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Been thinking about getting an army that I can put together fast. An army doesn't get much faster than Necrons when it comes to painting and assembly so I'm casting about for useful, competitive armies. From what I've read around here, Immortals, Destroyers and the Deceiver a competitive army make so I thought about a flying circus style army. Immortals are god-awful expensive if you want to buy them in bulk. Destroyers aren't any better but at least there aren't as many of them. So here is the plan.

HQ
Destroyer Lord- res orb, warscythe, disruption field 185
Destroyer Lord- res orb, warscyhte, disruption field 185

10 Warriors- 180
10 Warriors- 180

5 Destroyers-250
5 Destroyers-250
5 Destroyers-250

3 Heavy Destroyers-195
3 Heavy Destroyers-195
2 Heavy Destroyers-130

Tiny number of models but fast fast fast. Destroyer Lord #1 stays with the H. Destroyers in the back field to help WBB them. DL #2 stays with the regular destroyers to WBB them, charge threats to tie them up and pounce on annoying vulnerable units. The Warriors pretty much stay in the back-field to claim objectives and advance once its safe to do so.

Does the flying circus work or is the number of Necron models and the lack of Monoliths make it too fragile.

On your part you seem to have covered all the angles you could, but a destroyer squad only has 3ish destroyers so no matter if there is a lord there, any serious concentration of fire will kill them all and the lord without any WBB, ive done it to my friend so many times.

The idea was to max out on the destroyers and h destroyers to make sure that there were models within 6" of each other. Wouldn't the destroyers be able to hug the back field and use range to stay out of the way of all but the shootiest armies (IG, SAFH Marines and such)? I may be way off base but I would think that the 12" move and shoot nature of the destroyers would make it difficult for most armies to get direct effective, overwhelming fires onto that many T5 targets - especially at 36".

Yes this can work. My only suggestion would be to change the HQ's. The meat of your army is toughness 5 and only str 10 weapons will deny the WBB so the res orb is not always usefull.

Your weaknesses are the warriors. Assault elements will try and engage them to make you get down to your faze number sooner. To protect them you need a Veil Lord. The Veil Lord will help keep them out of trouble while your skimmers fly around and shoot.

The Destroyers only weakness is to get assaulted and not matter how fast you fly, there is still only so much space on the table. To help the Destroyers you need a Destroyer Lord with some close combat umph. Destroyer Lord with the Warsythe and Phase Shifter is your best bet. He can keep up with the fast movers and make assaulting a unit very painful.

Hmm, you are all over the place with your Lords. Warscythe and Disruption fields? My advice is to take just one Lord, and give him a Veil. As mentioned previously, there is no need for an Orb with t5 troops, so use your Lord to Veil your warriors. This should save you enough points to get something nice, maybe take that last Heavy D and/or get another unit of 10 warriors.

No one is going to be assaulting your jetbikers as long as you are careful, just back up 12" and shoot down anything that tries.

I've used variations on this list a couple of times, it lives or dies by how well you concentrate your Circus on a portion of the enemies list. Make sure never to get within 24" of the enemy, use terrain to screen portions of their forces from your Circus, and it can be a great list.

remember also the necron gauss weapon special rule-you auto glance anything on an AP roll of a 6+

 

and auto wound anything on a wound roll of 6+ regaurdless of T or AV-more shots(regular destroyers) are your friend.

the heavy destroyers- the up side is that they have range higher strength  but are a bit redundant  and with the gauss rule,  only 1 shot and 3 man squads  its alot of points to sink into a few models that you can spend elseware.

 

in the end its your army to build as you like, and it does have theme/style.  

The heavy destroyers are vital as they can take out monsters much easier than normal destroyers.

Personally, i would just take two lords with warscythes.

If you're going to take two destroyer lords, take the orbs away and give them phase shifters. the 4+ invulnerable, coupled with T6 and a warscythe make the pair of them a really mean assault unit.

I think a deceiver would be a better choice here than a veil lord, since if you play carefully with your warriors they'll be very safe. Just walk them 6" away from anything every turn and shoot with them only when it's not going to cost you an assault or return fire.

But yes. I think this list can work just fine. I don't think it's necessarily as good as the immortal heavy list though.

