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They should definitely have 3 wounds minimum. I always look at them and wonder why only 2 wounds?

Table wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Less than a third is usable. You can pretend it is, but in reality it's just a bunch of bloat that does little for the core army. Speaking of which, core Thousand Son armies didn't change, probably because nothing much of value was added!

I know this is a few days late and dangerously off topic but I feel I need to prove my statement about 1k PA. I will list the following things that have made a huge impact on the 1ksons.
An extra cast per turn or smite.
Psychic powers we got that are top tier are : Time Flux, Warp Reality, Seeded Strategy, Sorc Facade (which is unreal and fun to use. gets down right abusive with forgeworld). So we have 4 of 9 being beastly. And the only really bad ones outright is Attempted Possession and possibly Astral Blast. The others have uses depending on circumstance.

Things stay just as good with our new stratagems. Infernal Fusillade is bonkers for its price. Magister is great but should have been two extra warlord traits not one. Regardless its still top notch. Sorc infusion rounds it out for the top tier. Adepts (never peril if you have CP) and Indomitable foes are also close to top tier.

Then we have the new warlord traits which we did suffer from. The only real standout is Duplic tact which is so damn good. We have a few really really bad ones here.

As for relics, the Capricious Crest can net you a extra d6 smite damage if used on Magnus (d3 on DPs and sorcs) OR outright cause a power to not manifest and possibly peril if used on your opponent. Perfidious Tome is also insane. The hourglass and Pythic are situational but great if the conditions are met.

Id say we are a bit above 1/3rd on our PA. You should re-read it or try them out in play to see just how good the things I have listed are. As for hijacking this thread from the death guard I apologize and this will be my last post on the subject of 1ksons and PA.

Honestly I can't take you seriously since you said Internal Fusillade, of all things, was "bonkers". I've already read the rules for Thousand Sons and what they got. What they got was extremely tame and overall not helpful.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Table wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Less than a third is usable. You can pretend it is, but in reality it's just a bunch of bloat that does little for the core army. Speaking of which, core Thousand Son armies didn't change, probably because nothing much of value was added!

I know this is a few days late and dangerously off topic but I feel I need to prove my statement about 1k PA. I will list the following things that have made a huge impact on the 1ksons.
An extra cast per turn or smite.
Psychic powers we got that are top tier are : Time Flux, Warp Reality, Seeded Strategy, Sorc Facade (which is unreal and fun to use. gets down right abusive with forgeworld). So we have 4 of 9 being beastly. And the only really bad ones outright is Attempted Possession and possibly Astral Blast. The others have uses depending on circumstance.

Things stay just as good with our new stratagems. Infernal Fusillade is bonkers for its price. Magister is great but should have been two extra warlord traits not one. Regardless its still top notch. Sorc infusion rounds it out for the top tier. Adepts (never peril if you have CP) and Indomitable foes are also close to top tier.

Then we have the new warlord traits which we did suffer from. The only real standout is Duplic tact which is so damn good. We have a few really really bad ones here.

As for relics, the Capricious Crest can net you a extra d6 smite damage if used on Magnus (d3 on DPs and sorcs) OR outright cause a power to not manifest and possibly peril if used on your opponent. Perfidious Tome is also insane. The hourglass and Pythic are situational but great if the conditions are met.

Id say we are a bit above 1/3rd on our PA. You should re-read it or try them out in play to see just how good the things I have listed are. As for hijacking this thread from the death guard I apologize and this will be my last post on the subject of 1ksons and PA.

Honestly I can't take you seriously since you said Internal Fusillade, of all things, was "bonkers". I've already read the rules for Thousand Sons and what they got. What they got was extremely tame and overall not helpful.

Shooting twice for 1 cp is bonkers. Double the firepower? One CP? Sign me up. And at this point, and im not even sure you have ever played or played against 1ksons. I mean giving each psykers 3 manifests is worth the price of admission alone. But you do you. I mean your unwillingness to address anything I type because of (arbitrary reason) makes the discussion moot at this point. I have provided many examples to back up my claim and you have yet to provide one.

