Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The topic of this is Grey Knights are the most overpowered book GW has put out in a decade.

I think by Augustus pointing out all the things that they can do and then others following up with basically - oh yea? well this army has this one thing that is like one of those, and this army has this one thing that is like one of the other things you pointed out - kind of makes the point of this topic true given that Grey Knights don't have just one or two of those things.... they have all of them... no other codex has all of them.

After seeing the Necron codex come out I was expecting the trend of Codex creep to continue but I don't see it. Necrons are far better than they were, and got some cool stuff, but they did not get all the cool stuff like Grey Knights did.

Sure, they don't get Waaagh!, Mob Rule, the necron resurrection protocol thingy, fleet on everyone, Calgar's we only fail morale when we want to rule, or whatever special rule some other army gets, but I think it is fair to say the combination of what rules they do get is > those that other codices get.

Ozymandias wrote:Old Necron Tomb Spiders. :p

Lol. Nice.

GK are just stupid. Like fanfic, over the top stupid. That's what bothers me (and I'm sure a lot of other people too).

Okay, so we're back to the beginning of the thread.

Show us where GK are beating everyone handily at tournaments and maybe we'll take you seriously. So far we have seen that they are competing with everyone else but haven't seen any of this OMG BORKEN that everyone seems to indicate should be occuring.

The difference is that you need half a brain to win with IG and SW. A friend of mine made a GK list and took second at a tournament never having played the list before then. That's my point. The GK codex reads like it was designed by a 12 year old who just wanted all the best toys in one list. There are things in there that should never have made it through playtesting.

Frothmog wrote: Grey Knights don't have just one or two of those things.... they have all of them... no other codex has all of them.

I'm going to let you in on a secret, Frothmog.

No other codex has all the stuff of another codex. SHOCKING

We could make a list from every codex and guarantee there's going to be a big list of stuff that that codex gets to do and no other codex will have that exact same list. OH NOES

Does this mean they are all the borkenz?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ozymandias wrote: A friend of mine made a GK list and took second at a tournament never having played the list before then.

A friend of mind just made a sisters list and took Best General at a tournament never having played the list before then.

Seriously.

http://www.ordofanaticus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=125505#p125505

OMG, Sisters are broken now!

pretre wrote:

Frothmog wrote: Grey Knights don't have just one or two of those things.... they have all of them... no other codex has all of them.

I'm going to let you in on a secret, Frothmog.

No other codex has all the stuff of another codex. SHOCKING

We could make a list from every codex and guarantee there's going to be a big list of stuff that that codex gets to do and no other codex will have that exact same list. OH NOES

Does this mean they are all the borkenz?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ozymandias wrote: A friend of mine made a GK list and took second at a tournament never having played the list before then.

A friend of mind just made a sisters list and took Best General at a tournament never having played the list before then.

Seriously.

http://www.ordofanaticus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=125505#p125505

OMG, Sisters are broken now!

When I said that they had all of them I was referring to the comparisons you said that other armies had. You were posting things that other armies had that matched (although Zogwort's ability to possibly change the stats of one guy per turn and only ICs is hardly as awesome as Rad grenades ability to always lower the toughness of an entire squad).

So in that case, yes they have all the ones you yourself said were similar to the ones you grabbed from several codices in an attempt to say other armies have those too.

I then later in my post pointed out that I know they do not have all of them, but that I believe they have a greater number of the better ones than any other codex.

Perhaps reading all of a post would help you understand other peoples point of view. I should have put this at the beginning of this post too...

Frothmog wrote:When I said that they had all of them I was referring to the comparisons you said that other armies had. You were posting things that other armies had that matched (although Zogwort's ability to possibly change the stats of one guy per turn and only ICs is hardly as awesome as Rad grenades ability to always lower the toughness of an entire squad).

Oh, I got it. Hence my reply to what you posted.

So in that case, yes they have all the ones you yourself said were similar to the ones you grabbed from several codices in an attempt to say other armies have those too.

Oh, I got it. Hence my reply to what you posted.

