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HBMC:
Since you are on the inside could you care to explain a few things for our very frustrated gaming group over here?

1: Why the differences between weapon damage etc between things like deathwatch and black crusade. Why is a chaos marine bolter or chainsword better then a deathwatch marine ditto?
Why is one longlas sniper rifle better (felling) in one book and completely useless in another and that crappy one is actually on pair with the oh so super elite astartes scout sniper water rifle that weighs 40 kg?
Comparing all this to the super hyped grey knight melee weapons just want to make me cry.

It seems all the expansions can only be used internally and not cross over because of difficulties aligning psycher rules, weapon damage and even stat lines like unnatural traits. This is slowed. Why not just doing all the books inter-usable?

There is no balance when using black crusade and co playing it with for example deamonhunters since one side is totally screwed when compared.
The resulting houserules needed to balance things are just something that should have never have to happened in the first place.

2: Why are almost all weapons dealing out the same damage. The whole armour pen system sucks ass. There is no difference in shooting an unarmoured character with a black powder pistol and a laspistol or a bow and arrow and an autogun. Its lame and completely destroys the gameplay and "realistic" factor.
Sure you want to be able to mix the character groups so that a primitive bow and arrow barbarian can play along with a stormtrooper with a hellgun since they both do almost the same damage but ffs what is this crap.

3: The armour pen system. How idiotic is it to do the same damage against an unarmoured target using two different weapons that have the same damage but one is designed to take out super heavy armour and one is not.
Why cant pen value that isnt used for penetrating armour carry over to do more damage if no armour is present?
A plasma pistol is supposed to do MORE damage across the board ffs and not only when the target is wearing armour.

4: Why the ridiculously low weapon damages?
How do I explain to my astonished player that the multimelta he just fired of point blank into the face of an unarmoured acolyte level enemy didnt even cause critical damage? A heavy weapon space marines use to melt leman russ tanks barely tickles a space marine when fired on one and you need luck to kill a nekkid human with a direct hit. Really?
I mean wtf is this, I seriously need to know what the re***d design team were smoking when they made all the weapon damage stats, a mentally challenged monkey could have done a better job then that.

It´s beyond ridiculous, everything is so toned down and so equalized only wearing armour makes a difference and pretty much nothing, no matter how awesome and destructive it is in the fluff, will cause a death upon hit to even a naked human child. Another of my players rewrote his character in anger sicne he planned his build and put his xp on strenght and the meltagun skill to be able to carry the damned thing and melt stuff but hey, might as well saved his strenght and bought himself a super soaker, wouldnt make much difference.

5: Why is everything so damned equalized? In the fluff a marine can mow down dozens of orks before they even get the chance of reaching him. In the RPG a marine can shoot for all he is worth and he might even wound an ork while it rushes him and gives the marine a hard time in melee.
It is right there in black crusade, a marine character is oh so much better because he...hold on now, does on average 2-4 points more in damage. Wow. A marine is so mighty he actually needs to whack a naked cultist in the head twice with his chainsword in order to kill him contrary to another cultist that needs to whack 4 times. Here goes the fluff of space marines cleaving their mortal foes in half with every blow.

6: Why do I need to do a ton of house rules just to have the game feel slightly and I mean slightly more in accordance to actual fluff and descriptions in said rule books themselves?
Why do I need to allocate unused pen values to make heavy weapons actually do something against infantry? Why do my deathwatch players have to go to the black crusade rulebook and pick chaos weapons and wargear becuase they think chaos marines have better things.
And why again did my grey knight player throw away his oh so awesome nemesis sword and pick up a chaos marine melee weapon instead because he felt there was no use using his own crap he was forced to wield since it was as effective as a padded piece of cardboard?

I nowdays buy the books just for the cool fluff and playing the game takes an effort not to laugh at the ridicule of trying to match it with the awesome fluff written in the very books I use to lead RPG games with.
First my players read the stories of how awesome this and that is, how a few acolytes or deathwatch marines wade through dangers and save the day and they want to play the games and then...well, a lot of laughter and disbelief having the actual deathwatch chickens*it marines or acolytes struggle with a few orks or cultists because they shoot waterguns.
Why must I invent special weapon rules just to get the right feeling for my grey knight player?

7: Cerrtain rules are just broken and not thought over the slightest. Take for example the skill "dodge".
Basically the more levels you suceed the roll with the more attacks you manage to dodge.
Now the most attacks are 3 (swift and lightning attack) so when my ascended throne agent characters attacked an dark eldar wytch (taken out from one of the creature books) what happened?
How about 60 in agility, unnatural agility and +20 to dodge?
Does it seem even remotely possible to be able to hit that thing even if all 3 attacks go in?

For a game that goes to extreme lenghts to equalize everything this seems to be the height of idiocy.

To make fun of me and the game itself another throne agent player, an assassin, just for the hell of it sought up a dark eldar wytch and engaged in melee combat.
The former DE stats vs her own 85-ish dodge skill.
Resulting in the worst and more boring session of rpg gaming session so far, people started to do other things while she duked in out against the wytch, an endless series of hit-dodge-hit-dodge occurred and went on and on and on. Nice rules yeah, nice and "equalized" for sure.



Do bring these things up the next time you are in the playtesting group because they completely ruin the game for not only all of us but for the other two gaming groups amongst people I know here. They gave up on this crap, I keep going but just because I love the fluff. Hell the original LoTR rpg 15-or-so years ago had better damage and skill rules and thus a better gaming experience then this.
As I said, I buy the books for the fluff alone and have given up hope of good gaming from them without extensive alterations. I can handle it since I have been playing and leading rpg games for 23 years now but I cant imagine anyone in my gaming group being able to pick up and lead this crap with smoothness because all the balance and rules issues.

Pyriel... with what you mentioned about weapon damage and whatnot.... are you using it straight out of the book, or are you accounting for the errata?

