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leopard wrote:
Mad Boyz were wonderful, the way you could run half the fantasy line as primitive orks too was excellent

still have the Waaargh the Orks book, a wonderful book, zero rules but gods a lot of flavour to it

Back when Orks had litters! None of this Fungus crap!

 Easy E wrote:

leopard wrote:
Mad Boyz were wonderful, the way you could run half the fantasy line as primitive orks too was excellent

still have the Waaargh the Orks book, a wonderful book, zero rules but gods a lot of flavour to it

Back when Orks had litters! None of this Fungus crap!

I care not for the modern day, my orks ain't fungus

I never understood the move to change their background to fungus/fungoids.

Did anyone ever give a reason? In an interview or something?

 Easy E wrote:
Back when Orks had litters! None of this Fungus crap!

As I like eating mushrooms, when they announced that Orks are fungus, I could not help but wonder if they are good eating. Yes, I understand they like a good krump, but people still hunt wild boars* for the challenge, so I'm sure there would be enough crazy hunters who would hunt orks for gourmands. "Ork. It's what's for dinner."


*A friend of mine went to a Florida college. He made a friend there, a bow hunter who invited him to go boar hunting in the Everglades. The hunter explained that one should shoot the boar from the side, going for a heart or lung shot, since boars have thick skulls, and shooting them in the head just pisses them off. Well, he shot the boar in the head: perhaps it turned at the wrong moment or something. Anyway, my friend and his host were chased through the Everglades for five miles until the boar finally bled out. They then had to carry 400lbs of dead boar out of the swamp. Anyway, that's how I heard it. I don't know how much the story got exaggerated, if at all.

 Ancestral Hamster wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
Back when Orks had litters! None of this Fungus crap!

As I like eating mushrooms, when they announced that Orks are fungus, I could not help but wonder if they are good eating. Yes, I understand they like a good krump, but people still hunt wild boars* for the challenge, so I'm sure there would be enough crazy hunters who would hunt orks for gourmands. "Ork. It's what's for dinner."


*A friend of mine went to a Florida college. He made a friend there, a bow hunter who invited him to go boar hunting in the Everglades. The hunter explained that one should shoot the boar from the side, going for a heart or lung shot, since boars have thick skulls, and shooting them in the head just pisses them off. Well, he shot the boar in the head: perhaps it turned at the wrong moment or something. Anyway, my friend and his host were chased through the Everglades for five miles until the boar finally bled out. They then had to carry 400lbs of dead boar out of the swamp. Anyway, that's how I heard it. I don't know how much the story got exaggerated, if at all.

Orks are canonically edible, and somewhat tasty and nutritious, it comes up in a Space Wolves story:

‘At least we’re not eating them afterwards.’ Lukas’ expression became speculative. ‘Though we could, I suppose.’

‘No.’

‘Seems a waste to burn them, is all.’

‘No.’

‘Where is your sense of adventure, Halvar?’ Lukas asked. ‘New experiences are what life is all about.’

‘Not our lives. I just kill xenos – I don’t eat them.’ Halvar hesitated. ‘Except ork, on occasion. Very rare occasions,’ he added hastily.

‘No need to be ashamed, pup. We’ve all eaten an ork at one time or another. They cook up nicely.’ Lukas concentrated on navigating the narrow, uneven corridor. It was a natural bore hole, worn open by tectonic pressures, weather or some long ago disaster. One of the secret paths that wolves and other things used to sneak into the Aett.

- From Lukas the Trickster, by Josh Reynolds

 Fugazi wrote:
I never understood the move to change their background to fungus/fungoids.

Did anyone ever give a reason? In an interview or something?

Oh they’ve always been partly Fu good. What changed was a claim about how they reproduce.

In Waaaargh! The Orks! it’s simply said an old Ork wanders off into the wilderness and is never seen again, but Wildboyz wander out of the Wilderness and are adopted into a Tribe,

Orks as a society however, probably don’t care too much about where Yoofs come from!

It always struck me as odd. Like, here's an orc (in spaaaaaace, so it's an ork). We all know what an orc is, from either LotR or D&D. So let's make it a fungus?