I then later in my post pointed out that I know they do not have all of them, but that I believe they have a greater number of the better ones than any other codex.

Oh, I got it. Hence my reply to what you posted.

Perhaps reading all of a post would help you understand other peoples point of view. I should have put this at the beginning of this post too...

Oh, I got it. Hence my reply to what you posted.

Go back and read what I posted. Maybe out loud. Wait, I'll summarize.

We could do the same thing that he did with ANY codex. Every codex has unique things that no other codex has. A lot of them. I bet we could come up with TONS of things, just like he did. And there would be no duplication of the entire list, just like his list.

So yeah... That same thing.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oops, my quotey thing looks to be broken.

pretre wrote:

Frothmog wrote:When I said that they had all of them I was referring to the comparisons you said that other armies had. You were posting things that other armies had that matched (although Zogwort's ability to possibly change the stats of one guy per turn and only ICs is hardly as awesome as Rad grenades ability to always lower the toughness of an entire squad).

Oh, I got it. Hence my reply to what you posted.

So in that case, yes they have all the ones you yourself said were similar to the ones you grabbed from several codices in an attempt to say other armies have those too.

Oh, I got it. Hence my reply to what you posted.

I then later in my post pointed out that I know they do not have all of them, but that I believe they have a greater number of the better ones than any other codex.

Oh, I got it. Hence my reply to what you posted.

Perhaps reading all of a post would help you understand other peoples point of view. I should have put this at the beginning of this post too...

Oh, I got it. Hence my reply to what you posted.

Go back and read what I posted. Maybe out loud. Wait, I'll summarize.

We could do the same thing that he did with ANY codex. Every codex has unique things that no other codex has. A lot of them. I bet we could come up with TONS of things, just like he did. And there would be no duplication of the entire list, just like his list.

So yeah... That same thing.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oops, my quotey thing looks to be broken.

Except that any list of rules you collect from any codex is not going to have near the number of broken abilities that the Grey Knight codex has.

Sure there may be different, or possibly a greater number of special rules but they won't be as effectively broken in game play when combined with other parts of the army.

I would agree that many of the things in his list are not game breaking, but there are a greater number of powerful abilities in the Grey Knight codex that work well enough together that make the Grey knights an easy to win army.

I think the best way to put it is that Grey Knights have the best collection of good stuff without having to take the parts that are generally weaknesses in other codices.

They tend to have a greater number of units that can take advantage of the good abilities too.

Frothmog wrote:...pointing out all the things that they can do and then others following up with basically - oh yea? well this army has this one thing that is like one of those, and this army has this one thing that is like one of the other things you pointed out - kind of makes the point of this topic true given that Grey Knights don't have just one or two of those things.... they have all of them... no other codex has all of them...

More elegantly stated than I did, but yes, precisely.

pretre wrote:
We could do the same thing that he did with ANY codex. Every codex has unique things that no other codex has. A lot of them. I bet we could come up with TONS of things, just like

For example, Eldar have substantially more special rules than most codexes. It doesn't stop them from being garbage water.

Grey Knights > Dark Eldar > Tyranids > Imperial Guard > Necrons > Chaos Demons > Space Wolves > Blood Angels > Chaos Space Marines > Tau > Grey Knights...

It's Rock Paper etc.. folks.

When addressing the meta, don't play something that sucks against what 50% of the enemy is bringing.... and always assume your enemy is a marine, and you will ever only be wrong half the time.

Prodigalson wrote:
When addressing the meta, don't play something that sucks against what 50% of the enemy is bringing.... and always assume your enemy is a marine, and you will ever only be wrong half the time.]

Eh, the only problem there will be what kind of Marine you're playing - the kind that likes to stay back and shoot (Blue and Green), the ones that can stand back and then assault (Silver and Grey), or the ones that'll want to get right stuck in (Black and Red).

Did I miss any colors?