Also... how many reactions are does that DE Wytch have? Does the Wytch have extra reactions or skills that grant extra ones? Kinda at a loss as to why a sustained and focused attack of several people can't even hit once...

granted... we had 2 marines take 2 turns to hit one with bolters... she got ripped apart when she got hit...

Pyriel- wrote:HBMC:
Since you are on the inside could you care to explain a few things for our very frustrated gaming group over here?

HBMC might not be allowed to comment on it, so I'll take a crack. BTW: I'm going to most likely ignore some of the questions and ranting along the way.

Pyriel- wrote:
1: Why the differences between weapon damage etc between things like deathwatch and black crusade. Why is a chaos marine bolter or chainsword better then a deathwatch marine ditto?
Why is one longlas sniper rifle better (felling) in one book and completely useless in another and that crappy one is actually on pair with the oh so super elite astartes scout sniper water rifle that weighs 40 kg?
Comparing all this to the super hyped grey knight melee weapons just want to make me cry.

It seems all the expansions can only be used internally and not cross over because of difficulties aligning psycher rules, weapon damage and even stat lines like unnatural traits. This is slowed. Why not just doing all the books inter-usable?

There is no balance when using black crusade and co playing it with for example deamonhunters since one side is totally screwed when compared.
The resulting houserules needed to balance things are just something that should have never have to happened in the first place.

Because each game is tested and balanced internally to it, not across the games. This issue actually has been around since Rogue Trader, and is, unfortunately, rather the fault of the original designers at Black Industries, who did all the original design work on the system. FFG has on occasion been obviously struggling with what has gone before, so to speak, but have not really seemingly found a good resolution to this. The damages were altered in an attempt to make SM more epic, as BI thoughtfully issued statements that bolters in DH/RT were not the same as SM bolters, and developed a slightly different system for psykers the second time around. This design decision, which, unless I'm mistaken, GW tends to enforce, throws off all the other weapons, and so they decided to keep balance internal to a given game.

Pyriel- wrote:
2: Why are almost all weapons dealing out the same damage. The whole armour pen system sucks ass. There is no difference in shooting an unarmoured character with a black powder pistol and a laspistol or a bow and arrow and an autogun. Its lame and completely destroys the gameplay and "realistic" factor.
Sure you want to be able to mix the character groups so that a primitive bow and arrow barbarian can play along with a stormtrooper with a hellgun since they both do almost the same damage but ffs what is this crap.

Well, one, you are grotesquely underestimating what those weapons in the hands of someone who lives or dies by them, will do do to you. A flintlock pistol can, for example, kill you through a kevlar vest. An arrow actually will simply go through it. Two, this was likely a deliberate design design so that npcs armed with such were a real threat to PCs with modern toys. Further, again, this was not originally FFG's decision, it came from BI.

Pyriel- wrote:
4: Why the ridiculously low weapon damages?
How do I explain to my astonished player that the multimelta he just fired of point blank into the face of an unarmoured acolyte level enemy didnt even cause critical damage? A heavy weapon space marines use to melt leman russ tanks barely tickles a space marine when fired on one and you need luck to kill a nekkid human with a direct hit. Really?
I mean wtf is this, I seriously need to know what the re***d design team were smoking when they made all the weapon damage stats, a mentally challenged monkey could have done a better job then that.

Unless he rolled really badly, I'm not sure how he didn't die from a multimelta hit. Are you enforcing the 25 HP limit?

I left out the rest, as most of it kept coming back to equalized damage and not feeling epic enough for a Grey Knight player, and not being 'fluff' enough.


Of course, mind you, if we followed fluff too closely, game balance would be impossible. Grey Knights would not need drop pods, they'd simply ride vortex bombs down as their means of deployment, and look in the direction of other characters to deal damage equivalent to an orbital strike while going unarmored to give an Imperitor class titan a sporting chance at wounding them with it's volcano cannon. A lot of the authors have a problem with their favorite chapter's founder being the Primarch Mary-Sue, and they constantly seem to try and upstage the other guys work.

Whats the 25 HP limit?

Grarg wrote:Whats the 25 HP limit?

The Ascension Book from DH (wisely I think) suggests limiting normal humans to 25 wounds maximum so things don't get ridiculous. Some classes like Arbitrators can gets upwards of 28 or so wounds before Ascension even takes effect.

Grarg wrote:Whats the 25 HP limit?

Oh, there's a note in the game that while a player can min max stats to get huge HP, the GM should never allow anything human to have more then 25 hit points (players or otherwise) because it breaks the game. Dunno if it's in DW and BC off the top of my head, but it's in DH, Ascension and Rogue Trader.

Don't think that's in DW. I think the highest wounds our group has is... 23. Sound constitution is freaking expensive, and my apothecary can heal a minimum of 11 wounds per encounter.

Pyriel- wrote:Since you are on the inside could you care to explain a few things for our very frustrated gaming group over here?

I do not speak for or on behalf of FFG (as stated in my sig), but I will answer where appropriate and wherever it does not breach the terms of the NDA's I've signed.

Pyriel- wrote:1: Why the differences between weapon damage etc between things like deathwatch and black crusade. Why is a chaos marine bolter or chainsword better then a deathwatch marine ditto?

Uhh... they're not? Deathwatch weapons, as per the RAW in the DW Core Rulebook, are streets ahead of Legion weapons when it comes to damage. This was later errata'd in the most recent DW errata, and now the weapon damage matches.

Pyriel- wrote:Why is one longlas sniper rifle better (felling) in one book and completely useless in another and that crappy one is actually on pair with the oh so super elite astartes scout sniper water rifle that weighs 40 kg?

The Long Las has Accurate. Accurate means it is never useless (IMO) as the extra damage is very good at taking down single high-wound targets.

Pyriel- wrote:Comparing all this to the super hyped grey knight melee weapons just want to make me cry.

Not sure what you mean here, so I won't comment.

Pyriel- wrote:It seems all the expansions can only be used internally and not cross over because of difficulties aligning psycher rules, weapon damage and even stat lines like unnatural traits. This is slowed. Why not just doing all the books inter-usable?

