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Are Grey Knights the most overpowered book GW put out in the last decade?
Yes, GK are the most OP book in the last decade.
No, but they are overpowered.
No, they are just a good 5th ed book.
No, they are just average.
No. Just no.
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Slaanesh in WHFB had leadership bomb. Morale and panic are (or at least were) much more important in WHFB. Slaanesh could take multiple effects to penalize enemy LD, and could force panic tests and/or cast spells which targeted LD.

Overall WH Chaos Daemons were brutal in HtH, brutal in magic, all caused Fear to auto-break enemies once they outnumbered them, and not very expensive for what you got. Oh, and immune to morale and panic. Oh, and Flamers were the best shooting unit in the game, AND tough in HtH.

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imho, the reason for the increase in grey knights has a lot to do with the acceptance of social media (i.e., the metagame) by many 40k players as opposed to previous years combined with the affordability of most GK armies. They are an elite army, a very powerful army, and thus are generally cheaper than most other armies. Dollar-for-dollar, they are probably the best. Also, they are to space marines what space marines are to guardsmen, and space marines always sell well. Finally, I'd say (to the chagrin of many) that they are relatively easy to play and win with compared to most armies, and that their built-in training wheels exacerbate big fish, small pond syndrome. Not only that, but the army can encompass several strategies to their greatest diversity, from MSU to elite generalist to deathstar.

To me, it's a culmination of a whole bunch of factors that leads to their prevalence. Honestly, wraithspam and a few other necron lists can largely walk over most grey knight armies, and have fewer bad matchups. But necrons only have one or two things going for them (in terms of popularity), not a laundry list like GK.

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Lordhat wrote:Just because the codexes are the exactly the same, does not mean that that they're the same codex.
 
   
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Sasa0mg wrote:I would have to say that the evidence is wrong, people are bringing GK because like alot of people here (while they are an easier skill level to use) think that they are drastically broken.

Notice that 7 out of 16 GK players aren't no.1

Just because more people brought them to the event doesn't mean anything if they're not winning. Yes it only increases the chance of having a GK army in the top 5, but if that many GK armies can't take top spot? I don't think it proves anything tbh.


They have to "win" to start with to be able to be ranked on that list we saw.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/29 06:57:49


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Sasa0mg wrote:I would have to say that the evidence is wrong, people are bringing GK because like alot of people here (while they are an easier skill level to use) think that they are drastically broken.

Notice that 7 out of 16 GK players aren't no.1

Just because more people brought them to the event doesn't mean anything if they're not winning. Yes it only increases the chance of having a GK army in the top 5, but if that many GK armies can't take top spot? I don't think it proves anything tbh.


Its simple common sense proves it. I know from merely reading the codex that the GK are overpowered. Mass ID to multi-wound models and igrnoring 33% of the vehicle damage chart are two of the stand out bits of ridiculous in an entirely ridiculous codex.

I dont contribute much to the thread because im not that interested enough to argue, I only play with a couple of people, and nobody owns GK.

But a flick through the dex has me at the conclusion that pretty much everything Shuma has said in this thread I agree with.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/29 07:24:26


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Kitzz wrote:imho, the reason for the increase in grey knights has a lot to do with the acceptance of social media (i.e., the metagame) by many 40k players as opposed to previous years combined with the affordability of most GK armies. They are an elite army, a very powerful army, and thus are generally cheaper than most other armies. Dollar-for-dollar, they are probably the best. Also, they are to space marines what space marines are to guardsmen, and space marines always sell well. Finally, I'd say (to the chagrin of many) that they are relatively easy to play and win with compared to most armies, and that their built-in training wheels exacerbate big fish, small pond syndrome. Not only that, but the army can encompass several strategies to their greatest diversity, from MSU to elite generalist to deathstar.

To me, it's a culmination of a whole bunch of factors that leads to their prevalence. Honestly, wraithspam and a few other necron lists can largely walk over most grey knight armies, and have fewer bad matchups. But necrons only have one or two things going for them (in terms of popularity), not a laundry list like GK.


(These aren't necessarily directed at you but you've mentioned them and they've been used before and never really addressed)

Being cheap doesn't account for people switching over to it from another army. Having the appeal to pull someone off a more expensive army that they already have to a cheaper one they don't doesn't make a lot of sense. Cost benefit and all that.