I don't know. Always seemed like a weird choice.

Like I'd said before I think that at some point someone at GW read the Dragon Rider books, the Orks are more or less Thread with dakka, random drifing about and make a right mess of whatever planet has the misfortune to encounter

Wasn't it Gav Thorpe and the third edition rulebook? I think that was the first mention we had of it.

I choose to completely ignore that bit of background (as is my right, as a grognard), because we already have one bio-terror faction and I like the idea of the Ork families and clans that you had in the Rogue Trader Ork books, which were just so much more flavourful.

 Pacific wrote:
Wasn't it Gav Thorpe and the third edition rulebook? I think that was the first mention we had of it.

I choose to completely ignore that bit of background (as is my right, as a grognard), because we already have one bio-terror faction and I like the idea of the Ork families and clans that you had in the Rogue Trader Ork books, which were just so much more flavourful.

Wait, don't they use magic mushrooms? How does a 'shroom get high off of a 'shroom?

I figured it was part of GW's "No Sex Please, We're English" culture. There are few (if any) references to romantic entanglements in any of the 40k lore, with just about everyone being a bachelor for life. (The Dark Angels had some other, ahem, issues.)

So rather than explain to Timmy how when mommy and daddy ork love each other very much, they just bud or give off spores or something. As for humans, the men are too busy fighting to raise sons and the proper place for girls is in bondage-themed nunneries. Babies come from somewhere else.

It always struck me as strange.

Tsagualsa wrote:
Orks are canonically edible, and somewhat tasty and nutritious, it comes up in a Space Wolves story.

Thanks for the reference. An aside. I'll be cooking pork loin with mushroom gravy this weekend. Wouldn't know how to prepare wild boar or ork anyway.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
Wait, don't they use magic mushrooms? How does a 'shroom get high off of a 'shroom?

I figured it was part of GW's "No Sex Please, We're English" culture. There are few (if any) references to romantic entanglements in any of the 40k lore, with just about everyone being a bachelor for life. (The Dark Angels had some other, ahem, issues.)

So rather than explain to Timmy how when mommy and daddy ork love each other very much, they just bud or give off spores or something. As for humans, the men are too busy fighting to raise sons and the proper place for girls is in bondage-themed nunneries. Babies come from somewhere else.

It always struck me as strange.

Re: Wait, don't they use magic mushrooms? How does a 'shroom get high off of a 'shroom? Probably in the same way their technology works, "A Wizard Did It."

With a wider commercial appeal, GW may have wanted to downplay some of their earlier miniature releases. I've a crudely printed advertisement from Citadel Miniatures from about 1980. Many of the figures are from the 1st ed. AD&D Fiend Folio, not surprising as The Fiend Folio was comprised of British created monsters first published in The White Dwarf. However, the inner fold hid a page of various torture devices with naked female victims on them. And I've been given to understand that Slaneeshi daemonettes no longer have bare breasts, and Sisters Redemptia now have merely revealing clothes instead of strategically placed purity seals. So GW is pretending they are wholesome and family-friendly now when historically they have not been.

 Pacific wrote:
Wasn't it Gav Thorpe and the third edition rulebook? I think that was the first mention we had of it.

I choose to completely ignore that bit of background (as is my right, as a grognard), because we already have one bio-terror faction and I like the idea of the Ork families and clans that you had in the Rogue Trader Ork books, which were just so much more flavourful.

Gorka Morka was where it was first presented.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
Wasn't it Gav Thorpe and the third edition rulebook? I think that was the first mention we had of it.

I choose to completely ignore that bit of background (as is my right, as a grognard), because we already have one bio-terror faction and I like the idea of the Ork families and clans that you had in the Rogue Trader Ork books, which were just so much more flavourful.

Gorka Morka was where it was first presented.

Oh man, yes! That was a game I missed and have always wanted to play. Is the book worth a read if I can find it?

 Fugazi wrote:
It always struck me as odd. Like, here's an orc (in spaaaaaace, so it's an ork). We all know what an orc is, from either LotR or D&D. So let's make it a fungus?

