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Genuine question, but would Oblits be worthwhile without Endless Cacophony?

Good question. I'm honestly not sure, but I also don't see any reason why they wouldn't have Oblits.

The provide a kind of shooting DG are lacking right now, and they could move and shoot without penalties. I'd field them if I could.

Now it's my turn for a genuine question -
How do you think you would use them? I still feel like they're too expensive to really justify. Especially when they'd be in a similar slot as Blight Lords, and I can't see myself not taking the Blight Lords.

It's because they didn't do anything for Thousand Sons that couldn't really be done before. At most the extra Warlord would get some use.

To be fair, that criticism could probably be leveled at most of the PA updates ...

I actually feel like my Tsons did get a decent buff. Is it what they really needed? No, and Death Guard's boost will also likely not be quite enough, but my Tsons DID get better, and I'm hoping that trend continues for DG. Honestly, DG were a good army when they came out. They've just been hit with the classic codex creep, so I feel like they don't need quite as much from PA as some other armies did.

Tycho wrote:

Genuine question, but would Oblits be worthwhile without Endless Cacophony?

Good question. I'm honestly not sure, but I also don't see any reason why they wouldn't have Oblits.

The provide a kind of shooting DG are lacking right now, and they could move and shoot without penalties. I'd field them if I could.

Now it's my turn for a genuine question -
How do you think you would use them? I still feel like they're too expensive to really justify. Especially when they'd be in a similar slot as Blight Lords, and I can't see myself not taking the Blight Lords.

It's because they didn't do anything for Thousand Sons that couldn't really be done before. At most the extra Warlord would get some use.

To be fair, that criticism could probably be leveled at most of the PA updates ...

I actually feel like my Tsons did get a decent buff. Is it what they really needed? No, and Death Guard's boost will also likely not be quite enough, but my Tsons DID get better, and I'm hoping that trend continues for DG. Honestly, DG were a good army when they came out. They've just been hit with the classic codex creep, so I feel like they don't need quite as much from PA as some other armies did.

If you just keep releasing a bunch of stuff of COURSE you theoretically get better. However, it says a lot that they got NINE extra Warlord Traits, Powers, Relics, and a bunch of Stratagems and they still aren't terribly useful. I might have made the initial joke of GW creating rules via throwing darts at a board, but if that release for Thousand Sons isn't proof I dunno what is.

I really just think they need points drops in various places. Or a general boost in offensive power. Really the issue is the luck of a 5++. If you roll hot in turns 1 and 2 it really helps. If you dont it wont matter because everything is already dead and so you csnt hurt your opponent. There isnt a catchup mechanic in the way there can be with offensive buffs.

 Jidmah wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

Tycho wrote:


It's a pretty trivial thing to just add the Dark Hereticus powers into their book (there's no reason why any CSM army wouldn't have this as an option), and add a few of the missing units (I don't see why Oblits, Greater Possesed, or Masters of Possesion would be unfluffy ofr example).

Genuine question, but would Oblits be worthwhile without Endless Cacophony?

The provide a kind of shooting DG are lacking right now, and they could move and shoot without penalties. I'd field them if I could.

Throw in disgusting resilience and you could have a very dangerous set of units in your opponent's rear.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Tycho wrote:

Genuine question, but would Oblits be worthwhile without Endless Cacophony?

Good question. I'm honestly not sure, but I also don't see any reason why they wouldn't have Oblits.

The provide a kind of shooting DG are lacking right now, and they could move and shoot without penalties. I'd field them if I could.

Now it's my turn for a genuine question -
How do you think you would use them? I still feel like they're too expensive to really justify. Especially when they'd be in a similar slot as Blight Lords, and I can't see myself not taking the Blight Lords.

It's because they didn't do anything for Thousand Sons that couldn't really be done before. At most the extra Warlord would get some use.

To be fair, that criticism could probably be leveled at most of the PA updates ...

I actually feel like my Tsons did get a decent buff. Is it what they really needed? No, and Death Guard's boost will also likely not be quite enough, but my Tsons DID get better, and I'm hoping that trend continues for DG. Honestly, DG were a good army when they came out. They've just been hit with the classic codex creep, so I feel like they don't need quite as much from PA as some other armies did.