Ozymandias wrote:The difference is that you need half a brain to win with IG and SW. A friend of mine made a GK list and took second at a tournament never having played the list before then. That's my point. The GK codex reads like it was designed by a 12 year old who just wanted all the best toys in one list. There are things in there that should never have made it through playtesting.

LOL Really? How much brain power does it take to split fire 18 missile launchers a turn and rhino rush a bunch of grey hunters at someone? How hard is it to bubble wrap three manticores in a chimera parking lot? I mean, yeah we get it that you are butthurt about a third power army being introduced into the metagame, but there is nothing more mindlessly easy than IG and SW Netlists. GK actually have to leave their deployment zone to win.

I said that IG and SW need half a brain to win (reading comprehension is your friend). GK needs no brain.

Guess we should just complain to GW and make them remove the book from existence, right? Because there's totally something we can do about it.

Get over yourselves. If you hate GKs so much, don't play them. Complaining about them on the internet is like screaming at a brick wall.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Guess we should just complain to GW and make them remove the book from existence, right? Because there's totally something we can do about it.

Get over yourselves. If you hate GKs so much, don't play them. Complaining about them on the internet is like screaming at a brick wall.

Im undecided, though tend towards GK's having too many good rules. However the comment that you can simply ignore them isn't possible in a tournament situation...

I'm starting to get sick of all this OP crap. no army is over powered. all that happens is that when a new dex comes along people gack themselves as they have to think up a new tactic to beat an old army.

"oh no, now GK's have STR8 autocannons and I cant just sit back and fire lasbacks at them. they must be broken herp derp"

"oh no, necrons have a harp that can blow up a tank each turn, whats my all mek army going to do now?!? they must be broken"

you see where this is going.... -_-'

lazarian wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:Guess we should just complain to GW and make them remove the book from existence, right? Because there's totally something we can do about it.

Get over yourselves. If you hate GKs so much, don't play them. Complaining about them on the internet is like screaming at a brick wall.

Im undecided, though tend towards GK's having too many good rules. However the comment that you can simply ignore them isn't possible in a tournament situation...

That's true. I guess in a tournament situation you can just suck up your hatred and play your hardest. If you win, great! If you lose... well it's GK

Ozymandias wrote:I said that IG and SW need half a brain to win (reading comprehension is your friend). GK needs no brain.

I have a feeling he understood exactly what you meant. Half a brain, no brain, whatever fraction of brainy organ, you apparently need some to play Space Wolves, whereas you can have a head as empty as a coconut and still face-roll games with Grey Knights.

Semantics, because you can't defend your point any other way, isn't that a surprise?

Aside, no army in 5th is over-powered. I'm sure you could make a compelling case as to how good the Grey Knights are, with all their powerful units and delicious special rules, but I always prefer balanced essays to persuasive ones.

How about their weaknesses? They die like every other marine army, and providing someone isn't spamming henchmen ( and thus taking away any sort of advantage given by playing psychic space marines ) the model count is always going to be low.

Why? Because points, that's why. All Grey Knight units are pretty expensive for what they do, even before you plonk them with half a dozen tasty toppings.

So yeah, you and your little hater gang are wrong.

iproxtaco wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:I said that IG and SW need half a brain to win (reading comprehension is your friend). GK needs no brain.

I have a feeling he understood exactly what you meant. Half a brain, no brain, whatever fraction of brainy organ, you apparently need some to play Space Wolves, whereas you can have a head as empty as a coconut and still face-roll games with Grey Knights.

Semantics, because you can't defend your point any other way, isn't that a surprise?

Half a brain is decidedly more than no brain at all I would think. In the land of the empty headed folks, the man with half a brain is king as the saying goes. So it seems to me that they are different and not merely semantics.

there are a few things that i ( as a GK player) find a bit op... but not overly so... oin that note,, i doint find them vary cheep to play at all.. of corse i dont have one gk in my gk army..lol , never the less, new codex= new army intrest=higher raitings due to a majority of intrest. look at the new cron codex, just as "op"

Dok wrote:This is a silly thread. No army is an auto-win button unless you're playing against a robot. Time has passed and people have devised tactics to beat GK. Just as they devised tactics to beat SW, just as they devised tactics to beat IG, etc, etc.