It's not as good as the immortal heavy list against everything except Nidzilla.

From my own experience, this list could take out Nidzilla, could probably handle Mech Eldar, but would struggle with Shooty Marines. Deepstriking Assault Cannons and lots of singular speeder squadrons make it very easy to coordinate fire into destroyer/heavy destroyer units and wipe out a single necron type per turn. It would not be pretty.

The list has enough mobility to isolate small portions of the marine army and pound them into the ground. If the mission is anything but kill the other guy the necrons could pull it off.
If the mission is kill the other guy...the necrons are hosed.

I disagree. Marines are one of Necrons' best opponents. They just don't shoot enough to win.

The question is more "is there terrain on the board" than "is the mission anything but kill."

For necrons, all missions are kill missions, since the opponent can always phase you out.

Using my own SAFH Marine list, it's really easy to just pound Necrons, even with Terrain.

Deployed properly and knowing what units to use to kill specific units of Necrons and in what order will mean that the Marines can take down the Necrons.

Deepstriking Termies go after Destroyers first, Destroyers of both types move in groups due to WBB purposes, if you can get two termy squads in on them, you can focus enough fire to do the job. If that's not enough, every Marine list I've seen keeps at least two squads of speeders. These will generally pop out and shoot something before dying. You make sure you coordinate their being exposed is to concentrate fire on a necron unit type in one area to deny WBB's.

Sure at 2k he's running 15 destroyers and 8 Heavies, but really at 1500 or 1750 the numbers aren't that high, and when you have enough shots and can deepstrike right in, it's not that hard to kill T5 3+ Save models. Heck one Speeder alone can kill two of them in a single go with some good rolls, at least one on average.

All it takes is for the Marine player to know what units to focus on killing first and moving from there.

I concur with Longshot.

VB, it isn't really easy to "just pound" Necrons. Maybe you've found it so, but with a good general at the helm a Necron list is a competitive thing. Your experience might just be due to your skill.

The math doesn't work on the tactics you are proposing. A deep striking group of 5 Terminators with 2 assault cannons will knock down 2 Destroyers, one will stand up. Even if you could guarantee that 3 of the groups came in at once, they couldn't get all 15 Circus members, or even all 8 Heavy D's.

Landspeeders will never make their points back against Necrons, ever. They will knock down one or two necrons each, half will stand up. Even if the crons were heavy D's (the most expensive thing they can get) and they stayed down they weren't as expensive as the Landspeeders, who will evaporate in the face of Gauss fire from any Necron unit.

I'll preface this with what I've done for test games when I was going to be able to attend the Baltimore GT with my SAFH Marines, it's about the same as what I took to Baltimore games day with just another unit of terminators but a Commander swapped in instead of the chappy:

Master Commander, PW, Combat Shield
5 Termies, 2 Cannons
5 Termies, 2 Cannons
5 Termies, 2 Cannons
6 Man Las/Plas
6 Man Las/Plas
6 Man Las/Plas
6 Man Las/Plas
5 Man Las/Plas
8 Assault Marines, Vet w/ PF
Tornado
Tornado

At 1750 I've faced off against destroyer heavy Necrons, which I think if you scale down this 2k point list, you're looking at probably at max:

Lord w/ Veil+Orb
20 Warriors
3x 4 Destroyers
3x3 Heavy Destroyers

Taking down this list is simply a matter of deploying well. Assuming you can get at least 1 or two firelanes you can force the Necrons to eat return fire by engaging you. The Necrons will travel in clusters, they have to for WBB. Main idea is to drop all the Heavy Destroyers, deepstriking termies should manage to pull that off, if you can get two squads and coordinate the speeders to pop out at the right time, this is entirely doable.

If you can get a good volley off at them, you can put them down.

The biggest downside is that after downing the Heavies, the regular destroyers run out of range and start firing, and you have to try and catch them.

On second though, it could be harder than I'm used to. Most of my games vs. Necrons "competitively" were similar to this, but they had a lith instead of maxing on heavy D's, so were a LOT easier to take out as Las/Plas kills liths, and termies kill the regular destroyers. You basically have to deploy to force them into having to be exposed to engage you, but that's how you play the a*$%&*) marine builds. Sometimes the terrain makes doing that hard, but many times you can find a way to deploy like a real **** and force them into bad situations.

