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2020/08/19 09:12:25
Subject: Re:How are xenos armies meant to compete?
Gadzilla666 wrote: We've already seen the stats for Vindicators and Redemptors from their in box instructions. No changes for wounds, toughness, or saves.
Silly, also considering that marine infantries will get +1W.
2020/08/19 10:06:23
Subject: Re:How are xenos armies meant to compete?
The problem with this increasing damage output without changing statlines makes almost all LoW unplayable as they need to last 2-3 turn to have half a chance of being worthwhile and plenty of them already had issues being nuclear alpha stuck off the table turn 1.
Short of points cuts which would have to be in the range of 300 point Knights, 400 point Stompas and 500 castellens they aren't viable with this damage increase.
So unless GW has decieded to give LoW a flat rule to reduce the damage of weapons used against them by 1 to a minimum of 1 they have the balance again.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/19 10:47:58
Well, all factions are meant to compete.
This should be the general approach of a gaming system.
But one could get the impression that Primaris Marines are more competitive than others atm.
Let's wait for the new codices.
We play 9th ed rules with 8th ed codices atm.
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If they bring MM to 40 points and Eradicators to 55 (or just change them in the codex), then we can still salvage vehicle and monsters in this edition, if not this is the 1W edition. Even Gravis models are useless with these weapons around.
At least we know Drukhari and Ork models are incoming, hopefully with a new 'dex in tow that will give them....something.....I don't know.
Did I miss something? How do we know that?
There was a preview video in one of the "After Indomitus" articles on WHC, which showed bits of four or five models, finishing with the full reveal of the SoB Palantine. I can't remember which article, unfortunately.
However, we saw segments of a model each for, from memory, AdMech, Dark Eldar, Orks, Death Guard and SoB. As a result, we know they'll get a small release each, possibly by the end of the year (I'd normally say within 3 months or so, but this is 2020...).
Video then pic of the Palantine all near the bottom.
My bet for all the models is lieutenant-equivalents for the relevant faction.
Death Guard, Ad Mech, Dark Eldar, Orks and Sisters
No idea if they're attached to a codex or just something random.
As much as I would love that, the drukhari model is understood from various previews to be Lelith Hesperax, a named character who can only be taken in the worst wych cult, who currently is fluffed as a "Peerless duellist" but has a tendency to lose duels with space marine chainsword/bolt pistol captains.
The model itself gives drukhari no reason for being excited, really it's just the matter of whether we get a codex or not.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote: If they bring MM to 40 points and Eradicators to 55 (or just change them in the codex), then we can still salvage vehicle and monsters in this edition, if not this is the 1W edition. Even Gravis models are useless with these weapons around.
Im really REALLY not understanding this. In my first game against eradicators, they rolled up in melta range of my bonebreaka, did 6 shots, 4 wounds, 2 unsaved (I had the kustom job on it) and did 8 damage.
Then I booped them with rokkits and they died.
they just...dont seem that bonkers to me, I don't know. they're undercosted. Sure. maybe a bit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/19 11:14:14
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
At least we know Drukhari and Ork models are incoming, hopefully with a new 'dex in tow that will give them....something.....I don't know.
Did I miss something? How do we know that?
There was a preview video in one of the "After Indomitus" articles on WHC, which showed bits of four or five models, finishing with the full reveal of the SoB Palantine. I can't remember which article, unfortunately.
However, we saw segments of a model each for, from memory, AdMech, Dark Eldar, Orks, Death Guard and SoB. As a result, we know they'll get a small release each, possibly by the end of the year (I'd normally say within 3 months or so, but this is 2020...).
Video then pic of the Palantine all near the bottom.
My bet for all the models is lieutenant-equivalents for the relevant faction.
Death Guard, Ad Mech, Dark Eldar, Orks and Sisters
No idea if they're attached to a codex or just something random.