Being able to field multiple builds is another straw man that pops up. People have said that not being able to tell what they will field (henchies, purifiers, palies) is a powerful aspect in that you never know what's coming, but it is in fact not. A tournament should be bringing you against several types of lists forcing you to be prepared for anything that comes. Being able to field multiple builds is a sign of a stronger underlying thought process behind an army. An army that can only field one or two builds is inherently flawed in construction and design. In theory all builds from an army should be equal.

The tournament list meta focuses on the fact that there are some extremely powerful units that lead to 1 or 2 lists that are head and shoulders above the rest of the codex they come from and compared to other codeci. The problem is that grey knights are capable of fielding various lists at the top level where things are considered broken. Long fangs, melta vets, grey hunters and their ilk. Adepticon showed several flavors of grey knights, from henchmen, to paladins, to strikesquads, to dreadnaughts in different mixes with different flavors making it to the top 16. While this shows a better internal balance of grey knights, it shows a nastier external balance. It shows it's very hard to not trip over a powerful unit in the grey knight codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mannahnin wrote:Slaanesh in WHFB had leadership bomb. Morale and panic are (or at least were) much more important in WHFB. Slaanesh could take multiple effects to penalize enemy LD, and could force panic tests and/or cast spells which targeted LD.

Overall WH Chaos Daemons were brutal in HtH, brutal in magic, all caused Fear to auto-break enemies once they outnumbered them, and not very expensive for what you got. Oh, and immune to morale and panic. Oh, and Flamers were the best shooting unit in the game, AND tough in HtH.


I had completely forgotten about fear bombs and the like. Partially because I played ogres so I never outnumbered to matter and 8th made leadership a joke.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/29 07:45:56


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Mannahnin wrote:It does become a challenge when one army is the best close combat army, best shooting army, best psychic army, and with the aid of one or two characters the best scoring army as well.

Not that they're anywhere near as over the top as the last iteration of WHFB Daemons were in 7th, but they're rough.


Best CC army: GKs
Best shooting army: IG
Best Psychic army: Eldar

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i agree Eldar are definitely the best psychic (and counter-psychic) army. i'm not sure that Coteaz-razorback-dreadnought spam isn't better shooting up mechanised armies than Guard are (but Coteaz lists seem worse against infantry and I think infantry lists are probably the answer to Coteaz lists). Orks seem to me to be a pretty decent alternative to Purifiers or Paladins for best assault army just through the insane number of attacks they can generate.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/29 19:00:29


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helium42 wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:It does become a challenge when one army is the best close combat army, best shooting army, best psychic army, and with the aid of one or two characters the best scoring army as well.

Not that they're anywhere near as over the top as the last iteration of WHFB Daemons were in 7th, but they're rough.


Best CC army: GKs
Best shooting army: IG
Best Psychic army: Eldar


GKs are better at shooting than the Guard, squad for squad. And they have much better force concentration. OTOH the IG are better at shooting as the points levels go up.

GK are better psykers than eldar, period. GK buffs are better, GK offensive powers are better, GK defenses are better. Also GK vehicles are psychic, which is automatically a leg up on everyone but BA.
   
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Surtur wrote:

(These aren't necessarily directed at you but you've mentioned them and they've been used before and never really addressed)

Being cheap doesn't account for people switching over to it from another army. Having the appeal to pull someone off a more expensive army that they already have to a cheaper one they don't doesn't make a lot of sense. Cost benefit and all that.

Being able to field multiple builds is another straw man that pops up. People have said that not being able to tell what they will field (henchies, purifiers, palies) is a powerful aspect in that you never know what's coming, but it is in fact not. A tournament should be bringing you against several types of lists forcing you to be prepared for anything that comes. Being able to field multiple builds is a sign of a stronger underlying thought process behind an army. An army that can only field one or two builds is inherently flawed in construction and design. In theory all builds from an army should be equal.

The tournament list meta focuses on the fact that there are some extremely powerful units that lead to 1 or 2 lists that are head and shoulders above the rest of the codex they come from and compared to other codeci. The problem is that grey knights are capable of fielding various lists at the top level where things are considered broken. Long fangs, melta vets, grey hunters and their ilk. Adepticon showed several flavors of grey knights, from henchmen, to paladins, to strikesquads, to dreadnaughts in different mixes with different flavors making it to the top 16. While this shows a better internal balance of grey knights, it shows a nastier external balance. It shows it's very hard to not trip over a powerful unit in the grey knight codex.