It's interesting, we just had a conversation about this at the FFG boards. It didn't end well. I'll give you my canned response:

Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch and Black Crusade are four different games. They may share a base level of rule mechanics, but each release for each line caters to that product line and that product line alone. Any crossover between the four is incidental. Moreover, each new game has been an evolution of the one before it. Rogue Trader took a number of the mistakes (and errata) from Dark Heresy, and improved it. Deathwatch was a further refinement of Rogue Trader. Black Crusade took more extensive steps to re-work the rules.

Calling it 'slowed' is... silly.

Pyriel- wrote:There is no balance when using black crusade and co playing it with for example deamonhunters since one side is totally screwed when compared.
The resulting houserules needed to balance things are just something that should have never have to happened in the first place.

Daemon Hunter is a Dark Heresy expansion and therefore will not mesh perfectly with the rules for a different game.

Pyriel- wrote:2: Why are almost all weapons dealing out the same damage. The whole armour pen system sucks ass. There is no difference in shooting an unarmoured character with a black powder pistol and a laspistol or a bow and arrow and an autogun. Its lame and completely destroys the gameplay and "realistic" factor.
Sure you want to be able to mix the character groups so that a primitive bow and arrow barbarian can play along with a stormtrooper with a hellgun since they both do almost the same damage but ffs what is this crap.

I really don't know what you're talking about here, but like the Baron, I think I might skip over the comments of yours that are more personal opinion rants than actual questions.

Pyriel- wrote:7: Cerrtain rules are just broken and not thought over the slightest. Take for example the skill "dodge".
Basically the more levels you suceed the roll with the more attacks you manage to dodge.
Now the most attacks are 3 (swift and lightning attack) so when my ascended throne agent characters attacked an dark eldar wytch (taken out from one of the creature books) what happened?
How about 60 in agility, unnatural agility and +20 to dodge?
Does it seem even remotely possible to be able to hit that thing even if all 3 attacks go in?

Technically speaking, if you're following the rules of Dark Heresy, Lightning Attack is 3 separate attacks. You can only Dodge one attack per turn (unless you have the Step Aside Talent), so even with all those stacked abilities you could only dodge one of those 3 attacks. You'd Dodge it really well but would be helpless against the other two.

Pyriel- wrote:Do bring these things up the next time you are in the playtesting group because they completely ruin the game for not only all of us but for the other two gaming groups amongst people I know here. They gave up on this crap, I keep going but just because I love the fluff. Hell the original LoTR rpg 15-or-so years ago had better damage and skill rules and thus a better gaming experience then this.

Ok. That's your experience. I've not heard anyone speak like this before, or rant about armour and weapon damage. There are areas of Ascension that don't work properly (the Assassin's ability to Dodge is one of them), but I've never encountered nor heard of anyone having serious problems due to weapon damage or the armour system.

Tome of Fate, the first of 4 source books for Black Crusade, has a teaser up at FFG ... http://fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=3119

This one deals with Tzeench, so I assume the other 3 will be on a separate Ruinous Power!

Every damned day - sometimes multiple times a day - for the past three weeks I've been checking the FFG website to see when they'd announce Tome of Fate. Gah... took 'em long enough!

Anyway, here's the full announcement text:

FFG wrote:Master the Secrets of Chaos
Announcing The Tome of Fate, an upcoming supplement for Black Crusade



“Your naiveté amuses me, child. There is no Fate. There is only the Will of Tzeentch."
–Verial Jenneque, Sorceress of Q’Sal

Tzeentch, the Chaos God of Change, weaves the unfathomable strands of Fate from his Impossible Labyrinth deep within the warp. For the innumerable masses, Fate is a cruel and arbitrary force...but for the Tzeentch’s chosen few, it is a path to ultimate power.

Fantasy Flight Games is pleased to announce the upcoming release of The Tome of Fate, a supplement for Black Crusade! The first of four books delving into the darkest secrets of the Ruinous Powers, The Tome of Fate presents invaluable information on the Lord of Lies. In its pages, players will learn of his dark servants, both daemonic and mortal, and how his influence is felt across the Screaming Vortex. With new weapons and psychic powers to aid them, Heretics can go forth across that unholy stretch of stars and beyond into the depths of the fallen Imperium, ready to challenge Fate and make it their own.


A force to be feared...or studied

What is Fate? For many Heretics, Fate is what they have fought against their entire lives. It was cruel Fate that led xenos raiders to burn their family to broken cinders, capricious Fate that caused their lesser sibling to gain the family title instead of themselves, uncaring Fate that led the Inquisition to mistakenly torture them as a traitor and thus make them one. Fate has made them into Heretics, and thus they hate it as much as they hate the Imperium itself.

Others with a greater knowledge and appreciation of the True Mysteries know that Fate is never random or meaningless, no blind series of happenstance or coincidence. There is a Grand Scheme to all things, and thus a Grand Schemer. That Schemer is the Chaos Power known as Tzeentch. Those following this god strive to know his ways, and thus the hidden threads that bind all things to his will in the vast tapestry that is Fate itself. Such an effort is surely futile, for no mortal mind can possibly comprehend such infinite complexity, but even small glimmers of the Will of Tzeentch allow for more power than could be imagined. To gain such power, many Heretics are willing to risk all, including madness or mutation, for they know that either they must control their Fate, or Fate will control them.


Sorcery, change, and lies



The Tome of Fate introduces four new Tzeentch-centric Heretic Archetypes, as well as foul daemons, arcane weaponry, mighty daemon engines, and vile minions for followers of the Master of Fate. Players of all alignments will also gain potent new psychic powers and daemonic rites to fuel their struggle against the hated Imperium. The fallen forges of the Hollows, the mutants of Dread Korvaska, and the ancient Necrons awakening from within the Pillars of Eternity: these and other secrets of the Screaming Vortex shall stand revealed. All this and more lies within The Tome of Fate, including a dangerous new adventure on the sorcerous world of Q’Sal!