Also, Complaining about purifiers when there are Grey hunters out there seems like a silly waste of time. You can take more than 2:1 grey hunters to purifiers when you factor in crowe. I'm sure all the SW players are like "woo hoo! I mean... uh... yeah, those purifiers are crazy OP!!!". And anyways what does complaining about them get done? Do you think GW is gonna come down from on high and ban something? When was the last time that happened... oh, right. Never.

TLR Work on beating lists, not bitching about them.

I'm real sure those space wolves are going to do well when a librarian might of titan+hammerhands a unit of DCAs and they cause (on average) 25 power weapon wounds at initiative six to your gray hunters while being less expensive. I'm sure you'll work all the way through beating the assaulting purifiers which kill gray hunters at a rate of one per three attacks. Gray hunters kill purifiers at a rate of one per twelve. Purifiers do not cost four times what gray hunters do and a squad of 10 purifiers vs a squad of 10 gray hunters in an even fight will result in 6 dead GHs and .66 dead purifiers when you factor in I6 and the fact that kills deny attacks. That's not even counting cleansing flame or the storm bolters.

TLR people whine about others not bootstrapping because they don't want to believe that their game could possibly be unbalanced.

Yay. Shuma's back. Where's our list of tournaments swept by GKs?

pretre wrote:Yay. Shuma's back. Where's our list of tournaments swept by GKs?

I gave you one already. Both Nova Opens and the Ard boyz prelims. One is a major tourney with like 100 people. One is a national Tourney with thousands. One is an international invitational with some of the worlds best players. As I said previously, it doesn't appear that you're reading results correctly or you're simply not reading them at all.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Dok wrote:This is a silly thread. No army is an auto-win button unless you're playing against a robot. Time has passed and people have devised tactics to beat GK. Just as they devised tactics to beat SW, just as they devised tactics to beat IG, etc, etc.

Also, Complaining about purifiers when there are Grey hunters out there seems like a silly waste of time. You can take more than 2:1 grey hunters to purifiers when you factor in crowe. I'm sure all the SW players are like "woo hoo! I mean... uh... yeah, those purifiers are crazy OP!!!". And anyways what does complaining about them get done? Do you think GW is gonna come down from on high and ban something? When was the last time that happened... oh, right. Never.

TLR Work on beating lists, not bitching about them.

I'm real sure those space wolves are going to do well when a librarian might of titan+hammerhands a unit of DCAs and they cause (on average) 25 power weapon wounds at initiative six to your gray hunters while being less expensive. I'm sure you'll work all the way through beating the assaulting purifiers which kill gray hunters at a rate of one per three attacks. Gray hunters kill purifiers at a rate of one per twelve. Purifiers do not cost four times what gray hunters do and a squad of 10 purifiers vs a squad of 10 gray hunters in an even fight will result in 6 dead GHs and .66 dead purifiers when you factor in I6 and the fact that kills deny attacks. That's not even counting cleansing flame or the storm bolters.

TLR people whine about others not bootstrapping because they don't want to believe that their game could possibly be unbalanced.

That was quite possibly one of the worst examples I have ever seen, ever.

A few reality checks:

1) If you're going to compare units, compare things people actually take. Almost no one puts halberds on their purifiers.
2) You're not factoring in the cost of crowe, a relatively useless character (almost a liability since he can't even join a unit and enemies get bonuses against him)
3) A librarian (165 is the typical cost) + unit of dcas (you're causing 25 power weapon wounds somehow, so I'll guess, hitting on 3's, that you have roughly a full 12 charging) (180 points), and there isn't a rune priest around to stop said hammerhand, who, unlike the rarely taken librarian, is taken in every SW army, period? Yea, that grey hunter unit getting killed by a unit twice it's points, who luckily avoided hooding on both of it's powers, who luckily got the charge even though there isn't a transport to carry them on a unit that would have a transport, and didn't have to charge through cover which would make them I1 (no grenades), and didn't get shot up on it's way TO charging. Man, those grey hunters did have it rough I guess.