I wasn't trying to say that each of these reasons is solely responsible, just that as a group I think they lead to what we see.

People switching armies is actually less common than new people starting with GKs as their first army. I know more people who were re-introduced or introduced to the game with GKs than switched to them.

About the "not knowing" thing:
A tournament list should indeed be able to beat all comers. My argument was that GKs have at least three very different tournament builds that appeal to three different player demographics. If you like statistically average distributions because you roll bad, you can do MSU henchmen. If you like huge beatsticks or gimmicks, you can do Draigowing. If you like a mix of both, you can do footstrikes or purifier spam. And each of these is a tournament list.

Maybe it's because I play wraithspam, but I win almost all of my games against GKs. I won't disagree that 40-50% of one codex in a tournament field is an obvious sign of imbalance in the game, but I think that at least 20-30% of that field is perceived imbalance as opposed to actual imbalance.

In adepticon, 7 GK lists made it to the top 16 out of what, 50 some lists? Eldar were more successful, per capita. Should we be talking about them as being the most overpowered codex in a decade? Necrons took something like 6 GTs in a row, more than any other army this year. What about them?

Imho, if GK are the most overpowered codex in a decade, that means that 40k has had a pretty decent last decade.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/04/29 19:30:10


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Lordhat wrote:Just because the codexes are the exactly the same, does not mean that that they're the same codex.
 
   
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GK defenses are better


eldar psychic defence is amazingly good. I presume you mean anti-assault/shooting defences (which can't really be sensibly used against Eldar and are hit/miss against any army the brings a hood (unless one brings ravens of course, but how many of the top armies field ravens?)

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Unit1126PLL wrote:
helium42 wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:It does become a challenge when one army is the best close combat army, best shooting army, best psychic army, and with the aid of one or two characters the best scoring army as well.

Not that they're anywhere near as over the top as the last iteration of WHFB Daemons were in 7th, but they're rough.


Best CC army: GKs
Best shooting army: IG
Best Psychic army: Eldar


GKs are better at shooting than the Guard, squad for squad. And they have much better force concentration. OTOH the IG are better at shooting as the points levels go up.

GK are better psykers than eldar, period. GK buffs are better, GK offensive powers are better
I think mind war and doom are slightly better offensive powers.

GK defenses are better.
I'd love to be able to fortune my paladins.

Most broken psychic power in the game belongs to the IG: Weaken Resolve.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/29 21:14:28


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helium42 wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:It does become a challenge when one army is the best close combat army, best shooting army, best psychic army, and with the aid of one or two characters the best scoring army as well.

Not that they're anywhere near as over the top as the last iteration of WHFB Daemons were in 7th, but they're rough.


Best CC army: GKs
Best shooting army: IG
Best Psychic army: Eldar


Alright now to establish this a little better:

BEST CC army: GK rest of armies.... Eldar and then finally IG and Tau
Best Shooting Army: IG/ GK(more durable and better BS and can make the same builds)
Best Psychic Army: Eldar(for defense and ability to pass)/GK(everyone is a psyker even the vehicles and they are better boost IMO)......lots of armies with no psychic powers or psychic hood. All guard has is a leadership 9 power(which can be smashed with hood)

So even IF GK are not the top in the specified categories they are a close second.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/30 05:10:50


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Tomb King wrote:
helium42 wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:It does become a challenge when one army is the best close combat army, best shooting army, best psychic army, and with the aid of one or two characters the best scoring army as well.

Not that they're anywhere near as over the top as the last iteration of WHFB Daemons were in 7th, but they're rough.


Best CC army: GKs
Best shooting army: IG
Best Psychic army: Eldar


Alright now to establish this a little better:

BEST CC army: GK rest of armies.... Eldar and then finally IG and Tau
Best Shooting Army: IG/ GK(more durable and better BS and can make the same builds)
Best Psychic Army: Eldar(for defense and ability to pass)/GK(everyone is a psyker even the vehicles and they are better boost IMO)......lots of armies with no psychic powers or psychic hood. All guard has is a leadership 9 power(which can be smashed with hood)

So even IF GK are not the top in the specified categories they are a close second.


Actually, GK are not the best CC army. Daemons running Fatecrusher are the strongest CC army in the game.
A proper Fatecrusher build will normally destroy Draigo Wing in an assault.