I don't know. Always seemed like a weird choice.

Really? I thought it was brilliant.

[my standard rant on orks, abbreviated as much as I can]

I feel like 40K orks are one of the most creative and underappreciated 'ecologies' in science fiction/fantasy. The ecology is incredibly simple to explain, but has all these hidden aspects that make it creatively useful, especially for a wargame.

Orks reproduce through fungal spores, emerge almost fully grown ('yoofs'), and have (a lot of) their knowledge encoded within them. Pain doesn't seem to engender anxiety or dread in them, and they can heal from almost any non-mortal injury (and mortal injuries can be fixed with ork parts and staples).

This means:

•Orks have no evolutionary reason to have nurturing instincts.
•Their reproduction isn't tied to their own survival nearly as much as other races. Violent death is a reproductive strategy.
•Their knowledge is strongly ingrained in them at birth, so there's no need for schooling, or for the whole ideas of protecting the youth and revering the elders.
•Violent conflict is relatively low-risk for them, both personally, and as a species. They aren't going to have disabled war veterans.

It allows them to be violent, conflict-loving hooligans with no respect, without actually making them slaves to Chaos and mustache-twisting evil guys. Yes, they are insanely violent and cruel from a human perspective, but no so much from their own.

 Fugazi wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
Wasn't it Gav Thorpe and the third edition rulebook? I think that was the first mention we had of it.

I choose to completely ignore that bit of background (as is my right, as a grognard), because we already have one bio-terror faction and I like the idea of the Ork families and clans that you had in the Rogue Trader Ork books, which were just so much more flavourful.

Gorka Morka was where it was first presented.

Oh man, yes! That was a game I missed and have always wanted to play. Is the book worth a read if I can find it?

I’m….not sure. For my sins, I’ve never owned Gorka Morka. Was too invested in Necromunda, and too student to afford another game system. Certainly I’ve never heard much in the way of bad words against it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Da Butcha wrote:

 Fugazi wrote:
It always struck me as odd. Like, here's an orc (in spaaaaaace, so it's an ork). We all know what an orc is, from either LotR or D&D. So let's make it a fungus?

I don't know. Always seemed like a weird choice.

Really? I thought it was brilliant.

[my standard rant on orks, abbreviated as much as I can]

I feel like 40K orks are one of the most creative and underappreciated 'ecologies' in science fiction/fantasy. The ecology is incredibly simple to explain, but has all these hidden aspects that make it creatively useful, especially for a wargame.

Orks reproduce through fungal spores, emerge almost fully grown ('yoofs'), and have (a lot of) their knowledge encoded within them. Pain doesn't seem to engender anxiety or dread in them, and they can heal from almost any non-mortal injury (and mortal injuries can be fixed with ork parts and staples).

This means:

•Orks have no evolutionary reason to have nurturing instincts.
•Their reproduction isn't tied to their own survival nearly as much as other races. Violent death is a reproductive strategy.
•Their knowledge is strongly ingrained in them at birth, so there's no need for schooling, or for the whole ideas of protecting the youth and revering the elders.
•Violent conflict is relatively low-risk for them, both personally, and as a species. They aren't going to have disabled war veterans.

It allows them to be violent, conflict-loving hooligans with no respect, without actually making them slaves to Chaos and mustache-twisting evil guys. Yes, they are insanely violent and cruel from a human perspective, but no so much from their own.

They are, in their own unique way? A Perfect Society. All accept and embrace one rule of law - that might makes right. If you beat someone up and Nick all their stuff? You deserve it more. If they sucker punch you the next day and Nick it all back? Now they deserve it more.

It’s wild and anarchic to non-Orks, but it’s clearly a very successful model. One can even argue they lack true malice because of that life view. Yes they enslave other species and treat them poorly. But one could argue they just lack the understanding that different species have different merits. Orks will put down a slave rebellion, sure. But they take little to no steps to actively defuse such. Because to the Orky mindset, if the slaves are now ‘ard enuff? Good for them.

Cruel? Yes. But not malice. And almost certainly not evil. Like Tyranids they’re just following their genetic imperative.

