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Also with Heavy Bolters going to 2 damage the Malcador Defender (which also seems to have gotten Grinding Advance for its Demolisher cannon) is suddenly some really impressive piece of Anti Marine hate... 325 points for 21 x 5/-1/2 and 2D6 10/-3/D6... That's... definitly impressive. And it's still to be seen what they make out of its "hits on 5+ in overwatch" ability.
Honestly I would have prefered it if they had givven it some other gimmick to make it more useful compared to its weight in Leman Russ instead of just outright doubling its firepower. But then again: if a lot of stuff goes up in wounds the increase in deadliness might be less bad than one would expect currently.
But on that note: if Heavy Bolters are d2 now I'm quite expecting the Stormlord and Macharius Vulcan going to d3...
~7510 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200
12" flamers is a pretty huge change. So many times I have tried to get flamers to work, only to come up against things like 9" reserve rules and the like.
SWSs with flamers, in reserve, could actually be useful now. Maybe not good, but at least not dismissed out of hand any more.
I'm actually kind of liking heavy bolters now if they go up to 2 damage across the board. That's a solid weapon for an infantry squad, or plink with chimeras and support vehicles. Leman Russe's with 3 of them could actually chip a few wounds too. It's not jaw dropping but for the first time in 40k I'm not looking at a heavy bolter and wondering why you'd even consider it.
Heavy flamers potentially going out to 12" should've been there from the start. That's a big buff for our tanks, provided you can see the target to overwatch it.
The others I'm not sure on yet. Powerswords look neat on Catachans now that they're wounding marines and orks on 3's. Paying 5 pts for 4 powersword attacks on a sarge ain't too shabby, does more good than the points in an extra guardsman would in melee.
Curious to see how it shakes out
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
After the weapon changes a Stormlord full of Special Weapon squads and Commabd Squads rolling up the middle and firing 20x 12” Flamers and Heavy Flamers out will be grim to face. I know at least one player in our group who’ll try this against an unsuspecting opponent with limited AT in their list!
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
Pyroalchi wrote: Regarding d2 heavy bolters: so you think autocannons will say as they are? One less shot for +12" and +2S seem of limited use...
Honestly, probably will stay the same. The price in points is even, not sure how they compare now statistically against different targets, but it seems the choice is HB against light/heavy infantry - or AC against light-medium vehicles.
We've almost got to the point where all special weapons cost the same, and all heavy weapons cost the same (only ML and LC that are different currently) that you could almost put in one standard cost for an Infantry Squad and call it something like "Power Level". Oh, wait...
Though with the Heavy Flamer range change, and the shootin into combat change, definitely rethinking those heavy bolters on my Chimeras, as they are likely to be close up and or in combat more than the Leman Russ's.
Does it make sence to build list about Leman Russ spam? Something like this? 3x3 LR. One team with TC and battlecannons holding backfield and 2 teams with their TC and punishers and demolishers rubling forward? Regiment and detachements are still an open topic, this is the version I call Death Russ of Krieg
Tomsug wrote: Does it make sence to build list about Leman Russ spam? Something like this? 3x3 LR. One team with TC and battlecannons holding backfield and 2 teams with their TC and punishers and demolishers rubling forward? Regiment and detachements are still an open topic, this is the version I call Death Russ of Krieg
Honestly it's more viable then troops are at the moment (outside of DKOK). Sure you won't win ObjSec but at least you won't be spending hundreds of points on infantry that will just be Bolt Rifle fodder.
To stop things just charging in Crusaders, Bullgryn or Armoured Sentinels can block for you.
Remember that in a Spearhead all Russes (including TCs) get ObSec. It obviously wont let you go toe to toe on an objective with ObSec squads (simply because they're going to by definition outnumber your Russ hulls 95% of the imte), but for overriding things like marauding Wave Serpents or Impulsors or other fast movers just camping on objectives without ObSec support it can win games.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/15 14:21:52
Sterling191 wrote: Remember that in a Spearhead all Russes (including TCs) get ObSec. It obviously wont let you go toe to toe on an objective with ObSec squads (simply because they're going to by definition outnumber your Russ hulls 95% of the imte), but for overriding things like marauding Wave Serpents or Impulsors or other fast movers just camping on objectives without ObSec support it can win games.
