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 ZergSmasher wrote:
Art of War actually mentioned the Thunderer in one of their recent videos and said it might actually be a decent unit now if what you want is a cheap tank with a good gun.

I don't see it TBH. You save so few points over a LRBT, the drop in value just isn't worth it.

The FW keyword update has made me look again at indirect fire. Medusa and Earthshaker batteries getting Platoon means they can be ordered to Take Aim, effectively cancelling the indirect fire penalties.

 PaddyMick wrote:
The FW keyword update has made me look again at indirect fire. Medusa and Earthshaker batteries getting Platoon means they can be ordered to Take Aim, effectively cancelling the indirect fire penalties.

Did the quad-launcher and Heavy mortar get that key word as well?

 warhead01 wrote:

 PaddyMick wrote:
The FW keyword update has made me look again at indirect fire. Medusa and Earthshaker batteries getting Platoon means they can be ordered to Take Aim, effectively cancelling the indirect fire penalties.

Did the quad-launcher and Heavy mortar get that key word as well?

Yep

Combat Engineer Squad, Death
Rider Squadron, Heavy Mortar Battery, Earthshaker Carriage
Battery, Heavy Quad Launcher Battery, Medusa Carriage
Battery, Rapier Laser Destroyer Battery, Keywords
Add ‘Platoon, Regimental’

 PaddyMick wrote:
The FW keyword update has made me look again at indirect fire. Medusa and Earthshaker batteries getting Platoon means they can be ordered to Take Aim, effectively cancelling the indirect fire penalties.

Yeah, the earthshaker becomes an interesting option. Basilisks can move and are more durable, earthshakers get better buff support and can still be taken in units of 1-3. Medusas and heavy mortars are trash though, and quad guns are somewhere in the middle but probably not good enough to replace mortar HWS spam.

 PaddyMick wrote:
The FW keyword update has made me look again at indirect fire. Medusa and Earthshaker batteries getting Platoon means they can be ordered to Take Aim, effectively cancelling the indirect fire penalties.

The target still gets +1 to their armour saving throws.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Yeah, the earthshaker becomes an interesting option. Basilisks can move and are more durable, earthshakers get better buff support and can still be taken in units of 1-3. Medusas and heavy mortars are trash though, and quad guns are somewhere in the middle but probably not good enough to replace mortar HWS spam.

Fair enough. I was about to make an argument for the Medusas until I spotted the range.

Does anyone know what is the base size for rough riders?

 p5freak wrote:

 PaddyMick wrote:
The FW keyword update has made me look again at indirect fire. Medusa and Earthshaker batteries getting Platoon means they can be ordered to Take Aim, effectively cancelling the indirect fire penalties.

The target still gets +1 to their armour saving throws.

And Take Aim gives -1 AP, effectively cancelling both halves of the penalty as PaddyMick said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PaddyMick wrote:

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Yeah, the earthshaker becomes an interesting option. Basilisks can move and are more durable, earthshakers get better buff support and can still be taken in units of 1-3. Medusas and heavy mortars are trash though, and quad guns are somewhere in the middle but probably not good enough to replace mortar HWS spam.

Fair enough. I was about to make an argument for the Medusas until I spotted the range.

It's not the range that kills the Medusa, it's the D6 shots. The Basilisk has D6+3 shots (average 6.5) at D2, the Medusa has D6 shots (average 3.5) at DD6 (average 3.5). Twice the damage per shot, half the number of shots. Occasionally there's a target where the Medusa has a small advantage because of damage reduction but you're almost always better off with having double the volume of fire. If the Medusa had been adjusted to be D6+3 shots like the other blast weapons there would be an interesting decision between full-table range and maximum damage but as it is the Medusa is just a bad unit.

 PaddyMick wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:

 PaddyMick wrote:
The FW keyword update has made me look again at indirect fire. Medusa and Earthshaker batteries getting Platoon means they can be ordered to Take Aim, effectively cancelling the indirect fire penalties.

Did the quad-launcher and Heavy mortar get that key word as well?

Yep

Combat Engineer Squad, Death
Rider Squadron, Heavy Mortar Battery, Earthshaker Carriage
Battery, Heavy Quad Launcher Battery, Medusa Carriage
Battery, Rapier Laser Destroyer Battery, Keywords
Add ‘Platoon, Regimental’

Thank you for the reply, most helpful!



I'm just starting to pick over what 9th has done to my IG army. Just plan to make do with what I already own. Still crying over the removal of conscripts.