There is nothing in the game that will stand up to a full 3 squads of Bloodcrushers supported by Kairos. If a Bloodthirster
with blessing is involved; forget it.

The GK player would need to be running around 20 Paladins to have a realistic chance against it.
   
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Tomb King wrote:
helium42 wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:It does become a challenge when one army is the best close combat army, best shooting army, best psychic army, and with the aid of one or two characters the best scoring army as well.

Not that they're anywhere near as over the top as the last iteration of WHFB Daemons were in 7th, but they're rough.


Best CC army: GKs
Best shooting army: IG
Best Psychic army: Eldar


Alright now to establish this a little better:

BEST CC army: GK rest of armies.... Eldar and then finally IG and Tau
Best Shooting Army: IG/ GK(more durable and better BS and can make the same builds)
Best Psychic Army: Eldar(for defense and ability to pass)/GK(everyone is a psyker even the vehicles and they are better boost IMO)......lots of armies with no psychic powers or psychic hood. All guard has is a leadership 9 power(which can be smashed with hood)

So even IF GK are not the top in the specified categories they are a close second.


Tomb King, I agree with your assessment, other than blowing off weaken resolve (not every army has psychic defense). My point was that, GKs are not the best at everything, like some in this thread have stated. I really think that they are in line with the last few codexes (BA, Necrons, SW, DE), and share the top three spot with IG and SW in terms of how powerful the codex is. I think that they have maybe the best shooting platform in the game with the psy-rifle dread, but that IG can still put out more raw firepower

@NoArmorSave: How do you run your units of bloodcrushers? I'd like to do some math-hammer on them multi-assaulting and/or being multi-assaulted by a full squad of diverse paladins with a librarian and Draigo attached. Halberds will swing first and with hammerhand and force weapon activation, do some damage. If the paladins get the charge, quicksilver will let everything besides hammers swing before the crushers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/30 06:53:56


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But Gk aren't entirely giving up shooting to do CC. They still carry stormbolters or psycannons (granted that takes one force weapon away). They may not be absolute top dog, but they come damn close and still remain versatile.

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Mannahnin wrote:Slaanesh in WHFB had leadership bomb. Morale and panic are (or at least were) much more important in WHFB. Slaanesh could take multiple effects to penalize enemy LD, and could force panic tests and/or cast spells which targeted LD.

Overall WH Chaos Daemons were brutal in HtH, brutal in magic, all caused Fear to auto-break enemies once they outnumbered them, and not very expensive for what you got. Oh, and immune to morale and panic. Oh, and Flamers were the best shooting unit in the game, AND tough in HtH.


I had a local buddy win the ard boyz semis with a list similar to what you are talking about. He has only played fantasy 3 times before hand (the ard boyz initial round).

Comparing tournament records is another form of e-peen measuring.
 
   
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I still contest that GKs are the best in the game at psychic powers.

Their defenses (Aegis, Reinforced Aegis (especially) and of course psychic hoods) are better than any other Marines.

Their offensive powers are mediocre but not useless.
Their buff powers are stupid good (Might of Titan, Hammerhand, Shrouding, the Quickening, just to name a few).

You may like to fortune your Paladins. But I know many many many people who would like to Might of Titan their Banshees.
   
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Surtur wrote:But Gk aren't entirely giving up shooting to do CC. They still carry stormbolters or psycannons (granted that takes one force weapon away). They may not be absolute top dog, but they come damn close and still remain versatile.


This. Not to mention that their firepower is superior in the 12-24" bubble as they're not rapid fire weapons so can always fire those two shots at full range. Hell, even the local IG powerblob player here knows that.

Essentially I find myself agreeing with the following points from this thread.

-GKs have too many hard counters to too many armies in general.
-Power weapons are abusive. There was an excellent post about how for every other army they are limited and cost points yet GKs spam the buggers like no tomorrow - this is devastating against armies which relied on high armour saves as their form of survival. Tack on top of this the ability to be a force weapon - countering the multiple wound survival (Tyranids and Orks), the other random Nemesis abilities (i.e. +2 initiative from the halberds) which counter things like high initiative survival (Eldar, DE, Tyranids) and their effects on Daemons in general.
-Psychic power to ignore shaken/stunned results is taking the mick. Especially considering a lot of the armies that rely on those results (due to relatively weak anti-armour capabilities i.e. Orks, Tyranids) to delay have no form of proper ranged psychic defense (i.e. psychic hoods).