You hit precisely what bother me the most. The problem is more complicated:
Teams of 3 Russes = TC+2LR seems to be pretty efective. But it means 3x hq. Spearhead is just 2 hq max. So spearhead + one TC in patrol with scions? Could be, but cost you 3CP. But I can scratch 2 other scions team, spare 90p and beef up some russes. Because now, just the warlord has the sponsons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/15 14:38:20
Obsec troops isn't bad - you score objectives on your turn, right?
At the top of your turn. You need to be on an objective, and survive for a round, before you can derive points from it (for most objectives, there are a few specific secondaries that score differently).
So we are clear, the new heavy bolter is D2, AND fires three times? Or its D2, and ONE shot? Cause I have heard both from different sources over the last few days, and that will affect my impression of "do I want this gun".
Crusaders. Three wounds each. 20 points.
Overpriced? Not even!
I just fear its a typo and they really meant 3 toughnesses.
One thing I'm curious to see: now that almost all marines go to two wounds I think (my opinion) there is quite some possibility that other "heavy infantry" might follow. It's really just a wild guess, but I could see (recosted) ork boys at 2 wounds etc.
So I assume (again: wild guess) with an increasing number of 2 wound models in most armies, the average "all comers list" will drift more to d2 weapons, wich on the other hand would often be wasted on our cheap guardsmen. That... could actually be an advantage. Just take heavy bolters (assuming they stay at heavy 3 when going to d2) which are now, at twice the cost, much more efficient against Primaris and their new 2W firstborn cousins, but haven't gained in efficiency against guardsmen.
Of course: it's much too soon to be sure if this is a thing, but I found it interesting thinking about it recently.
~7510 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200
Maxzero wrote: Interesting that Crusaders will now be 20 points for 3 wounds and 2 attacks with S4 powerswords and 3++.
Wouldn't that be 3+/4++ with the new storm-shields rule?
With the new rules yes.
With Psychic Barrier Crusaders would be 2+/3++.
Honestly still think that is pretty decent for Objective holding especially if in cover.
At this point I don't see the point of regular Guardsmen in competitive AM lists anymore. They threaten almost nothing and just give other factions 'weak' troops a perfect target to generate points from.
Battlescribe gets gak wrong all the time. If you're seeing a major statistical shift on a unit, and cant find it referenced anywhere else outside the app, it's highly unlikely to be real. Especially in the context of the mega-rush for the beginning of 9th.
Crusaders are 1W in the Sororitas codex by the by.
Battlescribe gets gak wrong all the time. If you're seeing a major statistical shift on a unit, and cant find it referenced anywhere else outside the app, it's highly unlikely to be real. Especially in the context of the mega-rush for the beginning of 9th.
Crusaders are 1W in the Sororitas codex by the by.
If they are 20 points for T3 1W garbage then I will simply replace them with Bullgryns.
The point is Guardsmen are basically a liability as the rules are so I am simply looking for alternatives.
Whether they be Crusaders, Bullgryns or Armoured Sentinels.
Battlescribe shows W1 on Crusaders for me, so not sure what you're looking at.
Writing off Guardsmen entirely seems like an enormous overreaction. The one secondary objective geared towards killing infantry is a poor choice unless your opponent is fielding 150+ models, so Guardsmen certainly still have a place.
If you try to rely on Bullgryns, Crusaders, or Sentinels for screening, you're not going to have the board presence to both effectively screen for your heavy hitters and take objectives.
I'm personally hoping for some more Ogryn/Bullgryn love when we finally get the new codex.
IMO they don't need much. Maybe up their wounds by +1 (because that seems to be the order of the day) and give me a few new options for weapons and such.
I'd love it to have some actual heavy (ranged) firepower on both types of Ogryns!
leerm02 wrote: I'm personally hoping for some more Ogryn/Bullgryn love when we finally get the new codex.