If you just keep releasing a bunch of stuff of COURSE you theoretically get better. However, it says a lot that they got NINE extra Warlord Traits, Powers, Relics, and a bunch of Stratagems and they still aren't terribly useful. I might have made the initial joke of GW creating rules via throwing darts at a board, but if that release for Thousand Sons isn't proof I dunno what is.

In danger of making this a 1ksons thread ill say the following. Yes, a good 2/3rds of the PA for 1k is middling at best and tepid at worst. But the 1/3rd that is good, is really fricking good. This isnt a 1ksons problem. Alot of PA and codex suffer from this problem.

Some cult powers have very much changed how I play my 1ksons and for the first time since the codex dropped, I feel like I am not being punished by the rules for playing Rubrics. Do that mean that we dont need a update? No. There is alot to fix and I would like a group of powers that keeps me from wanting to smite. A good half of what we can cast is trash. Exalteds need a fat buff to put them in consideration for HQ's and we need a form of doctrines. PA did not address this but it wasnt supposed to.

As for DG. I feel DG should be one of if not the hardest army to shift. And when I read the rules for PBC's I did not understand why people raved about them. Sure, they are a brick and offer some firepower with flamers (forgot the weapon name) but the main cannon is fricking useless. The irony is how the DG book goes on about how Mortarion himself designed them to be the premier siege unit. Mort is a tool of a designer and needs some help from a real siege pappy like Pert. When I played vs them they did very little.

Less than a third is usable. You can pretend it is, but in reality it's just a bunch of bloat that does little for the core army. Speaking of which, core Thousand Son armies didn't change, probably because nothing much of value was added!

Dudeface wrote:
They'd also lose their existing discipline

Oh noes! Miasma already is available to CSM and purifying blades can be replaced with diabolic strength.We trade two "deals mortal wounds" spells for other "deals mortal wounds" and instead of vitality and the random debuff for warptime, prescience and death hex.
We would actually end up with one more psychic power than we have now, and pretty much every codex in the game would trade their entire discipline away for warptime, prescience and death hex.
In addition, Death Guard would gain the entire malefic discipline, too, which is quite relevant to their daemon engines, as well as dark prayers.

, relics

Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Black Legion, Emperors Children and World Eaters have 7 unique relics each, as well as two generic ones and at least one aligned to their chaos god and a daemon weapon, for a total of 11. And I'm not even not counting the ones from specialist detachments.
Death Guard have 6.

and strats by being rolled back in.

Codex legions have 7-8 unique stratagems in addition to 24 from codex CSM.
Death Guard have 5 unique stratagems and 9 from codex CSM.
We would gain at least 17 stratagems from getting rolled into CSM, as well as access to specialist detachments.

Oh, and let's not forget that codex legions can chose from 13 warlord traits plus specialist detachments, while death guard have 6.

So, as you can see, currently getting rolled into the codex is all upside for Death Guard.

Try playing a purge list and see if it tickles your fancy for playing death guard.

Believe me, if it were possible to play the purge with my models, I'd instantly switch.


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Tycho wrote:

The provide a kind of shooting DG are lacking right now, and they could move and shoot without penalties. I'd field them if I could.

Now it's my turn for a genuine question -
How do you think you would use them? I still feel like they're too expensive to really justify. Especially when they'd be in a similar slot as Blight Lords, and I can't see myself not taking the Blight Lords.

Death guard currently have no real way to focus down hard targets, you have to rely on plasma guns, blight launchers and spitters to grind them down over multiple turns.
In theory, we have helbrutes, predators and landraiders (we don't even get vindicators!) to help with that, but among an army of 5++/DR vehicles, they stick out like a sore thumb and provide easy kill for our opponents.
Obliterators would solve this problem by providing a durable unit that can actually reliably hurt vehicles. To get comparable firepower to a single obliterator, I would have to spend 134 on a heavy blight launcher drone or 136 on an entropy cannon PBC, which can't move and hits on 4+ instead of 3+.
Heck, death guard obliterators could just start on the board, because they can advance and shoot without penalty.

Blightlords don't compare at all, they are an anti-infantry/anti-horde unit for clearing objectives. I would just run both.

One page of stratagem was the good design. A truckload of them for other factions was the wrong one.

Not particularly hopeful 9th will be better on that front, this stratagem bloat is probably awesome from a competitive point of view, since it offers new tactical options.

