Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have actually had more success with Deathwing than Ravenwing in my area.

Brigade works fine starting from 2250 points. For 2000 points 2 battalions is preferable in my opinion.

 captain collius wrote:


it worked well especially with my turn two 4 inch charge, i brought the chaplain and ancient in 9" away but their auras worked especially when both made their pwn 7" charges. I wiped 4 units of necrons (warriors and two immortals and a lord with scythe.) while my dreadnoughts and plasma cannons picked off fliers. It worked well.

The chaplain wont be able to chant the turn he deepstrikes so it sounds like you played it wrong?

Even with the cool DA litany, I'm not sure Chappies are worth it. Only unit I really want to use that litany on is Aggressors (because being stationary procs both Grim Resolve and their double shooting), and taking a Chaplain is just adding points to make one unit good. Maybe I'm missing something, I dunno. I still think the go-to HQ's are Sammy in Sableclaw and Talonmasters. Honorable mention to the Master in Phobos Armor though; he's been useful to me in several games.

On another note, how do people feel about our planes now? Dark Talons got a small points reduction in CA2019, and Nephilims got a much bigger one. With Doctrines I'm thinking Nephys might actually be okay now, if not great or anything. Considering running an Air Wing with 2 Dark Talons and a Nephy. Stormravens are still massively overpriced for competitive play, but could perhaps be a sort of okay delivery method for Deathwing Knights, at least in casual/semicomp play.

Speaking of Deathwing Knights, I really want to try out a big blob of them (10 guys), dropping in next to a Ravenwing unit for an easy 6 inch charge on something juicy. I imagine there's decent counterplay to this though if your opponent has good screens. Good thing the character speeders and planes are good at killing chaff!

Update on the post from the other day. I got to play test the Ravenwing list and it performed ok but not spectacular. I was playing with a guy running a Chaos Soup list and we went against a big gun Ad Mech list paired with 7 Dreadnought Blood Angels list.

Any big guns with a decent amount of shots were wrecking my Land Speeders and the bikers. My Black Knights were awesome though.

I think the DA litany is just a bonus, the real gem is the +1 to hit litany so plasma can safely overcharge.

The DA Litany is also really good for moving Eliminators and Intercessors with Stalker Bolt Rifles onto good positions. You can start them out of LOS and move them up first turn without losing rerolls or taking the heavy weapon penalty.

And, yeah, the DA litany is free so you can get it in addition to the +1 to hit litany or any other one and then choose which to activate each turn depending on the game state.

Chaplain will be worthwhile, if you build your army around it (Agressors, Intercessors, Suppressors).
Regarding aircrafts, I think that 1-3 Nephilims with impeccable mobility Talonmaster is a very nasty combo.

 Smirrors wrote:

 captain collius wrote:


it worked well especially with my turn two 4 inch charge, i brought the chaplain and ancient in 9" away but their auras worked especially when both made their pwn 7" charges. I wiped 4 units of necrons (warriors and two immortals and a lord with scythe.) while my dreadnoughts and plasma cannons picked off fliers. It worked well.

The chaplain wont be able to chant the turn he deepstrikes so it sounds like you played it wrong?

So I Did. Tis no matter ill simply bring in a jump pack chappy

I think our "trick" play is 10 Deathwing Knights supported by Deathwing Ancient and either Belial or Libby Terminator, teleported in via Ravenwing Apothecary. In total this section costs 616pts leaving you plenty to fill around it (and you will want to run 2 battalions at minimum).

Deathwing Ancient gives +1 attack but its mainly the relic banner which also gives a 5+++ on top (yes you get both!). He should also get the character trait Master of Maneuver to give reroll charges and advance which the Knights will definitely need after they destroy their target.

With their 3++/5+++, and Transhuman Physiology (2CP), or +1T or -1 to Wound (1CP) these guys should hopefully survive return fire. Dont forget that watcher to deny a smite.

For offense they can get +1 to hit or get extra attacks for hordes at 1CP each (against mobs of 10+, this 10 man squad can generate 51 attacks!). For 3CP attack again!

(In a meta the rewards maximising blobs I am curious whether a second blob would be worthwhile for security).

Belial or Libby is pretty self explanatory. Belial for the full rerolls is set and forget or the libby for full reroll hit and wounds is better but in a psychic meta it is high risk reward. I prefer Belial. There are arguments you may not even need these characters so can be dropped if you need to skimp on points.

Ravenwing Apothecary is straight forward. He is the delivery mechanism. Can heal himself, can heal the knights, can grab objectives afterwards, can add some extra shooting and close combat with short notice. With Full Throttle (1CP), he can deliver knights with a threat range of min 41" (14 move +14 move again +7 deploy +6 assault). All for 60pts!

I think its a pretty powerful tool box for the Dark Angels and very fluffy too. Its all theory crafting but with the dakka we get from our speeders, we should be able to clear screens comfortably.

The counter to Knights is probably going to be smite spam but everyone has to face that terror.