As much as I would love that, the drukhari model is understood from various previews to be Lelith Hesperax, a named character who can only be taken in the worst wych cult, who currently is fluffed as a "Peerless duellist" but has a tendency to lose duels with space marine chainsword/bolt pistol captains.
The model itself gives drukhari no reason for being excited, really it's just the matter of whether we get a codex or not.
bit premature to say that it's going to be her absolutely. also a bit premature to say her new stats (and if she gets a new model she WILL get new stats) will suck.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
I don't remember ever being afraid of Lilith, despite her prowess in the Lore. GW thinks that having 12 attacks or whatever makes a model good, but if they are strength 3 AP who-cares-everyone-important-has-an-invuln then they are not good attacks.
She freaking attacks with her *hair* as one of her weapons in the current iteration, iirc. Ewww, your GW is showing, GW.
Anyways, if she comes out and can actually beat a nameless captain in Gravis armor without dying, then I would be surprised.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/19 11:42:31
Spoletta wrote: If they bring MM to 40 points and Eradicators to 55 (or just change them in the codex), then we can still salvage vehicle and monsters in this edition, if not this is the 1W edition. Even Gravis models are useless with these weapons around.
Im really REALLY not understanding this. In my first game against eradicators, they rolled up in melta range of my bonebreaka, did 6 shots, 4 wounds, 2 unsaved (I had the kustom job on it) and did 8 damage.
Then I booped them with rokkits and they died.
they just...dont seem that bonkers to me, I don't know. they're undercosted. Sure. maybe a bit.
I've had a few games with those guys, and they simply over perform for that cost. There isn't much more than that, the contribute they bring to the battlefield in terms of focused focus fire, damage and forces depolyments is simply worth much much more than 120 points.
At least we know Drukhari and Ork models are incoming, hopefully with a new 'dex in tow that will give them....something.....I don't know.
Did I miss something? How do we know that?
There was a preview video in one of the "After Indomitus" articles on WHC, which showed bits of four or five models, finishing with the full reveal of the SoB Palantine. I can't remember which article, unfortunately.
However, we saw segments of a model each for, from memory, AdMech, Dark Eldar, Orks, Death Guard and SoB. As a result, we know they'll get a small release each, possibly by the end of the year (I'd normally say within 3 months or so, but this is 2020...).
Video then pic of the Palantine all near the bottom.
My bet for all the models is lieutenant-equivalents for the relevant faction.
Death Guard, Ad Mech, Dark Eldar, Orks and Sisters
No idea if they're attached to a codex or just something random.
As much as I would love that, the drukhari model is understood from various previews to be Lelith Hesperax, a named character who can only be taken in the worst wych cult, who currently is fluffed as a "Peerless duellist" but has a tendency to lose duels with space marine chainsword/bolt pistol captains.
The model itself gives drukhari no reason for being excited, really it's just the matter of whether we get a codex or not.
bit premature to say that it's going to be her absolutely. also a bit premature to say her new stats (and if she gets a new model she WILL get new stats) will suck.
It isn't just the video preview we've had for that model. We've seen her hair (Lelith has an auxiliary weapon that is literally her hair, which she fills with fishhooks and such) and we've seen her knife, which is slightly different from the normal wych knife and an exact match to the current lelith model.
The model previewed is also exactly the same stance lelith is in. it is 99.999% certain its lelith.
Jain Zar JUST got a new model, and they nerfed her best ability and kept her utterly pathetic A4 statline and weapon that is now literally worse than a basic power fist exactly the same. GW seemingly has no interest in making any kind of reasonable parity between the stats of Eldar characters who are supposed to be "combat specialists" and....anyone, really, even their own codexes. The slow ass janky ass frankenstein HQs in the dark eldar codex are far better at killing things in melee than succubi/lelith.
Spoletta wrote: If they bring MM to 40 points and Eradicators to 55 (or just change them in the codex), then we can still salvage vehicle and monsters in this edition, if not this is the 1W edition. Even Gravis models are useless with these weapons around.