 Jidmah wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
They'd also lose their existing discipline

Oh noes! Miasma already is available to CSM and purifying blades can be replaced with diabolic strength.We trade two "deals mortal wounds" spells for other "deals mortal wounds" and instead of vitality and the random debuff for warptime, prescience and death hex.
We would actually end up with one more psychic power than we have now, and pretty much every codex in the game would trade their entire discipline away for warptime, prescience and death hex.
In addition, Death Guard would gain the entire malefic discipline, too, which is quite relevant to their daemon engines, as well as dark prayers.

, relics

Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Black Legion, Emperors Children and World Eaters have 7 unique relics each, as well as two generic ones and at least one aligned to their chaos god and a daemon weapon, for a total of 11. And I'm not even not counting the ones from specialist detachments.
Death Guard have 6.

and strats by being rolled back in.

Codex legions have 7-8 unique stratagems in addition to 24 from codex CSM.
Death Guard have 5 unique stratagems and 9 from codex CSM.
We would gain at least 17 stratagems from getting rolled into CSM, as well as access to specialist detachments.

Oh, and let's not forget that codex legions can chose from 13 warlord traits plus specialist detachments, while death guard have 6.

So, as you can see, currently getting rolled into the codex is all upside for Death Guard.

Try playing a purge list and see if it tickles your fancy for playing death guard.

Believe me, if it were possible to play the purge with my models, I'd instantly switch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tycho wrote:

The provide a kind of shooting DG are lacking right now, and they could move and shoot without penalties. I'd field them if I could.

Now it's my turn for a genuine question -
How do you think you would use them? I still feel like they're too expensive to really justify. Especially when they'd be in a similar slot as Blight Lords, and I can't see myself not taking the Blight Lords.

Death guard currently have no real way to focus down hard targets, you have to rely on plasma guns, blight launchers and spitters to grind them down over multiple turns.
In theory, we have helbrutes, predators and landraiders (we don't even get vindicators!) to help with that, but among an army of 5++/DR vehicles, they stick out like a sore thumb and provide easy kill for our opponents.
Obliterators would solve this problem by providing a durable unit that can actually reliably hurt vehicles. To get comparable firepower to a single obliterator, I would have to spend 134 on a heavy blight launcher drone or 136 on an entropy cannon PBC, which can't move and hits on 4+ instead of 3+.
Heck, death guard obliterators could just start on the board, because they can advance and shoot without penalty.

Blightlords don't compare at all, they are an anti-infantry/anti-horde unit for clearing objectives. I would just run both.

Oh sorry, you're comparing the chaos codex and 2 expansion books to the death guard codex. I didn't realise you'd moved the goal posts 2 fields across.

 Jidmah wrote:

Death guard currently have no real way to focus down hard targets, you have to rely on plasma guns, blight launchers and spitters to grind them down over multiple turns.
In theory, we have helbrutes, predators and landraiders (we don't even get vindicators!) to help with that, but among an army of 5++/DR vehicles, they stick out like a sore thumb and provide easy kill for our opponents.
Obliterators would solve this problem by providing a durable unit that can actually reliably hurt vehicles. To get comparable firepower to a single obliterator, I would have to spend 134 on a heavy blight launcher drone or 136 on an entropy cannon PBC, which can't move and hits on 4+ instead of 3+.
Heck, death guard obliterators could just start on the board, because they can advance and shoot without penalty.

Blightlords don't compare at all, they are an anti-infantry/anti-horde unit for clearing objectives. I would just run both.

That grinding them down over multiple turns fits the DG lore and theme pretty well though, I'd be afraid that giving them too much long range weaponry would distort the army's identity in an unhealthy way. I do think the (potentially) dedicated anti-vehicle units like PBC's could use a buff to their anti-vehicle weapons, a few new stratagems to reroll misses, let them shoot twice if they haven't moved maybe, or +1 to wound against VEHICLES maybe.

As far as other fixes go, making all characters like Chaos Lords T5 and giving them DR. Giving units like the Helbrute DR would help, as would more psychic powers to either boost their defensive powers or reduce the enemies firepower.

I think an endless cacophony type strat for MBH would be a nice buff for a cool unit that is underused, particularly as a fire support option.