Do you possess the force of will to stand among Tzeentch’s chosen? Check back in the coming weeks as we preview The Tome of Fate, and look for it on store shelves in the second quarter of 2012!

Anyway, this should be awesome. It was heaps of fun writing parts of this book, and as FFG does more previews I hope to be able to talk more about it. I'm really looking forward to seeing the artwork!

I think I'll have to pick that up when it comes out.

You probably can't answer, but is there any information on the Thousand Sons or Ahriman's exiled coven in there?

You're right; I can't answer.

That and I don't actually remember off the top of my head.

Can't wait for the other god-specific books!

woo, more things to drop cash on.
i've been looking forward to getting more black crusade books

Ok so I know all the books are separate games but is there a formula or cheat sheet to use elements from all the games and roll them all up into one say Dark Heresy game?

Black Crusade has a 'how to use X with Y' section, of converting rules back and forth.

I don't really think there's a formula to it though, more a case of comparison and logical inference. For instance, if something with Toughness 40 has Unnatural Toughness (4) in Black Crusade, then obviously that'd be Unnatural Toughness (x2) in Dark Heresy. If that same unit instead had Unnatural Toughness (5), then a simple (x2) on the Dark Heresy rules wouldn't quite work, but as it is the closest, it is probably the best solution.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Black Crusade has a 'how to use X with Y' section, of converting rules back and forth.

I don't really think there's a formula to it though, more a case of comparison and logical inference. For instance, if something with Toughness 40 has Unnatural Toughness (4) in Black Crusade, then obviously that'd be Unnatural Toughness (x2) in Dark Heresy. If that same unit instead had Unnatural Toughness (5), then a simple (x2) on the Dark Heresy rules wouldn't quite work, but as it is the closest, it is probably the best solution.

Ok thanks acualy justt bought a copy of Black Crusade and it's first expansion on friday so just waiting for the delivery, thanks again for the answers thought

H.B.M.C. wrote:

FFG wrote:[b]Master the Secrets of Chaos

I shouldve followed this thread more closely, but up till now I never had a chance to pick up any of these books (just cuz I like the fluff, no time to play sadly). I did order some a couple of days back, and this one is a must (Tzeentch art? Shuddup and take my money!!!!!)

HMBC, I never noticed you were involved with FFG! Kudos!! Already looking forward to the tome of fate!!

Pyriel... with what you mentioned about weapon damage and whatnot.... are you using it straight out of the book, or are you accounting for the errata?

Errata? Is there some new online FAQ that I dont know about? Link?

Also... how many reactions are does that DE Wytch have? Does the Wytch have extra reactions or skills that grant extra ones? Kinda at a loss as to why a sustained and focused attack of several people can't even hit once...

All I remember was a dodge skill in the 90-ies and some reflex skill that made it even harder to have her fail a dodge test. It might have been a harlequin or a DE wytch.
The point is that ONE character simply cannot kill that thing since at most you get 3 attacks (or even more shooting hits) but every success that dodge rolls removes one attack.

How screwed up are the rules if it takes multiple characters to wound one eldar? What if there was no help around, that means an encounter that cannot be won since you get hits but cant ever hit back and we are not talking about deamon princes or other super beefed up monster opponents.

Because each game is tested and balanced internally to it, not across the games. This issue actually has been around since Rogue Trader, and is, unfortunately, rather the fault of the original designers at Black Industries,

This is what pisses me of to no end. It is so inhumanly moronic that I hope the idiot who thought this idea up was fired pronto.
Now I have to do a lot of added work that is never perfect if the players wants to use entries from multiple books that are supposed to cover the very same gakking universe!
One wants a deamon hunter, one a deathwatch marine, one explorator and one accolyte and they are trapped in the screaming vortex, wow thanks for nothing design idiots.
It means I need to balance the whole psychic power and systems from four different psycher systems, four different weapon stats and damage numbers and different rules that handle unnatural characteristics. What world class moron came up with this "solution" anyway?

The damages were altered in an attempt to make SM more epic, as BI thoughtfully issued statements that bolters in DH/RT were not the same as SM bolters, and developed a slightly different system for psykers the second time around. This design decision, which, unless I'm mistaken, GW tends to enforce, throws off all the other weapons, and so they decided to keep balance internal to a given game.

I actually accepted this reasoning at first...that it until I realized it is a damned lie since not even weapons for the same character group have the same stats over the different rule books. I said it before and I say it again, my deamonhunter threw away his super oh so blessed and fluffy powerful weapons for chaos ditto.

Well, one, you are grotesquely underestimating what those weapons in the hands of someone who lives or dies by them, will do do to you. A flintlock pistol can, for example, kill you through a kevlar vest

Really? That is grasping straws and you know it. In older times infantry harnesks were even fired upon by black powder weapons to see if they could resist a shot before being passed over as acceptable armours.

and in this crap game there is little damage difference between a black powder pirate pistol and a hellgun pistol. That is unless you are wearing some armour but hey, an astarted meltagun still doesnt jack better if the targeted accolyte removes his powerarmour...he will still in all probability survive a direct hit to the face even if being butt nekkid. 18 damage on average for a space marine meltagun...wow, simply wow.

Yes I enforce the 25 hp limit for "mortals" unless they have a fluffy excuse to go over.

Hence my claim that our deathwatch marines went into combat with their blessed super soakers that according to the fluff text are supposed to melt battle tanks. Why even bother.

Of course, mind you, if we followed fluff too closely, game balance would be impossible.