Im really REALLY not understanding this. In my first game against eradicators, they rolled up in melta range of my bonebreaka, did 6 shots, 4 wounds, 2 unsaved (I had the kustom job on it) and did 8 damage.
Then I booped them with rokkits and they died.
they just...dont seem that bonkers to me, I don't know. they're undercosted. Sure. maybe a bit.
I've had a few games with those guys, and they simply over perform for that cost. There isn't much more than that, the contribute they bring to the battlefield in terms of focused focus fire, damage and forces depolyments is simply worth much much more than 120 points.
I'd be way happier to see them across the table from me than a squad of lascannon devastators using the new statlines. Or multimelta devastators. You know, those guys that get 8 melta shots, can split fire, and have a transport that lets them deep strike turn 1.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/19 12:07:28
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
At least we know Drukhari and Ork models are incoming, hopefully with a new 'dex in tow that will give them....something.....I don't know.
Did I miss something? How do we know that?
There was a preview video in one of the "After Indomitus" articles on WHC, which showed bits of four or five models, finishing with the full reveal of the SoB Palantine. I can't remember which article, unfortunately.
However, we saw segments of a model each for, from memory, AdMech, Dark Eldar, Orks, Death Guard and SoB. As a result, we know they'll get a small release each, possibly by the end of the year (I'd normally say within 3 months or so, but this is 2020...).
Video then pic of the Palantine all near the bottom.
My bet for all the models is lieutenant-equivalents for the relevant faction.
Death Guard, Ad Mech, Dark Eldar, Orks and Sisters
No idea if they're attached to a codex or just something random.
As much as I would love that, the drukhari model is understood from various previews to be Lelith Hesperax, a named character who can only be taken in the worst wych cult, who currently is fluffed as a "Peerless duellist" but has a tendency to lose duels with space marine chainsword/bolt pistol captains.
The model itself gives drukhari no reason for being excited, really it's just the matter of whether we get a codex or not.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote: If they bring MM to 40 points and Eradicators to 55 (or just change them in the codex), then we can still salvage vehicle and monsters in this edition, if not this is the 1W edition. Even Gravis models are useless with these weapons around.
Im really REALLY not understanding this. In my first game against eradicators, they rolled up in melta range of my bonebreaka, did 6 shots, 4 wounds, 2 unsaved (I had the kustom job on it) and did 8 damage.
Then I booped them with rokkits and they died.
they just...dont seem that bonkers to me, I don't know. they're undercosted. Sure. maybe a bit.
A lot of the panic is mathhammering people who note that point for point they out perform fire dragons (which as far as I know no one takes) so "they're OP!" or... something like that I dunno. they're potent but at the end of the day it's only a 3 man infantry squad
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
I'd be way happier to see them across the table from me than a squad of lascannon devastators using the new statlines. Or multimelta devastators. You know, those guys that get 8 melta shots, can split fire, and have a transport that lets them deep strike turn 1.
Of course you'd rather see 120pts of Eradicators than 190 points of Lascannons devastators, or a 250 point drop melta squad. I'd rather see less points than more.
The new melta rules will require an game wide reevaluation of their usefulness, and the usefulness of every unit that can take them. Depending on how that goes, if melta is the "new hotness" and ends up in drop pods, attack bikes, eradicators, tactical squads with double melta, combi-metla sergeant spam, invader spam....etc, then we will have to reevaluate everything in our armies toughness wise. Are vehicles too fragile? Does the damage increase REALLY matter when they were so bad before or does it bring them inline with other guns? Are we back into a 1 wound meta? Horde armies now reign supreme?
That doesn't even take into account that all the marines are going to a 2W base. That's a HUGE shuffle in the codex. It feels like the new codex may require us to throw out almost everything we know and start from scratch, because yeah, Eradicators don't look amazing compared to what we are theorizing in the 9th edition codex....but they are pretty amazing with the 8th edition codex ATM, and that's if they get NO CHANGES.