As for DG. How about a army wide -1 to hit? This combined with DR could do the trick. Maybe? Another problem I have, and this bleeds into 1ksons and Emp children as well, is that our load outs are not custom. Why dont 1kson helbrutes use inferno rounds. Why are EC dreadnoughts not sporting noise weapons? Why are not DG hell brutes sporting plague weapons and or blight launchers? Its pure laziness on GW's part.

Sorry for the edits. Trying to be diplomatic. Probably failing.

Army-wide -1 to hit is a broken mechanic and should not be given to anyone ever again.

The reason why helbrutes have no plague weapons is simply because of the "no model, no rules" issue.

Table wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Table wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Less than a third is usable. You can pretend it is, but in reality it's just a bunch of bloat that does little for the core army. Speaking of which, core Thousand Son armies didn't change, probably because nothing much of value was added!

I know this is a few days late and dangerously off topic but I feel I need to prove my statement about 1k PA. I will list the following things that have made a huge impact on the 1ksons.
An extra cast per turn or smite.
Psychic powers we got that are top tier are : Time Flux, Warp Reality, Seeded Strategy, Sorc Facade (which is unreal and fun to use. gets down right abusive with forgeworld). So we have 4 of 9 being beastly. And the only really bad ones outright is Attempted Possession and possibly Astral Blast. The others have uses depending on circumstance.

Things stay just as good with our new stratagems. Infernal Fusillade is bonkers for its price. Magister is great but should have been two extra warlord traits not one. Regardless its still top notch. Sorc infusion rounds it out for the top tier. Adepts (never peril if you have CP) and Indomitable foes are also close to top tier.

Then we have the new warlord traits which we did suffer from. The only real standout is Duplic tact which is so damn good. We have a few really really bad ones here.

As for relics, the Capricious Crest can net you a extra d6 smite damage if used on Magnus (d3 on DPs and sorcs) OR outright cause a power to not manifest and possibly peril if used on your opponent. Perfidious Tome is also insane. The hourglass and Pythic are situational but great if the conditions are met.

Id say we are a bit above 1/3rd on our PA. You should re-read it or try them out in play to see just how good the things I have listed are. As for hijacking this thread from the death guard I apologize and this will be my last post on the subject of 1ksons and PA.

Honestly I can't take you seriously since you said Internal Fusillade, of all things, was "bonkers". I've already read the rules for Thousand Sons and what they got. What they got was extremely tame and overall not helpful.

Shooting twice for 1 cp is bonkers. Double the firepower? One CP? Sign me up. And at this point, and im not even sure you have ever played or played against 1ksons. I mean giving each psykers 3 manifests is worth the price of admission alone. But you do you. I mean your unwillingness to address anything I type because of (arbitrary reason) makes the discussion moot at this point. I have provided many examples to back up my claim and you have yet to provide one.

As for DG. How about a army wide -1 to hit? This combined with DR could do the trick. Maybe? Another problem I have, and this bleeds into 1ksons and Emp children as well, is that our load outs are not custom. Why dont 1kson helbrutes use inferno rounds. Why are EC dreadnoughts not sporting noise weapons? Why are not DG hell brutes sporting plague weapons and or blight launchers? Its pure laziness on GW's part.

Sorry for the edits. Trying to be diplomatic. Probably failing.

Shooting twice on something like Rubrics and Scarabs is something you can basically ignore, hence why I'm unable to take this conversation seriously. Shooting twice is good when you're already good at shooting.

WhiteDog wrote:

Siegfriedfr wrote:
One page of stratagem was the good design. A truckload of them for other factions was the wrong one.

Not particularly hopeful 9th will be better on that front, this stratagem bloat is probably awesome from a competitive point of view, since it offers new tactical options.

You are totally right, one page of stratagem for each keyword. But they need to add a few more universal stratagem, and change the command point generation so that it is generated each turn.
Some of the things I'm reading here makes no sense really. You really think a 4+ FNP and 2W min is balanced ? This would make DG absolutly horrendous to play against, available to just wash off most of the things your opponent can throw at you.