I understand this but please, it can be taken a bit to the fluffier side instea of this lame crap.
Throne agents and even accolytes are more powerful then veteran marines in this game. We have a new layer amongst a throne agent group, a blood angel with a total of 25000 ex, he is the weakest link in the whole team, he is far from even close in be it shooting, surviving wounds and melee then the rest of the "mortals" in there and it makes for some very bad fluff when roleplayed. You just dont see a big marine asking those little humans humbly for private lessons in swordmanship or shooting, it´s ridiculous.
Talk about feeling stupid when you select a space marine for the purpose of getting that strong combat character while forfeiting the subtler skill sets and in the end being treated like a little child by the group of humans.
This is balance and fluff being thrown out the proverbial window by the idiot designers.

The last example of this was perfectly highlited the last time we have a game which was actually a few hours yesterday when my friends came over for a little game. In the adventure one of the throne agents totally botched a psychic roll getting a 97 or so on the perils of the warp table and failing WP. The agent became possessed and turned into an unbound deamon host, we randomized the hosts stats and abilities.
Our blood angel thought this would be a perfect thing for him to take down, setting up his lascannon and fireing away at range. He did damage but the return fire from the deamon hosts psychic pyromancy power instantkilled the blood angel in one shot and he had 30 wounds, a power armour and confidence to boost. Poor sod had to permanently burn a fate point to barely survive in a vegetative state looking like a charred piece of meat.

What happened? One of the other "human" throne agents promptly engaged the deamon host, not only taking it down but actually succeeded in physically imprisoning it (for later excorism). Should have seen the look on the BA controllers face...

Uhh... they're not? Deathwatch weapons, as per the RAW in the DW Core Rulebook, are streets ahead of Legion weapons when it comes to damage. This was later errata'd in the most recent DW errata, and now the weapon damage matches.

Please show me the link to said errata.
What I have here before me are the following:
Deathwatch bolter - 2D10 + 5 damage AP AP 5
Black crusade chaos marine bolter - D10 + 9 damage AP 4
Unless you roll a "0" the chaos bolter is better.

Heavy bolter is
Deathwatch 2D10+ 10 AP 6
Chaos D10 + 12 AP 5
Deathwatch better.

Grey knight stormbolter D10 + 9 AP5

Deathwatch chainsword D10 +3
Chaos chainsword D10 + 5 (chaos better)
Dark heresy chainsword D10 + 2 (again, what a "wow" difference in damage between a human chainsword and an astartes ditto, one whole damage point)

Dark heresy power sword D10 + 5 AP6
Deathwatch power sword D10 + 6 AP6 (wow what a difference between human and marine weapons)
Chaos power sword D10 + 6 AP6
Grey knight nemesis sword D10 +2 AP2 (utterly pathetic)

Deathwatch heavy flamer 2D10 + 6 AP6
Grey Knight Incinerator 2D10 + 6 AP6
Chaos heavy flamer D10 + 12 AP6 (better then the loyalist version and better then the grey knights that is supposed to be better then a normal marine heavy flamer)


So in reality the GK marine threw away his junk that we all know was oh so highly praised in the fluff texts but in reality was as effective as an accolyte pigstick, that is unless he runs around constantly high on hammerhand since he would then get some 4-or-so added damage which would STILL make it inferior and cause him to risk a lot of perils rolls (so what´s the point anyway).

Thus please show me the errata that actually makes it worth for my players to pick up their characters of choice like the grey knight without getting screwed over every time there is a battle.

The Long Las has Accurate. Accurate means it is never useless (IMO) as the extra damage is very good at taking down single high-wound targets.

So the D10 + 3 long las damage averaging 8, is useful for exactly what?
It was actually my first choice in the game, an IG sniper but hen I realized I will simply be you n a b l e to kill even one lousy ork even if he is butt naked, stands perfectly still and lets me empty my whole long las magazine into his face hitting with every single shot I will N O T take down the ork.

This is how bad this game and its weapon damage design is! Who the hell wants that kind of gaming feeling?

Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch and Black Crusade are four different games. They may share a base level of rule mechanics, but each release for each line caters to that product line and that product line alone

Aha, my biggest fears thus confirmed. The morans did this simply to make more money!
Every "creatures" adon book contains basically the same creatures, basic nids, basic cultists, basic chaos etc with the odd quique thing thrown in just to attract crossover buyers but the issue remains, the same nid gaunt detailed in deathwatch creature book is statlines for deathwatch weapons and the same nid gaunt described in the rouge trader book and dark heresy creature books etc are detailed for the respective books weapons stats.
Simply to get more money.

Becuase any sane 5 year old will realize that the good thing to do would be to have all books governed by the same psycher rules, same wargear stat rules, same characteristics rules sicne you know, they are after all meant to be played in tandem in the same fething universe as all books describe the same time line, the same artefacts and the same events.

But no, now I have to buy 4 different (with even more addons) rulebooks and home rule construct bridges that gap all the different rule sets in order to create a pleasant gaming experience for all my players without anyone feeling cheated, nerfed or treated unfair vs the others.

Funny thing is that in the end I am the biggest idiot of all since i apparently continue to buy this crap.

Calling it 'slowed' is... silly.

You are right and I agree.
I should call it capitalistic instead.

I really don't know what you're talking about here, but like the Baron, I think I might skip over the comments of yours that are more personal opinion rants than actual questions.

Sorry if I was unclear.
The armour pen system is flawed and very unrealistic.
This:
You have a weapon with an armour penetrating value so why doesnt it do more damage vs unarmoured targets?

If I fire a bunker busting weapon at a person wearing protection it will negate all or parts of his protection right?
So why wont it do more damage if I fire it at a naked person?

My meltagun negates 12 points of protection so if you stand in your AP12 artificed power armour it counts as zero, follow me?
So why would it not do more damage when I fire it on someone wearing zero armour, why are those 12 extra armour pearcing completely wasted?

The whole damage system would get a buff in realism if armour negating damage actually carried over if the target had no armour.
But I guess that would be so unfair to the barbarian shooting his black powder pistol...*sigh*

There are areas of Ascension that don't work properly (the Assassin's ability to Dodge is one of them), but I've never encountered nor heard of anyone having serious problems due to weapon damage or the armour system.