It feels like GW are throwing a lot of the "tradition" out of the window in terms of weapon/stat design, and I for one love that they are going this direction. Eg. why was a melta weapons 2D6 pick the highest at close range? Because it's always been that way....no other reason. If they can get rid of some of these old stupid stipulations and "because they always have been!" army building guidelines, than we might see some really interesting stuff. Aspect warriors to S4? T4? Tyranid warriors to T6? 3+ save? Changes to lasgun or shuriken catapult stats? What's stopping them? Ork boys to W2, nobz to W3? Their imagination is the only limit!
Without a doubt, there will be growing pains (cough Eradicators cough), especially while some of the codexs are waiting for updates, but this "dumping of tradition" in design has me more excited than 9th edition itself did!
dexs are waiting for updates, but this "dumping of tradition" in design has me more excited than 9th edition itself did!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/08/19 12:56:55
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A lot of the panic is mathhammering people who note that point for point they out perform fire dragons (which as far as I know no one takes) so "they're OP!" or... something like that I dunno. they're potent but at the end of the day it's only a 3 man infantry squad
It's never been that that was marine players moving the goal posts to justify why their 120 point unit should achieve 90% or more returns in points killed in a single round of shooting.
Even against the bone break in that example they achieved destruction of 75% of their points in that single round and that was below avarage for them.
A lot of the panic is mathhammering people who note that point for point they out perform fire dragons (which as far as I know no one takes) so "they're OP!" or... something like that I dunno. they're potent but at the end of the day it's only a 3 man infantry squad
It's never been that that was marine players moving the goal posts to justify why their 120 point unit should achieve 90% or more returns in points killed in a single round of shooting.
Even against the bone break in that example they achieved destruction of 75% of their points in that single round and that was below avarage for them.
It^s also utter nonsense, compared to metla chosen, or even a singular obliterator.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
A lot of the panic is mathhammering people who note that point for point they out perform fire dragons (which as far as I know no one takes) so "they're OP!" or... something like that I dunno. they're potent but at the end of the day it's only a 3 man infantry squad
It's never been that that was marine players moving the goal posts to justify why their 120 point unit should achieve 90% or more returns in points killed in a single round of shooting.
Even against the bone break in that example they achieved destruction of 75% of their points in that single round and that was below avarage for them.
They what? How? A bonebreaka is like...160pts, they didn't kill it, and it spent the entire rest of the game blenderizing primaris marines without taking a single wound.
The downsides to melta (4+ to wound vs T8, AP-4 being reduced in effectiveness vs invuln saves, shorter range meaning the units tend to operate as single-shot suicide squads rather than sitting in the back and plonking away all game like lascannons do) still exist. They're just not the absolute death on arrival that they used to be.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/19 13:42:33
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
A lot of the panic is mathhammering people who note that point for point they out perform fire dragons (which as far as I know no one takes) so "they're OP!" or... something like that I dunno. they're potent but at the end of the day it's only a 3 man infantry squad
It's never been that that was marine players moving the goal posts to justify why their 120 point unit should achieve 90% or more returns in points killed in a single round of shooting.
Even against the bone break in that example they achieved destruction of 75% of their points in that single round and that was below avarage for them.
They what? How? A bonebreaka is like...160pts, they didn't kill it, and it spent the entire rest of the game blenderizing primaris marines without taking a single wound.
180, and considered too expensive. Orks are currently moving towards the cheaper battlewagons which can do almost as much blenderizing for less points but more transport capacity.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
A lot of the panic is mathhammering people who note that point for point they out perform fire dragons (which as far as I know no one takes) so "they're OP!" or... something like that I dunno. they're potent but at the end of the day it's only a 3 man infantry squad
It's never been that that was marine players moving the goal posts to justify why their 120 point unit should achieve 90% or more returns in points killed in a single round of shooting.