As with everything, price is key (And what they pay to be so resilient). You can have custodes with 3W 2+/3++ and -1 to hit for not that much more than an actual blightlord terminator. But they are footsloging slow units without any kind of firepower. You can balance a good, tought, small elite version of Deathguard without a problem. And that could make actually viable having a infantry heavy list that walks across the board supported by artillery.

Army-wide -1 to hit is a broken mechanic and should not be given to anyone ever again.

Agreed on this. A few -1's here and there under the right conditions is cool and fluffy, but I'd hate to be someone like an Ork player, battling someone with an army-wide -1 to hit. No thank you!

As with everything, price is key (And what they pay to be so resilient). You can have custodes with 3W 2+/3++ and -1 to hit for not that much more than an actual blightlord terminator. But they are footsloging slow units without any kind of firepower. You can balance a good, tought, small elite version of Deathguard without a problem. And that could make actually viable having a infantry heavy list that walks across the board supported by artillery.

Exactly. A power-armor focused DG army is never going to be a large force, so upping the durability in the ways that have been suggested really isn't going to be game-breaking in your average competitive setting. Especially if some of those buffs also require a mono-DG build. Plus, again, we're not talking about a squad of 7 guys that can move 12" a turn, have a ton of offensive output AND have durability. We're talking about a unit that is really slow, and doesn't hit that hard. These things balance each other.

In terms of other thoughts - how does everyone feel about Lords of Contagion? I kind of feel like they're a slightly better version of a Mutilator (IE almost useless instead of totally useless) a classic Gdubs trope - really strong in cc, with almost no way to get there reliably. I've toyed many times with running him alongside the BellBoy, but it's not quite enough of a boost. Ideally, he'd be a great Distraction Carnifex, but as he is, he's just too slow even for that. Any thoughts on getting him stuck in a little easier, or giving some other abilities or options that would make him more game-ready in a competitive sense?

Tycho wrote:
Plus, again, we're not talking about a squad of 7 guys that can move 12" a turn, have a ton of offensive output AND have durability.

Yeah, that would be crazy. I mean... who would design a unit like that...


Looks at Shining spears on the distance

Yeah, that would be crazy. I mean... who would design a unit like that...


Looks at Shining spears on the distance

you got me ...

low-key salt successfully detected

Tycho wrote:
In terms of other thoughts - how does everyone feel about Lords of Contagion? I kind of feel like they're a slightly better version of a Mutilator (IE almost useless instead of totally useless) a classic Gdubs trope - really strong in cc, with almost no way to get there reliably. I've toyed many times with running him alongside the BellBoy, but it's not quite enough of a boost. Ideally, he'd be a great Distraction Carnifex, but as he is, he's just too slow even for that. Any thoughts on getting him stuck in a little easier, or giving some other abilities or options that would make him more game-ready in a competitive sense?

Right now, if you really want to make him work, you can deep strike him onto something that doesn't want to move and hope for a successful charge. To make him worth your time he either needs to be so cheap that he passes als cheapest possible HQ tax, or give him an aura that buffs nearby units in a meaningful way, like re-rolling hits.
In general, I think the gift of nurgle aura should trigger at the start of each fight phase (like Mortarion's aura), same for the living plague warlord trait. As it works now, it basically never does anything.

Another idea would be making "Gift of Nurgle" buff pox walkers, and turn Tyhus' "Host of the Destroyer Hive" into a more powerful version of gift of nurgle, for example triggering on a 2+.

Right now, if you really want to make him work, you can deep strike him onto something that doesn't want to move and hope for a successful charge. To make him worth your time he either needs to be so cheap that he passes als cheapest possible HQ tax, or give him an aura that buffs nearby units in a meaningful way, like re-rolling hits.
In general, I think the gift of nurgle aura should trigger at the start of each fight phase (like Mortarion's aura), same for the living plague warlord trait. As it works now, it basically never does anything.

Another idea would be making "Gift of Nurgle" buff pox walkers, and turn Tyhus' "Host of the Destroyer Hive" into a more powerful version of gift of nurgle, for example triggering on a 2+.