I can give you email addresses to game masters leading two other groups besides mine that all feel this system is about as good as a pile of horse manure.
Dont get me wrong, it does work (barely) but what it ruins the most is the sense of fluff, it actually kills a lot of feeling in battles. Basically, the more you know about the universe of 40k the less you want to play this game after playing through a few battles using various weapons and penetrating values.

You can either cover your ears and completely ignore this or PM me and have a deeper discussion about this.

Dude, maybe take it to the proper forum a few below? That's a more fitting place to discus what's wrong with the game.

You really need to calm right down. Your hysterics over this, and the wild baseless assumptions that you are making are just making you look foolish.

Please show me the link to said errata.
What I have here before me are the following:
Deathwatch bolter - 2D10 + 5 damage AP AP 5
Black crusade chaos marine bolter - D10 + 9 damage AP 4
Unless you roll a "0" the chaos bolter is better.

*sigh*

Yes, the rulebook stats for DW weapons are better than the rulebook stats for Black Crusade. That much is obvious, so obvious in fact that it didn’t take all that long for FFG to change them. They did so in an optional appendix at the end of the most recent errata. They change the dynamics quite well, making the game less of a complete cake-walk for the Marines.

(again, what a "wow" difference in damage between a human chainsword and an astartes ditto, one whole damage point)

A lot of the power with melee weapons comes from any attendant special rules (power field being a good one, tearing and razor sharp being another two), and the strength of the actual user. A Strength 30 Guardsman gets +3 to that damage. A Strength 50 Marine in Power Armour gets +12 to that damage. Big difference.

So in reality the GK marine threw away his junk that we all know was oh so highly praised in the fluff texts but in reality was as effective as an accolyte pigstick, that is unless he runs around constantly high on hammerhand since he would then get some 4-or-so added damage which would STILL make it inferior and cause him to risk a lot of perils rolls (so what´s the point anyway).

What? The bile and spittle racing from your mouth is making it difficult to understand just what it is you’re talking about.

Thus please show me the errata that actually makes it worth for my players to pick up their characters of choice like the grey knight without getting screwed over every time there is a battle.

What are you fighting? What rules are you attempting to mix together? What game are you playing?

So the D10 + 3 long las damage averaging 8, is useful for exactly what?
It was actually my first choice in the game, an IG sniper but hen I realized I will simply be you n a b l e to kill even one lousy ork even if he is butt naked, stands perfectly still and lets me empty my whole long las magazine into his face hitting with every single shot I will N O T take down the ork.

Just look here. Look at the Accurate Weapon Quality (or look at the RT, DW or BC rulebook). Accurate allows weapons like the Longlas to cause significant damage to single targets. So they will be able to damage ant Ork.

This is how bad this game and its weapon damage design is! Who the hell wants that kind of gaming feeling?

Still haven’t the faintest clue what you’re blabbing on about.

Aha, my biggest fears thus confirmed. The morans did this simply to make more money!

Not even going to dignify that one...

Every "creatures" adon book contains basically the same creatures, basic nids, basic cultists, basic chaos etc with the odd quique thing thrown in just to attract crossover buyers but the issue remains, the same nid gaunt detailed in deathwatch creature book is statlines for deathwatch weapons and the same nid gaunt described in the rouge trader book and dark heresy creature books etc are detailed for the respective books weapons stats.

Except that’s a load of nonsense.

Dark Heresy – Has an esoteric collection of various enemy types, including two Tyranid creatures (Genestealers & Lictors) and basic Eldar and Ork entries.
Rogue Trader – Has Orks, Chaos renegades/reavers, Eldar and its own races (Stryxis, Y’Vath, etc.).
Deathwatch – Has Chaos Marines, Tau and Tyranids.
Black Crusade – Has Dark Eldar, Necrons, and Imperial adversaries (in the core book – no creature book for them yet).

They’re not ‘basically the same’ at all – the stats of the adversaries they present are done in the context of their setting.

Simply to get more money.

Again, not even going to dignify that...

Becuase any sane 5 year old will realize that the good thing to do would be to have all books governed by the same psycher rules, same wargear stat rules, same characteristics rules sicne you know, they are after all meant to be played in tandem in the same fething universe as all books describe the same time line, the same artefacts and the same events.

Christ you’re angry about this. You really need to calm down. It’s just a game.

1. RT/DW/BC do have the same psychic systems, using the Fettered/Unfettered/Push mechanic. Black Crusade adds powers based around Corruption, but that’s not so much a change as an addition. Only DH has a vastly different psychic system.
2. For the most part the wargear stats are the same, with any changes coming due to accumulated experience and testing over the years. In most games a Lasgun is a Lasgun is a Lasgun. The major difference lies in Astartes weapons, something that was later changed in the errata and mirrored in Black Crusade to better balance the Marine-level weapons against the non-Marine-level weapons.
3. The first three games have the same characteristic rules. Strength, Toughness, Unnaturals and so on all do the same thing. When BC came along they clearly made the decision to refine the mechanics, altering the way Unnaturals work to give them greater granularity, consolidating a number of the skills (Concealment/Silent Move now = Stealth), changing some combat rules so that certain things mirror one another (now Lightning Attack follows the same as Full-Auto), and expanding a few things to allow for greater detail (Weapon and Ballistic Skill bonuses).
4. The assumption is never made that each player has all the books. The reason why all four games are treated separately to one another is because you should never need any other book from any other line to play that singular game. If I’m playing Rogue Trader I should never require a book from the Dark Heresy line. I should not need the Deathwatch GM’s handbook to play a game of Black Crusade. Do owning these additional books help things? In a lot of cases they do. But they are never required.
5. Each game has a specific setting (DH – Calixis; RT – Koronus; DW – Jericho; BC – The Vortex). All the supplements and adventures and characters and rules are geared towards those settings. Adapting them for other settings isn’t hard (we don’t use the Calixis sector for our DH campaign), but each game caters to its own setting. These games are not meant to represent ‘generic sector anywhere’.