In short, too many hard counters for too little cost.


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helium42 wrote:
Tomb King wrote:
helium42 wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:It does become a challenge when one army is the best close combat army, best shooting army, best psychic army, and with the aid of one or two characters the best scoring army as well.

Not that they're anywhere near as over the top as the last iteration of WHFB Daemons were in 7th, but they're rough.


Best CC army: GKs
Best shooting army: IG
Best Psychic army: Eldar


Alright now to establish this a little better:

BEST CC army: GK rest of armies.... Eldar and then finally IG and Tau
Best Shooting Army: IG/ GK(more durable and better BS and can make the same builds)
Best Psychic Army: Eldar(for defense and ability to pass)/GK(everyone is a psyker even the vehicles and they are better boost IMO)......lots of armies with no psychic powers or psychic hood. All guard has is a leadership 9 power(which can be smashed with hood)

So even IF GK are not the top in the specified categories they are a close second.


Tomb King, I agree with your assessment, other than blowing off weaken resolve (not every army has psychic defense). My point was that, GKs are not the best at everything, like some in this thread have stated. I really think that they are in line with the last few codexes (BA, Necrons, SW, DE), and share the top three spot with IG and SW in terms of how powerful the codex is. I think that they have maybe the best shooting platform in the game with the psy-rifle dread, but that IG can still put out more raw firepower

@NoArmorSave: How do you run your units of bloodcrushers? I'd like to do some math-hammer on them multi-assaulting and/or being multi-assaulted by a full squad of diverse paladins with a librarian and Draigo attached. Halberds will swing first and with hammerhand and force weapon activation, do some damage. If the paladins get the charge, quicksilver will let everything besides hammers swing before the crushers.


Units of 8 with an Icon, Instrument, and Fury. Essentially, they allocate like Paladins do, each unit needs to take 5 unsaved wounds before they remove a single model.
I have played several games against Draigo Wing, and going last doesn't matter. They have a 5+ invuln, which they are able to reroll, which equates to something like a 75% success rate.

The way it usually goes down, are the Paladins swing, when it is all said and done, if they focus everything on 1 Crusher squad, the Crushers will end up taking somewhere between 10-15 invuln saves. This generally
equates to pulling 1-3 crushers from 1 of the squads. Than the Crushers go. Each squad is coming in with 32 ST6 power weapon attacks if they get the charge.

Force Weapons don't matter, because all Daemons have Eternal Warrior. In a prolonged combat against Paladins and Crushers, Daemonbane will usually pull 1 more Crusher\turn.
   
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NoArmorSave wrote:I have played several games against Draigo Wing, and going last doesn't matter. They have a 5+ invuln, which they are able to reroll, which equates to something like a 75% success rate.

5+ with rerolls is closer to 50% than 75%.
Not going to analyze the rest of the math, just pointing that out.

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The (apparently) most successful GK build is Coteaz-henchmen-razorback spam. Stereotypically (because lists do vary a bit) at 1750 and above this will have:

3 venerable dreadnoughts, 3 dreadnoughts and 6 razorbacks.

It will fire:

12 x TL S8 AP4 shots from 6 platforms (22.33 hits)
24 x TL S7 AP4 rending shots from 6 platforms (21.33 hits)

and may have some melta and plasma guns on henchmen squads if points allow.

It has one power weapon on the c-in-c. It has no vehicle mounted AP1 or 2 and no templates. It utterly murders light-medium armour but will struggle against heavy armoured vehicles thgat have extra-armour. It's main weakness is probably massed infantryarmies with decent AT shooting and assault, which are seldom fielded nowadays. But it does have very weak troops if you can crack open their razorbacks.

It's strength comes mainly from Fortitude and Venerable re-rolls coupled with the TL S8 fire which is very reliable.

It is utterly different from either sort of Draigo list (foot paladins or 'raven-paladins).

Foot paladins will usually field something like

2 x 10 paladins plus a couple of supporting units.

32 S7 AP4 rending shots from 2-4 platforms (21.33 hits)
maybe 8 TL S8 AP4 shots from 2 platforms (7.11 hits)

There are, however a lot of WS5 power weapons and the list may benefit from a psychic hood and Librarian's Might of Titan, Sanctuary, Shrouding.