I feel that's a good approach. I've generally given up on hoping to get a charge off with a standard Lord as, even with teleporting, he's just so easy to walk away from, but walking Typhus along with a big gaggle of Poxwalkers can be pretty good. If all Lords of Contagion did that, and we just made the Typhus version slightly better (maybe it's better buffs, maybe it's the same buffs but with a bigger aura), that would make them a lot more useful.

Lords of contagion could give all poxwalkers buffs to S and T and typhus add a +1A on top of that.

 Galas wrote:
Lords of contagion could give all poxwalkers buffs to S and T and typhus add a +1A on top of that.

I'd rather make him more unique, he is like 40pts cheaper than Typhus but isn't a psyker and doesn't do any buffing whatsoever.

I'd give him re-rolls of 1 and give DEATH GUARD TERMINATORS +1 to charge or +1 to wound in the fight phase. That or cut like 20 points off of him because right now he just doesn't have a good role since he has no way to reliably get into combat after deepstriking and doesn't buff anything.

I think he meant that they get Typhus' Aura and Typhus gets a +1A aura instead.

But I also like the idea of having him make terminators more liable - that would instantly make Deathshrouds viable as well.

 Jidmah wrote:
I think he meant that they get Typhus' Aura and Typhus gets a +1A aura instead.

But I also like the idea of having him make terminators more liable - that would instantly make Deathshrouds viable as well.

That's what I was thinking, one simple change that helps 3+ units and can't be abused by soup.

DG need some serious buffs. The only faction with a worse winrate atm is inquisition...

If I were to buff the book as it is now:
Plaguemarines and terminators needs +1wound.
Bolters should be plague weapons, and no that won't be op even with arch contaminatior. It's still only ap0 S4.
Poxwalkers need bigger max unit size.
Blightbringer and putrifier should cost about 2/3 of what they do atm.
Surgeon should give all infantry reroll all failed DR
Foetide bloatdrones should cost the same as the PBC with flamers.
Bligthaulers are still too expensive
All vehicles in the cod x needs DR.
And for the Lord of contagion, maybe give it a undeniable deepstrike 7 more than away? Both for fluff and playability.

But with other potential buffs and new abilities, then it's hard to say.

Lots of good point

Something interesting I came up with would be giving Lords of Contagions Mortarion's -1T aura.
It's clearly meant to synergize with the many S5-7 weapons we have, but never really comes up due to the way Mortarion plays.

 Jidmah wrote:
Lots of good point

Something interesting I came up with would be giving Lords of Contagions Mortarion's -1T aura.
It's clearly meant to synergize with the many S5-7 weapons we have, but never really comes up due to the way Mortarion plays.

That would be a good change. They still need a better way to get him within 7" though. Maybe 9th will bring back the old deep strike rules so you can make a gamble and have it pay off.

Death Guard is/was my primary army in 8th so here are my thoughts. First, we have to address the elephant in the room: The design of 8th edition does not reward elite armies at all but bodies (AOS has a similar problem), so almost any army which is based around smaller but tougher units is at a disadvantage due to how they've designed the missions and objective capping. That's not a DG-specific problem though but it's a big reason why they are facing issues. Hopefully, 9th will fix that but I have my doubts and I don't really want to go the route AOS has with some armies where they count as more than one model (although I do think this might help vehicles and such).

So onto ideas/fixes for Death Guard:

First and foremost, the stratagems need a complete rework. Being an early Codex, Death Guard suffers greatly from what may have been the proto design for Stratagems where they appeared to be interesting extras but not the basis for an army which they seem to have evolved into where we are now and most of what you want/need is CP for stratagems because they are so powerful. I'm pretty sure Death Guard has the lowest, or one of the lowest, counts of stratagems in the game currently so that absolutely needs to be addressed.