I made I diorama last year for the ESCB with the base size cut to the size of a basilisk, but with this keyword and rules update I'm excited to use it as itself in a game. I originally thought the Krieg were too expensive, but watching mordian glories batreps makes me excited to run my Krieger's as actual Krieg (don't get to play that often, hoping for a game in Feb). I would like to run a infantry heavy list with some artillery support, I'm glad there's now half decent options with FOB and ESCB able to bounce orders to eachother. (Just finished FOB proxies the other day)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait, now I've been thinking. Is the ESCB the best indirect fire unit we have now? It's 10 points cheaper than the Bombast FOB, +3 strength, an extra AP, can be taken in squads of 3, and "infinite range", vs avg of 0.5 more shots

I've got a GT next month and put this list together. What are some thoughts? My meta is dominated by either deathstar units, or small fast assault units.


++ Arks of Omen Detachment (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [113 PL, 1CP, 1,995pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Arks of Omen Compulsory Type: Heavy Support

Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

Game Type: 5. Chapter Approved: Arks of Omen

Regimental Doctrine: Armoured Superiority, Swift as the Wind

+ HQ +

Platoon Command Squad [6 PL, -2CP, 115pts]: Relic: Finial of the Nemrodesh 1st, Stratagem: Imperial Commander's Armoury, Stratagem: Warlord Trait, WT: Old Grudges
. Astropath
. Platoon Commander: Boltgun, Power sword, Warlord
. Veteran Heavy Weapons Team: Lascannon
. Veteran w/ Master-Vox: Lasgun
. Veteran w/ Regimental Standard: Lasgun

Tank Commander [11 PL, -2CP, 200pts]: Armoured Tracks, Lascannon, Leman Russ Battle Cannon, Meticulous Calibrator, Relic: Gatekeeper, Stratagem: Officer Cadre, Stratagem: Relic, WT: Master Tactician
. 2 Heavy Bolters: 2x Heavy bolter

Tank Commander [11 PL, -1CP, 200pts]: Armoured Tracks, Lascannon, Relic: Laurels of Command, Stratagem: Relic, Vanquisher Battle Cannon
. 2 Heavy Bolters: 2x Heavy bolter
. Veteran Commandeer: Elite Sharpshooters

+ Troops +

Cadian Shock Troops [3 PL, 65pts]
. 6x Shock Trooper: 6x Lasgun
. Shock Trooper Sergeant: Drum-fed Autogun
. Shock Trooper w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Shock Trooper w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Shock Trooper w/ Vox-caster

Cadian Shock Troops [3 PL, 65pts]
. 6x Shock Trooper: 6x Lasgun
. Shock Trooper Sergeant: Drum-fed Autogun
. Shock Trooper w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Shock Trooper w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Shock Trooper w/ Vox-caster

+ Elites +

Kasrkin [5 PL, 100pts]: Veteran Guerrillas
. Kasrkin Sargeant: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol
. 2x Kasrkin w/ Hot-shot Lasgun: 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Kasrkin w/ Hot-shot Laspistol and Melta Mine
. Kasrkin w/ Hot-shot Marksman Rifle
. Kasrkin w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Kasrkin w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Kasrkin w/ Special Weapon: Hot-shot Volley Gun
. Kasrkin w/ Special Weapon: Hot-shot Volley Gun
. Kasrkin w/ Vox-caster

Kasrkin [5 PL, 100pts]: Recon Operators
. Kasrkin Sargeant: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol
. 2x Kasrkin w/ Hot-shot Lasgun: 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Kasrkin w/ Hot-shot Laspistol and Melta Mine
. Kasrkin w/ Hot-shot Marksman Rifle
. Kasrkin w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Kasrkin w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Kasrkin w/ Special Weapon: Hot-shot Volley Gun
. Kasrkin w/ Special Weapon: Hot-shot Volley Gun
. Kasrkin w/ Vox-caster

+ Fast Attack +

Attilan Rough Riders [10 PL, 140pts]: Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance
. Rough Rider Sergeant: Goad Lance

Attilan Rough Riders [10 PL, 140pts]: Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance
. Rough Rider Sergeant: Goad Lance

Scout Sentinels [6 PL, 90pts]
. Scout Sentinel: Militarum Plasma Cannon, Sentinel Chainsaw
. Scout Sentinel: Militarum Plasma Cannon, Sentinel Chainsaw

+ Heavy Support +

Heavy Quad Launcher Battery [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Quad Launcher Battery

Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 55pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon

Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 55pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [18 PL, 340pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Armoured Tracks, Executioner Plasma Cannon, Lascannon
. . 2 Heavy Bolters: 2x Heavy bolter
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Armoured Tracks, Executioner Plasma Cannon, Lascannon
. . 2 Heavy Bolters: 2x Heavy bolter

Thunderers [14 PL, 240pts]: Thunderer, Thunderer

++ Total: [113 PL, 1CP, 1,995pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

 Fishborne wrote:
I've got a GT next month and put this list together. What are some thoughts? My meta is dominated by either deathstar units, or small fast assault units.