"Purifiers do not cost four times what gray hunters do and a squad of 10 purifiers vs a squad of 10 gray hunters in an even fight will result in 6 dead GHs and .66 dead purifiers when you factor in I6 and the fact that kills deny attacks. That's not even counting cleansing flame or the storm bolters."

1) A typical 10 man purifier unit runs 285, without transport, that's without your halberds, that no one takes. That's 10, with 1 hammer, and 4 psycannons. 10 Grey Hunters costs under 200 points. How is this an "even fight"?
2) If you count cleansing flame, you couldn't count your "broken" hammerhanding which I'm sure you included in the wounding necessary to kill 6 GH's
3) You didnt count the grey hunters shooting, why count the storm bolters?

That fight actually looks like this, and I'll even give you the halberds no one takes, now the purifiers are 300 points without a transport, yippee!

Purifiers charge

-Halberds, 5 guys, 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, if you get hammerhand off, 5 dead, if you don't, 3.75
-Guys with psycannons/special weapons at I4: 12 attacks, 6 hits, 4 wounds with hammerhand, 1.33 dead, or 3 wounds and 1 dead without

5 GH swing back if they had hammer hand: 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, 1.25 dead purifiers
6 GH swing back if they didn't have hammer hand: 18 attacks, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds, 1.5 dead purifiers

hammers and wolfguard with fist go simul, a couple more guys drop.

Without the charge (GH will always get a charge attack with counter attack)

Halberds: 10 -> 5 -> (3/2.5)
7 ish Gh swing back...you see where this is going

Without halberds, the combat is basically a wash. And thats with a specialized elite slot unit versus a troop unit that costs 1/3 less.

GK's are fine, get over it.

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:Yay. Shuma's back. Where's our list of tournaments swept by GKs?

I gave you one already. Both Nova Opens and the Ard boyz prelims. One is a major tourney with like 100 people. One is a national Tourney with thousands. One is an international invitational with some of the worlds best players. As I said previously, it doesn't appear that you're reading results correctly or you're simply not reading them at all.

You said more than 50% of the top tables.

Okay, what were the top tables at Nova?
I gave you 'Ard Boyz Prelims and one Final already, although I think that is a function of how many GK armies showed up and we have no way to know that. FWIW, the West coast final was not won by GK, but we don't have top table info except for the one final you provided. We certainly don't have top table info for prelims. FWIW, my prelims was DE vs IG on the top table.

So far, BFS (less than 1/2 of the top tables) and Da Boyz (less than 1/2 of the top 10, even counting just Battle Points) both proved you wrong, as was determined in the other thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So basically, provide me with examples of >50% of the top tables being GK.

I accept that Blackmoor is a superb general with a good army, but I don't accept that that's the only reason he won.

If you show me that it is an across the board >50% of top tables thing, as you originally contended, than I will accept your premise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And just as a reminder, here's what you said:

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:If GK was as OP as everyone on the internet puts it out to be we'd probably have some different results in the competitive community.

Gray knights being half or more of the top tables in every major tourney since the book was released isn't good enough?

Prove it.

DPBellathrom wrote:I'm starting to get sick of all this OP crap. no army is over powered. all that happens is that when a new dex comes along people gack themselves as they have to think up a new tactic to beat an old army.