Even against the bone break in that example they achieved destruction of 75% of their points in that single round and that was below avarage for them.
It^s also utter nonsense, compared to metla chosen, or even a singular obliterator.
They're also better than, I dunno. Heat lance scourges? Whole squads of combi-melta terminators? Torsion cannon breachers? All these units that have always been at the cutting edge of competitive discussion, yep, they absolutely blow those guys out of the water.
Im sick and god damned tired of space marines. you know that. I find playing against doctrines miserable, I hate how I need to memorize a whole codex worth of god damn stratagems and powers and traits every time I play against them. I hate that they break rules that everyone else seems to have to follow like turn 1 deep strike, models with multiple warlord traits, getting to choose custom chapters and still get the goodies from the standard fixed chapters, all that crap. I am in NO WAY a marine apologist.
This thing is just not as crazy as you seem to think it is, on the actual table.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
As said, I'm not sure "they did 75% of their points in a turn and then I killed them" is necessarily a sign they aren't all that good.
As with all things - if your opponent takes 1 squad, its only 6 24" range melta gun shots. They can easily roll a bit soft, bounce on T8, Invuls etc, and then you can just nuke them off the table. Admittedly sometimes they'll roll hot instead, but so it goes.
The issue's going to be when people take 3 such squads - and so the numbers should tend more towards the average.
I'd say it's an excellent Distraction Carnifex, at the very least.
120 points for a unit that has to be killed as soon as possible, because it projects firepower like units twice its cost without spending any CPs, while still being durable enough to require decent amount of firepower to take out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/19 14:04:12
Tyel wrote: As said, I'm not sure "they did 75% of their points in a turn and then I killed them" is necessarily a sign they aren't all that good.
As with all things - if your opponent takes 1 squad, its only 6 24" range melta gun shots. They can easily roll a bit soft, bounce on T8, Invuls etc, and then you can just nuke them off the table. Admittedly sometimes they'll roll hot instead, but so it goes.
The issue's going to be when people take 3 such squads - and so the numbers should tend more towards the average.
Yeah, you can just roll badly with it and... don't care, because in the end they are so cheap that you don't care.
They can roll hot and destroy a vehicle or a gravis squad in a turn, or just miss completely, but that is not what a 120 point unit should do.
Again, this is not mathhammer, I've played with them and against them, and they always contribute way more than what the cost suggests in every game.
A lot of the panic is mathhammering people who note that point for point they out perform fire dragons (which as far as I know no one takes) so "they're OP!" or... something like that I dunno. they're potent but at the end of the day it's only a 3 man infantry squad
It's never been that that was marine players moving the goal posts to justify why their 120 point unit should achieve 90% or more returns in points killed in a single round of shooting.
Even against the bone break in that example they achieved destruction of 75% of their points in that single round and that was below avarage for them.
They what? How? A bonebreaka is like...160pts, they didn't kill it, and it spent the entire rest of the game blenderizing primaris marines without taking a single wound.
The downsides to melta (4+ to wound vs T8, AP-4 being reduced in effectiveness vs invuln saves, shorter range meaning the units tend to operate as single-shot suicide squads rather than sitting in the back and plonking away all game like lascannons do) still exist. They're just not the absolute death on arrival that they used to be.
They spent 120 points to take a below avarage half the wounds on a bonebreak (as already pointed out they are now 180)which you also I am assuming spent CP on the invulnerable save for.
Also FYI they benifit from doctrines so AP-5 turns 2&3 so it's invulnerable saves or FNP only.
You've obviously not seen them run on mass as Salamanders or their sucessors where they can have yet more buffs stacked on them.
There is a reason they are showing up as 3 units of 3 in competitive lists.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/19 14:08:38
A lot of the panic is mathhammering people who note that point for point they out perform fire dragons (which as far as I know no one takes) so "they're OP!" or... something like that I dunno. they're potent but at the end of the day it's only a 3 man infantry squad
It's never been that that was marine players moving the goal posts to justify why their 120 point unit should achieve 90% or more returns in points killed in a single round of shooting.