Put Master Tactician on the vanquisher TC so you can have Lead by Example on your Gatekeeper TC, you want the best gun in the codex to have priority for buffs.

Double plasma gun shock troops is a typo. I get playing by strict RAW in a tournament context but if the first FAQ is released before your tournament expect this to be gone. Melta and plasma is the long-term answer.

Don't forget to give the key relic to one of your Kasrkin squads, even without Born Soldiers the mortal wound bomb is still strong.

Lascannon HWTs are bad. They're glass cannons that will never live long enough to justify their point cost. Either give the mortars or drop them.

The Thunderer is a bad unit overall since it doesn't have the 2+ save or secondary weapons of a real LRBT. I see you're very tight on points but if you can free up a few this should be a LRBT. Upgrading it to an executioner would be a good change if you don't have mortar HWS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Robcio wrote:
Wait, now I've been thinking. Is the ESCB the best indirect fire unit we have now? It's 10 points cheaper than the Bombast FOB, +3 strength, an extra AP, can be taken in squads of 3, and "infinite range", vs avg of 0.5 more shots

Best? I'm not sure if it beats mortars for that title. It's an immobile unit that isn't infantry (so no scoring RND or BotG), isn't core (no relic flag or re-rolls), and has a huge footprint (so hiding more than one is difficult). Even a Basilisk is more durable, has the option to get line of sight to remove the indirect fire penalty, and can get maximum shots against 6+ model targets. It's definitely less of a pointless joke unit than it used to be though, so don't feel bad about taking them.

Aecus Decimus wrote:


It's not the range that kills the Medusa, it's the D6 shots. The Basilisk has D6+3 shots (average 6.5) at D2, the Medusa has D6 shots (average 3.5) at DD6 (average 3.5). Twice the damage per shot, half the number of shots. Occasionally there's a target where the Medusa has a small advantage because of damage reduction but you're almost always better off with having double the volume of fire. If the Medusa had been adjusted to be D6+3 shots like the other blast weapons there would be an interesting decision between full-table range and maximum damage but as it is the Medusa is just a bad unit.

It's pretty niche and I have no idea if there are units where this is relevant at all, but due to Blast, the Medusa gets a bit better against larger groups of targets with >2 wounds.
If there are 5+ targets the average shots go to 4 (Medusa) vs. 7 (Basilisk) and against 10+ to 6 (Medusa) vs. 9 (Basilisk). If those targets have 3 wounds (looking at Custodian Guard for example), the medusa should outperform the Basilisks. (Basi needs two hits to kill a 3 wound target, Medusa needs on average 1.139 hits to kill a 3 wound target)

 Pyroalchi wrote:
It's pretty niche and I have no idea if there are units where this is relevant at all, but due to Blast, the Medusa gets a bit better against larger groups of targets with >2 wounds.
If there are 5+ targets the average shots go to 4 (Medusa) vs. 7 (Basilisk) and against 10+ to 6 (Medusa) vs. 9 (Basilisk). If those targets have 3 wounds (looking at Custodian Guard for example), the medusa should outperform the Basilisks. (Basi needs two hits to kill a 3 wound target, Medusa needs on average 1.139 hits to kill a 3 wound target)

Yeah, that's an excellent demonstration of the problem. If we assume both weapons auto-hit and auto-wound with no saves (since they have the same target rolls) against a 5-10 model target the Basilisk's 7 shots turn into 3.5 dead models while the Medusa kills 3.511. Technically the Medusa wins but only by 0.3%. Against 11+ model targets (if such a thing even exists) the Medusa does a bit better, killing 5.26 models vs. the Basilisk's 4.5 for a 17% improvement but that's fairly small advantage in an extreme edge case situation. If you bump the target up to W4 the Medusa falls behind while the Basilisk still needs the same two wounds to kill.

In short: yes, you can come up with very specific targets where the Medusa has a small advantage but they're nowhere near common enough to make up for how badly it falls short against everything else.