Its weakness is a general lack of mobility and, to an extent, limited ablity to engage targets due to range and low number of units fielded. It also utterly lacks AP1 and 2 fire and high S templates.

Its main strength is the great durability of its units -- they're really hard to shift. It will also murder most units if it gets up-close.

The raven build has melta and can have plasma templates. It has fewer troops but the means to deliver them to where they can seriously hurt the enemy. Not as super-durable as the foot list but still hard to kill. Its weakness is really the potential fragility of the ravens -- if they go down first turn on the board then the army is in trouble (though that's not usually easily accomplished even by armies with lots of firepower). if a single raven survives beyond turn 3 then the enemy is usually in a lot of trouble.

The third main build is Purifier spam which has dreadnoughts, razorbacks and power weapons. It lacks the durability of the Draigo lists and doesn't have the firepower of a Coteaz list, but it does have good anti-horde (which the other lists rather lack) via Cleansing Flame. Again though, AP 1 and 2 and templates are noticeably absent.

To me the 'problem' with GK is simply that they have changed the metagame and people are reluctant to change their lists to compensate. Coteaz lists have made spamming light-medium AV unnattractive, Draigo and Crowe lists make marines (who rely on their 3+ armour for a lot of their value) less attractive too. Marine all-comers all-comers lists especially suffer - the vehicles get destroyed by Coteaz sam and then they are short of troops, the troops get murdered by Draigo and Purifer lists).

Unpalatable as it may be, i think probably the solution is to change up one's list to take into account the likelihood of encountering the GK. Of course that's pretty hard to do for some armies but if some players start running foot lists, Coteaz lists will do less well overall and become less attractive in their current form of maximised dreadnoughts and razorbacks. If IG players start taking the currently unfancied Hydras (and I notice that some are already doing so), the Draigo-Raven list is undermined. Eldar can shut down foot paladin psychic powers and Doom and Fortune are bad news for any GK.

But if nobody changes up, if people still continue to believe that light-medium vehicle spam is best, then I think GK, and especially Coteaz, will tend to dominate.

I also think the reason necrons don't seem as powerful as GK is partly due to the huge number of possible builds available in that codex and that people are therefore sluggish to get to grips with what works well. As has been mentioned, there's also the fact that they're not as 'attractive' an army for many 40K players so relative lack of popularity stops good builds from being developed and publicised so rapidly. GK also benefitted from every good unit being available immediately while Necrons are still awaiting some models I believe.

Follow these two simple rules to ensure a happy Dakka experience:

Rule 1 - to be a proper 40K player you must cry whenever a new edition of the game is released, and always call opposing armies broken when you don't win.

Rule 2 - Games Workshop are always wrong and have been heading for bankrupcy within 5 years since the early 90s.  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




rigeld2 wrote:
NoArmorSave wrote:I have played several games against Draigo Wing, and going last doesn't matter. They have a 5+ invuln, which they are able to reroll, which equates to something like a 75% success rate.

5+ with rerolls is closer to 50% than 75%.
Not going to analyze the rest of the math, just pointing that out.


You are probably correct. Someone told me 75% or 73%, I forget which. It it still amazing how often a 5++ that is re-rolled passes.

In several games, I lost Kairos pretty early on to massed Psycannon's and Psyriflemen Dread fire. I still won.
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





UK

Well, 66 pages in, I say we give Shuma a hearty back slap.

31% agree with him, and 23% say the GK are overpowered.

Only 3% they are average, and 3% say they are definitely not over powered.

Majority rules chaps.

Seems to me, If you think GK aint broke, you dont want to be honest with yourself because you play the sneaky grey mother fethers.

We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

I don't think "majority rules" really apply to an opinion question...especially not when you look at the results.

31% say they're "the most overpowered book that GW has put out in decades"(something which gets leveled at every book when it comes out).
23% say "No, but they are overpowered."
23% say "No, they are just a good 5th edition book."

Grey Knights is certainly a book with a bit of heft to it, and it certainly can shut down some of the older books with ease. That does not necessarily mean it is overpowered though.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Blood and Slaughter wrote:The (apparently) most successful GK build is Coteaz-henchmen-razorback spam. Stereotypically (because lists do vary a bit) at 1750 and above this will have:

3 venerable dreadnoughts, 3 dreadnoughts and 6 razorbacks.