Even against the bone break in that example they achieved destruction of 75% of their points in that single round and that was below avarage for them.
It^s also utter nonsense, compared to metla chosen, or even a singular obliterator.
They're also better than, I dunno. Heat lance scourges? Whole squads of combi-melta terminators? Torsion cannon breachers? All these units that have always been at the cutting edge of competitive discussion, yep, they absolutely blow those guys out of the water.
Im sick and god damned tired of space marines. you know that. I find playing against doctrines miserable, I hate how I need to memorize a whole codex worth of god damn stratagems and powers and traits every time I play against them. I hate that they break rules that everyone else seems to have to follow like turn 1 deep strike, models with multiple warlord traits, getting to choose custom chapters and still get the goodies from the standard fixed chapters, all that crap. I am in NO WAY a marine apologist.
This thing is just not as crazy as you seem to think it is, on the actual table.
They're not the game winning, knight melting, unstoppable force that many seem to think they are, but they're just another example of a loyalist unit that punches above its points cost. When taken into account with all the other confusingly priced units available to loyalists (*cough* relic contemptors *cough* blade guard *cough*) they're just one more slap in the face to other factions. By themselves they wouldn't be a problem, but it all adds up, just like all those strategems, powers, and traits you mentioned.
But no, by themselves they're not much. They're definitely not the "death of LoWs" that some are claiming. I consider their average damage potential against my (not remotely competitive) Fellblade, and all I can think is "Meh". But they can still do more than a 120 point unit should be capable of (especially if they're Salamanders).
2020/08/19 14:30:43
Subject: Re:How are xenos armies meant to compete?
On their own, 1 unit of 3, Eradicators aren't really a problem. Kind of like how Eliminators on their own weren't really a problem.
But it's that they're juuuust cheap enough to allow you to take multiple units of them very easily that they have the potential to become a pain to deal with. 9 Eliminators was an actual nightmare to deal with and I can see the same being true for some lists when faced with Eradicators because compared to lots of other similar units, they are incredibly points efficient.
Nazi punks feth off
2020/08/19 14:33:15
Subject: Re:How are xenos armies meant to compete?
Bosskelot wrote: On their own, 1 unit of 3, Eradicators aren't really a problem. Kind of like how Eliminators on their own weren't really a problem.
But it's that they're juuuust cheap enough to allow you to take multiple units of them very easily that they have the potential to become a pain to deal with. 9 Eliminators was an actual nightmare to deal with and I can see the same being true for some lists when faced with Eradicators because compared to lots of other similar units, they are incredibly points efficient.
Pretty much this. With the right configuration they're independent and extremely efficient, which for 40k in general and 9th specifically is an absolute bonkers asset.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Bull. How the hell did your vehicle save half the wounds vs melta? You can't point to invuln saves and say "oh well I passed half my invuln saves so... the unit's fine." My dunecrawler could get hit by a volcano cannon and make its invuln save. Should I shrug and say the volcano cannon sucks? Do you know many vehicles straight up don't have invulns? Are you just supposed to not take those?
On average rolls. AVERAGE. A 120 point unit of those melta buttholes one shots a guard tank commander that costs twice as much.
If you play guard are you supposed to just scoop? Just don't play guard? lol
If they're going to keep this level of lethality (including 2 damage heavy bolters that are just going to chew threw guard vehicles), they need to up the durability of all vehicles by like... 33%. This is getting ridiculous.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, all factions are meant to compete.
This should be the general approach of a gaming system.
But one could get the impression that Primaris Marines are more competitive than others atm.
Let's wait for the new codices.
We play 9th ed rules with 8th ed codices atm.
How long do we need to wait? When should I expect my Daemons Codex? A month? A year? Two years?
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
the balance again.
" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever." 