Next, units. Plague Marines and all the terminators need +1 Wound. 5+++ DR sounds great on paper but in-game is pretty meaningless. Bolters being plague weapons I like and doesn't seem to do much harm. While we're at it all vehicles need 5+++ as well; this would go a long way to giving more options. A Helbrute, for example, is a really poor choice despite fitting in well with the army because they don't have DR so they are way less resilient than say a PBC or Bloat-Drone. A Helbrute with a 5+ DR save becomes a bit more interesting. Same with a Predator or Land Raider (which now IMHO would become actually useful). Poxwalkers I personally hate (because the game pushes using them over Plague Marines) but bare minimum unit size needs to be up to 40, at the very least 30. 20 is too few. I also think that Plaguebearers should count as being Death Guard for army purposes (i.e. taking them in the same detachment doesn't break allegiance) so you can bring daemons on without summoning or soup, but I don't see this really changing anything, and in any event, they would need some of the stratagems brought over from Chaos Daemons to make them useful. I feel that Death Guard should have Obliterators, but without EC they aren't even that great although DR Obliterators sound on paper like they'd be scary. I can't think of any real reason why DG doesn't have access to the Forgefiend/Maulerfiend so throw them in as well. The Lord Disco makes sense so I'd include him too since he didn't exist when DG was made. And that's another way to buff daemon engines (see more below) although you normally see him in a trio and I do wonder if what I outline below makes souping in DG overpowered, but it seems like they are moving away from that so let's hope/assume that 9th restricts soup so this won't benefit other than pure DG, which is what we want.

Next, our main vehicles, the daemon engines, suffer from being daemon engines by which I mean the 4+ to hit. That alone is enough to screw over the Blight-Hauler which is still expensive (although you can't really lower it that much, it should be priced around the same as a Helbrute) and wants you to bring 3 for the bonus alone, but more on him in a moment. The PBC is presented as our Vindicator equivalent (despite actually having Vindicators in the lore) but how do you see it used? As a bulldozer with not-flamers to offset the 4+ BS. So that alone is going to screw over daemon engines because a 4+ to hit is terrible. At bare minimum vehicles and Daemon Engines need to ignore moving and shooting penalties. In fact, with the way special rules are now let's make that the Death Guard army rule:

Creeping Death: All infantry, vehicles, and Helbrutes (likely not the keyword due to FW abuse but maybe) get DR, can move and shoot without penalty and rapid-fire weapons get it from 18" instead of 24". Units that already have DR can re-roll 1s or something like that (I don't want to give a +1 for obvious reasons). Cultists, of course, don't get this as per the new Chaos rule (Mere Mortals, I think it's called).

That makes daemon engines slightly better despite the 4+ probably not going away and gives vehicles and Helbrutes a bit more resiliency so you might see them since the main thing keeping them away is how easily they die. The Blight-Hauler is in a weird place because it's described as filling a similar role to havocs (which DG used to have, RIP 4 special weapon havocs) or Helbrutes (yet we get Helbrutes) but its weapon loadout is garbage because not only does it have a 4+ (improvable to 3+) to hit but each weapon has only one shot which is awful in the big picture. I'm not entirely sure how to fix these guys because you don't want them dirt cheap but as they stand if you give Helbrutes DR then they become completely outclassed since a Helbrute can actually hit stuff. So you don't necessarily want that either and I can't think of a good way to make them into a support unit (given their description of the stink cloud, they feel like they should be supporting Plague Marine infantry rather than be tank hunters) since they have no options so you can't just say swap X weapon for Y weapon; they need to have a Multi-melta and Missile Launcher. Also if we make move-and-fire baseline, it removes another benefit from them.

