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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Maxzero wrote:
Interesting that Crusaders will now be 20 points for 3 wounds and 2 attacks with S4 powerswords and 3++.


Wouldn't that be 3+/4++ with the new storm-shields rule?
   
Made in de
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






3 wounds? wow.

Also with Heavy Bolters going to 2 damage the Malcador Defender (which also seems to have gotten Grinding Advance for its Demolisher cannon) is suddenly some really impressive piece of Anti Marine hate... 325 points for 21 x 5/-1/2 and 2D6 10/-3/D6... That's... definitly impressive. And it's still to be seen what they make out of its "hits on 5+ in overwatch" ability.

Honestly I would have prefered it if they had givven it some other gimmick to make it more useful compared to its weight in Leman Russ instead of just outright doubling its firepower. But then again: if a lot of stuff goes up in wounds the increase in deadliness might be less bad than one would expect currently.

But on that note: if Heavy Bolters are d2 now I'm quite expecting the Stormlord and Macharius Vulcan going to d3...

~5000 build and painted 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

12" flamers is a pretty huge change. So many times I have tried to get flamers to work, only to come up against things like 9" reserve rules and the like.

SWSs with flamers, in reserve, could actually be useful now. Maybe not good, but at least not dismissed out of hand any more.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer






I'm actually kind of liking heavy bolters now if they go up to 2 damage across the board. That's a solid weapon for an infantry squad, or plink with chimeras and support vehicles. Leman Russe's with 3 of them could actually chip a few wounds too. It's not jaw dropping but for the first time in 40k I'm not looking at a heavy bolter and wondering why you'd even consider it.

Heavy flamers potentially going out to 12" should've been there from the start. That's a big buff for our tanks, provided you can see the target to overwatch it.

The others I'm not sure on yet. Powerswords look neat on Catachans now that they're wounding marines and orks on 3's. Paying 5 pts for 4 powersword attacks on a sarge ain't too shabby, does more good than the points in an extra guardsman would in melee.

Curious to see how it shakes out

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in de
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






Regarding d2 heavy bolters: so you think autocannons will say as they are? One less shot for +12" and +2S seem of limited use...

~5000 build and painted 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

After the weapon changes a Stormlord full of Special Weapon squads and Commabd Squads rolling up the middle and firing 20x 12” Flamers and Heavy Flamers out will be grim to face. I know at least one player in our group who’ll try this against an unsuspecting opponent with limited AT in their list!

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





Gainesville, VA

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Regarding d2 heavy bolters: so you think autocannons will say as they are? One less shot for +12" and +2S seem of limited use...


Honestly, probably will stay the same. The price in points is even, not sure how they compare now statistically against different targets, but it seems the choice is HB against light/heavy infantry - or AC against light-medium vehicles.

We've almost got to the point where all special weapons cost the same, and all heavy weapons cost the same (only ML and LC that are different currently) that you could almost put in one standard cost for an Infantry Squad and call it something like "Power Level". Oh, wait...

Though with the Heavy Flamer range change, and the shootin into combat change, definitely rethinking those heavy bolters on my Chimeras, as they are likely to be close up and or in combat more than the Leman Russ's.
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User





The rumour is the Autocannon with gain an extra point of AP.

But that is just a rumour.
   
Made in cz
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





Prague

Does it make sence to build list about Leman Russ spam? Something like this? 3x3 LR. One team with TC and battlecannons holding backfield and 2 teams with their TC and punishers and demolishers rubling forward? Regiment and detachements are still an open topic, this is the version I call Death Russ of Krieg

Spoiler:
:

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [105 PL, 1,800pts, 12CP] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment CP

Regimental Doctrine: Astra Millitarum, Gunnery Experts, Spotter Details

+ HQ +

Tank Commander [12 PL, 240pts]: Augur array, Battle Cannon, Lascannon, Plasma Cannons, Steel Commander, Warlord, WT: Master of Command

Tank Commander [12 PL, 210pts]: Display Tank Orders, Heavy Flamer, Steel Commander, Track guards, Turret-mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon

Tank Commander [12 PL, 200pts]: Augur array, Heavy Bolter, Steel Commander, Track guards, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon

+ Troops +

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 45pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 45pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 45pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

+ Heavy Support +

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [20 PL, 340pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Lascannon
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Lascannon

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [20 PL, 330pts]
. Leman Russ Demolisher: Heavy Flamer, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon
. Leman Russ Demolisher: Heavy Flamer, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [20 PL, 345pts]
. Leman Russ Demolisher: Heavy Flamer, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon
. Leman Russ Punisher: Heavy Bolter, Turret-mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon

++ Total: [105 PL, 12CP, 1,800pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

8000pt 
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User




 Tomsug wrote:
Does it make sence to build list about Leman Russ spam? Something like this? 3x3 LR. One team with TC and battlecannons holding backfield and 2 teams with their TC and punishers and demolishers rubling forward? Regiment and detachements are still an open topic, this is the version I call Death Russ of Krieg

Spoiler:
:

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [105 PL, 1,800pts, 12CP] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment CP

Regimental Doctrine: Astra Millitarum, Gunnery Experts, Spotter Details

+ HQ +

Tank Commander [12 PL, 240pts]: Augur array, Battle Cannon, Lascannon, Plasma Cannons, Steel Commander, Warlord, WT: Master of Command

Tank Commander [12 PL, 210pts]: Display Tank Orders, Heavy Flamer, Steel Commander, Track guards, Turret-mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon

Tank Commander [12 PL, 200pts]: Augur array, Heavy Bolter, Steel Commander, Track guards, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon

+ Troops +

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 45pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 45pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 45pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

+ Heavy Support +

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [20 PL, 340pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Lascannon
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Lascannon

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [20 PL, 330pts]
. Leman Russ Demolisher: Heavy Flamer, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon
. Leman Russ Demolisher: Heavy Flamer, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [20 PL, 345pts]
. Leman Russ Demolisher: Heavy Flamer, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon
. Leman Russ Punisher: Heavy Bolter, Turret-mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon

++ Total: [105 PL, 12CP, 1,800pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)


Honestly it's more viable then troops are at the moment (outside of DKOK). Sure you won't win ObjSec but at least you won't be spending hundreds of points on infantry that will just be Bolt Rifle fodder.

To stop things just charging in Crusaders, Bullgryn or Armoured Sentinels can block for you.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Remember that in a Spearhead all Russes (including TCs) get ObSec. It obviously wont let you go toe to toe on an objective with ObSec squads (simply because they're going to by definition outnumber your Russ hulls 95% of the imte), but for overriding things like marauding Wave Serpents or Impulsors or other fast movers just camping on objectives without ObSec support it can win games.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/15 14:21:52


 
   
Made in cz
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





Prague

Sterling191 wrote:
Remember that in a Spearhead all Russes (including TCs) get ObSec. It obviously wont let you go toe to toe on an objective with ObSec squads (simply because they're going to by definition outnumber your Russ hulls 95% of the imte), but for overriding things like marauding Wave Serpents or Impulsors or other fast movers just camping on objectives without ObSec support it can win games.


You hit precisely what bother me the most. The problem is more complicated:

Teams of 3 Russes = TC+2LR seems to be pretty efective. But it means 3x hq. Spearhead is just 2 hq max. So spearhead + one TC in patrol with scions? Could be, but cost you 3CP. But I can scratch 2 other scions team, spare 90p and beef up some russes. Because now, just the warlord has the sponsons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/15 14:38:20


8000pt 
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan



UK

Regular heavy support AM Russes are a lot of points, with a native 4+. I'm not sure they're worth it.

Obsec troops isn't bad - you score objectives on your turn, right?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/08/15 22:44:44


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ."
Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!

Heh.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Razerous wrote:

Obsec troops isn't bad - you score objectives on your turn, right?


At the top of your turn. You need to be on an objective, and survive for a round, before you can derive points from it (for most objectives, there are a few specific secondaries that score differently).
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





So we are clear, the new heavy bolter is D2, AND fires three times? Or its D2, and ONE shot? Cause I have heard both from different sources over the last few days, and that will affect my impression of "do I want this gun".