"oh no, now GK's have STR8 autocannons and I cant just sit back and fire lasbacks at them. they must be broken herp derp"

"oh no, necrons have a harp that can blow up a tank each turn, whats my all mek army going to do now?!? they must be broken"

you see where this is going.... -_-'

Oh no, gray knights have psycanons which are identical to assault canons except they have one strength higher and are ten points less! Oh no! A venerable psyback is the same cost as a venerable rifleman with armor but has str8 shots and can be made scoring and given supercover! Oh no, a grey knight palladin with a psycanon costs the same as a terminator with an assault canon but his gun is better, his weapon is better, his WS is better, he has psychic powers, and he has more wounds! Oh no, a death cult assassin costs less than a genestealer but has more attacks, a power weapon, has access to two different kinds of assault vehicles and benefits from numerous stacking psychic powers! Oh no! A techmarine can take psychotrope grenades and in an assault will automatically win because you're unit will become WS1, will attack itself, or wont attack at all! Oh no! An unupgraded dreadknights costs less and is better then an upgraded demon prince and hands almost every MC in the game its own ass while being sometimes half the points (and it's considered a weak unit in the book)!

Herp derp durp de derp. Everything is balanced, nothing is wrong in the game of 40k. A game laughed at as being woefully unbalanced at times.

whitedragon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:I said that IG and SW need half a brain to win (reading comprehension is your friend). GK needs no brain.

I have a feeling he understood exactly what you meant. Half a brain, no brain, whatever fraction of brainy organ, you apparently need some to play Space Wolves, whereas you can have a head as empty as a coconut and still face-roll games with Grey Knights.

Semantics, because you can't defend your point any other way, isn't that a surprise?

Half a brain is decidedly more than no brain at all I would think. In the land of the empty headed folks, the man with half a brain is king as the saying goes. So it seems to me that they are different and not merely semantics.

Okee. I understand that in reality, there's a difference, but in the context stating exactly how much brain you need to play Space Wolves effectively when the other side of the conversation understands what you mean, is semantics.

pretre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:Yay. Shuma's back. Where's our list of tournaments swept by GKs?

I gave you one already. Both Nova Opens and the Ard boyz prelims. One is a major tourney with like 100 people. One is a national Tourney with thousands. One is an international invitational with some of the worlds best players. As I said previously, it doesn't appear that you're reading results correctly or you're simply not reading them at all.

You said more than 50% of the top tables.

Okay, what were the top tables at Nova?
I gave you 'Ard Boyz Prelims and one Final already, although I think that is a function of how many GK armies showed up and we have no way to know that. FWIW, the West coast final was not won by GK, but we don't have top table info except for the one final you provided. We certainly don't have top table info for prelims. FWIW, my prelims was DE vs IG on the top table.

So far, BFS (less than 1/2 of the top tables) and Da Boyz (less than 1/2 of the top 10, even counting just Battle Points) both proved you wrong, as was determined in the other thread.

This is a bs argument. If it's the top two then they have been in the top of every one. If it's the top five then they all have at least two in there, in one of them it was four. If it's the top 10 then that number skews down. If it's the top 20 then it skews further. The more inclusive the "top tables' are then the closer you are going to get to parity with the statistical weight of the entrys of the GKs in those tournies. This whole argument is a waste of time. "Top tables" is not a quantitative measurement with a built in definition and yours has been shifting consistently. I was being hyperbolic in the first place and you called me out on it, but guess what we established? That they've won almost every major tournament since their release. Were they 5 of the top 10 in every one? Nope. Did they win everything? Nope.

But I guess that's why I didn't say "They have won everything" or "they have been five out of the top ten in everything".

That they've won almost every major tournament since their release.

Prove it.

BFS, Da Boyz and 'Ard Boyz Finals - West were all won by non GK. Your move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heck not even 50% of preliminary and semis were Gk, I bet.

pretre wrote:

That they've won almost every major tournament since their release.

Prove it.

BFS, Da Boyz and 'Ard Boyz Finals - West were all won by non GK. Your move.

It looks like the GKs won ard boyz to me, but I can't find a very official report on the winners. Just this one website that specifies that it was regional (which doesn't make sense to me).

Da Boyz is an outlier as it wasn't a strictly competitive event and was heavily influenced by comp and army comp scores. These are not reflected in the codex or it's power level.

And it looks like they did win the battle for salvation. They won the gold bracket which I assume is the top bracket after the other two were settled in the first couple of rounds.

I also noted that they won the nova open and invitational, so it looks like they won four out of the five tournies we are currently talking about.