I am running something similar to this in an upcoming team tournament. If you want to get funny, take the Ancient and give him the relic banner, plus a Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer. Then give him the Warlord trait Watched so you get the free denial once a game.

Then take a Master in Terminator armor and give him Lay Low the Mighty. So now the Knights and Ancient are destroying characters and anything with 8+ wounds.

 Reivax26 wrote:
I am running something similar to this in an upcoming team tournament. If you want to get funny, take the Ancient and give him the relic banner, plus a Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer. Then give him the Warlord trait Watched so you get the free denial once a game.

Then take a Master in Terminator armor and give him Lay Low the Mighty. So now the Knights and Ancient are destroying characters and anything with 8+ wounds.

Its a shame the character cost of thunder hammer and shield is so much (39pt premium). Deny would be nice but the volume of stuff that is coming his way will make that deny basically useless.

That said Lay Low the Mighty might be a good option on the Ancient as well if you feel you can skip the reroll charge and assault but I feel that will sometimes backfire. Given that this 10 man squad needs to get into combat at all cost I feel like you need to go all in.

Its a real shame that Belial has Huntsman for his trait, absolutely balls for what you want him to do. That said his full rerolls for Deathwing and his sword that wounds on 2s (hit 2 with rerolls, wound 2, AP3 D2) is not bad for 125pts.

I am currently taking a Talonmaster with Impeccable Mobility which means only 1 extra character which I have chosen for the Ancient.

You don't need Belial or Librarian really. Sammael allows DW to reroll ones and is probably more useful overall. Pop the strat to allow the knights to hit on 2s and you can rock n roll. I'd probably give the Ancient the lay Low the Might trait if facing lots of vehicles or knights etc.

Given the nature of the list, the Deathwing Knights will go where they have to so usually unsupported. With the apothecary moving up to 28" they are unlikely be in range of any buffs other than Ancient. But with +1 to hit strat, I agree they dont have to be buffed. As hitting on 2s and wounding on 2/3s with that volume of attacks should be sufficient outside of T8 which you may want to consider the Libby.

I am just glad that they actually did something to help Deathwing.

Saw some GT results for a couple of different events on a Warhammer facebook group, and Dark Angels won one of them and made a strong showing in another. Don't know the full lists, but I know the one that won an event had 3 Dark Talons and 3 Nephilims in it along with a Darkshroud. Somehow I doubt DA flyer spam will ever be as cancer as Alaitoc spam was, but it looks like it can be made to work. Of course, it could be very matchup dependent (one comment said something about the list not facing any of the current meta defining lists like Iron Hands).

I'm not going to buy into something like that without more data though. What I am thinking of doing is getting some more Deathwing Knights to run a full unit of 10. That should do some work if they can drop next to something juicy.

Yup the genghiscon

https://www.40kstats.com/genghiscon

I was originally going to build into knights but the comp scene will be sammael, talonmasters and flyers.

I am taking 2 impulsors to help screen. But the invictors are solid choices with the changes to ITC deployment. Not sure of his eliminator choices either but they would help screen out.

Context of the tournament would be important to see what else was there. 2nd was GK paladin bombs but it looks like he dodged that match up.

I'm taking a Talonmaster trio plus Sammael and Black Knights to a six round tourney this weekend. I made some adjustments to fit in some DW Knights out of nostalgia and an interest in the 6" deep strike. It's a dual Battalion for CPs and enough screening troops to let the Talonmasters bring the rain.

It's done well in test games - but the proof will be in the pudding!

I'll definitely give a Flyer-heavy list a try at some point. I only have 2 Dark Talons, a Nephilim, and a Stormraven, so I can't do the double Air Wing thing, but instead I could have more stuff on the ground to prevent getting Boots'd. That would be my main concern in a really tough meta when you bring so many flyers; the potential to lose to Boots on the Ground. Alaitoc could avoid it by having durable vehicles that could hide out of LOS and still shoot (Night Spinners) or were just a pain in the ass to remove (Wave Serpents), plus having good hit modifiers on everything.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I'm taking a Talonmaster trio plus Sammael and Black Knights to a six round tourney this weekend. I made some adjustments to fit in some DW Knights out of nostalgia and an interest in the 6" deep strike. It's a dual Battalion for CPs and enough screening troops to let the Talonmasters bring the rain.

It's done well in test games - but the proof will be in the pudding!

Curious what you are using to screen the Speeders?

Ive got a 3 round RTT this Sunday and taking the following:

Sammael and 2 Talonmasters
3 x 5 Intercessors
2 Impulsors with domes
2 Executioners
2 Nephilims with lascannons

Pretty simple, shoot the crap out of everything, the opponents will need to shoot the Impulsors (and the 5 man teams in side) and Nephilims to get at the speeders leaving the Executioners to do the heavy lifting.

Which kind of executioners you use, Smirrors, with plasma or with lasers?

Mine are built up as Heavy Laser Destroyers but theres definitely merit for the plasma as long as you are willing to potentially reroll shots which gets a little expensive when you want to use it alongside Weapons from the Dark Age.