On that topic: am I hallucinating that or did the Medusa once had a rule to do better damage against fortifications?

 Pyroalchi wrote:
On that topic: am I hallucinating that or did the Medusa once had a rule to do better damage against fortifications?

it did some time ago, hence the "medusa siege gun" as the original name.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
On that topic: am I hallucinating that or did the Medusa once had a rule to do better damage against fortifications?

Yep. You used to have a bastion breacher shells upgrade which replaced the 5" blast with a 3" blast but improved its armor penetration from 2d6 pick the highest to straight 2d6.

Alright, I've changed my list some and I will add some insights into why I chose things and tactics I've found for them.


Regimental Doctrine: Armoured Superiority, Swift as the Wind

+ No Force Org Slot +

Commissar [3 PL, -1CP, 40pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Relic: Laurels of Command, Stratagem: Imperial Commander's Armoury

+ HQ +

Cadian Castellan [3 PL, -1CP, 50pts]: Bolt pistol, Power sword, Stratagem: Warlord Trait, Warlord, WT: Old Grudges

Platoon Command Squad [4 PL, -1CP, 75pts]: Relic: Finial of the Nemrodesh 1st, Stratagem: Imperial Commander's Armoury
. Platoon Commander: Boltgun, Power sword
. Veteran Heavy Weapons Team: Lascannon
. Veteran w/ Master-Vox: Lasgun
. Veteran w/ Regimental Standard: Lasgun

Tank Commander [11 PL, -2CP, 200pts]: Armoured Tracks, Lascannon, Leman Russ Battle Cannon, Meticulous Calibrator, Relic: Gatekeeper, Stratagem: Imperial Commander's Armoury, Stratagem: Officer Cadre, WT: Master Tactician
. 2 Heavy Bolters: 2x Heavy bolter

Tank Commander [11 PL, 200pts]: Armoured Tracks, Lascannon, Vanquisher Battle Cannon
. 2 Heavy Bolters: 2x Heavy bolter
. Veteran Commandeer: Elite Sharpshooters

+ Troops +

Cadian Shock Troops [3 PL, 65pts]
. 6x Shock Trooper: 6x Lasgun
. Shock Trooper Sergeant: Drum-fed Autogun
. Shock Trooper w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Shock Trooper w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Shock Trooper w/ Vox-caster

Cadian Shock Troops [3 PL, 65pts]
. 6x Shock Trooper: 6x Lasgun
. Shock Trooper Sergeant: Drum-fed Autogun
. Shock Trooper w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Shock Trooper w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Shock Trooper w/ Vox-caster

+ Elites +

Kasrkin [5 PL, -1CP, 100pts]: Veteran Guerrillas
. Kasrkin Sargeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Relic: The Barbicant's Key, Stratagem: Battlefield Bequest
. 4x Kasrkin w/ Hot-shot Lasgun: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Kasrkin w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun x2
. Kasrkin w/ Special Weapon: Hot-shot Volley Gun x2
. Kasrkin w/ Vox-caster

Kasrkin [5 PL, 100pts]: Recon Operators
. Kasrkin Sargeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. 4x Kasrkin w/ Hot-shot Lasgun: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Kasrkin w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun x2
. Kasrkin w/ Special Weapon: Hot-shot Volley Gun x2
. Kasrkin w/ Vox-caster

+ Fast Attack +

Armoured Sentinels [6 PL, 100pts]
. Armoured Sentinel: Militarum Plasma Cannon, Sentinel Chainsaw
. Armoured Sentinel: Militarum Plasma Cannon, Sentinel Chainsaw

Attilan Rough Riders [10 PL, 140pts]: Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance
. Rough Rider Sergeant: Goad Lance

Attilan Rough Riders [10 PL, 140pts]: Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance
. Rough Rider Sergeant: Goad Lance

Scout Sentinels [6 PL, 90pts]
. Scout Sentinel: Militarum Plasma Cannon, Sentinel Chainsaw
. Scout Sentinel: Militarum Plasma Cannon, Sentinel Chainsaw

+ Heavy Support +

Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 55pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar x3

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [18 PL, 340pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Armoured Tracks, Dozer Blade, Executioner Plasma Cannon, Lascannon
. . 2 Heavy Bolters: 2x Heavy bolter
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Armoured Tracks, Dozer Blade, Executioner Plasma Cannon, Lascannon
. . 2 Heavy Bolters: 2x Heavy bolter

Thunderers [14 PL, 240pts]: Thunderer, Thunderer

++ Total: [115 PL, 2,000pts] ++

The commissar with Laurels is for anti deepstrike, and flipping an objective on my opponents turn. Command is for secondaries (inflexible and boots), Vanquisher is because my meta loves is big baddies (Hence the old Grudges character)

Cadians are to come in from reserve for boots secondary.