Maybe allowing Plague Marines to throw grenades in addition to shooting. It's reasonbbly themaic, and would boost their damage output somewhat without changing their overall play style.

I won't consider Death Guard to be done right until you can make a plague marine heavy list and have it be viable. (Doesn't need to be a top tier tournament winning A+ list, but at least a B+.) For that to happen, plague marines need more firepower on their basic weapons, and rhinos need to become more viable.

Imagine for a moment if plague marines had the loyalist Doctrine rules. An extra -1 AP, and another super doctrine bonus. They'd be pretty rad then, because that puts them over the line of actually being able to hurt things with their bolters and CCWs. On top of that, they really need access to re-roll 1's to wound on shooting (all Chaos does.)

Well, if you take min squads with 2 Blight launchers and Plasma on Sergeant, supported by an arch contaminator HQ Plague Marines are pretty strong in my experience. CC Marines are a little harder to play though, but since they got hateful Assault I'm pretty content with the ones' that make it to CC. Agree about the Rhinos, though. They're better than last Edition, but not nearly triple the price better. That being said, it's pretty rare I needed a Transport in 8th Edition, and when I wished to have one it was to climb on buildings

I don't know if this has been stated yet, but since TS get extra AP in their bolter firepower due to Tzeentch magic, why not technically make bolter rounds plague rounds by allowing you to re-roll ones? I mean, we see on the front cover of the codex green steam coming out of the bolter.

Dudeface wrote:
Oh sorry, you're comparing the chaos codex and 2 expansion books to the death guard codex. I didn't realise you'd moved the goal posts 2 fields across.

Nice try, but no.
Psychic powers are not impacted at all by expansions, and the ones from the codex are vastly better than the ones in codex DG.
You gain 12 stratagems just from being in codex CSM
You gain 6 warlord traits from being in the codex
You gain prayers to the dark gods from the codex
You get access to specialist detachments for being in the codex
You get access to deamon weapons for being in the codex
Psychic Awakening added legion-specific warlord traits, relics and stratagems - which is more than DG already have, and therefore there is no reason to believe they would lose any of those. Rolling them back into the codex would also require a new publication, which will inevitably contain all those legion upgrades anyways. The other two expansions added nothing relevant to DG.

So you are just flat out wrong about losing anything for getting rolled in the codex.


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 DrGiggles wrote:
That grinding them down over multiple turns fits the DG lore and theme pretty well though, I'd be afraid that giving them too much long range weaponry would distort the army's identity in an unhealthy way.

Grinding down worked in the beginning of 8th, but with all the power creep, you just don't survive long enough to do so.
There are now things which you must be able to kill during the first two turns or you just lose the game because they are too efficient at plowing through DG units.

I do think the (potentially) dedicated anti-vehicle units like PBC's could use a buff to their anti-vehicle weapons, a few new stratagems to reroll misses, let them shoot twice if they haven't moved maybe, or +1 to wound against VEHICLES maybe.

It doesn't rally matter whether you introduce obliterators or buff PBCs to the level of obliterators, does it?

As far as other fixes go, making all characters like Chaos Lords T5 and giving them DR. Giving units like the Helbrute DR would help, as would more psychic powers to either boost their defensive powers or reduce the enemies firepower.

I agree that adding more layers of defenses would be the best way to make the Death Guard feel right again, but a bit of damage and range is needed in the game we have now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I don't know if this has been stated yet, but since TS get extra AP in their bolter firepower due to Tzeentch magic, why not technically make bolter rounds plague rounds by allowing you to re-roll ones? I mean, we see on the front cover of the codex green steam coming out of the bolter.

I agree, making all DG bolters plague weapons would be great, though it would put the arch-contaminator warlord trait even further ahead of the rest of the pack.

 Jidmah wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Oh sorry, you're comparing the chaos codex and 2 expansion books to the death guard codex. I didn't realise you'd moved the goal posts 2 fields across.

Nice try, but no.
Psychic powers are not impacted at all by expansions, and the ones from the codex are vastly better than the ones in codex DG.
You gain 12 stratagems just from being in codex CSM
You gain 6 warlord traits from being in the codex
You gain prayers to the dark gods from the codex
You get access to specialist detachments for being in the codex
You get access to deamon weapons for being in the codex
Psychic Awakening added legion-specific warlord traits, relics and stratagems - which is more than DG already have, and therefore there is no reason to believe they would lose any of those. Rolling them back into the codex would also require a new publication, which will inevitably contain all those legion upgrades anyways. The other two expansions added nothing relevant to DG.