IMO they don't need much. Maybe up their wounds by +1 (because that seems to be the order of the day) and give me a few new options for weapons and such.
I'd love it to have some actual heavy (ranged) firepower on both types of Ogryns!
4 wound Bullgryns would be great!!!
What do you guys think are the best loadouts for command squads, seargants and it special weapons?
I’m thinking plasma. But anything else seem good?
Still really liking how Scions are faring. Their ability to slap out plasma (and melta nowdays) really feel like they'll be valuable in this 2wound filled edition. That and the fact they're build style is surrounded around MSU troop units.
Though the new detachment rules is a bit of a downer. But that's the nerf to soup I guess?
My end of eighth army was all scions -- and I think maybe 3 regular gaurd in the very small artillery wing is all I might bring in to dilute that with a second detachment.
Points are tighter now though. I can't bring 4 psyker primes like I used to :(.
And yeah, I was suspicious about the no source 3 wound crusaders too, although that is just barely on par with a tac marine, at that point cost and effect level. Also note that crusaders armor is 4+/3++, NOT 3+/3++, so with the rule change does that make it 4+/4++ or am I missing something?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/08/18 02:25:12
catbarf wrote: Battlescribe shows W1 on Crusaders for me, so not sure what you're looking at.
Writing off Guardsmen entirely seems like an enormous overreaction. The one secondary objective geared towards killing infantry is a poor choice unless your opponent is fielding 150+ models, so Guardsmen certainly still have a place.
If you try to rely on Bullgryns, Crusaders, or Sentinels for screening, you're not going to have the board presence to both effectively screen for your heavy hitters and take objectives.
What screening?
Guardsmen won't do anything in protect a LR from AT fire. They threaten nothing with their own fire-power and just make a perfect target for Bolt Rifles.
The only non Grenadier use I could see is Wilderness Survivors completely bare bones who just flood objectives and die in droves. Probably Conscriprs since it saves on the squad combining costs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/18 05:34:19
I think (opinion) they still screen pretty nicely against stuff that want's to be in CC with our tanks or has to get up close (like meltas) by just standing in the way. They cannot be shifted that easy by morale any more and an infantry squad sitting in cover is a cover not used by the enemy.
And I still believe it's a value of its own that we have access to that cheap objective secured models. I'm not sure how feasible this is in practice but on a purely theorycrafting basis I could see potential in focussing fire on the enemy units with objective secured (giving how much awesome stuff is in other slots in some armies, I assume (!) they will be not that prevalent in some armies), giving them real trouble in scoring objectives, since a single guardsmen can "hold" it against a dozen Aggressors, Eradicators, Eliminators etc.
Sure they will die in droves but 500 Points are 100 guardsmen. You can build armies to kill that many in one or two rounds but then you have not build towards anti tank etc.
~7510 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200
catbarf wrote: Battlescribe shows W1 on Crusaders for me, so not sure what you're looking at.
Writing off Guardsmen entirely seems like an enormous overreaction. The one secondary objective geared towards killing infantry is a poor choice unless your opponent is fielding 150+ models, so Guardsmen certainly still have a place.
If you try to rely on Bullgryns, Crusaders, or Sentinels for screening, you're not going to have the board presence to both effectively screen for your heavy hitters and take objectives.
What screening?
Guardsmen won't do anything in protect a LR from AT fire. They threaten nothing with their own fire-power and just make a perfect target for Bolt Rifles.
The only non Grenadier use I could see is Wilderness Survivors completely bare bones who just flood objectives and die in droves. Probably Conscriprs since it saves on the squad combining costs.
In the games I got in during 8th, my foot guard wasn't suffering that much and infantry squads can actually dish out quite some pain, especially when they each carry a plasma gun or the like. Plasma now costs next to nothing, so truly, there is no reason not to.
For my pure infantry, I'm still doubting between Wilderness Survivors/Disciplined Shooters and Catachan, as both have their nice sides. Although I now tend more towards the more shooting-oriented ones because of how points have gone up on everything.
~7510 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200 
10k p fullpaint orks ready to krump! …