Kasrkin hit hard.

Armoured Sentinels are to hang out with the Command Squad like big brothers. Scout Sentinels are to push back deep strike the first turn, then harass flanks/alleyways. Rough Rider units are super fast with the swift as the Wind Bonus so they can get around what screens I couldn't punch through with shooting.

Mortars are for secondaries and small backfield units, maybe pinning order here and there.

The Thunderers are used like a hellhound. 3+ save, slower move but can take orders and are a cheap turret demolisher Cannon.

I was going to comment earlier but was thinking this would be better off in the list section.

Anyway that's an interesting view on the Thunderers. Haven't tried them personally but I'd say they're closer to a vindicator. More broadly threatening than a bane wolf for example but the bane wolf with MM gets minimum 6 shots and the turret doesn't degrade. I'd be interested to hear your results. I think a lot depends on how high you roll for shots. I'd be hesitant to take more than 1 especially since I can't see what roll they really fill here.

This particular list I would consider recon instead of armoured superiority. I like to pair it with mechanized for a fairly fast army with a jump on board control but obviously MI is not for this current list. Recon will allow your cmd, cavalry and sents to play more aggressive and push forward your Bubble wrap when needed. On that note I would suggest a ogryn bodyguard to take the command squad to the next level for scoring and anchoring. Their contribution is much better this way particularly since you have few core units to benefit from the finial.
The HWS I personally liked the las synergy you had in the earlier version if you are anticipating some hard nuts like abbadon. Might be a little too cool over practical but I dig the idea in a vacuum at least.

The commissar you will regret. 6" range and a relic slot is pretty poor. This is better handled by positioning and possibly recon operators. If you lose this dude you can easiy squeeze another shock troops.

The russes are all too pricey for my tastes since they will die regardless. I'd drop all dozer blades consider dropping all armoured tracks and the calibrator upgrade. There's another shock troops.

Lastly I like the pack of armoured sentinels but I would consider making the unit 3 strong and reducing down to 1 scout. If you fit a ogryn bodyguard this is a great LoS screen and support for them and would allow you to take center field with confidence (and +6" move with recon for both).

Anyway just some friendly input. GL to ya.

dominuschao wrote:
This particular list I would consider recon instead of armoured superiority.

No, you definitely want armored superiority with this list. With ~75% of your points spend on vehicles you need them to be effective scoring units.

The russes are all too pricey for my tastes since they will die regardless. I'd drop all dozer blades consider dropping all armoured tracks and the calibrator upgrade. There's another shock troops.

Dozer blades are free so there's no reason not to have them. Armored tracks is a very strong upgrade for its cost. And ignoring cover with Gatekeeper is well worth the points. I wouldn't put it on a random LRBT but on the powerful relic? Hell yes.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Dozer blades are free so there's no reason not to have them. Armored tracks is a very strong upgrade for its cost. And ignoring cover with Gatekeeper is well worth the points. I wouldn't put it on a random LRBT but on the powerful relic? Hell yes.

Dozer blades are free for normal russes, but cost 5 pts. for tank commanders.

 p5freak wrote:

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Dozer blades are free so there's no reason not to have them. Armored tracks is a very strong upgrade for its cost. And ignoring cover with Gatekeeper is well worth the points. I wouldn't put it on a random LRBT but on the powerful relic? Hell yes.

Dozer blades are free for normal russes, but cost 5 pts. for tank commanders.

Which is probably why the list in question only has them on the heavy support LRBTs, not the TCs.

Some interesting points. I didn't post in the list section because some synergies and tactics with the new profiles deserve to be talked about. Such as the Thunderer. It has benefits and drawbacks compared to a devil dog but is mostly similar. I like that it is tougher, damage is less swingy, and has turret.

Another interesting subject is when should you stop taking damage dealers and take the Squishy Secondary Squads (SSS which will be lovingly called that in my head). Dropping a scout Sentinel in my list above and trimming back on armored tracks gave me one SSS.