So you are just flat out wrong about losing anything for getting rolled in the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DrGiggles wrote:
That grinding them down over multiple turns fits the DG lore and theme pretty well though, I'd be afraid that giving them too much long range weaponry would distort the army's identity in an unhealthy way.

Grinding down worked in the beginning of 8th, but with all the power creep, you just don't survive long enough to do so.
There are now things which you must be able to kill during the first two turns or you just lose the game because they are too efficient at plowing through DG units.

I do think the (potentially) dedicated anti-vehicle units like PBC's could use a buff to their anti-vehicle weapons, a few new stratagems to reroll misses, let them shoot twice if they haven't moved maybe, or +1 to wound against VEHICLES maybe.

It doesn't rally matter whether you introduce obliterators or buff PBCs to the level of obliterators, does it?

As far as other fixes go, making all characters like Chaos Lords T5 and giving them DR. Giving units like the Helbrute DR would help, as would more psychic powers to either boost their defensive powers or reduce the enemies firepower.

I agree that adding more layers of defenses would be the best way to make the Death Guard feel right again, but a bit of damage and range is needed in the game we have now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I don't know if this has been stated yet, but since TS get extra AP in their bolter firepower due to Tzeentch magic, why not technically make bolter rounds plague rounds by allowing you to re-roll ones? I mean, we see on the front cover of the codex green steam coming out of the bolter.

I agree, making all DG bolters plague weapons would be great, though it would put the arch-contaminator warlord trait even further ahead of the rest of the pack.

We're on 2 different pages, I'm talking as if they had never had a unique codex where none of their new units, strats, warlord traits exist. If you're talking about copy and pasting the entire death guard books contents back into codex chaos space marines that's just never going to happen and would be an awful idea.

Although my red corsairs daemon engine detachment would enjoy having access to drones and crawlers as well since they'd no longer be legion specific.

Dudeface wrote:
We're on 2 different pages, I'm talking as if they had never had a unique codex where none of their new units, strats, warlord traits exist. If you're talking about copy and pasting the entire death guard books contents back into codex chaos space marines that's just never going to happen and would be an awful idea.

Now you're moving goalposts, this is what you originally said:

Dudeface wrote:
hey'd also lose their existing discipline, relics and strats by being rolled back in.

Getting rolled back into the codex is what happend to Codex: Black Templars. You keep your unique units and characters, but otherwise become the same as any other chaos legion.

 Jidmah wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grinding down worked in the beginning of 8th, but with all the power creep, you just don't survive long enough to do so.
There are now things which you must be able to kill during the first two turns or you just lose the game because they are too efficient at plowing through DG units.

That would be a matter of them being to efficient at what they do though, I'd rather see all overperforming units be brought into line than make everything overly efficient at what they do.

 Jidmah wrote:

I agree that adding more layers of defenses would be the best way to make the Death Guard feel right again, but a bit of damage and range is needed in the game we have now.

Again, I'd rather each faction have a unique identity/play style while bringing clearly overperforming units more in line with other units. Having a fast paced game can be nice but the rate that models fly off the table right now is too much. Games shouldn't be decided in the first turn or two based solely on who brought the most firepower.

I agree, but the thread is about how to make Death Guard more competitive.

Reducing the damage of every single other decent shooting unit out there is not something that is going to happen.

Getting rolled back into the codex is what happend to Codex: Black Templars. You keep your unique units and characters, but otherwise become the same as any other chaos legion.

Rolling DG back into CSM is just not a good idea. They aren't going to get rolled back in and keep everything. They're going to get rolled back in and be what they were previously - an unfluffy shadow of what they should be ... Rolling them back in is going backwards, and I'd much rather we go forwards. They're a "new" army (I realize the book has been out for 3 years), and haven't had their first update yet. There's so much to build on in that book that I can't fathom why you would want to reverse direction rather than just bring that book in line with the codexes that have been updated. And again - for every thread where someone wants DG rolled back into CSM, I can point to another thread where that same person is saying "the CSM book SUCKS!", so I'm still unsure why that's an "acceptable solution - two "negatives" making a positive? IDK ... I've said it recently, and I'll say it again, I think the "Chaos players are never happy meme" may have more truth in it than I realized.