But no, now I have to buy 4 different (with even more addons) rulebooks and home rule construct bridges that gap all the different rule sets in order to create a pleasant gaming experience for all my players without anyone feeling cheated, nerfed or treated unfair vs the others.

You don’t have to buy anything. You can play any of the four games with just the core rulebook.

How are they feeling cheated?
How are they feeling nerfed?
Are you having BC Marine players fight aginst DW Marine players?
What is a ‘pleasant gaming experience’?
How are you being forced into buying these books? Do you need every rule from every book?

But I have to ask again – what sort of game are you attempting to play? It almost sounds as if you’re attempting to mix standard Dark Heresy with Grey Knights, Deathwatch and Black Crusade4.

If I fire a bunker busting weapon at a person wearing protection it will negate all or parts of his protection right?
So why wont it do more damage if I fire it at a naked person?

I don’t necessarily disagree with you here, but there are some cases of high armour piercing weapons being bad against unarmoured infantry (Teflon coated M16 rounds ripping right through people in Somalia, whereas if they weren’t coated in such a way their kill rates would have been higher because they didn’t need to the ability to penetrate armour). Furthermore in most cases these big weapons cause enough damage to kill someone in a single shot anyway, so extra damage would be redundant.

But as I said, I don’t necessarily disagree with you here. I think it probably could be better (probably something simple like excess pen = extra damage, so Pen 10 vs AP6 would equal = +4 damage). It’s nothing to get mad over though, and I’ve never had it impact the game that much that it causes a distraction. Things often die quick enough without having to worry about whether any additional Pen should cause extra damage

I can give you email addresses to game masters leading two other groups besides mine that all feel this system is about as good as a pile of horse manure.

I’d rather they go here, as long as they can keep the angry hyperbole to a minimum that is.

Dont get me wrong, it does work (barely) but what it ruins the most is the sense of fluff, it actually kills a lot of feeling in battles. Basically, the more you know about the universe of 40k the less you want to play this game after playing through a few battles using various weapons and penetrating values.

That’s never been my experience. And the game does more than barely work. Please stop over exaggerating things.

You can either cover your ears and completely ignore this or PM me and have a deeper discussion about this.

Not if you’re just going to yell and scream bile about “making money” and other nonsense.

I really don't have much of a problem moving items or even archetypes from game to game. I'd love an official conversion of all DH psy powers to the RT/DW/BC systems and vice versa but that's about it. I can eyeball the rest pretty easily as a GM.

Yeah me too. I'd really like a full update of the DH psychic system to it matches RT/DW/BC. That includes the Ascension stuff as well. I would like overbleed kept though, but that’s easy to do – for every X DoS on your Willpower Test you gain the overbleed effects, whatever that might be.

Plus you can also have difficulty levels build into the powers, so Ascended level powers could start off at Hard (-20) or Very Hard (-30) or even harder depending on what they are, and some of the minor powers could even have positive modifiers for the really simple ones.

Pyriel- wrote:
Really? That is grasping straws and you know it. In older times infantry harnesks were even fired upon by black powder weapons to see if they could resist a shot before being passed over as acceptable armours.

I feel that HBMC covered the rest, but I thought Id stop and hit this detail:

Kevlar is not an old timey metal armor. (Point of fact the old time ones could be penned too, it depended on the range and the weapon. A .69 dragoon pistol will go through the chest piece of anything but the heaviest full plate at point blank range)

Kevlar works by preventing the bullet from penetrating. This is not a severe issue with a bullet the mass and materials of the average 9mm. When you start dealing in shotgun slug sized rounds, such as many heavier flintlocks used, it crushes your internal organs just fine without penetrating you, particularly with such fun as double buck and ball charges. It's sort of the difference between being stabbed with a knife and hit with a ball bat.

Can we keep the super long nerd rage about some general rules out of the news&rumour thread, please?

Hand of Corruption... redux.

FFG wrote: A Downloadable Ritual
Hand of Corruption, a Black Crusade adventure, on sale via download





“The Dark Gods help those who help themselves."
–Lord Deon Algonnac, Reaver of the Unknowable Void

A windswept Imperial penal world silently orbits its dimming sun, perilously close to the dark influence of Chaos. To claim such a prize for the Ruinous Powers would bring great favour and glory to you and your fellow Heretics, and its substantial resources would help lay the foundation for your own Black Crusade. But welcoming this world into the roiling bosom of the Screaming Vortex will be no easy task, and the planet holds its own dangerous secrets. Can you bring the corrupting gifts of Chaos to this forgotten world?

Hand of Corruption, an adventure in three acts for Black Crusade, is now available on drivethrurpg.com and rpgnow.com! Presented in one comprehensive volume, Hand of Corruption is an epic story that takes you and your fellow Heretics from the swirling depths of the Screaming Vortex to the far reaches of the Calixis Sector, and then to a parched and windswept Imperial penal world called Saint Annard’s Penance. With a host of challenges designed to appeal to a range of group types and play styles, Hand of Corruption offers ample opportunities for both savvy roleplaying and gruelling combat.


Beyond Redemption

For more on Hand of Corruption, here’s a word from Black Crusade’s lead developer:

As the first book for the Black Crusade line, Hand of Corruption explores one of the fascinating premises first introduced in the Core Rulebook. For the first time in Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay, the players can control characters completely opposed to the Imperium, and Hand of Corruption brings that theme directly to the fore. The Heretics are pitted against the Imperium from the start, and have to infiltrate, deceive, and ultimately fight Imperial forces head on to get what they want. And what they want is nothing less than control of an entire planet full of psychopathic, dangerous, violent prisoners—perfect fodder for the players’ eventual Black Crusade!



Of course, to get there, the players have to go toe to toe with some of the Imperium’s best and brightest—the types of individuals they might have been playing as characters in another Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay line. Plus, this adventure throws plenty of pitfalls along the players’ route. I wouldn’t want to reveal any spoilers, but it’s an adventure Game Masters should have a lot of fun springing on their players, and players should have a lot of fun playing through.