It will fire:

12 x TL S8 AP4 shots from 6 platforms (22.33 hits)
24 x TL S7 AP4 rending shots from 6 platforms (21.33 hits)

and may have some melta and plasma guns on henchmen squads if points allow.

It has one power weapon on the c-in-c. It has no vehicle mounted AP1 or 2 and no templates. It utterly murders light-medium armour but will struggle against heavy armoured vehicles thgat have extra-armour. It's main weakness is probably massed infantryarmies with decent AT shooting and assault, which are seldom fielded nowadays. But it does have very weak troops if you can crack open their razorbacks.

It's strength comes mainly from Fortitude and Venerable re-rolls coupled with the TL S8 fire which is very reliable.

It is utterly different from either sort of Draigo list (foot paladins or 'raven-paladins).

Foot paladins will usually field something like

2 x 10 paladins plus a couple of supporting units.

32 S7 AP4 rending shots from 2-4 platforms (21.33 hits)
maybe 8 TL S8 AP4 shots from 2 platforms (7.11 hits)

There are, however a lot of WS5 power weapons and the list may benefit from a psychic hood and Librarian's Might of Titan, Sanctuary, Shrouding.

Its weakness is a general lack of mobility and, to an extent, limited ablity to engage targets due to range and low number of units fielded. It also utterly lacks AP1 and 2 fire and high S templates.

Its main strength is the great durability of its units -- they're really hard to shift. It will also murder most units if it gets up-close.

The raven build has melta and can have plasma templates. It has fewer troops but the means to deliver them to where they can seriously hurt the enemy. Not as super-durable as the foot list but still hard to kill. Its weakness is really the potential fragility of the ravens -- if they go down first turn on the board then the army is in trouble (though that's not usually easily accomplished even by armies with lots of firepower). if a single raven survives beyond turn 3 then the enemy is usually in a lot of trouble.

The third main build is Purifier spam which has dreadnoughts, razorbacks and power weapons. It lacks the durability of the Draigo lists and doesn't have the firepower of a Coteaz list, but it does have good anti-horde (which the other lists rather lack) via Cleansing Flame. Again though, AP 1 and 2 and templates are noticeably absent.

To me the 'problem' with GK is simply that they have changed the metagame and people are reluctant to change their lists to compensate. Coteaz lists have made spamming light-medium AV unnattractive, Draigo and Crowe lists make marines (who rely on their 3+ armour for a lot of their value) less attractive too. Marine all-comers all-comers lists especially suffer - the vehicles get destroyed by Coteaz sam and then they are short of troops, the troops get murdered by Draigo and Purifer lists).

Unpalatable as it may be, i think probably the solution is to change up one's list to take into account the likelihood of encountering the GK. Of course that's pretty hard to do for some armies but if some players start running foot lists, Coteaz lists will do less well overall and become less attractive in their current form of maximised dreadnoughts and razorbacks. If IG players start taking the currently unfancied Hydras (and I notice that some are already doing so), the Draigo-Raven list is undermined. Eldar can shut down foot paladin psychic powers and Doom and Fortune are bad news for any GK.

But if nobody changes up, if people still continue to believe that light-medium vehicle spam is best, then I think GK, and especially Coteaz, will tend to dominate.

I also think the reason necrons don't seem as powerful as GK is partly due to the huge number of possible builds available in that codex and that people are therefore sluggish to get to grips with what works well. As has been mentioned, there's also the fact that they're not as 'attractive' an army for many 40K players so relative lack of popularity stops good builds from being developed and publicised so rapidly. GK also benefitted from every good unit being available immediately while Necrons are still awaiting some models I believe.

I really believe that 6th edition (right around the corner) will change all of this. 2 reasons:
1 - Rumors suggest mech spam will be dead because of rules changes to vehicles and vehicle damage.
2 - Wound allocation may be changing (bye bye Draigo Wing, and sadly Fatecrusher). If this is the case, my Daemons will be completely shelved until they get a new book.

With that being said, in the current meta, I am still of the opinion that Purifier Spam > Coteaz Henchmen Spam.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/30 14:06:10


 
   
Made in gb
Excited Doom Diver






Shrewsbury

Actually while I take all 6th ed rumours with a hefty pinch of salt because most ofg them seem to be generated by frustrated 4th ed. players, I hope they change wound allocation so every multi-wound model may allocate regardless of similarity of gear. that would make some unfashionable units (eg Tyranid Warriors, Ogryns) well worth consideration.