I like Jidmah's idea of making all regular bolters plague weapons, although I don't think I'd buff the offense of PMs any more than that. A lot of people are saying they need PMs to have better offensive output, but I don't think that's right for DG. Plague Marines don't need to be hyper-killers. They need to be the immovable object. Place a squad on an objective and watch them deny all comers. If they were tougher to kill, they'd really be able to take advantage of their Obsec ability. I think that's all the marines need. Tougher, with a points adjustment. If you could then add to that Rhinos w/Disgustingly Resilient, and maybe a better repair mechanic, you'd be on to something I think.

Also, while I DON'T think they should be rolled back in, I DO think they should have better synergy w/CSM. They should absolutely have access to Dark Hereticus, and their unique powers should be able to work on standard CSM, or, at the very least CSM w/the Mark of Nurgle.

I would also like to see Poxwalkers get something. Their schtick got nerfed so hard they don't really serve the same purpose anymore, so I'd like to see either a 1pt drop, or more strategems sent their way. Something like blocks of infiltrating walkers (to represent the infected populace milling about), or abilities to create super poxwalkers for a turn, etc etc. I was even thinking about a proposed "Plague Bomb" strat where once a game you pick a walker (or a squad - haven't fleshed it out) and just blow it up for a large radius of mortal wounds.

On the topic of mortal wounds - I think the DG either need more ways to deal them, or increase the amount of wounds when they deal them.

Death guard currently have no real way to focus down hard targets, you have to rely on plasma guns, blight launchers and spitters to grind them down over multiple turns.
In theory, we have helbrutes, predators and landraiders (we don't even get vindicators!) to help with that, but among an army of 5++/DR vehicles, they stick out like a sore thumb and provide easy kill for our opponents.
Obliterators would solve this problem by providing a durable unit that can actually reliably hurt vehicles. To get comparable firepower to a single obliterator, I would have to spend 134 on a heavy blight launcher drone or 136 on an entropy cannon PBC, which can't move and hits on 4+ instead of 3+.
Heck, death guard obliterators could just start on the board, because they can advance and shoot without penalty.

Blightlords don't compare at all, they are an anti-infantry/anti-horde unit for clearing objectives. I would just run both.

That's fair, and I could see that, although I still think Oblits are too expensive for what they deliver. And even in a DG army, I don't think they'd be survivable enough. I think it just end up as a distraction Carnifex.

Would be great if DG had a character that could give +1 to hit to deamon and deamon engine. This woule make PBC and myphitic way better.
A unit of devastator-like unit specific to DG could be a great addition too, like a short range (24") heavy hitter that are more reliable and cheaper than myphitic blight haulers.

Aside from that, only strata and relic should do the trick in my opinion.

Tycho wrote:
Rolling DG back into CSM is just not a good idea. They aren't going to get rolled back in and keep everything. They're going to get rolled back in and be what they were previously - an unfluffy shadow of what they should be ... Rolling them back in is going backwards, and I'd much rather we go forwards. They're a "new" army (I realize the book has been out for 3 years), and haven't had their first update yet. There's so much to build on in that book that I can't fathom why you would want to reverse direction rather than just bring that book in line with the codexes that have been updated.

Of course, I'm playing devil's advocate here.
The truth is that DG (and TS for that matter) have been left out of every single update that has been applied to all other chaos legions - the shadowspear units, the thunder hammer chaos lord from black fortress, the specialist detachments from vigilus, the daemon weapons from psychic awakening and prayers. Would you bet on the tallyman getting prayers with PA? I know I wouldn't.
We don't have vindicators despite the codex describing how we do. We don't have obliterators, despite Mortarion being one of the two primarchs that created them. We don't have masters of possessions despite daemon engines being our thing and Barbarus being littered in factories exactly as described in the MoP's fluff. We have possessed, but no greater possessed.
Heck, they even forgot to nerf our cultists, they still get our legion trait.

Obviously, I don't want DG to be rolled back into the codex, but right now they very much feel like a codex that GW simply forgot about. If this is what it means to have your own codex, Emperor's Children and World Eaters should pray that they'll never get their own.