Learn more about Hand of Corruption by reading our previews, Parched and Windswept and Ruinous Rituals . Then, head to drivethrurpg.com or rpgnow.com and download your copy today!

I'm still waiting for my copy of this damned book. C'mon Maelstrom! Get'cha act together!

New Rogue Trader & Deathwatch books announced!

First up, why don't we reave some rolls... I mean souls:

FFG wrote:The Soul Reaver

Announcing an upcoming adventure supplement for Rogue Trader



“They are a scourge upon our galaxy, the most vile and sadistic of all our xenos foes, and a peril to any who would ply the void in search of profit or gain. Whatever happens, should the shadow of their ships darken your path, pray you die fighting at the helm of your vessel, lest ‘fortune’ favours you and they take you alive…"
–Magos Domos Agnelain, Explorator

The Dark Eldar are a plague upon the Koronus Expanse; raiders, slavers, pirates, and even Rogue Traders suffer at their barbed lashes and blades. Any who cross the Maw and sail the void of the Koronus Expanse learn to fear the wicked silhouettes of their ships and their seemingly endless cruelty towards all life, including their own. Only vigilance and firepower keep the worst depredations of these terrible raiders at bay, though from the dens of Footfall to the commerce halls of Port Wander there are countless tales of crew lost and ships savaged in their sudden attacks...

Fantasy Flight Games is pleased to announce the upcoming release of The Soul Reaver, an adventure in three parts for Rogue Trader! This epic campaign is a chance for daring Explorers to look deep into the twisted heart of Dark Eldar society in the Koronus Expanse, and pull the greatest heist of their careers.

Betrayal and Lies



For more on The Soul Reaver, here’s a word from developer Max Brooke:

Rogue Trader is all about risk and profit. Namely, taking huge risks in the name of reaping massive profits. And what bigger gamble could there be than plucking an ancient and powerful warship from the very heart of a Dark Eldar city within the webway?

The Soul Reaver starts with a heist, but things are rarely as they seem when you're dealing with the treacherous Dark Eldar. The Explorers have to bet everything more than once to survive the machinations of several competing factions within the city and come away from this web of lies and betrayal with their promised reward. Of course, the Explorers have a chance to do some betraying of their own, and to this end, The Soul Reaver contains the Dark Eldar Kabalite Warrior Career Path. This full new Career, designed for use in this adventure and beyond, allows players to take the sadistic power of the Dark Eldar into their own hands for the first time in Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay.

I'm very excited about the new resources that The Soul Reaver contains for creating dangerous and memorable characters, and GMs and players alike should enjoy using these rules in their adventure through the twisted depths and perilous heights of Dark Eldar society!

Check back often over the coming months as we preview The Soul Reaver, and look for it on store shelves late in the second quarter.

Yes, you read that right - this book has the full rules for playing as a Dark Eldar warrior. And they're very tasty if I do say so myself.



And up next, the logical next step after First Founding.

FFG wrote:Honour The Chapter
Announcing the upcoming release of a new supplement for Deathwatch



“Today we face those who betrayed our predecessors. Today we bring death to those who turned from the light of the Emperor and broke faith with their brothers. Today we bring honour to those who came before us as we lay low these traitors! For Vilamus! For Guilliman! For the Emperor!"
–Brother-Captain Haeron of the Marines Errant

The brethren of the Deathwatch are the champions of humanity, the elite of the elite, and the very best the thousand and more Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes can produce. But while many Battle-Brothers are drawn from the most well known Chapters—the Blood Angels, the Space Wolves, the Ultramarines, and others of the First Founding—still more hail from lesser known bodies, the Successors of the great Legions. Some of these Chapters are every bit as famous as their celebrated progenitors, while others are all but unheralded. Nevertheless, all are heroes.

Fantasy Flight Games is pleased to announce the upcoming release of Honour the Chapter, a supplement for Deathwatch! Honour the Chapter provides a wealth of options for players interested in characters drawn from Chapters created during the Second or subsequent Foundings. This comprehensive tome contains new character creation rules, a wealth of relics unique to each Chapter, and plenty of guidance and adventure seeds for Game Masters.


From throughout the Imperium



For more on Honour the Chapter, here’s a word from its lead developer, Tim Flanders:

As the second book I’ve developed for the Deathwatch line, Honour the Chapter was an exciting project for me. Since the Core Rulebook, we've had a good chance to cover our core of Space Marine Chapters, and with First Founding we were able to bring the remaining progenitor Chapters to the fore. But now, for the first time since the inception of Deathwatch, we will be giving a huge number of the other myriad Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes the attention they deserve. I think players are going to really enjoy the chance to play Battle-Brothers from Chapters throughout the Imperium, each with as much depth as the Chapters we've covered in our past products.

Of course, with all this variety comes a price. Trying to form a Kill-team out of Battle-Brothers from such disparate backgrounds, all with their own histories, combat doctrines, and philosophies is tough work. Thankfully, we've covered that, too! GMs will find Honour the Chapter indispensable for making the most of their campaigns, by highlighting the strengths of their players, their characters, and the relationships between the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes. In this way, they’ll really make their players feel like the epic heroes of the Imperium that they are!

For ten millennia, Space Marines from a thousand chapters have fought and died in the name of the Emperor of Man. Keep checking back as we preview Honour the Chapter in the coming weeks, and late in the second quarter, take your place among the legends of the Adeptus Astartes!

The existance of this book probably won't surprise a lot of people. It is, as I said above, the logical 'next step' after First Founding. The preview they've given is very light on detail, except the note about a 'wealth' of new relics. 'Wealth' is probably an understatement.

For a moment there I thought it was Max Brooks..

Is there something you're not telling us Brook?

Nah, I just thought it was written by Max Brooks, the guy who does all that zombie gak, the son of actually funny actor Mel Brooks.