My own view is that there's no need to change vehicle rules much if you just allow people to create armies (eg Coteaz spam, Necron scarabs) that make such spam unnatractive.

And I agree, Crowe lists are more balanced (in terms of what they can deal with) than Coteaz lists, it's just Coteaz lists wreck what's currently popular much better (and that makes people a bit upset)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/30 14:21:52


Follow these two simple rules to ensure a happy Dakka experience:

Rule 1 - to be a proper 40K player you must cry whenever a new edition of the game is released, and always call opposing armies broken when you don't win.

Rule 2 - Games Workshop are always wrong and have been heading for bankrupcy within 5 years since the early 90s.  
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins






Scranton

NoArmorSave wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
NoArmorSave wrote:I have played several games against Draigo Wing, and going last doesn't matter. They have a 5+ invuln, which they are able to reroll, which equates to something like a 75% success rate.

5+ with rerolls is closer to 50% than 75%.
Not going to analyze the rest of the math, just pointing that out.


You are probably correct. Someone told me 75% or 73%, I forget which. It it still amazing how often a 5++ that is re-rolled passes.

In several games, I lost Kairos pretty early on to massed Psycannon's and Psyriflemen Dread fire. I still won.


the actual Math works out closer to 52%... It also only takes 27 wounds (before saves) to kill fateweaver every time... OR about 12 psycannons shooting... . This isn't counting the usual 3 dreads, and all of the HB razorbacks, or any of the storm bolters which will also cause wounds really quick on the Fateweaver...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/30 14:41:08


 
   
Made in gb
Excited Doom Diver






Shrewsbury

This isn't counting the usual 3 dreads, and all of the HB razorbacks, or any of the storm bolters which will also cause wounds really quick on the Fateweaver...


To be fair he was talking about it defeating a Draigo list which will likely have no razorbacks and probably only two dreadnoughts. A Draigo list will have 8 psycannon of course and their stormbolters but it's not necessarily the case that all these will be able to target Fateweaver or that even if they can he will die (though he may well do). Personally I think Khorne demons are a decent match for Draigo builds.

8 psycannon produce 32 shots of which about 22 will hit, which is about 19 wounds before saves. The two dreadnoughts (if featuring, not all competitive foot paladin lists run them) will add 8 more shots of which about 7 will hit and around six more wounds. With additional stormbolters, that should do it. But often the battlefield makes bringing all that to bear on even a single large model harder than it might be.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/04/30 14:52:46


Follow these two simple rules to ensure a happy Dakka experience:

Rule 1 - to be a proper 40K player you must cry whenever a new edition of the game is released, and always call opposing armies broken when you don't win.

Rule 2 - Games Workshop are always wrong and have been heading for bankrupcy within 5 years since the early 90s.  
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

1


Automatically Appended Next Post:
NoArmorSave wrote:
I really believe that 6th edition (right around the corner) will change all of this. 2 reasons:
1 - Rumors suggest mech spam will be dead because of rules changes to vehicles and vehicle damage.
2 - Wound allocation may be changing (bye bye Draigo Wing, and sadly Fatecrusher). If this is the case, my Daemons will be completely shelved until they get a new book.

With that being said, in the current meta, I am still of the opinion that Purifier Spam > Coteaz Henchmen Spam.
keep in mind, hey aren't mutually exclusive. You can take both characters, fit in 3 squads of purifiers, 3 min/max'd weeny squads, and they can work fairly effectively. You've got the weenies for objective holding and extra tanks, and the purifiers to whack stuff and objective seizing.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/04/30 15:01:44


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Pasadena

mattyrm wrote: Well, 66 pages in, I say we give Shuma a hearty back slap.

31% agree with him, and 23% say the GK are overpowered.

Only 3% they are average, and 3% say they are definitely not over powered.

Majority rules chaps.

Seems to me, If you think GK aint broke, you dont want to be honest with yourself because you play the sneaky grey mother fethers.


Ummm...

51% of people answering the poll answered with a "No" in some way shape or form.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/30 15:03:59


Las Vegas Open Head Judge
I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings or pride, but your credentials matter. Even on the internet.
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