That's fair, and I could see that, although I still think Oblits are too expensive for what they deliver. And even in a DG army, I don't think they'd be survivable enough. I think it just end up as a distraction Carnifex.

They still do the job better than anything else we have, and 2+/4++ is plenty survivable. Even if they aren't a competitive choice for top table games, they would be a valuable asset to everyone else.

Of course, I'm playing devil's advocate here.
The truth is that DG (and TS for that matter) have been left out of every single update that has been applied to all other chaos legions - the shadowspear units, the thunder hammer chaos lord from black fortress, the specialist detachments from vigilus, the daemon weapons from psychic awakening and prayers. Would you bet on the tallyman getting prayers with PA? I know I wouldn't.
We don't have vindicators despite the codex describing how we do. We don't have obliterators, despite Mortarion being one of the two primarchs that created them. We don't have masters of possessions despite daemon engines being our thing and Barbarus being littered in factories exactly as described in the MoP's fluff. We have possessed, but no greater possessed.


Obviously, I don't want DG to be rolled back into the codex, but right now they very much feel like a codex that GW simply forgot about. If this is what it means to have your own codex, Emperor's Children and World Eaters should pray that they'll never get their own.

Far as the Tallyman goes, I don't think I want, or need him to have prayers. While a lot of what CSM have gotten is semi-fun and fairly fluffy, a lot of it is poorly implemented. When was the last time you saw a Master of Possession? Even with the upgrade to the prayers system - how often do you see Dark Apostles? CSM players (myself included) are almost universal in deriding a lot of that new stuff. Disco-Lord aside, while the ideas behind a lot of them are fun, the implementation is weak at best. I agree from a fluff standpoint that it's kind of silly DG don't have some of those options, but the thread was specifically about improving the competitive level, and I'm not sure some of those units are going to cut it. Someone like the Tallyman for example, doesn't need "prayers", he just needs a more reliable way to get CP back, and the ability to bypass the rule that you can only regain 1 cp (unless he already does this - I haven't used hi in so long I do not recall/know if they made an exception for him).

Also true we don't have Vindis, and agree that it's kind of a dumb oversight, but they suck, so I don't know how getting them fixes the over-all army level. Like I said, I agree with a lot of your points about what they don't have (but SHOULD have) from the CSM book. I'm just not sure a lot of those things really make them that much better in the competitive sense.

I do think it's interesting that they are mentioned in Vigilus, but didn't really get anything from it, but I also have to wonder (like most other things GW does) how much of that is driven by sales. I don't know too many DG players, and the ones I DO know tend to be much like myself - our armies are complete. Painted, pointed, based and ready to play. I don't have much of a need for too many more DG purchases unless we get new models. I even have the Gellerpox minis ...
I know even fewer Tsons players, but they are in a similar boat - we own everything we need, so GW doesn't stand to make too much money from us, and neither faction (despite DG being in the starter) tends to draw new people. So they do what they have always done and update the armies most likely to see a higher return on the investment.

Heck, they even forgot to nerf our cultists, they still get our legion trait.

GTFO! Seriously?! How did I miss that?!

I've just been playing them this whole time like they do NOT get the trait. If what you're saying is accurate, we now have the best cultists in the game!

It's true. Our cultists rule supreme.

It's true. Our cultists rule supreme.

Well, if nothing else, this thread has at least helped MY Death Guard become more competitive!

Tycho wrote:
Far as the Tallyman goes, I don't think I want, or need him to have prayers. While a lot of what CSM have gotten is semi-fun and fairly fluffy, a lot of it is poorly implemented. When was the last time you saw a Master of Possession? Even with the upgrade to the prayers system - how often do you see Dark Apostles? CSM players (myself included) are almost universal in deriding a lot of that new stuff. Disco-Lord aside, while the ideas behind a lot of them are fun, the implementation is weak at best. I agree from a fluff standpoint that it's kind of silly DG don't have some of those options, but the thread was specifically about improving the competitive level, and I'm not sure some of those units are going to cut it. Someone like the Tallyman for example, doesn't need "prayers", he just needs a more reliable way to get CP back, and the ability to bypass the rule that you can only regain 1 cp (unless he already does this - I haven't used hi in so long I do not recall/know if they made an exception for him).