I think the game would be heavily terrain dependent. If you can get and keep good 48" fire lanes for the game to the point where your las/plas squads can significantly contribute to the kills, then yes, SAFH marines take down this list because of the ~3.5 dead destroyers a turn from lascannon beams. Granted, 25 destroyers are a hard thing to hide but if I can minimize return fire from your gun line, then I may have a chance.

Once you deepstrike, you are basically moving at 6" a turn wheras my army is basically moving at 12" a turn. Another key will be how well your deepstriking goes. If you come in en-mass, then I think I will be in for a rough ride. If you come in piece-meal, I will own you.

At 1500 points I think you have the advantage. At 1750, I think it is a lot more of a toss up since all I'm losing is basically one lord and a destroyer or two.

It is not simply a crap shoot as you make it out to be. I have more lascannons and more heavy-bolter autocannon analogues than you do. What I don't have is the ablative wounds that you have. First Turn rolls and reserve rolls would be vital in this game along with objectives and terrain.

Necron staying power comes from the Monolith, it's also VITAL for extrcating locked units from CC.  An essential unit, it is true that heavy destroyers are important for the good AP killing power, but playing Necrons with no Monolith is foolish.  I suggest 2 at a minimum, with a heavy destroyer squad.

The claim will be made that this hurts the phase out number and that is true but it is easily controllable by hiding a min phase out number squad of warriors anywhere.

PLAY MONOLITHS

See my avatar for my response to Augustus' utterly uninformed post.

Posted By Sgt_Scruffy on 10/09/2007 1:01 PM
I think the game would be heavily terrain dependent. If you can get and keep good 48" fire lanes for the game to the point where your las/plas squads can significantly contribute to the kills, then yes, SAFH marines take down this list because of the ~3.5 dead destroyers a turn from lascannon beams. Granted, 25 destroyers are a hard thing to hide but if I can minimize return fire from your gun line, then I may have a chance.

Once you deepstrike, you are basically moving at 6" a turn wheras my army is basically moving at 12" a turn. Another key will be how well your deepstriking goes. If you come in en-mass, then I think I will be in for a rough ride. If you come in piece-meal, I will own you.

At 1500 points I think you have the advantage. At 1750, I think it is a lot more of a toss up since all I'm losing is basically one lord and a destroyer or two.

It is not simply a crap shoot as you make it out to be. I have more lascannons and more heavy-bolter autocannon analogues than you do. What I don't have is the ablative wounds that you have. First Turn rolls and reserve rolls would be vital in this game along with objectives and terrain.

The more I consider it as both a Necron player and opponent, the more I'm beginning to agree with you.  It's not that easy and you're right it's terrain dependent and it's also reserve dependent. 

Like I said, target priority one is the heavy destroyers, easiest to eliminate out of all of them.  Only problem I can see is that maybe the marine player can get lucky.  One lascannon shot from a tac squad, down goes the Heavy D - you can fail that LD10 check.  Course that's less likely to happen than a Falcon going down, but if two in a squad go down, now you're at LD9.  It's rare, but I've had it happen to me as a Necron player and I've had it happen to me as a Necron opponent.  Still it's not a solid idea to base your tactics on beating an army on them failing LD10 or LD9 tests.

I've seen a similar list to what you posted at 1750 which had the Deciever and only 6 Heavy Destroyers (3x2) with 10 regular Destroyers (2x5) and the Obligatory Warriors.  It was interesting for sure, but I do like the appeal of just lots of Heavy Destroyers and going nuts with it.  Very good stuff.

I still think that vs. the SAFH Marine build it could struggle for all the given reasons, but you're right that it's probably going to be a bit harder than I initially thought since most of my experience was in taking out lists with say 12 destroyers and 4 Heavies + Lith. 

This list certainly will answer the generic Nidzilla lists, especially ones without Gaunt hordes in tow.  And its still competent enough to handle just about any other army out there.

Posted By 40kenthusiast on 10/09/2007 10:44 AM
The math doesn't work on the tactics you are proposing. A deep striking group of 5 Terminators with 2 assault cannons will knock down 2 Destroyers, one will stand up.