Orks weren't explicitly fungal in rogue trader, but they've always been plant-like. In RT they were green because of symbiotic algae on their skin (which is part of why they're so tough.

The fungi thing didn't spring out of nowhere, the spores (heh) were planted right from the beginning

Now I feel the need to go dig out Waaagh! The Orks and my RT book to find "the truth"!

 Easy E wrote:
Now I feel the need to go dig out Waaagh! The Orks and my RT book to find "the truth"!

Got you covered. Page 5, "Ork Physiology"

Page 6: Snotlings (Snotlings are explicitly symbiotic to fungi in RT)

Page 35 & 91 repeat that Snotlings are fungus, and elaborates that a Snotling that eats too much fungus becomes one (gotta love RT body horror)

so in RT
Orks (and all greenskins): Symbiotic with Algae
Snots specifically: Symbiotic with Fungus


so the orks are fungus thing didn't pop out fully-formed in Gorkamorka or 3rd edition or whatever, the greenskin/fungus connection was always there, it just wasn't explicitly the Orks that were the fungal ones

 Easy E wrote:
Now I feel the need to go dig out Waaagh! The Orks and my RT book to find "the truth"!

*record ziiiiiiiiiiipppp*

You Sir!

Yes Sir, you Sir. You ‘orrible little man!

You Sir should be digging out your Waaargh! The Orks regardless, Sir!

As should we all!

Because it is a terrific book!

Wait, this is all getting a bit too positive. Time for a quick, truly tongue in cheek, grump.

Damn kids. On my lawn. Where they shouldn’t be. Complaining the rules are a bit ropey. It’s….its….always been that way! We just mended and made do!

Damn kids! 😂😂

Da Butcha wrote:Really? I thought it was brilliant.

[my standard rant on orks, abbreviated as much as I can]

I feel like 40K orks are one of the most creative and underappreciated 'ecologies' in science fiction/fantasy. The ecology is incredibly simple to explain, but has all these hidden aspects that make it creatively useful, especially for a wargame.

Totally get your perspective (and if you have an unabbreviated rant, I'd love to read it, and you can certainly feel free to PM it). Believe it or not, I mostly agree with you. I just wish Orks were orcs and the fungoid creatures were some other name. So my grumpy grognard take is really just a technicality.

Charax wrote:Orks weren't explicitly fungal in rogue trader, but they've always been plant-like. In RT they were green because of symbiotic algae on their skin (which is part of why they're so tough.

The fungi thing didn't spring out of nowhere, the spores (heh) were planted right from the beginning

Page 185 of RT: "Humans and Orks share a similar physiology..." so I don't buy that they've always been plant-like. I'd say the opposite, there were explicitly not fungal in RT. But I don't have the Waaaaagh or Gorka Morka books, so if it changed by then, so be it.

EDIT: I wrote the post before seeing Charax's subsequent post. Thank you, Charax, for posting those excerpts.

 Fugazi wrote:

Charax wrote:Orks weren't explicitly fungal in rogue trader, but they've always been plant-like. In RT they were green because of symbiotic algae on their skin (which is part of why they're so tough.

The fungi thing didn't spring out of nowhere, the spores (heh) were planted right from the beginning

Page 185 of RT: "Humans and Orks share a similar physiology..." so I don't buy that they've always been plant-like. I'd say the opposite, there were explicitly not fungal in RT. But I don't have the Waaaaagh or Gorka Morka books, so if it changed by then, so be it.

But...I...literally...just...

15 minutes ago...

4 separate quotes...

Charax wrote:

 Fugazi wrote:

Charax wrote:Orks weren't explicitly fungal in rogue trader, but they've always been plant-like. In RT they were green because of symbiotic algae on their skin (which is part of why they're so tough.

The fungi thing didn't spring out of nowhere, the spores (heh) were planted right from the beginning

Page 185 of RT: "Humans and Orks share a similar physiology..." so I don't buy that they've always been plant-like. I'd say the opposite, there were explicitly not fungal in RT. But I don't have the Waaaaagh or Gorka Morka books, so if it changed by then, so be it.

But...I...literally...just...