Next up, characters. Almost all of them are filler garbage that has no real purpose. Right away the Chaos Lord and Sorcerer need to either be removed completely or given DR. No ifs and or buts. There is no reason other than it being a lazy copy-paste job from the CSM version that they shouldn't have DR and I personally never field either simply because they don't feel like Death Guard by not having DR. I'd say keep the Lord (rename him to be one of the other Lord of X types that exist) and give him DR, but get rid of the Sorcerer (see why after this), keep the Terminator Sorc and give him DR. Now let the Malignant Plaguecaster pick from Dark Hereticus, Malefic or Contagion Disciplines (skip Malefic if you want, throwing it in here just because). The other characters aren't much better. Tallyman needs to have his CP regen actually be useful instead of herp derp Nurgle number is 7 so let's make it 7 silliness. Some people have said he should be a Dark Apostle but I don't recall reading anywhere that he fills that role or has prayers, I could have missed something. I wouldn't turn it away though as it gives him a role. Blightbringer (bell guy) should do something like give an actual + Movement speed buff, pretty similar to how Maggotkin in AOS can get ways to move faster than you'd expect despite being Nurgle. Surgeon needs to do something useful because he's less than worthless at the moment. I don't even remember if there's any other characters because they are so forgettable but you get the idea, they all need serious rework because they serve no useful purpose. The Lord of Contagion on paper is a beast but being slow as molasses has no way to get where he needs to, but I'm not sure how to fix that one.

That's some things that I feel off the top of my head would go towards fixing the army but a big problem is still that the game is currently rewarding you for having more bodies than your opponent, not better quality units, and until that changes than any sort of army which doesn't rely on hordes (unless they get ridiculously OP rules like the Marine revamp) is going to be at a disadvantage and I absolutely do not want Death Guard to be mostly poxwalkers and cultists with a few token Plague Marines.

The Tallyman should recover CP on a +7 in 2d6 and give some other kind of aura buff.

The Surgeon should give a reroll 1 and 2 on DR and then be able to resurrect units like an Aphotecary.

The Bell Guy should give the 2d6 to advance and pick highest plus +1 to advance and charge rolls.

But I disagree the game favours hordes. The horde meta is long gone, we can see it on the top lists and top tables. The games favours good units, no matter what they are. Sometimes they are giant things like Castellans, other times they are hordes, other elite infantry, etc... the meta changes and adaptes.

Wayniac wrote:
The Blight-Hauler is in a weird place because it's described as filling a similar role to havocs (which DG used to have, RIP 4 special weapon havocs) or Helbrutes (yet we get Helbrutes) but its weapon loadout is garbage because not only does it have a 4+ (improvable to 3+) to hit but each weapon has only one shot which is awful in the big picture. I'm not entirely sure how to fix these guys because you don't want them dirt cheap but as they stand if you give Helbrutes DR then they become completely outclassed since a Helbrute can actually hit stuff.

I'm not sure how much of a difference it would make, but I'd like to see their Tri-Lobe rule buffed so that it grants +1 to hit for each additional Hauler in the unit. That way, even though they would still be stuck with Multi-melta and Missile Launcher, a unit of three would hit on 2s, and a unit of two would still get some benefit.

I think they could also be given a cheap 'shoot again stratagem' without breaking the game.

Wayniac wrote:
I'm pretty sure Death Guard has the lowest, or one of the lowest, counts of stratagems in the game currently so that absolutely needs to be addressed.

We are tied with assassins for the least amount of stratagems in a codex

Poxwalkers I personally hate (because the game pushes using them over Plague Marines) but bare minimum unit size needs to be up to 40, at the very least 30. 20 is too few.

I've seen this tossed around a bit. Why?

The Lord Disco makes sense so I'd include him too since he didn't exist when DG was made.

Lord Discordant is a warpsmith though, and DG don't get warpsmiths. The master of possessions and the attached greater possessed and venom crawler would make a lot of sense fluff-wise though.

At bare minimum vehicles and Daemon Engines need to ignore moving and shooting penalties. In fact, with the way special rules are now let's make that the Death Guard army rule:

Yes, this. In the beginning of the edition extending our trait to all units might have been too powerful, but now it might be the offensive push we need.

Creeping Death: All infantry, vehicles, and Helbrutes (likely not the keyword due to FW abuse but maybe) get DR, can move and shoot without penalty and rapid-fire weapons get it from 18" instead of 24". Units that already have DR can re-roll 1s or something like that (I don't want to give a +1 for obvious reasons). Cultists, of course, don't get this as per the new Chaos rule (Mere Mortals, I think it's called).

Note that FW dreads can already get the DG trait right now and no one cares.