 

2.81 for the termie squad...Close enough to 3 to stand a very good chance of taking out all 3 members of the heavy destroyer squad.

The key I found when playing against destroyer heavy lists is to coordinate fire from speeders, which are great at zooming from cover to cover spot, until it's time to come out and unload.

The problem that min/max lists like the one I used to use pose to Necrons is that they tend to take bigger squads rather than smaller ones due to the nature of the army. That works great for focus firing, which is what they do, but it's not so great when having to deal with target saturation.

I throw down two termy squads in a good deepstrike roll on the 2nd or 3rd turn and pop out speeders, I'm going to hit one unit type with all that and with the Heavy's they could all go away, which is a big deal.

Now with this list, you'd have the regular destroyers step up to task and start plinking down speeders, but then you're not focus firing and it buys my termies time to maneuver, and it's taking heat off the Las/Plas squads and possibly the assault squad. With too many targets and no ability to really split fire where needed, if the Marine player knows how to fight Necrons (which is NOT as common as you'd think), then it can be hard.

That all said, things can so go the Necron players way due to a number of factors: Escalation and forcing the Marine player to go first; heavy terrain that make it hard to concentrate static fire for support. Those two things can really put the kabosh on the Marine list.

EDIT: I'd also like to take this opportunity to state that Sgt. Scruffy is a horrible member of the site because now he's making me consider buying 3-6 more Heavy Destroyers.  THANKS PAL.

The Tzeentch flying circus does not work as well in 40K because of the lack of facing rules. The fact that all 40K models have 360 LOS and fields of fire make it difficult to survive the short range maneuvering necessary for this type of army to work. This is why Eldar Jetbikes and Crisis suits are effective. They have the ability to move after firing, moving outside of the 360 LOS.
This list is pretty cool, but it probably isn't going to be fun as it seems very 'paper-rock-scissors'. You are gonna just lose a portion of games, but you are gonna wreck a lot of people too.

Posted By DarkHellion on 10/09/2007 8:46 PM
Tzeentch flying circus

I didn't know there was such a thing...

It isn't a 40k thing.

I play against someone who plays the 3x 5 destroyer list, and it's very difficult to deal with. In most cases, he's able to mass all three destroyer squads on one or two enemy squads, and it's very effective. Adding the heavy destroyers into the mix would fill one of his big holes (dealing with 2+ saves consistently), and I can see him doing some good damage with it.

The two things I would recommend considering changing are (just as others have said) changing the wargear on your lord (d. body, phase shifter, warscythe, and perhaps phylactery), and then dropping the other lord and 1 or 2 heavy destroyers in favor of the deceiver. Adding the deceiver into the mix puts a whole new perspective to the game. It makes assaulting the warriors a bit more problematic (keep them within 12" of the deceiver) as well as deep striking the terminators (is it really worth it to deep strike 5 terminators in, kill 2 heavy destroyers, and then lose them to the deceiver?) It won't make things automatic, but it will certainly make a space marine player think a little bit. (Oh, and the redeployment power that the deceiver brings will help things a bit.)

There's no doubt in my mind that the flying circus is a decent army. The low necron count will make things a bit challenging, but the amount of firepower and the mobility of the list go a long way to alleviate those weaknesses.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/09/2007 6:20 PM
EDIT: I'd also like to take this opportunity to state that Sgt. Scruffy is a horrible member of the site because now he's making me consider buying 3-6 more Heavy Destroyers.  THANKS PAL.

I'm a horrible person as well, VB, not just a horrible member of the site. You're welcome.

In other news, In the afore-mentioned SAFH vs. Flying Circus scenario, would it be wise to turbo-boost your entire jetbike horde at the end turn 1-2 right before the Terminators drop? Not only could you get that tasty invulnerable save for all your expensive nasties, but you could also pull a refused flank on a static gunline (METT-T dependent).

Oh.. and METT-T stands for Mission, Enemy, Terrain, Troops, and Time. Army slang.

>Longshot: See my avatar for my response to Augustus' utterly uninformed post.

Yes, ok and you are the genius who suggested removing rez orbs? Obviously you don't know.

PLAY MONOLITHS

Posted By Augustus on 10/12/2007 9:59 AM

>Longshot: See my avatar for my response to Augustus' utterly uninformed post.