15 minutes ago...

4 separate quotes...

I know, I know. I was typing when you posted. Thanks for posting!

Also also also?

Orks need Goffik Rokkerz back.

Because if there’s any army which requires a thrash or punk soundtrack?

It’s Orks.

I remember when you had to pay for unit upgrades

flipping kids today eh?

I ‘member a time when t’internet didn’t bother my poor, sad, foetid mire of a brain with Netlists and Meta and increasingly confusing math hammer where it’s expressed as percentage and not fractions!

I remember when you had to decide between a cheap bare bones infantry squad that was going to die on the first turn, or one with all the bells and whistles that costed a 50% extra.

M.

Da Butcha wrote:

 Fugazi wrote:
It always struck me as odd. Like, here's an orc (in spaaaaaace, so it's an ork). We all know what an orc is, from either LotR or D&D. So let's make it a fungus?

I don't know. Always seemed like a weird choice.

Really? I thought it was brilliant.

[my standard rant on orks, abbreviated as much as I can]

I feel like 40K orks are one of the most creative and underappreciated 'ecologies' in science fiction/fantasy. The ecology is incredibly simple to explain, but has all these hidden aspects that make it creatively useful, especially for a wargame.

Orks reproduce through fungal spores, emerge almost fully grown ('yoofs'), and have (a lot of) their knowledge encoded within them. Pain doesn't seem to engender anxiety or dread in them, and they can heal from almost any non-mortal injury (and mortal injuries can be fixed with ork parts and staples).

This means:

•Orks have no evolutionary reason to have nurturing instincts.
•Their reproduction isn't tied to their own survival nearly as much as other races. Violent death is a reproductive strategy.
•Their knowledge is strongly ingrained in them at birth, so there's no need for schooling, or for the whole ideas of protecting the youth and revering the elders.
•Violent conflict is relatively low-risk for them, both personally, and as a species. They aren't going to have disabled war veterans.

It allows them to be violent, conflict-loving hooligans with no respect, without actually making them slaves to Chaos and mustache-twisting evil guys. Yes, they are insanely violent and cruel from a human perspective, but no so much from their own.

Basically, they're prepubescent boys - no interest in girls, love to brawl, no thought for the future and they have terrible judgement regarding risk.

I will say that this kind of wrecks the earlier fluff about Stormboyz being taught the ropes of fighting and "outgrowing" discipline as they get older.

There's also the clan loyalty thing, which makes no sense if they're just fungi. Why feel loyalty to anyone or anything?

I also think that Orks being indifferent to death because its the only way they reproduce and they lack any kind of fear instinct is less interesting than the notion that they are so carried away by the WAAAAGH that it supersedes self-preservation.

‘damned kids, get off my lawn”

I remember when proper grumpy grognards didn't take to the internet to moan.... oh.. wait...

stroller wrote:
‘damned kids, get off my lawn”

I remember when proper grumpy grognards didn't take to the internet to moan.... oh.. wait...

I used to write my MP to moan!

stroller wrote:
‘damned kids, get off my lawn”

I remember when proper grumpy grognards didn't take to the internet to moan.... oh.. wait...

Moaning took place at conventions or in letters to the editors of gaming magazines.

I think what the internet did was act as an accelerant in spreading information that was already out there. Going through old games and magazines, certain strategies and "hacks" emerged, they just took a while to get around.

A great example of this is that when 4th ed. 40k came out and people began to realize that GW was now doing a "product cycle" rather than trying for a "definitive edition," the 2nd ed. retro movement was able to compare notes and found that there was a surprising overlap in what people felt needed to be fixed.

It was kind of weird to discover that players from around the world all agreed on a set of relatively simple fixes and many had already been using them.

Flame wars also got faster. Kids today have no idea of the patience required for waiting a week or more to see the replies to your sick burn. Nowadays, you can burn out a thread in a matter of days, but when I was young, people would argue for years over this stuff, and don't get me started about letters crossing each other in the mail.

Now you can go full nuclear over a rules dispute and even get banned in a single day, all in the comfort of your own home. You don't even need to go the post office to buy stamps! Luxury!