The tallyman is an apostle and therefore should have prayers. The CP rule is on top of that, and yes he can get back more than one CP, but only for death guard stratagems.

I'm not really after Death Guard being super duper competitive but it would be nice to actually stand a chance. The last tourney I went to before the world broke I lost every game and really, I didn't even come close to winning one.

Bit the bullet over lockdown and have bought a Nurgle Daemons battalion to soup up. Been holding off doing so but think it's time to move away from mono builds.

Really prefer the idea of just Death Guard though so hopefully the new book is tasty.

I think I'd be surprised if there wasn't a biggest boss/veteran intercessors style strat that gave +1T and DR to non-vehicle units that don't have it.

As for the subfactions, each vector has a signature disease, which is another route the various buffs could take. A variety of debuff auras rather than armywide buff.

1st is the Harbingers, and has Typhus and is zombie plague focused
2nd Company hasn't got a fancy name but uses armoured vehicles and carries a rust blade that effects armour and vehicles
3rd is Mortarion's Anvil and is a defensive focused force blessed with a sweaty fever
4th doesn't have a name but is led by a deamonic swarm of flies, and specialises in summoning and sorcerers. Their disease seems linked to their lord and effects infantry
5th is Poxmongers who specialise in Daemon engines, their disease causes bleeding
6th is the Ferrymen/Brethren of the fly and has a lot of Blightlords who are infested with a parasite called "the Droning"
7th is the Chosen Sons, who seem to specialise in alchemy and grenades.

deathguard is the exemple of how unbalanced is an army themed to be resilient and wining fighting " a long war" in a lethal environement were games are decided mostly at the end of turn 2.

fighting a long war:

-slow. few projections options, 4"-5" movement on troops, noting to improve charge odds.
- dangerous at mid range with few and expensive long range option.
- resiliant: improved T, distinguishly resilient.

The problem here is the last dot . This is not enought in the meta.
If you can't be dangerous early you need to be nearly impossible to delete.
Specialy since you have no mobility and need to expose yourself.

let's be honest the only thing deathguard need is the old wounding chart.
The new one with the profusion of flat +1 to wound on the dice result and overabundance of rerolls mean that even a t8 3+ 5++ dr is not enought.

plague marines are not up to the task. they need those 2 wounds.
Why?
Beause if they are cheaper an stay at 1 wound they gona pack more punch wich is not what you want.
bonus: multidamage weapons are super effective against 1 wound DR infantry anyway.
This is the main problem, deathguard units can't be cheaper they need to be harder to kill.

plague burst crawler is balanced that way. designed to achieve few but stay until the very end but if there is nothing left to help him it's pointless.

we do not need more lethality.
deathguard is already incredibly deadly in close combat /short range.
We just need to stay in the game.

Crippling the enemy:
maluses of all sorts. overheating hex on units wounded by plague weapon/ -1 bs for unit in range of xxx unit/ negative reroll of all sorts/ movement limitations (units 7" from deathshrouds get -2 to movement ) etc.

Death guard is one of the early 8th ed codex.
It wasn't durable enought already (new wound chart) and with all the powercreeping going on it's worst at the dawn of 9th ed.

 Tastyfish wrote:
I think I'd be surprised if there wasn't a biggest boss/veteran intercessors style strat that gave +1T and DR to non-vehicle units that don't have it.

As for the subfactions, each vector has a signature disease, which is another route the various buffs could take. A variety of debuff auras rather than armywide buff.

1st is the Harbingers, and has Typhus and is zombie plague focused
2nd Company hasn't got a fancy name but uses armoured vehicles and carries a rust blade that effects armour and vehicles
3rd is Mortarion's Anvil and is a defensive focused force blessed with a sweaty fever
4th doesn't have a name but is led by a deamonic swarm of flies, and specialises in summoning and sorcerers. Their disease seems linked to their lord and effects infantry
5th is Poxmongers who specialise in Daemon engines, their disease causes bleeding
6th is the Ferrymen/Brethren of the fly and has a lot of Blightlords who are infested with a parasite called "the Droning"
7th is the Chosen Sons, who seem to specialise in alchemy and grenades.

The second are the Pallid Hand! And they specialise in armoured assaults (involving oldies such as predators & land raiders) and are harbingers of the ferric blight.