Yes, ok and you are the genius who suggested removing rez orbs? Obviously you don't know.

PLAY MONOLITHS

You don't really need rez orbs on T5 guys who move 12". If you get into assault with a squad of destroyers an orb isn't going to save you.

Monoliths are a terrible choice for any other than a gimmick army. Yes, 2-3 monoliths is an effective choice. Not so much when the point of your list is to have lots of 12" moving guys with guns, and you really want some antitank/ap2 guns.

The problem with monoliths, particularly in a list with a low model count, is that it drives your model count lower and exposes you even more to early death with a lucky turn of shooting.

You're clueless and have very little idea about how necrons work if you think this sort of list needs monoliths in any way. Orbs are questionable, but I can think of some much better ways to spend 40 points on a Lord meant for assault prevention.

You don't really need rez orbs on T5 guys who move 12". If you get into assault with a squad of destroyers an orb isn't going to save you.

Wrong. The orb and the monolith are going to save you, because (A) the Orb lets you get WBB roles even vs power weapons, and (B) you can get the squad out of Melee with a monolith port.

Monoliths are a terrible choice for any other than a gimmick army. Yes, 2-3 monoliths is an effective choice. Not so much when the point of your list is to have lots of 12" moving guys with guns, and you really want some antitank/ap2 guns.

You can do both, use all the destroyers and have 2 monoliths.

The problem with monoliths, particularly in a list with a low model count, is that it drives your model count lower and exposes you even more to early death with a lucky turn of shooting.

Not really becuase you get all the WBB re-rolls all the time (This nullifies low model count).  Plus mobility is multiplied greatly by the monolith teleport.

You're clueless and have very little idea about how necrons work if you think this sort of list needs monoliths in any way.

I don't like you either! NEENER! ? Every list needs Monoliths, it's what Necrons have.

Orbs are questionable,

Uh what? You're clueless, Orbs are like smoke launchers and extra armor on imperial rhinos, they might as well be permanently modeled on the default kit because not playing them is absurd.

...but I can think of some much better ways to spend 40 points on a Lord meant for assault prevention.

The best Necron lord is the destroyer lord with the Warscythe.  It's incredible.  I also play the 4+ save.

One has to understand the rez orb is a force multiplier, the monolith is a force multiplier.  You buy them not because of the destruction they cause but because of how much better they make the rest of the army.  Let me spell it out for the studio audience:

MONOLITH AND REZ ORB = 75% of all enemy attacks are NULLIFIED!

Furthermore you get the ability to leave CC at will (with the monolith), which is the only viable way to phase out necrons in the first place. And you get the ability to move your squads around all over the table, incredible for taking quadrants or mission based objectives.

Augustus- its a flying circus army. Hence, no monolith. The entire theme of the army is to cram as many destroyers into the list as possible. You can't do that if you are taking monoliths. In addition, a monlith means I can take 4.7 fewer destroyers. In a list that is already necron-model light as is, that makes phase out that much easier to attain. You now also have a huge model that is going to eat every lascannon/Venom cannon/railgun in the opposing army and get blown out of the sky.

A monolith or two in a traditional lord/immortal/warrior army makes sense because it increases the army's mobility and survivability. In an army that wants to stay 36" away and can already move 12" (or turboboost) a turn, it's utility is greatly reduced.

I do agree that a res orb is a nice idea and I might think about putting one in, but a monolith is a points-sink and a target in this sort of army.

This is what I'm thinking of at 1750
Destroyer Lord - warscythe,phase shifter 170

20 Warriors- 360
2x5 Destroyers- 500
1x4 Destroyers- 200
2x3 H Destroyers- 390
1x2 H Destroyers- 130

43 Necron Models with a phase out of 11. 8 lascannon analogues and 14 "heavy bolters" The lord is a T6! 3+/4++ save monster who ignores all saves and hits at S5 (+2D6 against vehicles). If it were a 2000 point force, I'd add another one and use the remaining 80 points for a 9th H destroyer.

I would prefer something like this personally. It is for 1500pts tho.

Lord, Orb, Veil 200
25 Immortals 700
20 Warriors 360
Monolith 235

I think Crons benefit from having large squads when they field liths/veils as they work irrespective of squad size.