I would do it like this:
Inexorable Advance
If your army is Battle-forged, all units in DEATH GUARD Detachments except CHAOS CULTIST and POX WALKER units gain this ability. Such units do not suffer a penalty for moving and firing Heavy weapons, or for Advancing and firing Assault weapons. In addition, a unit with this ability can fire twice with Rapid Fire weapons at a range of 18", instead of only being able to fire twice with them up to half the weapon’s maximum range.

Creeping Death
If your army is Battle-forged and if every unit from your army has the NURGLE keyword, all DEATH GUARD units (except CHAOS CULTISTS) gain the Disgustingly Resilient ability. DEATH GUARD INFANTRY units that already have this ability get +1 to their rolls when rolling for their Disgustingly Resilient ability instead.

Tallyman needs to have his CP regen actually be useful instead of herp derp Nurgle number is 7 so let's make it 7 silliness.

The 7 things is actually quite clever, as the chance of rolling a 7 with 2d6 is exactly the same as rolling a 5+. It's basically fluff at the cost of nothing.
He should work for all stratagems though, not just DG.

Some people have said he should be a Dark Apostle but I don't recall reading anywhere that he fills that role or has prayers,

His Festering Zealot ability is the same as "Dark Zealotry" that Dark Apostles had, just with 7" range. His other ability is "The Seven-fold Chant", which means that he is actually chanting a prayer to get back CP.
Last, but not least, his models has this speaker thingy all apostles have.
So, yeah, it's pretty clear that the Tallyman is just a nurglyfied apostle.

I don't even remember if there's any other characters because they are so forgettable but you get the idea, they all need serious rework because they serve no useful purpose.

The other two are the foul blightspawn (flamer SAG) and the biologues putrifier (grenade combo dude). The former has seen lots of competitive play, the later is mostly suffering from plague marines not being good and could use a point drop. Both server a pretty clear purpose.

A 7 on 2d6 is actually equal to a 6+, not a 5+.

But a 7+ on 2d6 is close to a 60% rate, which is far too good.

You are correct, of course.

6+ to refund a stratagem is pretty much in line with what most armies get outside of relics or warlord traits.

 JNAProductions wrote:
A 7 on 2d6 is actually equal to a 6+, not a 5+.

But a 7+ on 2d6 is close to a 60% rate, which is far too good.

Not when its only usable while using DG stratagems.

 Wibe wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
A 7 on 2d6 is actually equal to a 6+, not a 5+.

But a 7+ on 2d6 is close to a 60% rate, which is far too good.

Not when its only usable while using DG stratagems.

With the current DG Strats? Maybe.

But are you going to tell me that you'd want that ability improved, but leave the Strats untouched?

I think part of the problem is how the Cult Legions are treated as "All Berserker Marines, All Noise Marines, All Plague Marines, All Rubric Marines" that has gone on for several editions.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Wibe wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
A 7 on 2d6 is actually equal to a 6+, not a 5+.

But a 7+ on 2d6 is close to a 60% rate, which is far too good.

Not when its only usable while using DG stratagems.

With the current DG Strats? Maybe.

But are you going to tell me that you'd want that ability improved, but leave the Strats untouched?

I did not say that, but it would make him a little bit better, and still no where near to being competitive. DG would not even be close to competitive with unlimited DG-only stratagem points they way things stand at the moment.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I think part of the problem is how the Cult Legions are treated as "All Berserker Marines, All Noise Marines, All Plague Marines, All Rubric Marines" that has gone on for several editions.

Except that is literally true.

GW themselves said many a year ago- All World Eaters are Berzerkers but not all Berzerkers are World Eaters. Similar logic applies to all other (apart from TS, who are their own unique thing). So, every DG marine is a PM, but not every PM belongs to the DG Legion.

Just remove the Lord of Contagion entry all together and make that model the Death Guard Chaos Lord.

He's pointless anyway.

No one will blink an eye, as long as he as access to all of the wargear the Chaos Lord and Lord of Contagion currently have access to. None of this no model, no rule bs.