current problem of the Death guard is that the codex was biult over 2 different phylosophies: the death guard one (slow and durable with focus on shooting) andd the one gw has for chaos (melee with minor shooting) result was that death guard excels in CC but has little ways to shorten the gap, and does only minor damage outside of it. I guess our durability should have allowed us the endure the footslogging, but that is no longer the case.

This leaves gw with two ways to fix this:
1) boost our shooting, removing our need to footslog.
2) give us ways to get in melee. Just boosting our durability wont work tought, becuase people can just kite us. We need something to close the gap.

**DrGiggles**

strigops wrote:
The current problem of the Death guard is that the codex was biult over 2 different phylosophies: the death guard one (slow and durable with focus on shooting) andd the one gw has for chaos (melee with minor shooting) result was that death guard excels in CC but has little ways to shorten the gap, and does only minor damage outside of it. I guess our durability should have allowed us the endure the footslogging, but that is no longer the case.

This leaves gw with two ways to fix this:
1) boost our shooting, removing our need to footslog.
2) give us ways to get in melee. Just boosting our durability wont work tought, becuase people can just kite us. We need something to close the gap.

I get what you are saying with point 2, but there is only so far for the enemy to move before they hit the board edge. Plus, if they have to keep falling further back into their deployment zone to stay out of melee then you are probably winning on objectives.

**AngryAngel80**

Jidmah wrote:
harlokin wrote:
Tycho wrote:

It's a pretty trivial thing to just add the Dark Hereticus powers into their book (there's no reason why any CSM army wouldn't have this as an option), and add a few of the missing units (I don't see why Oblits, Greater Possesed, or Masters of Possesion would be unfluffy ofr example).

Genuine question, but would Oblits be worthwhile without Endless Cacophony?

The provide a kind of shooting DG are lacking right now, and they could move and shoot without penalties. I'd field them if I could.

Late to the party but I had started collecting a DG list awhile back, Oblits were going to be my infantry heavy fire power. Imagine my glee when they weren't in the DG codex. Here I thought they fit the theme of the DG, mobile, aggressive fire power, they even have a virus, even if it isn't a nurgle specific one. It really made my collecting feel like it was worthless when the codex came out missing them as an option. Still haven't picked up a pair of PBCs yet but maybe I'll need to as lacking any fire support sucks.

**Not Online!!!**

I fail to see how the Oblits would do any good for DG, between lacking the raw output increase and some of the key support elements it's an overpriced Terminator.

**Jidmah**

It doesn't matter whether they are overpriced if there is no alternative.

**Not Online!!!**

Jidmah wrote:
It doesn't matter whether they are overpriced if there is no alternative.

i guess, but the slot oblits fill is dependant if they get the support to make the Alpha strike work via eliminating or tilting the randomness the gun has.
and when you get a 1/3 whiff chance for every off the 3 rolls for it's weapons that hurts kinda lot imo but i get where you are coming from.

**Gadzilla666**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
It doesn't matter whether they are overpriced if there is no alternative.

i guess, but the slot oblits fill is dependant if they get the support to make the Alpha strike work via eliminating or tilting the randomness the gun has.
and when you get a 1/3 whiff chance for every off the 3 rolls for it's weapons that hurts kinda lot imo but i get where you are coming from.

It's also possible that War of the Spider could give DG something that would help support obliterators. Though it's unfortunately unlikely that they'll be added to the dg army list in a pa book. That's the kind of thing that only happens to loyalists.

**AngryAngel80**

I mean if they are useless, why take them away ? They still fill the niche of mobile if chaotic fire power. They were still my choice for fire support as I wanted a heavy infantry focus for the fire power.

So long as you can have them nurgle they could have support elements for re rolls of one. If they were in the book maybe they'd have some things augment them as they do for chaos marines, something, like letting them re roll ones to wound for instance.

To be honest, points over costed doesn't matter as much to me as this was a fluff project, having dead models in my collection sucks more than not being the best choice. For now to use them I have to fork out more money on base chaos units and another codex, or just pick up PBCs to fill a role I had for them. Which the PBCs don't hit real well and also are somewhat chaotic in their output.

As is the only alternatives to range is Defiler, which I don't like, predators which I don't have for them and lack the DG flavor with no DR, or Brutes which while they can use the chapter rules for mobile fire power won't last very long either. Speaking core codex of course.

Heck I'd love even plague havocs but they don't have that either.

**Moonknight**

A big help would be a strat that let's us deepstrike infantry units closer than 9" like a 4" deepstrike

**BrainFireBob**

Random idea. How about Plague Weapons having improving AP or damage over time?

Turn 1-2, D1
Turn 3-4, D2
Turn 5-6, D3. Or D2+1 mortal if a save is failed

Or an AP increase

Call it "Progressive infections"

**Jidmah**

That wouldn't really help, outside of blight launchers and plague mortars, all plague weapons are melee or flamer.

**AngryAngel80**

It would be cool if we had more plague shooting though that wasn't like a booger or some snot bombs.

**Not Online!!!**

AngryAngel80 wrote:
It would be cool if we had more plague shooting though that wasn't like a booger or some snot bombs.

Seriously missed opportunity imo for Bio chemical weaponry...

But we need more plague melee weapons

**AngryAngel80**

Yes we need more crusty yellow toe nail blades. Jokes aside they do need some bio laced guns, like plague bolts, spice up the armory some and make it pop a bit more. Always felt odd to me they are so gross, yet their bolts were the same as every other marine when they are literally dripping into their gun, like parts of their body are melting into their gun, but no its not plague shooting at all, that would be silly.

**Moonknight**

If the putrefier buffed all plague weapons instead of just grenade would make him useful