And finally what heavy Weapon Squads are equipped with. I was flip flopping on mortars and lascannons but came to the conclusion one Squad of mortars won't do anything unless I play against trash backfield units. My meta is overwhelmingly marines of all colors and flavors so I'm doing myself no favors by taking only one Squad of mortars. I think if I had 3 Squads of HW then it's a different story. Mortars are needed in large numbers. So I switched back to lascannons. They can move around with the Finial close by so 'the pop out from behind line of sight blocking terrain' traffic has merit.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
This particular list I would consider recon instead of armoured superiority.

No, you definitely want armored superiority with this list. With ~75% of your points spend on vehicles you need them to be effective scoring units.

The russes are all too pricey for my tastes since they will die regardless. I'd drop all dozer blades consider dropping all armoured tracks and the calibrator upgrade. There's another shock troops.

Dozer blades are free so there's no reason not to have them. Armored tracks is a very strong upgrade for its cost. And ignoring cover with Gatekeeper is well worth the points. I wouldn't put it on a random LRBT but on the powerful relic? Hell yes.

Hmm I glossed the free dozer blades good call. It seems the LR is the only chassis its free for so cool I'll take some too.
My point on those upgrades is often it doesn't matter. Armoured is great, at its best vs plasma and other similar weapons, if they keep firing at the same tank after hes popped the strat. But melta and rail guns for example don't care they'll still remove the model.

I do see the mech density, what I was suggesting was basically to reduce reliance on those tanks to be contesters. This by dropping some things like the commissar for more bodies and buffs elsewhere like on the command squad. That would make the cmd squad a midfield unit and its fantastic in that role. The bodies basically fill the role the commissar was meant for anyway.

My issue with AS (oustide of full skew russ lists) is too many ifs. No contester then it doesn't exist. If there is an enemy within range does your tank outnumber? If so is the enemy obsec? If so is the TC in 12" to spend an obsec order. Too much. And then feeling the need to put long ranged weapons into close proximity of an enemy unit.

Consider what that does vs say.. blood angels. As opposed to a pre game move to stagger bubble wrap and set up double cavalry, armoured sentinels and a combat command squad. This basically stacks with master tactician to give supreme control over deployment.
Anyway that was my thought process and its just an idea. I'd be interested to hear how much AS factored in.


On when to take more damage dealers vs SSS.. Idk. In this game its obviously tilted pretty heavily towards the DD. But cheap expendable squads are still useful for screening out areas and scoring. While having a unit like the ogryn bodyguard is pure gold in this army.

dominuschao wrote:
Armoured is great, at its best vs plasma and other similar weapons, if they keep firing at the same tank after hes popped the strat. But melta and rail guns for example don't care they'll still remove the model.

Sure, but there's a finite amount of melta and rail guns in the opposing list and they're going to have to put other weapons into those tanks. And remember, this is a token 5 point upgrade we're talking about. Modest value is absolutely enough to justify taking it, this isn't a 50-100 point upgrade where it has to make the unit virtually invulnerable to be worth having it.

I do see the mech density, what I was suggesting was basically to reduce reliance on those tanks to be contesters. This by dropping some things like the commissar for more bodies and buffs elsewhere like on the command squad. That would make the cmd squad a midfield unit and its fantastic in that role. The bodies basically fill the role the commissar was meant for anyway.

Dropping a commissar for another squad is not changing the fundamental nature of the list: a heavy commitment to tanks where the tanks need to be able to score objectives. Even with the additional squad that's stil 75% of the points spent on tanks.

My issue with AS (oustide of full skew russ lists) is too many ifs. No contester then it doesn't exist. If there is an enemy within range does your tank outnumber? If so is the enemy obsec? If so is the TC in 12" to spend an obsec order. Too much. And then feeling the need to put long ranged weapons into close proximity of an enemy unit.

As if recon isn't? You need to want to move your units that additional distance, you need to have enough of them to add sufficient value, etc. Every doctrine except Born Soldiers is situational but having all of your vehicles be better at scoring objectives is one of the most commonly relevant options.

Well agree to disagree then and let's see his results.

Just stumbled over the announced Arks of omen detachment (https://www.wargamer.com/warhammer-40k/arks-of-omen-detachment#:~:text=The%20Arks%20of%20Omen%20detachment%20is%20much%2C%20much,unless%20they%E2%80%99re%20fielding%20Imperial%20Knights%20or%20Chaos%20Knights.)and just wanted to make sure I understand this right:
So I can practically build what is almost the same as a brigade but include Superheavies and fortifications in the same detachment? And therefore the superheavies even if it's only one would get regiment traits without further hassle?

Yes

Which guard units count as "Key characters" for Arks detachments?