Crusaders. Three wounds each. 20 points.
Overpriced? Not even!

I just fear its a typo and they really meant 3 toughnesses.

Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
Made in de
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






One thing I'm curious to see: now that almost all marines go to two wounds I think (my opinion) there is quite some possibility that other "heavy infantry" might follow. It's really just a wild guess, but I could see (recosted) ork boys at 2 wounds etc.
So I assume (again: wild guess) with an increasing number of 2 wound models in most armies, the average "all comers list" will drift more to d2 weapons, wich on the other hand would often be wasted on our cheap guardsmen. That... could actually be an advantage. Just take heavy bolters (assuming they stay at heavy 3 when going to d2) which are now, at twice the cost, much more efficient against Primaris and their new 2W firstborn cousins, but haven't gained in efficiency against guardsmen.

Of course: it's much too soon to be sure if this is a thing, but I found it interesting thinking about it recently.

~5000 build and painted 
   
Made in de
On a Canoptek Spyder's Waiting List




Heyo

Has anyone a source for the new 3 Wound Crusaders?


I mean if it is true they could be quite efficent as addition to Bullgryns in a melee guard.
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User




Bluflash wrote:
Maxzero wrote:
Interesting that Crusaders will now be 20 points for 3 wounds and 2 attacks with S4 powerswords and 3++.


Wouldn't that be 3+/4++ with the new storm-shields rule?



With the new rules yes.

With Psychic Barrier Crusaders would be 2+/3++.

Honestly still think that is pretty decent for Objective holding especially if in cover.

At this point I don't see the point of regular Guardsmen in competitive AM lists anymore. They threaten almost nothing and just give other factions 'weak' troops a perfect target to generate points from.
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan



UK

Where does crusaders having 3 wounds come from - I appreciate its true, just unsure as my AM codex states the original 1W profile.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ."
Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!

Heh.  
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User




Razerous wrote:
Where does crusaders having 3 wounds come from - I appreciate its true, just unsure as my AM codex states the original 1W profile.


Battlescribe.

Basically they are the same Crusaders that Sisters now get. Just 20 PPM instead of 16.

Just how Priests are imported into the AM.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Maxzero wrote:

Battlescribe.


Battlescribe gets gak wrong all the time. If you're seeing a major statistical shift on a unit, and cant find it referenced anywhere else outside the app, it's highly unlikely to be real. Especially in the context of the mega-rush for the beginning of 9th.

Crusaders are 1W in the Sororitas codex by the by.
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User




Sterling191 wrote:
Maxzero wrote:

Battlescribe.


Battlescribe gets gak wrong all the time. If you're seeing a major statistical shift on a unit, and cant find it referenced anywhere else outside the app, it's highly unlikely to be real. Especially in the context of the mega-rush for the beginning of 9th.

Crusaders are 1W in the Sororitas codex by the by.


If they are 20 points for T3 1W garbage then I will simply replace them with Bullgryns.

The point is Guardsmen are basically a liability as the rules are so I am simply looking for alternatives.

Whether they be Crusaders, Bullgryns or Armoured Sentinels.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

Battlescribe shows W1 on Crusaders for me, so not sure what you're looking at.

Writing off Guardsmen entirely seems like an enormous overreaction. The one secondary objective geared towards killing infantry is a poor choice unless your opponent is fielding 150+ models, so Guardsmen certainly still have a place.

If you try to rely on Bullgryns, Crusaders, or Sentinels for screening, you're not going to have the board presence to both effectively screen for your heavy hitters and take objectives.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Beaverton OR

I'm personally hoping for some more Ogryn/Bullgryn love when we finally get the new codex.

IMO they don't need much. Maybe up their wounds by +1 (because that seems to be the order of the day) and give me a few new options for weapons and such.

I'd love it to have some actual heavy (ranged) firepower on both types of Ogryns!
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





leerm02 wrote:
I'm personally hoping for some more Ogryn/Bullgryn love when we finally get the new codex.