Potentially 1 of each? Push the plasma up as a threat. 47" threat range is still decent.

Small update, ITC yesterday managed to come 4th with 2-1 record. Loss was to Imperial Fists running the infamous indirect fire and chap dreads list. He managed to destroy both Executioners Turn 1 but I was still able to claw back some points losing 35-18.

Win was guard which was brutal for opposition and final round against the undefeated Ravenguard player at the time. Managed to get a close win 28-26 due to him being ultra cagey.

Nephilms did good work. Without indirect fire they were able to get angles on units the others couldn't touch. They were pretty frail and outside of buffs their output drops a fair bit but you only need them to hit hard turn 1 and 2 (which is the limit to their buffs for the most part).

Impulsors (first time using) are a brilliant model. So much utility. They helped screen and also importantly would help grab secondaries, delivery intercessors effectively, bump shooting units and screen deepstrike and characters.

Executioners. Was good but definitely a risky investment if enemy is adept at killing vehicles.

 axisofentropy wrote:

 raverrn wrote:
Dark Angels Hellblasters are going to be terrifying, Re-rolls of 1 AND 3 damage on overcharge? Christ.

yeah I've just ordered some more.

I find that hilarious, on the 40k wiki it states that Dark Angels are apparently in possession of a surplus of Plasma weapons, it's even their speciality.

Next list I am going to try out the Deathwing Knights. I like them in theory but after adding all the points for their maximum effectiveness I think its going to be too much. So I have adjusted my shooty DA list above to accommodate what I think is the bare minimum to get it to work.

Battalion:
Sammael
Talonmaster Warlord
2 units of 5 Autobolt Intercessors and 1 unit of Scouts
2 Impulsors with Dome
1 Executioner
8 Deathwing Knights
Deathwing Ancient with Relic Banner
Ravenwing Apothecary

Airwing
3 Nephilim Jetfighters with Lascannons

A bit short on CP (starting 7CP) but just enough to get it to work i think.

Thoughts?

Have the new FAQs changed anything for us, I haven't actually put models to table since getting back into the swing of things here on Dakka but a few of the meta lists like close to what I already own so I'm interested to know what's changed for us.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Have the new FAQs changed anything for us, I haven't actually put models to table since getting back into the swing of things here on Dakka but a few of the meta lists like close to what I already own so I'm interested to know what's changed for us.

Devastator Doctrine now works only for the first round of the game
Tactical Doctrine now works automatically from round 2 and goes up to 4; round 5 must start Assault Doctrine
Adaptive Strategy stratagem is kaputt
The Dreadnought stratagem that reduced incoming damage by half now only reduces it by 1

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Have the new FAQs changed anything for us, I haven't actually put models to table since getting back into the swing of things here on Dakka but a few of the meta lists like close to what I already own so I'm interested to know what's changed for us.

Devastator Doctrine now works only for the first round of the game
Tactical Doctrine now works automatically from round 2 and goes up to 4; round 5 must start Assault Doctrine
Adaptive Strategy stratagem is kaputt
The Dreadnought stratagem that reduced incoming damage by half now only reduces it by 1

Close, the Tactical Doctrine is active Round 2 and Round 3 you can choose either Tactical or Assault. From Round 4 on you can only be in Assault.

As for the nerf in relation to DA, it means we can't build our lists around Heavy Weapons and just sit in the Devastator Doctrine all day outranging our opponent. This means we make a strong turn 1 strike hitting key enemy units and then try to leverage the Tactical Doctrine.

Talonmaster/ Sammael is still going to be strong because Sam gives rerolls anyway and if we really wanted to there is a WL trait that lets us activate a different doctrine for RW units within 6 I believe.

Personally I'm going to have to take a look at aggressors/chaplain combos and ravenwing bikers to be more mobile and also to leverage tactical doctrine.

Tactical doctrine is only t2 and 3, t4 onwards you have to be in assault doctrine.

• During the first battle round, the Devastator Doctrine is active for your army.
• During the second battle round, the Tactical Doctrine is active for your army.
• At the start of the third battle round, select either the Tactical Doctrine or Assault Doctrine: until the
end of that battle round, the doctrine you selected is active for your army.
• During the fourth and subsequent battle rounds, the Assault Doctrine is active for your army.

 Dr.Scheme wrote:


Talonmaster/ Sammael is still going to be strong because Sam gives rerolls anyway and if we really wanted to there is a WL trait that lets us activate a different doctrine for RW units within 6 I believe.

Yes Ravenwing Warlord trait is called Tactically Flexible. Prior to the FAQ this was basically useless but with FAQ you can definitely consider this as its quite unique (only UM can do it). But you will want to run this in conjunction with Impeccable Mobility. Its good when the game makes you make choices that actually matter

 Dr.Scheme wrote:


Personally I'm going to have to take a look at aggressors/chaplain combos and ravenwing bikers to be more mobile and also to leverage tactical doctrine.

How do you get Aggressors in proper range? If they go via a transport then Chaplain wont really work. If they walk around then they are likely going to shooting at only what opponents let them.