IMO they don't need much. Maybe up their wounds by +1 (because that seems to be the order of the day) and give me a few new options for weapons and such.

I'd love it to have some actual heavy (ranged) firepower on both types of Ogryns!


4 wound Bullgryns would be great!!!

What do you guys think are the best loadouts for command squads, seargants and it special weapons?
I’m thinking plasma. But anything else seem good?
   
Made in au
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Still really liking how Scions are faring. Their ability to slap out plasma (and melta nowdays) really feel like they'll be valuable in this 2wound filled edition. That and the fact they're build style is surrounded around MSU troop units.

Though the new detachment rules is a bit of a downer. But that's the nerf to soup I guess?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





My end of eighth army was all scions -- and I think maybe 3 regular gaurd in the very small artillery wing is all I might bring in to dilute that with a second detachment.
Points are tighter now though. I can't bring 4 psyker primes like I used to :(.

And yeah, I was suspicious about the no source 3 wound crusaders too, although that is just barely on par with a tac marine, at that point cost and effect level. Also note that crusaders armor is 4+/3++, NOT 3+/3++, so with the rule change does that make it 4+/4++ or am I missing something?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/08/18 02:25:12


Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User




 catbarf wrote:
Battlescribe shows W1 on Crusaders for me, so not sure what you're looking at.

Writing off Guardsmen entirely seems like an enormous overreaction. The one secondary objective geared towards killing infantry is a poor choice unless your opponent is fielding 150+ models, so Guardsmen certainly still have a place.

If you try to rely on Bullgryns, Crusaders, or Sentinels for screening, you're not going to have the board presence to both effectively screen for your heavy hitters and take objectives.


What screening?

Guardsmen won't do anything in protect a LR from AT fire. They threaten nothing with their own fire-power and just make a perfect target for Bolt Rifles.

The only non Grenadier use I could see is Wilderness Survivors completely bare bones who just flood objectives and die in droves. Probably Conscriprs since it saves on the squad combining costs.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/18 05:34:19


 
   
Made in de
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






I think (opinion) they still screen pretty nicely against stuff that want's to be in CC with our tanks or has to get up close (like meltas) by just standing in the way. They cannot be shifted that easy by morale any more and an infantry squad sitting in cover is a cover not used by the enemy.

And I still believe it's a value of its own that we have access to that cheap objective secured models. I'm not sure how feasible this is in practice but on a purely theorycrafting basis I could see potential in focussing fire on the enemy units with objective secured (giving how much awesome stuff is in other slots in some armies, I assume (!) they will be not that prevalent in some armies), giving them real trouble in scoring objectives, since a single guardsmen can "hold" it against a dozen Aggressors, Eradicators, Eliminators etc.

Sure they will die in droves but 500 Points are 100 guardsmen. You can build armies to kill that many in one or two rounds but then you have not build towards anti tank etc.

~5000 build and painted 
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut






Maxzero wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Battlescribe shows W1 on Crusaders for me, so not sure what you're looking at.

Writing off Guardsmen entirely seems like an enormous overreaction. The one secondary objective geared towards killing infantry is a poor choice unless your opponent is fielding 150+ models, so Guardsmen certainly still have a place.

If you try to rely on Bullgryns, Crusaders, or Sentinels for screening, you're not going to have the board presence to both effectively screen for your heavy hitters and take objectives.


What screening?

Guardsmen won't do anything in protect a LR from AT fire. They threaten nothing with their own fire-power and just make a perfect target for Bolt Rifles.

The only non Grenadier use I could see is Wilderness Survivors completely bare bones who just flood objectives and die in droves. Probably Conscriprs since it saves on the squad combining costs.




In the games I got in during 8th, my foot guard wasn't suffering that much and infantry squads can actually dish out quite some pain, especially when they each carry a plasma gun or the like. Plasma now costs next to nothing, so truly, there is no reason not to.

For my pure infantry, I'm still doubting between Wilderness Survivors/Disciplined Shooters and Catachan, as both have their nice sides. Although I now tend more towards the more shooting-oriented ones because of how points have gone up on everything.

   
 
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